Atlas Shrugged-anybody read it recently

[pd4emergence]

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I picked this up at the book store the other day. I read some of it a long time ago because I had to. It's amazing how someone's point of view changes as they move through life. I know mine has. The first time I read it (or as little of it as I could get by with) I wondered why someone would write a 1000 page book that espouses capitalism and individualism as an ideal. I took these ideals for granted at the time. Here is a quote. It's a long quote from a long book. I would recommend everybody who has not read this book to pick it up.


"I quit when medicine was placed under State control, some years ago,” said Dr. Hendricks. “Do you know what it takes to perform a brain operation? Do you know the kinds of skill it demands, and the years of passionate, merciless, excruciating devotion that go to acquire that skill? That was what I would not place at the disposal of men whose sole qualification to rule me was their capacity to spout the fraudulent generalities that got them elected to the privilege of enforcing their wishes at the point of a gun. I would not let them dictate the purpose for which my years of study had been spent, or the conditions of my work, or my choice of patients, or the amount of my reward. I observed that in all the discussions that preceded the enslavement of medicine, men discussed everything-except the desires of the doctors. Men considered only the 'welfare' of the patients, with no thought for those who were to provide it. That a doctor should have any right, desire or choice in the matter, was regarded as irrelevant selfishness; his is not to choose, they said, only 'to serve'...I have often wondered at the smugness with which people assert their right to enslave me, to control my work, to force my will, to violate my conscience, to stifle my mind--yet what is it that they expect to depend on, when they lie on an operating table under my hands? Their moral code has taught them to believe that it is safe to rely on the virtue of their victims...Let them discover the kind of doctors that their system will now produce. Let them discover, in their operating rooms and hospital wards, that it is not safe to place their lives in the hands of a man whose life they have throttled. It is not safe, if he is the sort of man who resents it-and still less safe, if he is the sort who doesn't."

 

[2win]

I picked this up at the book store the other day. I read some of it a long time ago because I had to. It's amazing how someone's point of view changes as they move through life. I know mine has. The first time I read it (or as little of it as I could get by with) I wondered why someone would write a 1000 page book that espouses capitalism and individualism as an ideal. I took these ideals for granted at the time. Here is a quote. It's a long quote from a long book. I would recommend everybody who has not read this book to pick it up.


"I quit when medicine was placed under State control, some years ago,” said Dr. Hendricks. “Do you know what it takes to perform a brain operation? Do you know the kinds of skill it demands, and the years of passionate, merciless, excruciating devotion that go to acquire that skill? That was what I would not place at the disposal of men whose sole qualification to rule me was their capacity to spout the fraudulent generalities that got them elected to the privilege of enforcing their wishes at the point of a gun. I would not let them dictate the purpose for which my years of study had been spent, or the conditions of my work, or my choice of patients, or the amount of my reward. I observed that in all the discussions that preceded the enslavement of medicine, men discussed everything-except the desires of the doctors. Men considered only the 'welfare' of the patients, with no thought for those who were to provide it. That a doctor should have any right, desire or choice in the matter, was regarded as irrelevant selfishness; his is not to choose, they said, only 'to serve'...I have often wondered at the smugness with which people assert their right to enslave me, to control my work, to force my will, to violate my conscience, to stifle my mind--yet what is it that they expect to depend on, when they lie on an operating table under my hands? Their moral code has taught them to believe that it is safe to rely on the virtue of their victims...Let them discover the kind of doctors that their system will now produce. Let them discover, in their operating rooms and hospital wards, that it is not safe to place their lives in the hands of a man whose life they have throttled. It is not safe, if he is the sort of man who resents it-and still less safe, if he is the sort who doesn't."

I am waiting my turn - my wife is reading it. So far from our conversations it is an awesome book. I found about Atlas shrugged from this forum and I have to say to the original poster THANK YOU.

 

[Camel]

I am waiting my turn - my wife is reading it. So far from our conversations it is an awesome book. I found about Atlas shrugged from this forum and I have to say to the original poster THANK YOU.

It is in my e-book queue... Once residency interviews end, I will jump on it. GREAT quote. Very thought-provoking. Ideally, that's what our society should promote (thinking.).

Happy holidays to all!

 

[pd4emergence]

I am waiting my turn - my wife is reading it. So far from our conversations it is an awesome book. I found about Atlas shrugged from this forum and I have to say to the original poster THANK YOU.

That's funny. I totally missed the old thread. Here it is. There were some good posts in this thread. It's also funny that that same quote keeps coming up. http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=649632&highlight=atlas+shrugged

 

[scudrunner]

I have this book sitting on my night stand, but have not been able to find the time to start reading it. Plus, it's so long that I think by the time I get to the end I will have forgotten the beginning. Maybe I'll look for the mp3 or cd version.

