Aspiring Heart Surgeon

[wingedhelmet]

For the past three years I have worked closely with heart surgeons and I hope to become one some day. Doing some research, I've found out that almost all fellowships to be trained as one are MD programs. Therefore I'll have to do an MD general surgery residency. My questions is, how difficult is it to obtain one of these residencies as DO?

P.S. I do realize that there are DO fellowships that train heart surgeons, but there are very few of them compared to the 80-90 MD programs, so an MD residency gives me the best shot at acceptance.

 

[Bnmakr1]

for the past three years i have worked closely with heart surgeons and i hope to become one some day. Doing some research, i've found out that almost all fellowships to be trained as one are md programs. Therefore i'll have to do an md general surgery residency. My questions is, how difficult is it to obtain one of these residencies as do?

P.s. I do realize that there are do fellowships that train heart surgeons, but there are very few of them compared to the 80-90 md programs, so an md residency gives me the best shot at acceptance.

100% or 0%. Depends in who you ask. I'm leaning towards 0%.

 

[wingedhelmet]

100%.

What does that mean? I know that it's certainly feasible to be accepted to an MD general surgery residency, but is it much more difficult to do as DO vs an MD?

 

[darklabel]

What does that mean? I know that it's certainly feasible to be accepted to an MD general surgery residency, but is it much more difficult to do as DO vs an MD?

Here are some numbers on the match results, have a blast:

http://www.nrmp.org/data/resultsanddata2012.pdf

 

[Dr Turkelton]

Here are some numbers on the match results, have a blast:

http://www.nrmp.org/data/resultsanddata2012.pdf

According this, the average US IMG has a much better chance at matching into quite a few specialties than DO's

Surgery:
6.5% of USIMG match into it
3% of DO's

Internal Med:
20% DO
28% USIMG

In almost all the joint Residencies (Peds-IM for example), as well as Neurosurg, ENT and Ortho, American foreign grads do better than DO's. DO's are heavily favoured in Peds and FM and OBGYN.

Aren't these stats a bit concerning for anyone else considering DO schools that doesn't want to be pushed into OBGYN or Family practice? That USIMG's have more than twice the chance of matching into surgery than DO's? I'm considering DO and Caribbean schools and stats like this confuse me, especially because I want the option of going into surgery in the future . And this is for all the USIMGs, not just the ones from top few Caribbean schools.

 

[Ost3oclast]

According this, the average US IMG has a much better chance at matching into quite a few specialties than DO's

Surgery:
6.5% of USIMG match into it
3% of DO's

Internal Med:
20% DO
28% USIMG

In almost all the joint Residencies (Peds-IM for example), as well as Neurosurg, ENT and Ortho, American foreign grads do better than DO's. DO's are heavily favoured in Peds and FM and OBGYN.

Aren't these stats a bit concerning for anyone else considering DO schools that doesn't want to be pushed into OBGYN or Family practice? That USIMG's have more than twice the chance of matching into surgery than DO's? I'm considering DO and Caribbean schools and stats like this confuse me, especially because I want the option of going into surgery in the future . And this is for all the USIMGs, not just the ones from top few Caribbean schools.

Are you taking into consideration the AOA surg matches for osteo students?

 

[cabinbuilder]

For the past three years I have worked closely with heart surgeons and I hope to become one some day. Doing some research, I've found out that almost all fellowships to be trained as one are MD programs. Therefore I'll have to do an MD general surgery residency. My questions is, how difficult is it to obtain one of these residencies as DO?

P.S. I do realize that there are DO fellowships that train heart surgeons, but there are very few of them compared to the 80-90 MD programs, so an MD residency gives me the best shot at acceptance.

DO not kid yourself. If you want to be a cardiac surgeon, go to MD school. Don't try to be that "one" who makes it out of DO school. You will be fooling yourself.

 

[KinesiologyNerd]

According this, the average US IMG has a much better chance at matching into quite a few specialties than DO's

Surgery:
6.5% of USIMG match into it
3% of DO's

Internal Med:
20% DO
28% USIMG

In almost all the joint Residencies (Peds-IM for example), as well as Neurosurg, ENT and Ortho, American foreign grads do better than DO's. DO's are heavily favoured in Peds and FM and OBGYN.

