Aspiring Heart Surgeon

[NontradCA]

The average step 1 score for Acgme general surgery is a 227. The average IM score is a 226. The average medical student should be competitive for either.

But there's fewer spots to rank and less applicants is indicative of more competition, especially within the subgroups of US IMG and Osteopathic grads. A greater percentage of Surgery programs interview US IMGs in comparison with DO grads. The number of IM residencies that consider IMGs is much higher, so my point is valid.

http://www.nrmp.org/data/programresultsbyspecialty2012.pdf

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[MedPR]

But there's fewer spots to rank and less applicants is indicative of more competition, especially within the subgroups of US IMG and Osteopathic grads. A greater percentage of Surgery programs interview US IMGs in comparison with DO grads. The number of IM residencies that consider IMGs is much higher, so my point is valid.

http://www.nrmp.org/data/programresultsbyspecialty2012.pdf

Less applicants is indicative of less interest, not more competition.

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[kindasorta]

But there's fewer spots to rank and less applicants is indicative of more competition, especially within the subgroups of US IMG and Osteopathic grads. A greater percentage of Surgery programs interview US IMGs in comparison with DO grads. The number of IM residencies that consider IMGs is much higher, so my point is valid.

http://www.nrmp.org/data/programresultsbyspecialty2012.pdf

Let me try this again. There are many programs that no US grad would ever go to. They don't even get interviews. Why? Because the programs are sweatshops. The violate work hour rules, have terrible conditions, no teaching, awful exposure to pathology, etc etc. They don't want American grads because they don't want anyone to rock the boat. A little research will expose this very well known fact.

 

[Dr Turkelton]

Less applicants is indicative of less interest, not more competition.

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I don't know how you can just say that. If applicants dont think they have a shot at getting a position they are more likely to apply for another specialty right? Is the interest in surgery among DO's really less than half the interest of MD's?

 

[NontradCA]

Less applicants is indicative of less interest, not more competition.

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That's not the important part of the post. The percentage of programs having interest in the applicant is. That's what this thread is about.

 

[NontradCA]

Let me try this again. There are many programs that no US grad would ever go to. They don't even get interviews. Why? Because the programs are sweatshops. The violate work hour rules, have terrible conditions, no teaching, awful exposure to pathology, etc etc. They don't want American grads because they don't want anyone to rock the boat. A little research will expose this very well known fact.

Such a bold claim. And where is your research to back this up?

 

[kindasorta]

Such a bold claim. And where is your research to back this up?

I'm a 4th year med student that has interviewed for residency. I have experience. Not everything in life needs an abstract and a p-value to be understood. If you really care, spend some time in the IM forum and learn it for yourself.

 

[NontradCA]

I'm a 4th year med student that has interviewed for residency. I have experience.

 

[Mosonik]

I don't know how you can just say that. If applicants dont think they have a shot at getting a position they are more likely to apply for another specialty right? Is the interest in surgery among DO's really less than half the interest of MD's?

Think about the implications of that statement. If that is true, why do so many people apply to med school? Same concept I think. People are going to think what the heck and throw their hat in the ring. Perhaps residents are more realistic than other humans but I would bet that human nature prevails regardless of the initials behind their name

 

[kindasorta]

It most certainly gives me knowledge over you.

 

[NontradCA]

It most certainly gives me knowledge over you.

And knowledge is power

But in all seriousness, have you rotated to these "sweatshops"? I will indeed ask around and venture to the IM forums. It may be true, it may not be. The statistics says 99 percentage of them interview US MD and you said a lot didn't so I'm gonna go ahead and say that you're exaggerating quite a bit.

Did you even look at the data?

 

[Dr Turkelton]

Think about the implications of that statement. If that is true, why do so many people apply to med school? Same concept I think. People are going to think what the heck and throw their hat in the ring. Perhaps residents are more realistic than other humans but I would bet that human nature prevails regardless of the initials behind their name

I don't think the situations are quite that comparable. Sure if you dont think you have a chance to get into med school you still might apply because you have nothing to lose other than a few application fees. The consequences of not matching at all are much more severe than that.

Hell around half of all MD surgery residencies don't even interview DO's, don't you think that puts someone like the OP at a disadvantage?


My question about whether the rate of interest in surgery among DO's is really less than half then their MD counterparts was a sincere question. I find it hard to believe that there would be such a drastic difference between the two populations but maybe I'm wrong.

