Attrition

[Postictal Raiden]

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I was chatting with one of my friends who attends a medical school and he told me that his class suffered about 8% attrition rate after the first semester. I was wondering if that's a normal thing. If that's true, one would expect only 85-90% of the students who started medical school to eventually earn their degree.

This is terrifying knowing that, for the most part, we are talking about very competitive, motivated individuals.

What's your input?

 

[SpartanWolverine]

I was chatting with one of my friends who attends a medical school and he told me that his class suffered about 8% attrition rate after the first semester. I was wondering if that's a normal thing. If that's true, one would expect only 85-90% of the students who started medical school to eventually earn their degree.

This is terrifying knowing that, for the most part, we are talking about very competitive, motivated individuals.

What's your input?

I have heard the figure is somewhere around 4-8% during the first year and significantly lower after that.

I think there are many possible reasons for people to leave med school, so 90% finishing actually sounds pretty good.

 

[DrEnderW]

This is terrifying knowing that, for the most part, we are talking about very competitive, motivated individuals.

What's your input?

Interestingly, one of the most surprising things for me so far in medical school is how many students there are that I consider "unmotivated" and don't put near the amount of time in that I would consider reasonable. It's not a huge number, but it is noticeable.

It's pretty shocking to hear some students lack of knowledge and I'm only in first year. Study habits and time put in are even worse. There are many students I would never under any circumstances allow them to treat me as a physician. Obviously, I'm not talking about students that had a personal issue come up or a small section of info didn't click for one test.

Furthermore, a lot of people get this notion that pre-clinical grades mean nothing and they are just trying to pass sneak by. All of a sudden, an especially hard test gets served up, you get sick the weekend before a test, or continue to not put in the time and you're failing. There's a pervasive thought process that pre-clinical grades don't matter and that suddenly people are going to transform into the ultimate board gunner 2 months before boards. That leads to a lot of people underestimating tests along the way, IMO.

Of course, I support programs being in place to make sure these things don't happen and to offer a chance at remediation. With that being said, I think you'll be surprised at the differences in work ethic between students.

 

[ChineseKid]

wow.
you think that finally getting into medical school, something that they have been working towards for a long time, would deem dedication and hard work!
hopefully I won't be like that! 😱

 

[Isha2018]

Holy Cow! I can't imagine wasting my money and so many years of time just to fail medical school due to poor devotion. Like ChineseKid, I hope I won't be like that! I fully expect a grueling experience, but I also expect to learn fascinating new concepts at a level that will motivate me to learn.

 

[verynice]

I would like to know the attrition rate of active SDNers.

 

[Postictal Raiden]

Yeah, I can't even imagine that after investing all this hard work, time, emotions and sacrifices from my wife I slack off and fail out of med school. I understand that sometimes sh_t happens and things go out of control, but one needs to be proactive and remain on top of their things, so when unexpected events occur, there's some room for error.

There's so much stake on this.

 

[wjs010]

I really don't think it's a lack of intellect. I don't think you can even get into med school without a good intellect. I think it's mainly ethic and determination. Remember, people say it's not the difficulty of the material, but the volume. Volume takes hard work

 

[corpsman33]

I was chatting with one of my friends who attends a medical school and he told me that his class suffered about 8% attrition rate after the first semester. I was wondering if that's a normal thing. If that's true, one would expect only 85-90% of the students who started medical school to eventually earn their degree.

This is terrifying knowing that, for the most part, we are talking about very competitive, motivated individuals.

What's your input?

I know a surprising number of students in my class are there simply because it is "expected" of them. I'd say 25% of my friends here have parents that are physicians and even though all of my friends are very studious, there are several students I know that re-mediated all of first year that fell into the former category (there parents pushed them to be here and it is quite apparent they didn't fully want it themselves). These were students who took a lot of things for granted and didn't put in the effort that I think is necessary to be successful in med school.

But there were also other students who studied there butts off and still ended up failing (although this was a very small percentage), but med school is hard and not everybody can handle it. They make it tough to get in for a reason to screen out anybody who might not be successful, but the screen isn't full proof.

 

[costales]

I haven't met a dumb or lazy med student. Most of the departures in my class were due to personal circumstances, typically involving family or relationships, or a "change of plans".