Aren't these stats a bit concerning for anyone else considering DO schools that doesn't want to be pushed into OBGYN or Family practice? That USIMG's have more than twice the chance of matching into surgery than DO's? I'm considering DO and Caribbean schools and stats like this confuse me, especially because I want the option of going into surgery in the future . And this is for all the USIMGs, not just the ones from top few Caribbean schools.

The data you're citing is only the total DO and total IMG that matched surgery or whatever. It doesn't speak to the percentage of applicants who ranked surgery that matched into surgery. Overall DO's match ~74% and IMG ~49%. So yeah, I'll take my chances as a DO grad all day long.

This is not to mention all of the surgery spots available in the DO match that aren't open to MD's.

 

[Dr Turkelton]

Are you taking into consideration the AOA surg matches for osteo students?

No because I assumed (maybe mistakenly) that AOA residencies are filled predominantly by people who couldn't match into an MD surg program. But if you do consider them:

using

http://www.natmatch.com/aoairp/stats/2012sklstats.html
http://www.natmatch.com/aoairp/stats/2012sklstats.html

Out of 2662 members applying for the AOA match, 108 people matched into general surgery. A rate of 4%, still significantly below the USIMG rate. for Internal med it is 14%. Hell at TOUROCOM 17% of people applying to AOA residencies did not match anywhere. Someone else feel free to double check these numbers.

The data you're citing is only the total DO and total IMG that matched surgery or whatever. It doesn't speak to the percentage of applicants who ranked surgery that matched into surgery. Overall DO's match ~74% and IMG ~49%. So yeah, I'll take my chances as a DO grad all day long.

This is not to mention all of the surgery spots available in the DO match that aren't open to MD's.

The published match rate for people who graduate from SGU is 74 or 80% depending how you look at it. I got the numbers from a letter sent out to SGU students :

"The NRMP does not publish data on each individual international medical school. However, we did ask them to calculate the SGU match rate for our US citizen 2009 graduates. They responded to us and stated that "74.5% matched to a first year position and your overall match rate is 80.1%." (The "overall" included those that matched to a PGY-2 position, e.g. neurology but not a preliminary PGY-1.) "



This is NOT meant to be a DO vs carib pissing match. I am still really considering a DO school and will probably not end up in the carribean. However I find that the match placements from DO schools are often glossed over when in fact it should be a point of serious discussion, especially for those considering specialties other than OBGYN and FM.

 

[GopherMD]

The only percentages you need to know:

99% of all DOs will match into a residency (AOA or ACGME)

Less than 49% of USIMGs will match into a residency.

It will only get worse for USIMGs down the road with the AOA-ACGME merger and more medical schools opening up.

 

[kindasorta]

You should also know that as a heart surgeon you'll have a hard time finding a job, and if you do, it'll be in the 150k range.

http://ats.ctsnetjournals.org/cgi/content/full/89/6/1853

 

[Ost3oclast]

No because I assumed (maybe mistakenly) that AOA residencies are filled predominantly by people who couldn't match into an MD surg program. But if you do consider them:

using

http://www.natmatch.com/aoairp/stats/2012sklstats.html
http://www.natmatch.com/aoairp/stats/2012sklstats.html

Out of 2662 members applying for the AOA match, 108 people matched into general surgery. A rate of 4%, still significantly below the USIMG rate. for Internal med it is 14%. Hell at TOUROCOM 17% of people applying to AOA residencies did not match anywhere. Someone else feel free to double check these numbers.



The published match rate for people who graduate from SGU is 74 or 80% depending how you look at it. I got the numbers from a letter sent out to SGU students :

"The NRMP does not publish data on each individual international medical school. However, we did ask them to calculate the SGU match rate for our US citizen 2009 graduates. They responded to us and stated that "74.5% matched to a first year position and your overall match rate is 80.1%." (The "overall" included those that matched to a PGY-2 position, e.g. neurology but not a preliminary PGY-1.) "



This is NOT meant to be a DO vs carib pissing match. I am still really considering a DO school and will probably not end up in the carribean. However I find that the match placements from DO schools are often glossed over when in fact it should be a point of serious discussion, especially for those considering specialties other than OBGYN and FM.

Then just go carib? Problem solved 🙂

 

[GopherMD]

Then just go carib? Problem solved 🙂

I don't think the OP has ever looked at a DO school's match list. As examples, both CCOM and DMU have great recent match lists with plenty of specialties represented.