 

[kindasorta]

And knowledge is power

But in all seriousness, have you rotated to these "sweatshops"? I will indeed ask around and venture to the IM forums. It may be true, it may not be. The statistics says 99 percentage of them interview US MD and you said a lot didn't so I'm gonna go ahead and say that you're exaggerating quite a bit.

Did you even look at the data?

Hell no I haven't rotated at those sweatshops. I'm not an IMG.

 

[NontradCA]

Hell no I haven't rotated at those sweatshops. I'm not an IMG.

Well then anecdotes should not suffice for your assumptions, please look at the data. I know statistics don't explain the whole picture but they don't lie. I have no position on the issue, as someone with less knowledge I'd like some help with the interpretation.

 

[Dr Turkelton]

Hell no I haven't rotated at those sweatshops. I'm not an IMG.

Future doctor right here

 

[kindasorta]

Well then anecdotes should not suffice for your assumptions, please look at the data. I know statistics don't explain the whole picture but they don't lie. I have no position on the issue, as someone with less knowledge I'd like some help with the interpretation.

My statements don't contradict any data. You are tremendously naive if you're going to argue with what I'm telling you. It's well-known.

 

[NontradCA]

My statements don't contradict any data. You are tremendously naive if you're going to argue with what I'm telling you. It's well-known.

I already pointed out two posts ago where the statistics basically indicate you as a spreader of misinformation. Try reading. I'm seriously not trying to make you look like an idiot, but you're making it difficult.

 

[Mosonik]

I don't think the situations are quite that comparable. Sure if you dont think you have a chance to get into med school you still might apply because you have nothing to lose other than a few application fees. The consequences of not matching at all are much more severe than that.

Hell around half of all MD surgery residencies don't even interview DO's, don't you think that puts someone like the OP at a disadvantage?


My question about whether the rate of interest in surgery among DO's is really less than half then their MD counterparts was a sincere question. I find it hard to believe that there would be such a drastic difference between the two populations but maybe I'm wrong.

Yes, I think there is no doubt a statistical disadvantage for a current DO 4th year to match
to an ACGME surgical residency compared to a US trained MD in the same position. However as far as IMG and Carib. trends show an advantage to a DO. There is no conceivable way medical students (DO or MD) will be squeezed out of federally funded residency slots competitive or not before IMG or Carib. That is especially true now that there is going to be just one match for all US trained med students. I would be very nervous to be counting on the same environment to exist for foreign trained grads as has existed for the past number of years which is already semi hostile outside of rural programs, some inner city and county hospitals as well as VA hospitals

 

[kindasorta]

I already pointed out two posts ago where the statistics basically indicate you as a spreader of misinformation. Try reading. I'm seriously not trying to make you look like an idiot, but you're making it difficult.

Your statistics say nothing of the quality of the programs these IMGs are going to. Is this concept bending your mind?

 

[MedPR]

I don't know how you can just say that. If applicants dont think they have a shot at getting a position they are more likely to apply for another specialty right? Is the interest in surgery among DO's really less than half the interest of MD's?

That's not the important part of the post. The percentage of programs having interest in the applicant is. That's what this thread is about.

There's just no getting through to either of you. Go ahead and think Carib is better.

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[NontradCA]

Your statistics say nothing of the quality of the programs these IMGs are going to. Is this concept bending your mind?

Let me try this again. There are many programs that no US grad would ever go to. They don't even get interviews. Why? Because the programs are sweatshops. The violate work hour rules, have terrible conditions, no teaching, awful exposure to pathology, etc etc. They don't want American grads because they don't want anyone to rock the boat. A little research will expose this very well known fact.

And knowledge is power

But in all seriousness, have you rotated to these "sweatshops"? I will indeed ask around and venture to the IM forums. It may be true, it may not be. The statistics says 99 percentage of them interview US MD and you said a lot didn't so I'm gonna go ahead and say that you're exaggerating quite a bit.

Did you even look at the data?

You may want to substitute some of that knowledge for reading comprehension.

 

[NontradCA]

There's just no getting through to either of you. Go ahead and think Carib is better.

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Such irony.

 

[NontradCA]

Anyone with any sense care to chime in on these stats?