 

[SLC]

We've lost 3 from my class of 110. One decided he didn't want robe a doctor after all, this was during orientation week, he left and started a PhD that he was also accepted to.

Another just wasn't enjoying it at all, and left during the 4th block I think.

The 3rd really struggled and decided it would be best to withdraw. I don't think he/she saw passing COMLEX as a likely occurrence.

All in all, most everyone has done really well.

 

[Goro]

It's very abnormal. My own schools does everything we can to keep students in, and other schools think along the same lines. I beleive NYCOM is the one that has the high attrition rate.

This may be just a one year oddity. Classes vary from year to year and this group might have had a larger bunch of people who couldn't hack medical school.


I was chatting with one of my friends who attends a medical school and he told me that his class suffered about 8% attrition rate after the first semester. I was wondering if that's a normal thing. If that's true, one would expect only 85-90% of the students who started medical school to eventually earn their degree.

This is very true of my students in the intelligence dep't. The ones who have the most trouble have poor coping skills, and and are very bad at time mgt. They also seemed to have little interest in their success, and some were outright lazy. Only a handful of my students in > 10 years of teacher were outright unable to "get" medical school. Most of those were "legacies".

I haven't met a dumb or lazy med student. Most of the departures in my class were due to personal circumstances, typically involving family or relationships, or a "change of plans".

 

[TreadLightly]

Take a look at page 30 of the AACOM information book. For example, Western U had 340 first years and of those, only 203 graduated... I'm assuming this includes transfers, drop outs, and people repeating a year..so only 59% of the students entering next year will graduate on time/at all?! That's not much more than a coin flip.

It was my understanding that attrition rates over 2-3% at MD schools was considered unusual...So this is pretty scary. If anyone has a copy of the MSAR, it might be listed there.

Compare this with NYIT-COM, which had 300 incoming students and 286 graduates. That's 95%!

 

[deleted480308]

Take a look at page 30 of the AACOM information book. For example, Western U had 340 first years and of those, only 203 graduated... I'm assuming this includes transfers, drop outs, and people repeating a year..so only 59% of the students entering next year will graduate on time/at all?! That's not much more than a coin flip.

It was my understanding that attrition rates over 2-3% at MD schools was considered unusual...So this is pretty scary. If anyone has a copy of the MSAR, it might be listed there.

Compare this with NYIT-COM, which had 300 incoming students and 286 graduates. That's 95%!

I don't have that info book but could the difference between the numbers be influenced by school expansion? i.e, we had 280 graduates this year but due to new campus and enrollment expansions over the last 4 we now accept a class of 340 annually

 

[TreadLightly]

I don't have that info book but could the difference between the numbers be influenced by school expansion? i.e, we had 280 graduates this year but due to new campus and enrollment expansions over the last 4 we now accept a class of 340 annually

Maybe, but either way I would expect that a large part of those 340 would go on to graduate in 4 years. I don't think Western has had anything like that in recent years. But this isn't unique to Western at all, the majority of schools seem to be in the same range. I mentioned NYIT because it had the best graduation rate, so I know that some schools are capable of having a 95% grad rate. So I want to know why the other schools are lagging so far behind.

This is important to me because all of the schools I'm considering seem to have this issue.

Btw, the info book is here: http://www.aacom.org/resources/bookstore/cib/Documents/2014cib/2014 CIB Complete Small.pdf

Page 30 has the chart

 

[Postictal Raiden]

Take a look at page 30 of the AACOM information book. For example, Western U had 340 first years and of those, only 203 graduated... I'm assuming this includes transfers, drop outs, and people repeating a year..so only 59% of the students entering next year will graduate on time/at all?! That's not much more than a coin flip.

It was my understanding that attrition rates over 2-3% at MD schools was considered unusual...So this is pretty scary. If anyone has a copy of the MSAR, it might be listed there.

Compare this with NYIT-COM, which had 300 incoming students and 286 graduates. That's 95%!

I'm pretty sure that the 340 number includes the NW campus and that 203 is only for the Pomona branch. From the school's website, it seems that 220 students started out their first class at the Pomona campus and 105 at the NW branch. 41% attrition is worse than that of Caribbean schools. I won't apply to a school that has more than 10% attrition rate.