 

[Ost3oclast]

I don't think the OP has ever looked at a DO school's match list. As examples, both CCOM and DMU have great recent match lists with plenty of specialties represented.

I know. Im just being facetious 😉 I looked at azcom's match list from last year? Amazing. Some of these schools go hard.

 

[Xlorgguss]

See it was my impression that it wasn't completely unheard of to have DO cardiothoracic surgeons at all. I am interested in the field as well and I haven't gotten the impression that going to DO route over MD would completely kill any chance of getting residency and a fellowship. Now the integrated programs may be a different story. It seems like there is the transition from just doing general surgery then a cardiothoracic fellowship to doing a focused cardiothoracic residency. There is a bunch of information in the surgical specialties forum. From what I have gleamed cardiothoracics isn't nearly as competitive as it once was. I believe that there are quite a few spots unfilled each year (I'm not sure if that is residency spots or fellowship). But with the effort I think the DO route is perfectly viable.

 

[KinesiologyNerd]

This is NOT meant to be a DO vs carib pissing match. I am still really considering a DO school and will probably not end up in the carribean. However I find that the match placements from DO schools are often glossed over when in fact it should be a point of serious discussion, especially for those considering specialties other than OBGYN and FM.

Correlation does not prove causation. You're still filling in the gaps with data that is not presented. Yes, a ton of DO's match primary care, but that makes complete sense. It is a huge mission of osteopathic schools, and many prospective DO's know they're primary care from the start so they go DO. So it's not surprising at all. The statistic I want to see if how many DO's were seeking speciality x vs. how many matched. Do the same for IMG.

Between allo and osteo matches there's a damn good chance you can specialize if you want to. That's a big plus for DO over IMG.

 

[kindasorta]

See it was my impression that it wasn't completely unheard of to have DO cardiothoracic surgeons at all. I am interested in the field as well and I haven't gotten the impression that going to DO route over MD would completely kill any chance of getting residency and a fellowship. Now the integrated programs may be a different story. It seems like there is the transition from just doing general surgery then a cardiothoracic fellowship to doing a focused cardiothoracic residency. There is a bunch of information in the surgical specialties forum. From what I have gleamed cardiothoracics isn't nearly as competitive as it once was. I believe that there are quite a few spots unfilled each year (I'm not sure if that is residency spots or fellowship). But with the effort I think the DO route is perfectly viable.

Perhaps you should read my link above. CT fellowships are entirely uncompetitive - in fact, they have problems filling at all.

For anyone entering residency in 2015 or later, there will be no such thing as DO residencies.

 

[Dr Turkelton]

Then just go carib? Problem solved 🙂

Sure just completely avoid any actual discussion on the issue.

I don't think the OP has ever looked at a DO school's match list. As examples, both CCOM and DMU have great recent match lists with plenty of specialties represented.

I have looked at about every match list available for each school. There are schools out there that have as little as 2 people going into surgery from the entire class, as well as others that do much better in surgery.


Again, I am NOT implying that DO<Carib or anything of that sort. I personally would much rather go to a DO school than SGU. But the point I am trying to make is that everyone on this forum completely avoids this conversation whenever it comes up and it is something that needs to be addressed. Why are DO match rates so low in specialties like surgery? Even if you factor in a 50% attrition rate at a caribbean school, they still have the same percentage of people matching into surgery than the average DO school. Is this not something that warrants concern? or at the very least a frank discussion about it?

 

[kindasorta]

Sure just completely avoid any actual discussion on the issue.



I have looked at about every match list available for each school. There are schools out there that have as little as 2 people going into surgery from the entire class, as well as others that do much better in surgery.


Again, I am NOT implying that DO<Carib or anything of that sort. I personally would much rather go to a DO school than SGU. But the point I am trying to make is that everyone on this forum completely avoids this conversation whenever it comes up and it is something that needs to be addressed. Why are DO match rates so low in specialties like surgery? Even if you factor in a 50% attrition rate at a caribbean school, they still have the same percentage of people matching into surgery than the average DO school. Is this not something that warrants concern? or at the very least a frank discussion about it?

The people you see matching into "surgery" at Caribbean schools are matching into surgery prelim years. In other words, they are matching into slavery with nothing left over after that 1st year of servitude. It's free labor for the hospital with no real residency position being offered in the end.

