Associate First year salaries

[DMD_DREAMING]

Hey, I was hoping someone in here would have a reasonable estimation as to how much money a right out of dental school associate would make on average. Because as we all know, when we come out of school, most of us will already have a sizeable student debt and diving into private practice is not a realistic business perspective until time will allow for some savings for equipment and some student debt relief. Thanks to anyone that can help answer my question!

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[critterbug]

$80,000-$100,000

But your earnings depend on location and speed/quality of dentistry you provide, because many associate dentists get paid on percentage of production/collection. The above #'s are just a rough estimate, as there are too many variables to provide "accurate" figures.

 

[Col Sanders]

You can also try a search, many threads cover this topic.

 

[ItsGavinC]

$80,000-$100,000

But your earnings depend on location and speed/quality of dentistry you provide, because many associate dentists get paid on percentage of production/collection. The above #'s are just a rough estimate, as there are too many variables to provide "accurate" figures.

Great post. I'd actually broaden the range to $70-120,000. That pretty much covers the bases for associates, even if the variables are thrown into play.

 

[blankguy]

Anybody here work in Boston. I have friends who are associates but I sense that it maybe too nosy of me to ask and they probably won't want to disclose their salaries. All I've gotten is "I'm not earning as much as I hoped".

 

[HBomb]

Anybody here work in Boston. I have friends who are associates but I sense that it maybe too nosy of me to ask and they probably won't want to disclose their salaries. All I've gotten is "I'm not earning as much as I hoped".

You can ask anyone in any profession and they'll tell you, "I'm not earning as much as I hoped."

 

[blankguy]

You can ask anyone in any profession and they'll tell you, "I'm not earning as much as I hoped."

Meaning I'm not getting a useful response.

 

[larryphrank]

Another thing also, as an associate, as mentioned above, you are going to get paid on production/ collection probably anywhere from 25 to 40 %

May have to pay lab fees

Most likely are going to get all the crap (fillings, dentures, annoying patients), while the boss takes the good stuff. Thats the way it works.

Some associates will get a good benefit package others will not.

Consider amount of hours also.

Some practices will pay by the day $300 to $600 +/-.

Others hourly $50 - $100

Location, type of practice makes a difference.

All cash practice, higher fees, usually but not always, less patients, that actually pay a higher price and usually are more reliable.

Insurance practice, very low fees (some are $325/crown...) Some places accept this in full, so you have to do 2 + crowns in an insurance based practice to equal the same $$ for one crown in non-insurance.

Endo, endo, endo + emergency, emergency, emergency

this is where the $$ usually is.

If you can get a person out of pain, they will love you and trust you forever, even if you hurtthem next time. Endo leads to post core crown (another $1000)
and odds are, if they let one tooth go to crap, there are others.

I know in dental school, these are the most dreaded things (rct/emerg), but if you can get good at these, your patient base will grow dramatically, and so will your pocketbook.

larry

 

[aileen]

Another thing also, as an associate, as mentioned above, you are going to get paid on production/ collection probably anywhere from 25 to 40 %

May have to pay lab fees

Most likely are going to get all the crap (fillings, dentures, annoying patients), while the boss takes the good stuff. Thats the way it works.

Some associates will get a good benefit package others will not.

Consider amount of hours also.

Some practices will pay by the day $300 to $600 +/-.

Others hourly $50 - $100

Location, type of practice makes a difference.

All cash practice, higher fees, usually but not always, less patients, that actually pay a higher price and usually are more reliable.

Insurance practice, very low fees (some are $325/crown...) Some places accept this in full, so you have to do 2 + crowns in an insurance based practice to equal the same $$ for one crown in non-insurance.

Endo, endo, endo + emergency, emergency, emergency

this is where the $$ usually is.

If you can get a person out of pain, they will love you and trust you forever, even if you hurtthem next time. Endo leads to post core crown (another $1000)
and odds are, if they let one tooth go to crap, there are others.

I know in dental school, these are the most dreaded things (rct/emerg), but if you can get good at these, your patient base will grow dramatically, and so will your pocketbook.

larry

May I ask where do you practice? You sound like someone
practicing in a very competitive area of New York City, and I second your insightful opinion.

 

[larryphrank]

Long Island, about 1/2 hr away from the city.

