Asking for friends: Do they have a chance in medicine?

Started by doctor in da makin
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doctor in da makin

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7+ Year Member
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I know even though I just said that I'm not talking about me, there are some out there that will think I am lying. I don't care what people online who I'll never know or meet think about me.

I have these two good friends in college and to say the least, they are not good students. One had to attend a community college for 3 years and then only got accepted to a low-tier 4 year college.

The other one was on academic probation once, but has been "clean" for almost 2 years now. He has almost 30 credits worth of failed courses. Most of the retakes, if not all, were Cs.

I don't know their exact GPAs, but it is definitely below 3.0, more likely it is around 2.6 or so. They both have one semester left to graduate.

They seem to have given up on MD schools, but now are looking at PA schools. They don't understand that PA schools are no joke; they just see the minimums and think they have a chance.

They insist that they will be fine since they have hundreds of volunteering hours each, but that's not close to enough, right?

What would they have to do to get into PA schools?
 
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Mad Jack said:
The first one could go DO if their GPA wss acceptable. The second one is probably boned all around.
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Its sad because they do have hope, but nobody is willing to give it to them straight out.

They both have similar GPAs, though, so are they both boned?

The second one had an upward trend, for sure. It was probable close to a 3.0 these last two years, but the first two were around a 2.0
 
So they both have a 3.0? Yeah, that won't cut it anywhere. Retake anything below a B, try to get As on the retakes, etc. Second guy stands a chance, but those Cs aren't going to cut it.
 
Mad Jack said:
So they both have a 3.0? Yeah, that won't cut it anywhere. Retake anything below a B, try to get As on the retakes, etc. Second guy stands a chance, but those Cs aren't going to cut it.
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But you just said the second one was boned?

They both have an overall of 2.6, BUT the second one had a GPA of around 3.0 the last two years.

Not sure about the upward trend of the first one
 
doctor in da makin said:
But you just said the second one was boned?

They both have an overall of 2.6, BUT the second one had a GPA of around 3.0 the last two years.

Not sure about the upward trend of the first one
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Unless they can get their cGPAs over 3.0, there is zero chance for either of them. Even then, their chances would be very low. The average incoming students at even the lowest tier DO schools have 3.3-3.4 GPAs and vurtually all schools screen out anyone below a 3.0 (most screen higher than this, usually 3.3 or 3.2, though some have special rules that only consider the most recent two or three years). Goro has the reinvention schools listed in another thread, but even those would require muuuuch better performance than you are describing.

I don't know any PA school that will even touch someone with a cGPA less than 3.0, and even then, you'd better have some groundbreaking research or a graduate degree or something.
 
Mad Jack said:
Unless they can get their cGPAs over 3.0, there is zero chance for either of them. Even then, their chances would be very low. The average incoming students at even the lowest tier DO schools have 3.3-3.4 GPAs and vurtually all schools screen out anyone below a 3.0 (most screen higher than this, usually 3.3 or 3.2, though some have special rules that only consider the most recent two or three years). Goro has the reinvention schools listed in another thread, but even those would require muuuuch better performance than you are describing.

I don't know any PA school that will even touch someone with a cGPA less than 3.0, and even then, you'd better have some groundbreaking research or a graduate degree or something.
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Isn't shadowing a PA a requirement as well? They haven't done that yet.

They seem to really be banking on their volunteering hours to save them. Is it pointless at this point for them to continue volunteering?
 
Not to be blunt, but I mean if someone retook a class and got C's, maybe medicine is not for them. They should realize that there's more reasons that medical school is hard to get into besides the fact that they could be handling someone's lives one day. If they can't get even a B in Pre req's, how are they supposed to complete difficult med school coursework? If you can't do well on the MCAT, how are you going to pass the USMLE exams? Now onto your point about PA school. Do you honestly think that PA school is easy? Once you've screwed up to this point, you just have to accept the ugly truth. Choose a different career. Otherwise, you are going to be spending years improving your record. Time is not unlimited.

Good luck.
 
Stop looking for validation here. It will not change anything. Tell them outright the truth, and as Goro above mentioned, these programs require a lot of volunteer/clinical experience that your friends clearly do not have. I would stop whining about this, nobody on SDN can help them. A <3.0 gpa will not get them in anywhere, in pretty much all health careers.
 