 

[Back 5]

I'm not worried about it personally. If students are failing because of poorly worded tests or testable material that came out of the blue, or material that wasn't covered or told wouldn't be tested etc, basically a failing of the professor then I would be worried.

If the students aren't able to hack it, not the schools job to pull them through. Med school is tough. If you fail out after the first semester, be thankful you didn't accrue hundreds of thousands of dollars to find out 2-3 years later.

 

[Postictal Raiden]

Just came across these data http://www.aacom.org/data/Documents/2012-COM-Attrition-Summary.pdf

It seems that the overall attrition rate for DO schools has been held at~2-3% through out the past decade. However, for the the entering class of 2010/2011 the rate increased a little. This could be explained by the opening of new DO programs, increase of class size of existing DO programs, or both.

What do you guys think?

 

[deleted480308]

Just came across these data http://www.aacom.org/data/Documents/2012-COM-Attrition-Summary.pdf

It seems that the overall attrition rate for DO schools has been held at~2-3% through out the past decade. However, for the the entering class of 2010/2011 the rate increased a little. This could be explained by the opening of new DO programs, increase of class size of existing DO programs, or both.

What do you guys think?

I could see how expanded enrollment might lead to slightly higher attrition

 

[EnergyDrink]

Interestingly, one of the most surprising things for me so far in medical school is how many students there are that I consider "unmotivated" and don't put near the amount of time in that I would consider reasonable. It's not a huge number, but it is noticeable.

It's pretty shocking to hear some students lack of knowledge and I'm only in first year. Study habits and time put in are even worse. There are many students I would never under any circumstances allow them to treat me as a physician.

I wouldn't trust any M1 treat me as a physician, so that's pretty normal, but eventually most of them will become competent physicians.

 

[Isha2018]

Just came across these data http://www.aacom.org/data/Documents/2012-COM-Attrition-Summary.pdf

It seems that the overall attrition rate for DO schools has been held at~2-3% through out the past decade. However, for the the entering class of 2010/2011 the rate increased a little. This could be explained by the opening of new DO programs, increase of class size of existing DO programs, or both.

What do you guys think?

That sounds like a plausible reason. New schools are untested and unproven. The good news is that the statistics normalized in the subsequent years.

 

[wjs010]

Just came across these data http://www.aacom.org/data/Documents/2012-COM-Attrition-Summary.pdf

It seems that the overall attrition rate for DO schools has been held at~2-3% through out the past decade. However, for the the entering class of 2010/2011 the rate increased a little. This could be explained by the opening of new DO programs, increase of class size of existing DO programs, or both.

What do you guys think?

Sounds like both could happen. To all those who are scared.. We should be. However, you have to be realistic. Not all med students go in determined and try their hardest. Yes it is the most important thing in our lives, but some people still slack off. Hard work and determination I think will be key

 

[BCAA]

Just came across these data http://www.aacom.org/data/Documents/2012-COM-Attrition-Summary.pdf

It seems that the overall attrition rate for DO schools has been held at~2-3% through out the past decade. However, for the the entering class of 2010/2011 the rate increased a little. This could be explained by the opening of new DO programs, increase of class size of existing DO programs, or both.

What do you guys think?

Is total attrition referring to the overall attrition of the 4 year class? Or is it referring to the attrition rate per year. The latter means that out of 100 students, on average, about 88 make it through...?

 

[Isha2018]

Sounds like both could happen. To all those who are scared.. We should be. However, you have to be realistic. Not all med students go in determined and try their hardest. Yes it is the most important thing in our lives, but some people still slack off. Hard work and determination I think will be key

Just being light-hearted and all, but I sure hope I never think going to school is the most important thing in my life! I would place FAMILY in that loftiest of positions. 🙂

 

[DrEnderW]

I wouldn't trust any M1 treat me as a physician, so that's pretty normal, but eventually most of them will become competent physicians.

Haha I wasn't suggesting treat me at the current moment. I meant in the future and specifically meant a very small subset of students.