To some extent it is competitive, but on the other hand, we bring in about 100 new patients per month, so there really is enough out there to go around. Where I work , we are all partners, so there is no competition within the office. Its not getting the patients, its keeping them. That is why I stressed the Endo, and emergency thing. YIf you get them out of pain, in a timely manner, they will be back, with their friends, family.... I have patients flying in from arizona, florida.....and schedule their appts. when the yvisit their families friends, just because they trust me, and I did the right thing by them. am i the worlds greatest dentist, nope! But, I treat them right and they appreciate and acknowledge this.

Oh, and a big important point. Make sure the front desk likes you. Guess who schdules your appts? WHen a big case comes in, guess who they will give it to? The one who treats them like crap? or the one who respects them? When the screaming kid comes in, guess who will not get it?? Trust me on this one, treat your staff really well. If you dont agree with anything else I say, keep this point in the back of your mind. it will pay off with reduced stress and more $$$$. Trust me.

larry

 

[blankguy]

While we are on the subject of growing patient base, why is it that some practices don't accept new patients?? More patients---->more $$$$ and more references to get even more patients.

 

[DrJeff]

More often than not if a practice isn't accepting new patients it's because of 2 reasons:

1) The practice is currently soooo busy that the dentist just wants to get control of the practice again by having it shrink a bit. I.E. the dentist is currently working 4.5+ days a week with a 3 month back log and really wants to spend more time at home with his/her family. A really good, quick way to do this is not accept new patients for a few months, and then rasie your fees by atleast 20%(the people who leave the practice because of the fee increase are typically the "undesireable" patients who won't want the higher end treatment needed to keep the income the same while working less hours)

2) The dentist is getting ready to retire and isn't/can't going to sell the practice.

Most of the time though you'll still want to accept new patients even if you're trying to "shrink" the practice. This is because for the most part you've done/are doing all the major treatment plans of your existing patients (i.e. the multiple restorative/endo/prosth unit patients) and the patients that you have in hygiene recall are relatively in good shape needing minimal amounts of work. By bringing in new patients, you likely to get the larger treatment plan cases that you want to keep your income at the level you want.

 

[ItsGavinC]

So much valuable information! Thanks to all the practitioners for their insights.

 

[Bickle]

More often than not if a practice isn't accepting new patients it's because of 2 reasons:

1) The practice is currently soooo busy that the dentist just wants to get control of the practice again by having it shrink a bit. I.E. the dentist is currently working 4.5+ days a week with a 3 month back log and really wants to spend more time at home with his/her family. A really good, quick way to do this is not accept new patients for a few months, and then rasie your fees by atleast 20%(the people who leave the practice because of the fee increase are typically the "undesireable" patients who won't want the higher end treatment needed to keep the income the same while working less hours)

.

Is there any risk of losing more patients than desired by using this method?

 

[larryphrank]

Dr jeff is right on.

If you keep the higher paying pool of patients, you can work less make the same or more. Many will drop the crappy insurances.

The reason for crappy insurances, is for a new young office to fill chair space. Maybe your not making much, but, an empty chair makes $0.

As you build the practice (on rferal basis from this patient pool) you then can weed out, and create the kind of practice you desire.

Going back to what i said previously, emergencies are key. They are in no position to negotiate/ shop around. Once they are in your chair, they want to get out of pain. They will come up with the $$$ to get out of pain. This also why it is necessary to be proficient in RCT. If you are known as "the doctor who got him out of pain" you just got yourself 10 new patients.

You wouldnt believe how many new patients come in, because their old
dentist couldnt sqeeze them into their schedule or gavethem an appt in 3 weeks.

larry

 

[spidergirl]

Hi,
Can general dentist do RCT? or is it against the law & it's totally endodontist's job

 

[drPheta]

GP can do any dental procedure they like, provided they have the proper training. It's the specialists who are limited to their scope of specialty.

 

[thisisit]

...

Most likely are going to get all the crap (fillings, dentures, annoying patients), while the boss takes the good stuff. Thats the way it works.

....

All cash practice, higher fees, usually but not always, less patients, that actually pay a higher price and usually are more reliable.

Insurance practice, very low fees (some are $325/crown...) Some places accept this in full, so you have to do 2 + crowns in an insurance based practice to equal the same $$ for one crown in non-insurance.

....

larry

Hey buddy, send some of those "crappy" dentures and fillings my way! New graduate complaining about doing fillings and dentures, now that's a first! You do what you can to get your feet wet, pay your bills, and buy your Porsche Stop complaining about the dentures. I love'em.