 

[KinesiologyNerd]

But there's fewer spots to rank and less applicants is indicative of more competition, especially within the subgroups of US IMG and Osteopathic grads. A greater percentage of Surgery programs interview US IMGs in comparison with DO grads. The number of IM residencies that consider IMGs is much higher, so my point is valid.

http://www.nrmp.org/data/programresultsbyspecialty2012.pdf

3% in favor of IMG. I'd call that a wash, but you're correct there.

2% in favor of DO. I'd call that a wash as well, but in stark contrast to your statements.

 

[NontradCA]

3% in favor of IMG. I'd call that a wash, but you're correct there.

2% in favor of DO. I'd call that a wash as well, but in stark contrast to your statements.

Yes so where do people get off saying for Surgery that DOs are significantly at an advantage? I'm genuinely trying to understand this, I have no intentions of going to the Caribbean. I just get sick of seeing people who claim to be intellectuals talk in absolutes.

Edit. That is not a stark contrast, that only supports what I said. For DOs and IMGs Surgery is more competitive than IM. I referenced that to invalidate cliqueshes comment.

 

[cliquesh]

In 2012,

59 of the 4,279, 1.3%, US-IMGs applying for an Acgme residency matched general surgery.
36 of the 2,360, 1.5%, DOs applying for an Acgme residency matched general surgery.
108 DOs matched AOA general surgery that year.
4623 DOs graduated that year.
total percentage of DOs matching general surgery, Acgme and aoa, (36+108)/4623 = 3.1%
914 of the 16,527, 5.5%, USMD seniors matched Acgme surgery

 

[KinesiologyNerd]

I gotcha. I misread what you said. I thought you were saying IM residencies show a significant preference for IMG over DO. My B.

As far as my stance on the matter. If you factor in the horrific attrition seen at IMG schools, there's no competition. Then osteopathic has the AOA match which is the proverbial ace up the sleeve. Which residencies are good and which are bad? I won't even claim to know.

 

[NontradCA]

I gotcha. I misread what you said. I thought you were saying IM residencies show a significant preference for IMG over DO. My B.

As far as my stance on the matter. If you factor in the horrific attrition seen at IMG schools, theres no competition. Then osteopathic has the AOA match which is the proverbial ace up the sleeve. Which residencies are good and which are bad? I won't even claim to know.

I agree

 

[Dr Turkelton]

There's just no getting through to either of you. Go ahead and think Carib is better.

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Whatever you say bud, you know that's not the point either of us are trying to make but way to continue to avoid any actual discussion.

Yes so where do people get off saying for Surgery that DOs are significantly at an advantage? I'm genuinely trying to understand this, I have no intentions of going to the Caribbean. I just get sick of seeing people who claim to be intellectuals talk in absolutes.

Edit. That is not a stark contrast, that only supports what I said. For DOs and IMGs Surgery is more competitive than IM. I referenced that to invalidate cliqueshes comment.

Thisx1000. I don't see why everyone is jumping down our throats for asking for a (non-anecdotal) explanation of why people say DO is significantly better than Caribbean if one plans to go into surgery.

I am also curious as to how the upcoming merger will change match rates, do you think it'll be harder for DO's to match into competitive residencies once all residencies are open to both DO's and MD's? Will that 53% of surgery programs number stay the same?

 

[ToldYouSo]

Wow all these stats and data are supposed to make questions like this easy to answer, but it's just back and forth. That means that certain people here are interpreting the data incorrectly or falsely extrapolating. Would be interested to hear what aProgdirector has to say

Even if you factor in a 50% attrition rate at a caribbean school, they still have the same percentage of people matching into surgery than the average DO school. Is this not something that warrants concern? or at the very least a frank discussion about it?

I like how you quickly gloss over this statement and even then look at it from a completely wrong perspective. Your avg. carib school has to shed about half of its weakest students for their pool to even approach the surgical match rate of DO students into ACGME surgery... and then those students are then limited to ~ 50% of programs that consider them... not counting AOA surgery... not counting that DO places a bigger emphasis on primary care... not counting that carib schools heavily cater to the STEP exam when DO students take STEP I in addition to the COMLEX boards... not counting the recent fears of an upcoming crunch for IMG's getting matched into ANY residency much less surgery.

When you look at the true probability of an entering US IMG student ultimately matching into surgery vs. DO where the attrition rate is much much lower, it's not a contest.