I was just trying to point out that a lot of students ride the fine line between passing and failing some classes (due to worth ethic). Unforeseen circumstances or a continued lack of studying can tip the scale negatively for those students. I'm not not talking about failing because of health, a family reason, or other personal reasons. I have the upmost respect for people in that situation and empathize with what they are going through. I also fully support dropping out to pursue a difference career if you realize it's not your passion. I was simply noting that I was pretty shocked by the motivation of some students.

Do they have a lot of work ethic still compared to the average Joe? Absolutely. However, there is often (but not always) a dramatic difference between just barely passing and dominating a class. Everyone meets the minimum threshold of intelligence and a lot of first year is just spending the time and effort to shovel in as much as possible.

 

[p30doc]

Nova class of 2013 began with 239, 209 are listed on the match list that is. 87% from start to match. Not sure if more than that graduated or not.

1 classmate died. A few did an extra year for OMM fellowship, then again we resorbed the prior years fellows. Life is funny and you don't always end up on the path you would have picked for yourself.

 

[SurgeDO]

work ethic is far from everything. i have had classmates fail anatomy who practically lived in the anatomy lab. not to scare you, but until you are in medical school, it is hard to understand the nature of the beast.

 

[moto_za]

work ethic is far from everything. i have had classmates fail anatomy who practically lived in the anatomy lab. not to scare you, but until you are in medical school, it is hard to understand the nature of the beast.

Key point is the last sentence 🙂

 

[Temperature101]

work ethic is far from everything. i have had classmates fail anatomy who practically lived in the anatomy lab. not to scare you, but until you are in medical school, it is hard to understand the nature of the beast.

That is scary!

 

[cliquesh]

I think it's pretty hard to fail at most schools. I wouldn't worry about it.

Repetition is key. I just reread my notes 3 to 4 times before each test and I never came anywhere close to failing.

 

[Elisabeth Kate]

Interestingly, one of the most surprising things for me so far in medical school is how many students there are that I consider "unmotivated" and don't put near the amount of time in that I would consider reasonable. It's not a huge number, but it is noticeable.

It's pretty shocking to hear some students lack of knowledge and I'm only in first year. Study habits and time put in are even worse. There are many students I would never under any circumstances allow them to treat me as a physician. Obviously, I'm not talking about students that had a personal issue come up or a small section of info didn't click for one test.

Furthermore, a lot of people get this notion that pre-clinical grades mean nothing and they are just trying to pass sneak by. All of a sudden, an especially hard test gets served up, you get sick the weekend before a test, or continue to not put in the time and you're failing. There's a pervasive thought process that pre-clinical grades don't matter and that suddenly people are going to transform into the ultimate board gunner 2 months before boards. That leads to a lot of people underestimating tests along the way, IMO.

Of course, I support programs being in place to make sure these things don't happen and to offer a chance at remediation. With that being said, I think you'll be surprised at the differences in work ethic between students.

As a 4th year, I think your post is pretty much false. I have yet to meet one med student, either at my school or others, that isn't motivated and doesn't have a good work ethic. Judging other students' study time, especially as a first-year, is really not the smartest thing to do. What YOU consider reasonable isn't what I or others may consider reasonable. We're all different. Not everyone studies the same amount because not everyone has the same study habits, not everyone attends classes, not everyone needs 5-8 read-throughs, etc., etc. To make this statement 4 months into your curriculum (assuming you started in July; if you started school later, then this means even more), is extremely short-sighted and unfair to your classmates.

There are many reasons that schools lose students. For some, it's an adjustment issue, and unfortunately, it is true that in the DO world, some schools dismiss students within the first semester. For others, they realize they don't want to do this after all. Perhaps they're overwhelmed, perhaps they just had a change of heart, who knows. But in my experience, rarely does someone fail out because they're not motivated. Very, very rarely.

 

[Elisabeth Kate]

Holy Cow! I can't imagine wasting my money and so many years of time just to fail medical school due to poor devotion

This almost never happens. Relax. I would say plain "never" and get rid of the "almost," but I'll allow for the possibility that it may have happened to someone.

 

[Temperature101]

Just came across these data http://www.aacom.org/data/Documents/2012-COM-Attrition-Summary.pdf

It seems that the overall attrition rate for DO schools has been held at~2-3% through out the past decade. However, for the the entering class of 2010/2011 the rate increased a little. This could be explained by the opening of new DO programs, increase of class size of existing DO programs, or both.