Also, I have never seen an all CASH practice. Do you mean fee for service ( no discounted PPO, HMOs or other plans). If you accept $325 from insurance on a $800 crown fee and not charge the patient, it's considered INSURANCE FRAUD. I know it's done but those are the dumb dentists, don't get involved.

 

[larryphrank]

You can have all my dentures, there yours. consider them a gift from me.
And, just getting back to the original topic of this post, Associate first years salary. Sure , new dentists will get their feet wet with what ever comestheir way and what they feel comfortable with. But, to expect a $80,000 - $120,000 salary first year based on percentage pay of production collection when all that is being done are fillings is extremely unrealistic. I think a new graduate should consider this in their first year salary projection. Sure, you can land a high paying 1st year job, but if you dont produce, your paycheck will reflect this. Im not saying a new graduate should do anything unethical, or rush and do sloppy work. Sure , speed ,confidence and ability will hopefully come in time, and so will the rewards.

My practice is %100 cash up front. we willl file the paper work for the patients, but they lay out the $$ upfront and they deal with the insurances checks. This way, we are not doing free dentistry, or waiting 3- 6 months for payment. It also prevents a lot of the insurance -dictated treatment plans. I did work for an "insurance practice" that did insurance fraud, and that is why I left. It wasnt the kind of dentistry that i felt good about when i got home. I was just out of school and didnt know any better. But now I do, and I chose an opportunity that fits my vision and goals that I had always considered.

larry

 

[aileen]

If you accept $325 from insurance on a $800 crown fee and not charge the patient, it's considered INSURANCE FRAUD. I know it's done but those are the dumb dentists, don't get involved.

It's not insurance fraud for some dental insurance plans such as union or government issued plans. In fact if you charge your pt's, IT'S fraud. The contract says the union or government covers 100% of any tx (preventive, basic, and major), so you cannot charge the pt a penny. For example, 32BJ (name of a union) pays $275 for a crown and you do not charge the pt for the difference.

 

[thisisit]

It's not insurance fraud for some dental insurance plans such as union or government issued plans. In fact if you charge your pt's, IT'S fraud. The contract says the union or government covers 100% of any tx (preventive, basic, and major), so you cannot charge the pt a penny. For example, 32BJ (name of a union) pays $275 for a crown and you do not charge the pt for the difference.

Incorrect again. You do not charge the patient if you have a contract with those unions or government or whatever( it seems like an HMO plan to me). If you do not have a contract, you can charge whatever you like for a crown and be paid for the whole fee (Insurance and patient). Check out this link, I wrote it a while back:

http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=97048&highlight=FYI+thisisit

 

[aileen]

Incorrect again. You do not charge the patient if you have a contract with those unions or government or whatever( it seems like an HMO plan to me). If you do not have a contract, you can charge whatever you like for a crown and be paid for the whole fee (Insurance and patient). Check out this link, I wrote it a while back:

http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=97048&highlight=FYI+thisisit

I thought I said "CONTRACT SAYS"... and that meant 'I do have a contract (in network) with those insurances.

 

[blankguy]

How many new grads end up in corporate dentistry(like Gentle Dental in Boston)?? How much do these chains pay for new associates?

 

[critterbug]

How many new grads end up in corporate dentistry(like Gentle Dental in Boston)?? How much do these chains pay for new associates?

Good question. However, I have heard those places are notorious for picking up bad habits..... Not a good "learning experience" for a fresh grad. Personally, I will take less money to have a dentist "take me under his/her wing". But I have heard those dental chains pay OK for fresh grads, but do you really want to sell your soul? (so to speak)

 

[thisisit]

do what you can to gain experience. confidence, and speed. Do not expect to right away find a dentist to take you under his/her wing and teach you everything you need to know about the business of dentistry. Take any job offered to you that lets you make decisions based on your OWN professional opinion. The pay should not matter in the first year. Look at it as a residency. Try to stay away from offices that have a written protocol to follow for treating ALL patients. Other than going through the normal steps (Emergency care, exam-xrays-treatment planning, perio, non-emergency endo, restorative, replacement) any other written policy is to make you do as the OTHER dentist does. This can be prescription for disaster. Many of these chain offices want you to do the high production procdures first (crown before perio is common thing) and will terminate you if you do low fee procedures first. Don't sell your soul is correct but don't be surprised if mentors are not lined up at your graduation. You can do it...