 

[2win]

I have this book sitting on my night stand, but have not been able to find the time to start reading it. Plus, it's so long that I think by the time I get to the end I will have forgotten the beginning. Maybe I'll look for the mp3 or cd version.

My wife said the same but after you start to read it you cannot stop.
Try it and you'll find astonishing similarities with our present events.

 

[bigdan]

Haven't gotten to Atlas yet, but I'm sure I will. I was getting so frazzled trying to read anesthesia stuff during my intern year (which is right now) - none of it made sense unless I was doing my anesthesia month. Anyways, as a way to relax a bit, I picked up Fountainhead, the book that preceeded Atlas by several years.

Awesome. I'm really enjoying it, and I want to echo what pd4e said about how your point of view changes over time...and how relevant the gestalt of what's discussed by Rand in 1943 is even today. I'm glad I picked it up.

dc

 

[WNT Signaling]

I almost died of laughter when I saw this thread because I didn’t believe that all the anesthesiologists, or at least the ones that post in here, could get any more conservative, but you’ve all proved me wrong

 

[Eta Carinae]

I almost died of laughter when I saw this thread because I didn’t believe that all the anesthesiologists, or at least the ones that post in here, could get any more conservative, but you’ve all proved me wrong

except those of us from the underground...the resistance...






🙂

 

[Eta Carinae]

I picked this up at the book store the other day.

it's on my honey-do list

you know, right after buying gold.

 

[pd4emergence]

I almost died of laughter when I saw this thread because I didn’t believe that all the anesthesiologists, or at least the ones that post in here, could get any more conservative, but you’ve all proved me wrong

Conservatism is not the issue here. It's the increased government intervention in our daily lives, practices, and businesses. That is the fault of both sides of the aisle. Conservatives had their chance but did nothing but fight for the status quo. We can't continue going down the same road we are on. With the current administration and its total control of the House and Senate, we have just increased the speed at which we are traveling. Entitlements and social programs that do nothing but encourage a whole subset of the population to not be productive will eventually ruin our way of life. Increased government control of businesses (including health care) will eventually stifle entrepreneurship and our economy. I believe we are in for some tough times. The fact that people have decided to let the government take care of them instead of taking care of themselves is scary.

 

[Eta Carinae]

hmm, Ayn Rand...

Denounces God as elementary school student
Vicious contempt for Immanuel Kant

At age 49 while married, commences adulterous affair with 19 yr-old college kid who was also married.


Aptly summarized by British journalist, Johann Hari as:

"a damaged woman, a crazed,

pitiable charlatan

with an amphetamine addiction feeding her natural paranoia and aggression, and
surrounded by a "tightly policed cult of young people" complete with show-trials"

I like the premise of the book so far,

My only point of confusion is

How this woman came to be the darling of the Bible-thumping movement.

Bible in one hand, Ayn Rand in the other...😱?

 

[pgg]

Yeah, she was crazy all right. But even crazy people aren't wrong all the time and she does make good points.

The above quote appears on doctor forums all the time. On the surface it's hard not to agree with it, but its predictions just don't mesh with reality.

If you look at western countries with socialized medicine, it's not a completely unmitigated disaster.

They just chose to accept very high taxes and overall poorer access/care in return for their holy grail of universal coverage. Such is the right of any democratic nation, however stupid I think it is. It's certainly not a bargain I want to see the United States make ... but we have to admit that it hasn't turned physicians in those countries into beat-down, depressed, soulless incompetents (or worse, malicious charlatans as the end of the passage implies is inevitable).

I haven't read Ayn Rand since high school, but even then I could see that she wasn't all there, and that her hyperbole was just as strident as that of the people she railed against (if 180 degrees in the other direction).

 

[deleted126335]

hmm, Ayn Rand...


My only point of confusion is

How this woman came to be the darling of the Bible-thumping movement.

Bible in one hand, Ayn Rand in the other...😱?

She is not. Ayn Rand was an avowed atheist.

Political conservatism and capitalism (traits that describe ayn rand fans and others) don't necessarily equate to religious conservatism.

 

[Narcotized]

it's on my honey-do list

you know, right after buying gold.

.

 

[Eta Carinae]

Wait a sec; if you are from the non-conservative underground that believes Obama has us in the right direction, then no need to buy gold like those of us that see a "conservative" monetary collapse coming, right? 🙂

I'm more independent than liberal. I'm sort of center-right.

No I don't believe in maximal interventionalism.

Nor do I support many of Obama's policies.

and no, I do not support handouts. I believe very much in capitalism but believe it can be it's own downfall if not appropriately regulated (ie. wallstreet, derivatives trading, holding 99.5% of the population hostage so the govt has no choice but to provide corporate welfare).