 

[kindasorta]

Do you guys look at any other threads beside this one? Going to the Caribbean is considered a universally bad idea nowadays. And for surgery? Holy crap. Going to the Caribbean with the intention of becoming a surgeon has GOT to be arguably the most uninformed decision I've heard of in medicine.

Getting a surgery residency isn't even part of the modern discussion. This isn't 1987. The modern discussion is: will I even get a US residency.

 

[Dr Turkelton]

Wow all these stats and data are supposed to make questions like this easy to answer, but it's just back and forth. That means that certain people here are interpreting the data incorrectly or falsely extrapolating. Would be interested to hear what aProgdirector has to say






I like how you quickly gloss over this statement and even then look at it from a completely wrong perspective. Your avg. carib school has to shed about half of its weakest students for their pool to even approach the surgical match rate of DO students into ACGME surgery... and then those students are then limited to ~ 50% of programs that consider them... not counting AOA surgery... not counting that DO places a bigger emphasis on primary care... not counting that carib schools heavily cater to the STEP exam when DO students take STEP I in addition to the COMLEX boards... not counting the recent fears of an upcoming crunch for IMG's getting matched into ANY residency much less surgery.

When you look at the true probability of an entering US IMG student ultimately matching into surgery vs. DO where the attrition rate is much much lower, it's not a contest.

Someone who can get into DO schools would in all likelihood not be one of the people who fails out of the University of Antigua right? The 50% that drop out of carribean schools are people who would not have succeeded in med school anywhere, and the remaining group of people who graduate are probably much closer in ability to your average DO class. And I really dont think you are looking at those numbers correctly, if you factor in the attrition rate at both DO and offshore schools USIMG's are still getting into surgery at a higher rate. And keep in mind this is for ALL USIMG's, not just those from the big 4 in the carribean.

 

[Dr Turkelton]

Do you guys look at any other threads beside this one? Going to the Caribbean is considered a universally bad idea nowadays. And for surgery? Holy crap. Going to the Caribbean with the intention of becoming a surgeon has GOT to be arguably the most uninformed decision I've heard of in medicine.

Getting a surgery residency isn't even part of the modern discussion. This isn't 1987. The modern discussion is: will I even get a US residency.

Are you having a conversation with yourself? No one here is talking about going to Caribbean schools over DO schools, obviously DO's are a better choice. Just trying to get a handle on why surgery match rates for DO's are so low that we would even be having this conversation comparing them to off shore schools. I don't see what is so difficult to understand about that.

 

[YouNeverKnow22]

Do you guys look at any other threads beside this one? Going to the Caribbean is considered a universally bad idea nowadays. And for surgery? Holy crap. Going to the Caribbean with the intention of becoming a surgeon has GOT to be arguably the most uninformed decision I've heard of in medicine.

Getting a surgery residency isn't even part of the modern discussion. This isn't 1987. The modern discussion is: will I even get a US residency.

PGY-1
http://www.brownneurosurgery.com/residents/residents.asp

PGY-3
http://www.wakehealth.edu/School/Neurosurgery/Resident-Profiles.htm


PGY-3
http://www.jhsmiami.org/body.cfm?id=8942

PGY-2 (St.George's)
http://hsc.unm.edu/som/neurosurgery/residents.shtml

PGY-1
http://www.upstate.edu/practice/neurosurgery/education/residency/residents.php

edit: not in support or in favor of either side of this argument, just thought I'd share that the carib doesn't doom anyones aspirations of going into a competitive surgical specialty.

 

[mcloaf]

edit: not in support or in favor of either side of this argument, just thought I'd share that the carib doesn't doom anyones aspirations of going into a competitive surgical specialty.

That it did not doom THEIR aspirations of going into nsurg offers little to no support for the statement that it didn't doom ANYONE'S aspirations of going into nsurg.

 

[coolingglasses]

Cool story bros.

 

[DrBumblebee]

PGY-1
http://www.brownneurosurgery.com/residents/residents.asp

PGY-3
http://www.wakehealth.edu/School/Neurosurgery/Resident-Profiles.htm


PGY-3
http://www.jhsmiami.org/body.cfm?id=8942

PGY-2 (St.George's)
http://hsc.unm.edu/som/neurosurgery/residents.shtml

PGY-1
http://www.upstate.edu/practice/neurosurgery/education/residency/residents.php

edit: not in support or in favor of either side of this argument, just thought I'd share that the carib doesn't doom anyones aspirations of going into a competitive surgical specialty.