 

[GopherMD]

Back to the OP's question. Try to get into an MD program. BUT with that said, graduating from a DO school wont completely eliminate your options. Even as an MD, nothing will be handed to you on a silver platter, you will have to work just ad hard as a DO would. Being a DO MIGHT hinder you, but work your butt off to ensure you have the best chance to match.

 

[Dr Turkelton]

The people you see matching into "surgery" at Caribbean schools are matching into surgery prelim years. In other words, they are matching into slavery with nothing left over after that 1st year of servitude. It's free labor for the hospital with no real residency position being offered in the end.

Any source on this?

EDIT:

Found my own source, since I seem to be the only person in this thread doing so:

3% of all USIMG match into a full surgery residency not a prelim year.
2% of all DO's
6% of MD's

http://www.nrmp.org/data/resultsanddata2012.pdf

 

[Xlorgguss]

Perhaps you should read my link above. CT fellowships are entirely uncompetitive - in fact, they have problems filling at all.

For anyone entering residency in 2015 or later, there will be no such thing as DO residencies.

Right. From my understanding there is supersaturation in the field. But if that's what you want to go for, then do it.

 

[GopherMD]

OP, go where you think you will be most successful. Who knows, maybe you will decide in two years that you want to pursue a different specialty.

 

[kindasorta]

Right. From my understanding there is supersaturation in the field. But if that's what you want to go for, then do it.

Not supersaturation at all. Rather, tremendous reduction in demand. Interventional cardiology took over the field. Stent replaced coronary bypass. Without coronary bypass, you don't need heart surgeons (exaggerated point, but basically what happened).

Spending 8 years in residency in arguably one of the most grueling paths in medicine for 150k, if you can find a job, is really a humorous decision.

 

[kindasorta]

Any source on this?

The match lists.

 

[Dr Turkelton]

The match lists.

See my edit to that post if you care to look at the actual number and not make them up.

 

[kindasorta]

See my edit to that post if you care to look at the actual number and not make them up.

Oh wow 3%?!?!?! That's awesome.

DO's have their own residencies, friend. With surgery especially, 99% of DO's don't go MD. The numbers you cite are for MD residencies. So don't think for a second carib students have a better chance of getting surgical residencies. To do so is remarkably naive.

Swing and a miss.

 

[MedPR]

According this, the average US IMG has a much better chance at matching into quite a few specialties than DO's

Surgery:
6.5% of USIMG match into it
3% of DO's

Internal Med:
20% DO
28% USIMG

In almost all the joint Residencies (Peds-IM for example), as well as Neurosurg, ENT and Ortho, American foreign grads do better than DO's. DO's are heavily favoured in Peds and FM and OBGYN.

Aren't these stats a bit concerning for anyone else considering DO schools that doesn't want to be pushed into OBGYN or Family practice? That USIMG's have more than twice the chance of matching into surgery than DO's? I'm considering DO and Caribbean schools and stats like this confuse me, especially because I want the option of going into surgery in the future . And this is for all the USIMGs, not just the ones from top few Caribbean schools.

% of total students matched is not the same as likelihood of matching.

 

[kindasorta]

% of total students matched is not the same as likelihood of matching.

He also apparently doesn't realize that IMGs match at sweatshop surgery programs. Hopefully in PP all your patients need cholecystectomies.

 

[Dr Turkelton]

Oh wow 3%?!?!?! That's awesome.

DO's have their own residencies, friend. With surgery especially, 99% of DO's don't go MD. The numbers you cite are for MD residencies. So don't think for a second carib students have a better chance of getting surgical residencies. To do so is remarkably naive.

Swing and a miss.

By 99% you mean 65% (the not made up number).

If you combine MD and AOA residencies, the percent of DO's matching into a full surgical residency is 3.3%. About the same as the average USIMG.

Want to make up any more stats to try to prove a point?

I don't see why everyone here is so hostile and defensive whenever slight criticisms of DO schools are made. As a likely DO, I hope that not everyone in med school is the same. Caribbean grads match into surgery at a much higher rate than DO's and I feel that this is something that people like the OP, who are interested in surgery, should know when thinking about DO schools, that is all I'm trying to say.

 

[KinesiologyNerd]

By 99% you mean 65% (the not made up number).