What do you guys think?

COM
Total Attrition 1st Yr Enrollees 7.69%
Total Attrition 2nd Yr Enrollees 6.49%
Total Attrition 3rd Yr Enrollees 3.25%
Total Attrition 4th Yr Enrollees 1.36%
Total Attrition 4.82%

School # 1 and % is attrition rate

These numbers are somewhat misleading. For instance, consider that school #1 has 100 students. The first year, almost 8 (or 7 students ) dropped out. We are left with 93. Second year, 6 of them dropped out. 3 in 3rd year and 1 in fourth year... That is about 17-18 students, which over 17-18% attrition rate. That seems pretty high to me... Maybe I am wrong in my reasoning... Or are these numbers are students who did not make it the next year?

 

[Postictal Raiden]

COM
Total Attrition 1st Yr Enrollees 7.69%
Total Attrition 2nd Yr Enrollees 6.49%
Total Attrition 3rd Yr Enrollees 3.25%
Total Attrition 4th Yr Enrollees 1.36%
Total Attrition 4.82%

School # 1 and % is attrition rate

These numbers are somewhat misleading. For instance, consider that school #1 has 100 students. The first year, almost 8 (or 7 students ) dropped out. We are left with 93. Second year, 6 of them dropped out. 3 in 3rd year and 1 in fourth year... That is about 17-18 students, which over 17-18% attrition rate. That seems pretty high to me... Maybe I am wrong in my reasoning... Or are these numbers are students who did not make it the next year?

I was wondering the same thing. How can the total attrition rate be less than the first year rate? Did those students who failed return and eventually earn their degree?

I found this study https://www.aamc.org/download/102346/data/. It was done to determine the attrition rate at MD schools. It shows that the graduation rate after 4 years for all MD schools is ~82% (meaning the attrition rate is 18%). However, after 7 years, the graduation rate increases to ~96%.

 

[SurgeDO]

COM
Total Attrition 1st Yr Enrollees 7.69%
Total Attrition 2nd Yr Enrollees 6.49%
Total Attrition 3rd Yr Enrollees 3.25%
Total Attrition 4th Yr Enrollees 1.36%
Total Attrition 4.82%

School # 1 and % is attrition rate

These numbers are somewhat misleading. For instance, consider that school #1 has 100 students. The first year, almost 8 (or 7 students ) dropped out. We are left with 93. Second year, 6 of them dropped out. 3 in 3rd year and 1 in fourth year... That is about 17-18 students, which over 17-18% attrition rate. That seems pretty high to me... Maybe I am wrong in my reasoning... Or are these numbers are students who did not make it the next year?

you should note that this data is self-reported by each COM.

 

[TwinsFan]

I was wondering the same thing. How can the total attrition rate be less than the first year rate? Did those students who failed return and eventually earn their degree?

I found this study https://www.aamc.org/download/102346/data/. It was done to determine the attrition rate at MD schools. It shows that the graduation rate after 4 years for all MD schools is ~82% (meaning the attrition rate is 18%). However, after 7 years, the graduation rate increases to ~96%.

Some of this is because people take a year off for research, are md/phd, take time off for personal reasons or have to remediate some classes. The actual "attrition" rate is very low.

 

[GUH]

COM
Total Attrition 1st Yr Enrollees 7.69%
Total Attrition 2nd Yr Enrollees 6.49%
Total Attrition 3rd Yr Enrollees 3.25%
Total Attrition 4th Yr Enrollees 1.36%
Total Attrition 4.82%

School # 1 and % is attrition rate

These numbers are somewhat misleading. For instance, consider that school #1 has 100 students. The first year, almost 8 (or 7 students ) dropped out. We are left with 93. Second year, 6 of them dropped out. 3 in 3rd year and 1 in fourth year... That is about 17-18 students, which over 17-18% attrition rate. That seems pretty high to me... Maybe I am wrong in my reasoning... Or are these numbers are students who did not make it the next year?

Pretty sure that the 4.82% is the average attrition for all classes in a given year. As in, about 4.8% of all DO students drop out each year.

Which seems really really high considering that you have to make it through 4 years.