I do NOT believe in entitlements!!!

But I also like to think for myself.
Talking heads don't interpret the constitution for me-
I go directly to the Library of Congress website.

AND

I don't believe in using religion as a means of holding people to ransom
to support your political agenda.

In the perfect world, Ron Paul would be the closest candidate to being president.

AND I was being sarcastic when I mentioned buying gold. 🙄

I think the mad rush to buy gold is hilarious and reflects the sway
that certain political propaganda machines have over a vast proportion
of the religious right.

Again, I like to think for myself.


MERRY CHRISTMAS!

 

[pgg]

Wait a sec; if you are from the non-conservative underground that believes Obama has us in the right direction, then no need to buy gold like those of us that see a "conservative" monetary collapse coming, right? 🙂

Last week someone earnestly told me that

- The time to buy gold was when TV was saturated with Gold4Cash commercials.
- Now that the commercials are all from companies encouraging us to buy gold, it's time to sell.

There's a certain disturbing logic in that. I wasn't quite sure what to say, except that I think a lot of goldbugs are going to be very distraught when we go through a period of deflation rather than inflation.

 

[Narcotized]

In the perfect world, Ron Paul would be the closest candidate to being president.

O, Hell yes!!

But don't be sarcastic about buying gold. It will go to thousands of dollars per ounce. You'll be wiping your rear with that green stuff they print.

 

[Gern Blansten]

Read Atlas Shrugged...twice. Then moved to Galt's Gulch.

 

[coprolalia]

Yeah, she was crazy all right. But even crazy people aren't wrong all the time and she does make good points.

The above quote appears on doctor forums all the time. On the surface it's hard not to agree with it, but its predictions just don't mesh with reality.

If you look at western countries with socialized medicine, it's not a completely unmitigated disaster.

They just chose to accept very high taxes and overall poorer access/care in return for their holy grail of universal coverage. Such is the right of any democratic nation, however stupid I think it is. It's certainly not a bargain I want to see the United States make ... but we have to admit that it hasn't turned physicians in those countries into beat-down, depressed, soulless incompetents (or worse, malicious charlatans as the end of the passage implies is inevitable).

I haven't read Ayn Rand since high school, but even then I could see that she wasn't all there, and that her hyperbole was just as strident as that of the people she railed against (if 180 degrees in the other direction).

No, but it has turned many of them to the U.S. where they can actually get a better reward for their hard work... and the ones that choose to stay behind, well, they just don't work quite as hard as we do, do they? Be honest.

-copro

 

[dhb]

They just chose to accept very high taxes and overall poorer access/care in return for their holy grail of universal coverage.

I'm always surprised when i see people talking about the sky high taxes we pay, can you tell me how much taxes you pay? upper bracket is 35% + state taxes + college fund + health care and you're close to 50% which is thesame as the average european country.
The only difference maybe is that here you cost your employer 33% more that yor pre-tax salary because that's what he pays for your social security (don't know if it's the same in the US)

 

[pd4emergence]

I'm always surprised when i see people talking about the sky high taxes we pay, can you tell me how much taxes you pay? upper bracket is 35% + state taxes + college fund + health care and you're close to 50% which is thesame as the average european country.
The only difference maybe is that here you cost your employer 33% more that yor pre-tax salary because that's what he pays for your social security (don't know if it's the same in the US)

The taxes here are graduated, even though someone is in the 35% tax bracket they only pay 35% taxes on all dollars made over 372k (if they are married). Here is the breakdown.

10% on income between $0 and $8,350
15% on the income between $8,350 and $33,950; plus $835
25% on the income between $33,950 and $82,250; plus $4,675
28% on the income between $82,250 and $171,550; plus $16,750
33% on the income between $171,550 and $372,950; plus $41,754
35% on the income over $372,950; plus $108,216

The actual tax rate is not 35% for just federal taxes. We fund college ourselves and don't have to pay into a national system. Health care costs are all over the board depending on the insurer and the plan. The thing is our health insurance payments are deductible or can be taken out pre tax. I looked at my taxes last year and added up federal and state my actual tax rate after deductions was about 32-34%. As for social security/medicare we pay a portion of this tax as does our employer or group. The income level is capped at 107k and we don't pay social security taxes on money made over that level. I paid about 7k. Taxes suck but they are still comparatively low here. That is not to say that we don't need to chuck our whole complicated system and start over. But that is a whole different issue.

 

[Robert Loblaw]

hmm, Ayn Rand...

Denounces God as elementary school student
Vicious contempt for Immanuel Kant

At age 49 while married, commences adulterous affair with 19 yr-old college kid who was also married.