If you combine MD and AOA residencies, the percent of DO's matching into a full surgical residency is 3.3%. About the same as the average USIMG.

cough cough...

% of total students matched is not the same as likelihood of matching.

 

[kindasorta]

By 99% you mean 65% (the not made up number).

If you combine MD and AOA residencies, the percent of DO's matching into a full surgical residency is 3.3%. About the same as the average USIMG.

Want to make up any more stats to try to prove a point?

I don't see why everyone here is so hostile and defensive whenever slight criticisms of DO schools are made. As a likely DO, I hope that not everyone in med school is the same. Caribbean grads match into surgery at a much higher rate than DO's and I feel that this is something that people like the OP, who are interested in surgery, should know when thinking about DO schools, that is all I'm trying to say.

IMGs have a better likelihood of matching into surgery than DOs?


Let's not even delve into the qwuality of said residencies. Look, I don't care what you do. But for any goober college student looking into med school, please, please, please do your research.

 

[Dr Turkelton]

IMGs have a better likelihood of matching into surgery than DOs? :.

For ****s sake.. Can you read? I said USIMG's match at a higher rate than DO's into surgery programs, this is a fact. Does anyone have statistics on the percent of osteopathic students interested in surgery compared to those that actually do? I've looked at the curriculum of several schools and most spend less time on surgery clerkships than MD schools, something to consider if you are dead set on surgery

 

[kindasorta]

For ****s sake.. Can you read? I said USIMG's match at a higher rate than DO's into surgery programs, this is a fact. Does anyone have statistics on the percent of osteopathic students interested in surgery compared to those that actually do? I've looked at the curriculum of several schools and most spend less time on surgery clerkships than MD schools, something to consider if you are dead set on surgery

Am I being told what matters when applying for a residency by a pre-med?

 

[MedPR]

For ****s sake.. Can you read? I said USIMG's match at a higher rate than DO's into surgery programs, this is a fact. Does anyone have statistics on the percent of osteopathic students interested in surgery compared to those that actually do? I've looked at the curriculum of several schools and most spend less time on surgery clerkships than MD schools, something to consider if you are dead set on surgery

Wrong. There is no data that shows applied/failed to match. Saying IMGs match at a higher rate is bs.

Sent from my SGH-T999 using SDN Mobile

 

[Dr Turkelton]

Am I being told what matters when applying for a residency by a pre-med?

every statistic you've posted has been completely made up and you ignore every point I try to make. How about instead of being a giant douche you actually try to refute any of my points with real evidence? Again, really hope everyone in med school isn't as stuck up as you seem to be...

 

[NontradCA]

Wrong. There is no data that shows applied/failed to match. Saying IMGs match at a higher rate is bs.

Sent from my SGH-T999 using SDN Mobile

Not necessarily. People aren't idiots. Most people who apply to surgery are competitive and they probably consider themselves having a decent shot in the field.

 

[kindasorta]

every statistic you've posted has been completely made up and you ignore every point I try to make. How about instead of being a giant douche you actually try to refute any of my points with real evidence? Again, really hope everyone in med school isn't as stuck up as you seem to be...

Do you even realize that newcoming carib students may have issues finding ANY residency, let alone a competitive one? I'm applying to a much less competitive specialty than surgery, and all of the top places that I'm interviewing at don't have a single carib student in sight, in any of the classes.

 

[NontradCA]

Do you even realize that newcoming carib students may have issues finding ANY residency, let alone a competitive one?

Ya but the ones applying to competitive specialties are more competitive than the ones who are gunning for IM, you would agree?

 

[kindasorta]

Ya but the ones applying to competitive specialties are more competitive than the ones who are gunning for IM, you would agree?

I don't think you understand the situation. Carib students only have residency opportunities because US grads < residency spots. That is changing. With people graduating in 2017, it's changing dramatically.

 

[NontradCA]

I don't think you understand the situation. Carib students only have residency opportunities because US grads < residency spots. That is changing. With people graduating in 2017, it's changing dramatically.

That argument is invalid for competitive specialties, isn't it?

 

[kindasorta]

That argument is invalid for competitive specialties, isn't it?