 

[larryphrank]

Well said, Thisisit,
chain practices are usually high insurance based, low fees, high production....
A new grad will find themselves trying to compete with speed, dificult procedures...They will also be pressured for production. Its like forming bad habbits right out of school. Im not saying all chains are bad, or all dentsists in these chains are like this, but beware. Like thisisit said, dentists will be forced into making decisions based on production (skipping procedures, unethical). Ultimately it will cathc up to you.
larry

 

[blankguy]

So how many people (or percent) of the class end up in such corporate dentistry places?

Is it a deadend job?

 

[busupshot83]

Great post. I'd actually broaden the range to $70-120,000. That pretty much covers the bases for associates, even if the variables are thrown into play.

gavin, you have a beautiful daughter

 

[blankguy]

gavin, you have a beautiful daughter

Huh? What does this have to do with this thread?

 

[Dr.SpongeBobDDS]

blankguy, you have a beautiful tiger

 

[busupshot83]

Huh? What does this have to do with this thread?

my bad, i just saw his avatar. continue on.

 

[blankguy]

blankguy, you have a beautiful tiger

I know

Going back to the topic. I just talked to the same friend that was working at Gentle Dental, he is making 4K biweekly which comes out to about 96K yearly. Last year he started at Gentle Dental in the 50's.

 

[thisisit]

So how many people (or percent) of the class end up in such corporate dentistry places?

Is it a deadend job?

what difference does it make? I fail to understand the importance of a percentage? When I graduated, some went to the military, some went to work for their daddy, some went to Indian reservations, some worked for Sears (still do), some did the associate thing (myself included), and some worked for big chains (corporate?). Read my last post. It makes no difference where you go after graduation. What's most important is where you will be in 10 years.

To make a good living in dentistry, YOU NEED TO OWN YOUR OWN PRACTICE. You can't be a successful dentist/businessman right out of school. So you need experience. Anyone letting you gain that experience should not be ruled out. I personally had 2 two-day a week jobs and worked for a temping agency another 2 days. I worked 6 days a week for 5 years. I once counted that I had seen the inside of more than 50 different dental offices and worked in many of them as a dentist/hygienist. This experience helped me immensely. I knew what kind of associateship to keep and what kind to expunge. When it came down to buying one of those practices, I knew which one was a good value. I have heard people getting great experience at Heartland centers. I have also heard some bad things about some other chains. So do your research and start working. If you don't like what you see, you are only a 2 week notice away from the next job. The advantage you guys have over my generation is that there is actually a shortage of dentist. I couldn't find a job when I got out in 92 so I had to temp and do hygiene.

 

[ip]

I'll chime in here.

After graduating I went to work at Gentle Dental, as did probably 4 others from my class. Alot went back to California and I'd heard that many went to work for Western Dental which is the West Coast version of Gentle.

Gentle started me off at $300/day (~75k/year) with it being my decision of when to go on percentage of collections. The problem was that I was specifically ONLY given patients under 30 years old or pain in the but patients with no money. When I brought it up, it was denied. With that being the case, it was impossible to produce at a level where it would be worth it to move onto percentage and I stayed on salary for the 5 or 6 months that I was there.

That being said, I know of a couple people who have had good experiences with Gentle. I think it really depends on which office you go to. I was never really pressured into producing more (probably b/c the director knew it was impossible to do with my patients!) but it was not a situation that was conducive to learning and advancement.

My advice would be to find a dentist that WANTS to help you learn. Find someone who wants to expand their practice, not someone who needs a dentist to help with overflow. Big difference.

But my real advice is to figure out which specialty you like, and go that route.

 

[critterbug]

good post ip

 

[larryphrank]

I agree. focus on 10 years from now, but
Obviously you have to start paying back your loans, and get experience, so most will land some average job initially.

Look at overall salary, but dont forget the following also:

Do you have to pay your own lab bills?
Any benefits packages (health insuranc, malpractice insurance, continuing ed classes, time off, bonuses, incentive plans, job security)
Some type of future plan (raises, evaluations, when 3 months, 6 months...)
potentila buy in, partnerships
there are so many othe rthings i cant think of now, but overall salary is just the beginning


also quality of life

who takes call? how often? do you get paid extra if you go in in the middle of the night? office hours (sundays? til 10 pm?)
Hours worked per week? remember, salary is salary, so, if yur making $100,000/yr but working 60 hrs a week, may want to reconsider
Emergencies during lunch hour



larry

 

[heyyah]

In the previous posts people had said that new associates made on average about 100k (80-120). Is it more like 50k-75K if you go to work for a national chain practice.
Thanks.