Tired said:
Or you could, you know, be a friend and not offer dream-crushing unsolicited advice based on your assessment-from-a-distance of their apparent dedication and capabilities.
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Trust me, I know them well. And if you knew them, this situation they are in is something they had coming.

I don't want to be a dreamcrusher, but I think someone should just tell them they have no chance before it's too late.
 
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Tired said:
It seems like you want to be the person to fill that role.

You didn't need backup from teh interwebz for that.
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Since nobody else will tell them, I have to. I just wanted to make sure that they had no chance. Adding to what I said before, they have been volunteering since high school, but haven't focused on their grades
 
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ComputerGuy365 said:
Stop looking for validation here. It will not change anything. Tell them outright the truth, and as Goro above mentioned, these programs require a lot of volunteer/clinical experience that your friends clearly do not have. I would stop whining about this, nobody on SDN can help them. A <3.0 gpa will not get them in anywhere, in pretty much all health careers.
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Not sure why you think I'm whining, but I am only asking because when I see them studying for their GREs, I feel bad since no matter how much they study, it will go to waste since their GPAs are too low.

I wanted to make sure that their upward trend, gre score, and volunteering still wouldn't make a difference before telling them the truth.

Unfortunately sometimes the truth can hurt.
 
You do realize that they may probably not listen to you, and like many, if not most people, they will have to learn the hard way? And maybe one of them will figure it out, and make some kind of comeback, like Mad Jack was talking about.
 
doctor in da makin said:
Not sure why you think I'm whining, but I am only asking because when I see them studying for their GREs, I feel bad since no matter how much they study, it will go to waste since their GPAs are too low.

I wanted to make sure that their upward trend, gre score, and volunteering still wouldn't make a difference before telling them the truth.

Unfortunately sometimes the truth can hurt.
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How do you have so much power over them?
 
Tired said:
Actually you don't. You could just be a friend. And it's not like you have an acceptance in hand, so I'm not sure why they would listen to you anyway.
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That's why I'm asking if they had a chance here on SDN since you guys know what you're talking about.

You're right, I probably won't tell them, but then they will learn the hard way.
 
doctor in da makin said:
That's why I'm asking if they had a chance here on SDN since you guys know what you're talking about.

You're right, I probably won't tell them, but then they will learn the hard way.
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I thought you were being a jerk to go crush their dreams, but after all this effort of making the thread and since you've definitely confirmed they won't get in, now I think you're a lousy friend for not telling them.

Well, at least when they are standing in a pile of rejection letters, you can be there with a sweet, sweet: "I told you you'd never get in."
 
Tired said:
Whole-heartedly disagree. The posted assessment of their GPA and abilities is solely based on the observation of a friend. He has no idea what the GRE scores will turn out to be. All his observations are colored by the personal relationship. Part of friendship is respecting and supporting friends' decisions, even if they seem ill-advised. He's not their dad.
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I was more just poking fun at his whole sentiment that seems to be wanting to see their dreams crushed--whether it be from him or reality--than trying to give actual advice.
 
Donald Juan said:
I was more just poking fun at his whole sentiment that seems to be wanting to see their dreams crushed--whether it be from him or reality--than trying to give actual advice.
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Tired said:
Ah, I get it now. 😀

I tend to agree. But even giving him the benefit of the doubt, it seems more likely that he will end some friendships than that his advice will have any beneficial effect.
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I have a confession. We really aren't good friends, but I know them very well and see them quite often.

I also know now that if they made an SDN account and asked about their chances, they would certainly get ripped to shreds, so they should keep off this site.
 
Tired said:
That makes a little more sense.

I dunno, people on SDN tend to be more tactful when people ask about their own situation. When it's a "friend" everyone just lets loose.
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SDN can be pretty blunt, which is a good thing. In person, you can't tell your friend they have a low chance of getting accepted for whatever reason (low grades, insufficient clinical experience, etc.). They aren't going to take kindly to it.