One resident here and one there from Caribbean med school doesn't mean a lot. You never know who has what type(s) of connections, or how strong a support system that one lucky guy graduated from the Caribbean med school has (ex. a dady/uncle/mommy/etc. who donated some multi-million dollars as a philanthropy gift to that hospital, etc.) on the other hand, established US-DO schools have many graduates that are matched to ACGME and AOA surgical residency programs each year.

 

[as1212559]

In 2012,

59 of the 4,279, 1.3%, US-IMGs applying for an Acgme residency matched general surgery.
36 of the 2,360, 1.5%, DOs applying for an Acgme residency matched general surgery.
108 DOs matched AOA general surgery that year.
4623 DOs graduated that year.
total percentage of DOs matching general surgery, Acgme and aoa, (36+108)/4623 = 3.1%
914 of the 16,527, 5.5%, USMD seniors matched Acgme surgery

Poor cliquesh coming in with actual statistics and being ignored. The **** would an M4 know about matching residencies anyway? DONT YOU SEE THESE 4 SURGEONS FROM THE CARIB. ARE YOU BLIND. Pre-meds ftw.

 

[Ost3oclast]

Poor cliquesh coming in with actual statistics and being ignored. The **** would an M4 know about matching residencies anyway? DONT YOU SEE THESE 4 SURGEONS FROM THE CARIB. ARE YOU BLIND. Pre-meds ftw.

Hahaha no one likes real statistics......wait....

 

[YouNeverKnow22]

Poor cliquesh coming in with actual statistics and being ignored. The **** would an M4 know about matching residencies anyway? DONT YOU SEE THESE 4 SURGEONS FROM THE CARIB. ARE YOU BLIND. Pre-meds ftw.

You're missing my point, I was addressing the statement that it is impossible to match surgery from Carib, which is not true.

Carry on.

 

[DocVapor]

You're missing my point, I was addressing the statement that it is impossible to match surgery from Carib, which is not true.

Carry on.

I always like to think of the word "impossible" as an asymptote.

 

[MedPR]

You're missing my point, I was addressing the statement that it is impossible to match surgery from Carib, which is not true.

Carry on.

Nothing is impossible. Very low chances might as well be. Carry on.

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[NontradCA]

Poor cliquesh coming in with actual statistics and being ignored. The **** would an M4 know about matching residencies anyway? DONT YOU SEE THESE 4 SURGEONS FROM THE CARIB. ARE YOU BLIND. Pre-meds ftw.

Actually cliquesh brought up an erroneous point, got fact checked by statistics and posted something irrelevant to cover his trails. What would an M4 know? Apparently nothing (see kindasorta). And to be honest, as someone who plans to attend DO school- this thread is actually embarrassing.

 

[as1212559]

cliq said that IM and Gsurg are about equal competition wise. Board scores say yes. The number of spots alone says nothing. You can have ten spots in a specialty and if only eight people ranked it that doesn't make it non-competitive.

Categorical IM: 5121 slots/9403 applied = 0.54 spots per applicant
Surgery categorical: 1108 slots/2276 applied = 0.486 spots per applicant
Add in surgery prelim totals to categorical totals: 2287 slots/4160 applied = 0.55 spots per applicant

That last one is invalid though because people can apply to both prelim and categorical so the totals overlap. The number of slots available would remain the same and the number of applicants would drop if it was corrected for people who ranked both. Granted there is a lot of other overlap here and transitional years etc in the mix, but still.

Someone correct if this is the wrong way of looking at this data or if I am misunderstanding something here.

And to the OPs point, we are all ignoring the poor fella: Yes, a larger number of IMGs match ACGME gsurg (albeit more than half are prelims) than DO's, but that doesn't mean anyone should run to the Caribbean. And as many people mentioned CT is doable from AOA gsurg. The guy wants to be a heart surgeon.

 

[Dr Turkelton]

Actually cliquesh brought up an erroneous point, got fact checked by statistics and posted something irrelevant to cover his trails. What would an M4 know? Apparently nothing (see kindasorta). And to be honest, as someone who plans to attend DO school- this thread is actually embarrassing.

I would have liked to think that med students were the slightest bit objective.