 

[ip]

In the previous posts people had said that new associates made on average about 100k (80-120). Is it more like 50k-75K if you go to work for a national chain practice.
Thanks.

For a chain type of place I'd say 75 is average. 50 would be in a bad situation in a low income area. Keep in mind that I was getting 75 but was salaried. If you are unsure of the place insist on a salary to pay the bills. If the employer is hiring in good faith, they should have no problem doing that for you until patient load picks up.

After a couple months working, producing 1500/day shouldn't be a problem with fees for 2-3 surface composites in the 200-300 range. That would work out to ~500/day assuming decent collection dept., which comes to well over 100k.

 

[Col Sanders]

In the previous posts people had said that new associates made on average about 100k (80-120). Is it more like 50k-75K if you go to work for a national chain practice.
Thanks.

50-75K after paying 100-300k for dental school is exactly why grads shouldnt sell themselves out and go work for dentalmarts. If you want to make 40-50k do a GPR or AEGD. By the time your done, you should be competent enough to open your own practice and keep your autonomy.

 

[ip]

50-75K after paying 100-300k for dental school is exactly why grads shouldnt sell themselves out and go work for dentalmarts. If you want to make 40-50k do a GPR or AEGD. By the time your done, you should be competent enough to open your own practice and keep your autonomy.

100%.

I realize that more school isn't what most people graduating dental school have in mind but truuuuuust me, it's needed. I am absolutely convinced that dentistry should have a mandatory 1 year internship like medicine does.

Even though grads think they know everything, the real learning only starts following graduation. A year of GPR or AEGD is invaluable IMO. In fact, I'm doing a 3 year residency in Implant Dentistry. No specialty but implants are the future and I'm getting more implant training than perio, OS, or prosth.

Go on and get more schooling. It goes by very fast and I've never met anyone regret it.

 

[blankguy]

Could you eloborate on how GPR and AEGD is an advantage? Does it mean higher starting point(i.e. higher salary)?

Also the reason why I ask for percentages is to get an overview of what people end up doing fresh out of dental school. You could talk about working for corporate dentistry but if it turns out that say only 5% end up working for them then it is highly unlikely that I would end up there.

 

[ip]

Yes, it does usually mean a higher starting point b/c you are faster, more knowledgable and more efficient at profitable procedures. The confidence you gain through extra education is also something unquantifiable.

Maybe some have bigger balls than me but I'm happy that for my first few full mouth reconstructions I have someone nearby who I can turn to. Also happy that I've read the theory behind it.

Anyone can do a procedure. It's knowing what to do when things go wrong that separates the good dentists from bad ones.

 

[blankguy]

Yes, it does usually mean a higher starting point b/c you are faster, more knowledgable and more efficient at profitable procedures. The confidence you gain through extra education is also something unquantifiable.

Maybe some have bigger balls than me but I'm happy that for my first few full mouth reconstructions I have someone nearby who I can turn to. Also happy that I've read the theory behind it.

Anyone can do a procedure. It's knowing what to do when things go wrong that separates the good dentists from bad ones.

I thought it was good dentists are open to learning constantly while mediocre ones are not?
Not to be obnoxious but wouldn't patients be pissed off if you messed up and had to refer him/her to a specialist?

 

[ip]

I thought it was good dentists are open to learning constantly while mediocre ones are not?
Not to be obnoxious but wouldn't patients be pissed off if you messed up and had to refer him/her to a specialist?

I'm not catching what you mean. I think you misunderstood me.

 

[blankguy]

Sorry, what I noticed at least from the dentist I've observed and met so far is that the good dentist seem to be very openminded and constantly keeping themselves up to date by attenting continuing ed workshops(is that what it is called) offered by the dental schools. This seems to be the case from the dentist that I've observed and gotten to know a little better than others. It has nothing to do with GPR or AEGD.

 

[ip]

Of course but that's like saying that success comes to those who have "drive", which has nothing to do with education. Different animals entirely.

I'm still not sure what you meant about referring to a specialist after screwing up. You screw up and of course they'll be upset. That's why furthering your education is so important. Become very competent at procedures you want to do while in school, even if it means post-grad.

 

[toothcaries]

a friend took home around $180,000...making 30% off production.
(worked in one of those hmo mills)