No, competitive specialties will be entirely off limits to IMGs. As it stands, an IMG matching into a surgery program has numbers that would grant a US med student interviews at the best programs in the country. The IMG is lucky to get interviews at Harlem sweatshops. That's also what's being ignored is the quality of the residency program these IMGs are matching into. An IMG wanting surgery is going to be relegated to the ****tiest programs in the country. That is going to be soon replaced with no surgery opportunities whatsoever and they will be clamoring to get into Harlem IM programs with 250s on Step 1.

 

[Dr Turkelton]

Do you even realize that newcoming carib students may have issues finding ANY residency, let alone a competitive one? I'm applying to a much less competitive specialty than surgery, and all of the top places that I'm interviewing at don't have a single carib student in sight, in any of the classes.

People who are competetive enough to be thinking about surgery are not gonna go unmatched coming from carribean schools, the residency crunch does not mean all IMG's will not match.

The point I am trying to make for the 4th time is not that Carib>DO. It is that the number of DOs matching to surgery is not very good. On par even with carribean grads. This is something that people like OP should know. If someone is dead set on surgery they should do everything they can do find a place in a US MD program because your chances are extremely low matching into a good MD surgery residency from a DO school.

 

[NontradCA]

No, competitive specialties will be entirely off limits to IMGs. As it stands, an IMG matching into a surgery program has numbers that would grant a US med student interviews at the best programs in the country. The IMG is lucky to get interviews at Harlem sweatshops. That's also what's being ignored is the quality of the residency program these IMGs are matching into. An IMG wanting surgery is going to be relegated to the ****tiest programs in the country. That is going to be soon replaced with no surgery opportunities whatsoever and they will be clamoring to get into Harlem IM programs with 250s on Step 1.

Harlem residencies are that bad or is that an analogy? But you're saying that no one else wants those surgery slots? That does make sense I suppose. Realistically though, I don't think it will be that bad for IMGs; they supply such a great amount of #s to the Physician population that I can't really see such an abrupt shift.

If you look at the data that's presented on this thread you can see that there is little variability over the last decade. Couple this with a Physician shortage that will undoubtly not be compensated with the number of US students graduating IMGs will always have a place and policy makers will make it so.

 

[Dr Turkelton]

No, competitive specialties will be entirely off limits to IMGs. As it stands, an IMG matching into a surgery program has numbers that would grant a US med student interviews at the best programs in the country. The IMG is lucky to get interviews at Harlem sweatshops. That's also what's being ignored is the quality of the residency program these IMGs are matching into. An IMG wanting surgery is going to be relegated to the ****tiest programs in the country. That is going to be soon replaced with no surgery opportunities whatsoever and they will be clamoring to get into Harlem IM programs with 250s on Step 1.

And how do the surgical residencies DOs are matching into compare to these Harlem sweat shops? From everyone I've talked to even DOs with stellar stats are matching into rural community based programs, with the big city or academic programs being extremely difficult to match into as a DO.

 

[as1212559]

This thread is just groundbreaking.

 

[DocVapor]

Dr. Turkelton,

% of all DO's that match into surgery =/= % of all DO's ranking surgery highly that match

Only the latter statistic is useful when you are trying to make the argument you are making. Using the first statistic means that you are assuming every single medical student wants to do surgery, which is not true. I don't know what the actual numbers are, and I don't know if they are available. I'm not trying to make an argument one way or another, I just feel like you are reading too far into the numbers you are citing.

 

[cliquesh]

Perhaps you should read my link above. CT fellowships are entirely uncompetitive - in fact, they have problems filling at all.

For anyone entering residency in 2015 or later, there will be no such thing as DO residencies.

Yea, it's not very competitive. DOs who have done an AOA general surgery residency, do not seem having any trouble matching an Acgme CT fellowship http://www.pcomsurgery.org/Program-Alumni.php

 

[MedPR]

Wrong. There is no data that shows applied/failed to match. Saying IMGs match at a higher rate is bs.

Sent from my SGH-T999 using SDN Mobile

Not necessarily. People aren't idiots. Most people who apply to surgery are competitive and they probably consider themselves having a decent shot in the field.

I'm not really sure which part of my quote you were replying to.

 

[cliquesh]

Ya but the ones applying to competitive specialties are more competitive than the ones who are gunning for IM, you would agree?

The average step 1 score for Acgme general surgery is a 227. The average IM score is a 226. The average medical student should be competitive for either.