Aptly summarized by British journalist, Johann Hari as:

"a damaged woman, a crazed,

pitiable charlatan

with an amphetamine addiction feeding her natural paranoia and aggression, and
surrounded by a "tightly policed cult of young people" complete with show-trials"

I like the premise of the book so far,

My only point of confusion is

How this woman came to be the darling of the Bible-thumping movement.

Bible in one hand, Ayn Rand in the other...😱?

anyone who has learned enough about the world to denounce god by the age of 12 is clearly a genius. the depth and maturity of thought required to arrive at this conclusion is generally not present in children.

 

[McPoyle]

Looks like i got both ends covered this year. I got both Atlas Shrugged and The Jungle for christmas... I feel conflicted...

 

[pgy13]

I'm always surprised when i see people talking about the sky high taxes we pay, can you tell me how much taxes you pay? upper bracket is 35% + state taxes + college fund + health care and you're close to 50% which is thesame as the average european country.
The only difference maybe is that here you cost your employer 33% more that yor pre-tax salary because that's what he pays for your social security (don't know if it's the same in the US)

another difference...undergraduate and medical school education are FREE. So you're not starting out with $100K or more of debt.

 

[Eta Carinae]

anyone who has learned enough about the world to denounce god by the age of 12 is clearly a genius. the depth and maturity of thought required to arrive at this conclusion is generally not present in children.

you bring up a good point, however, the denunciation of religion as a child does not necessarily suggest that she was intellectually superior.

To begin with, there is nothing to suggest that at that age she had completed the requisite rigorous philosophical inquiry/investigation into the arguments for or against deism to have arrived at her conclusion.

By all accounts, her premature denunciation of a "god" was a reflexive response to the social and financial demotion her family experienced at the hands of the tyrannical communist subjugation of the Russian elite.

Much like my repeated denunciations of a "god" when my parents dropped me off at boarding school at the age of 10 , it is not unusual for anyone, including children, to feel betrayed by the apocryphal personification of their most callow desires. You know, the ersatz archetype of a pot-bellied, no-brain santa whose job it is to make us all happy and acquiesce to our every whim.

As soon as this santa fails to conform to our misguided miscontruances of him, suddenly there is no "god". In many cases, in the face of life-altering tragedies, such as children in today's Sudan or today's Cambodian child sex slave trade, there is no feasible alternative...it seems.

Case in point my ex abandoned his allegiance to his catholic faith at the loss of his mother when he was 6. He is no genius (no ill feelings there).

Denouncing a "god" (whatever interpretation of deity that might have been) as a child does not merit the status of genius. I've been there, others have...as children.

PS: I have since adjusted my stance on Deism based on true interpretations of the REAL GOD. No childhood fantasies here.

 

[Eta Carinae]

That being said,

In her day, Rand was dismissed as an immoral lunatic by the religious right.

I don't understand how she has become the heroine of the "fair and balanced" crowd; Rand interspersed with Bible verses, interspersed with romanticism about the Alaskan landscape...

"the soft periwinkle glow of the Alaskan morning"

 

[Intubate]

anyone who has learned enough about the world to denounce god by the age of 12 is clearly a genius. the depth and maturity of thought required to arrive at this conclusion is generally not present in children.

Any seven or eight year old who likes dinosaurs can read the first page of the bible and realize that it is a work of fiction.

 

[amyl]

atlas shrugged is quite simply the best book i have ever read. its ideals are the basis of my libertarian values. it, at least for me, has nothing to do w relgion. i dont believe in a god that wants me to sit on my ass and live off of the hard work of my brother Rearden.
there is a very fine line between genius and crazy, maybe rand walked on both sides of that line but far be it from me to judge that. i for one appreciate the contributions she has made.

 

[coprolalia]

atlas shrugged is quite simply the best book i have ever read. its ideals are the basis of my libertarian values. it, at least for me, has nothing to do w relgion. i dont believe in a god that wants me to sit on my ass and live off of the hard work of my brother Rearden.
there is a very fine line between genius and crazy, maybe rand walked on both sides of that line but far be it from me to judge that. i for one appreciate the contributions she has made.

😍

I'm in love...

-copro

 

[dhb]

Again 😱
😉

 

[Eta Carinae]

atlas shrugged is quite simply the best book i have ever read. its ideals are the basis of my libertarian values. it, at least for me, has nothing to do w relgion. i dont believe in a god that wants me to sit on my ass and live off of the hard work of my brother Rearden.
there is a very fine line between genius and crazy, maybe rand walked on both sides of that line but far be it from me to judge that. i for one appreciate the contributions she has made.

Nor do I or anyone else in their right mind.

 

[Eta Carinae]

[YOUTUBE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MMH8SxpeJ9Y[/YOUTUBE]

hmmmm....