I have a friend who just applied and has a 3.62 cGPA/3.48 sGPA/3.75 gGPA and 30 MCAT and her list of ~25 schools was 80% reaches (Yale, Stanford, Northwestern, Cornell, UCSF, etc.). No DO schools. I simply wished her the best of luck.
 
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What's with your superiority complex?

Here is a bit of honesty for you: you are not better than anyone else.

doctor in da makin said:
I just had to share this after hearing this.

"Everyone fails Orgo at least once so its so no big deal"

That was their explanation for failing Organic Chemistry 1 and (probably Orgo 2) this summer
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Don't give unsolicited advice and allow them to make their own mistakes. They seem to be the type to ignore sound advice, so the only way they'll truly learn is to get a wall full of rejections.

You can't undo decades of bad parenting, advising, and other possible environmental influences.

What you could do as their friend is just emotionally support them through the ordeal. Or you know, don't. You're not obligated to do anything for them.

I was in a similar position as yours one time and was largely ignored. Now both peeps are unemployed graduates loafing around in their parent's place, and I have since severed ties.
 
doctor in da makin said:
I have a confession. We really aren't good friends, but I know them very well and see them quite often.

I also know now that if they made an SDN account and asked about their chances, they would certainly get ripped to shreds, so they should keep off this site.
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If they are your friends and/or you want a supportive person: show them how to be better students and help them understand how they can be successful.

If they are not your friends: move on.

I like the old adage, "if you don't have anything positive to say, don't say anything." It is not your place to be offering negative and unsolicited advice, which is essentially a form of bullying and is always a bad move.
 
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Admittedly, I do have some personal reasons for wanting to see karma get back at them. I may have been too harsh on them via SDN, so I think the best thing is to stop replying to this thread starting now. I'll just advise them to make an SDN account, so you guys can crush their dreams instead
Lastly, thanks for the advice, ComputerGuy365, I'll let them know for next year.
 
Let them make their own mistakes.. especially if you're not even close friends with them. It's much more important to focus on your own progress in your chosen route.

I've heard the rule of thumb to be competitive for PA schools is 1000 clinical hours. Not sure if that's just the culture I come from (UCLA / UC students) or a very well-known thing.
 
doctor in da makin said:
Admittedly, I do have some personal reasons for wanting to see karma get back at them. I may have been too harsh on them via SDN, so I think the best thing is to stop replying to this thread starting now. I'll just advise them to make an SDN account, so you guys can crush their dreams instead
Lastly, thanks for the advice, ComputerGuy365, I'll let them know for next year.
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With all due respect, this is a poor and inhumane line of thought. Especially for one who wants to become a doctor. You should try and help them, not bask in their failure.
 
doctor in da makin said:
Admittedly, I do have some personal reasons for wanting to see karma get back at them. I may have been too harsh on them via SDN, so I think the best thing is to stop replying to this thread starting now. I'll just advise them to make an SDN account, so you guys can crush their dreams instead
Lastly, thanks for the advice, ComputerGuy365, I'll let them know for next year.
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No problem. Let them know that understanding why and how each reaction happens is important. If they memorize every last detail and every last arrow they will find themselves very confused. They have to understand it.
 
doctor in da makin said:
I just had to share this after hearing this.

"Everyone fails Orgo at least once so its so no big deal"

That was their explanation for failing Organic Chemistry 1 and (probably Orgo 2) this summer
Click to expand...

I personally haven't taken orgo, but I have self studied it quite a bit. It's honestly just practice, and making sure you understand the mechanisms. Anybody who says orgo is hard is lying. That's just an excuse that people use to try to justify a bad grade.
 
doctor in da makin said:
Admittedly, I do have some personal reasons for wanting to see karma get back at them. I may have been too harsh on them via SDN, so I think the best thing is to stop replying to this thread starting now. I'll just advise them to make an SDN account, so you guys can crush their dreams instead
Lastly, thanks for the advice, ComputerGuy365, I'll let them know for next year.
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To answer your question, Yes, there is a chance.

According to the figures here:
https://www.aamc.org/download/321508/data/factstable24.pdf
There are ~1000 students who got in with <3.0 out of 61,005 (from 2012-2014). Let's say there's a 1/61 chance.

I'm an optimist though. Anything can happen 😉
 
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