AUC vs. Pikeville (american DO school)????

[rc2424]

I have been accepted into next years classes for both AUC and Pikeville. Obviously one being an MD school in the caribbean and one being a DO school in the states. I am just confused as to where I should go to receive the best education. I have heard negatives and positives about both and I am just tyring to get more information. If anyone has any info I would be sooooo happy! Thanks.

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[Bevo]

I guess it really depends on what you see yourself doing in 10 years.

I guess you know about pikeville's location since they mostly accept people who are more likely to stay in that region only.

My personal choice would be pikeville, but you should look into the opportunities you think you'll be applying too.
doesn't seem that you care about the whole "do vs md" destinction. Its all about what opportunities you seek to explore in the future.

g/l

 

[berkeleyboy]

I guess it really depends on what you see yourself doing in 10 years.

I guess you know about pikeville's location since they mostly accept people who are more likely to stay in that region only.

My personal choice would be pikeville, but you should look into the opportunities you think you'll be applying too.
doesn't seem that you care about the whole "do vs md" destinction. Its all about what opportunities you seek to explore in the future.

g/l

This question is easy. Do you want to be a DO? or an IMG? simple. I would pick AUC. but thats just because I wouldn't want to explain the whole DO thing to those not in the medical field. There's a DO school right next to my house in CA that I elected not to go to in favor of SGU.

 

[brendang]

I'd avoid DO schools... The US is the only country that recognizes their training for a reason. I went to school in the Caribbean and it was not a major obstacle in attaining a residency spot in a super-competitive field. From now on, no one would guess that I went to school at Saba. Most people who graduate from a Caribbean school don't even post their diploma in their office... Instead, several other diplomas will typically be elaboratately framed such as my certificate of completion of internship, ophtho residency, american board certification, canadian board certification, fellowship training certification, etc... On the other hand, going the DO route would require you to acknowledge your "sub-par" premedical background to every patient who inquires what the D and the O after your name represents...

 

[FlemishGiant]

Get last year's match list from both schools and see how many of their grads get put into spots that you want to be in. Go from there.

 

[crys20]

I'd avoid DO schools... The US is the only country that recognizes their training for a reason. I went to school in the Caribbean and it was not a major obstacle in attaining a residency spot in a super-competitive field. From now on, no one would guess that I went to school at Saba. Most people who graduate from a Caribbean school don't even post their diploma in their office... Instead, several other diplomas will typically be elaboratately framed such as my certificate of completion of internship, ophtho residency, american board certification, canadian board certification, fellowship training certification, etc... On the other hand, going the DO route would require you to acknowledge your "sub-par" premedical background to every patient who inquires what the D and the O after your name represents...

So, where you went to med school never comes up? The difference between DO and IMG is that a good portion of DOs are proud of their alma mater whereas, as you just made plainly clear, IMGs tend not to be (not displaying your diploma?). The first thing that probably comes to peoples minds when it is let out that you went to a foreign school is that you couldn't get into a US allo school. At least as a DO you can say you just wanted to be a DO for whatever reason, or just wanted to go to a DO school for location preference, etc. And many DOs will tell you that their patients haven't a clue that they're a DO just that they're Dr. so and so. DOs are recognized in countries other than the US. The training is the same as at MD schools in the US and otherwise, and possibly less shady than at places off-shore. So please, stop spreading your somewhat misinformed opinion.

 

[berkeleyboy]

So, where you went to med school never comes up? The difference between DO and IMG is that a good portion of DOs are proud of their alma mater whereas, as you just made plainly clear, IMGs tend not to be (not displaying your diploma?). The first thing that probably comes to peoples minds when it is let out that you went to a foreign school is that you couldn't get into a US allo school. At least as a DO you can say you just wanted to be a DO for whatever reason, or just wanted to go to a DO school for location preference, etc. And many DOs will tell you that their patients haven't a clue that they're a DO just that they're Dr. so and so. DOs are recognized in countries other than the US. The training is the same as at MD schools in the US and otherwise, and possibly less shady than at places off-shore. So please, stop spreading your somewhat misinformed opinion.

oh please, we all know that people both go offshore and DO because they can't get into US allo. How many people in your DO class would go allopathic US if they could? I bet you almost 90% of your class would, same with mine. Lets not even assume at this point most DO students choose to go to DO when they could have gone US allo. The choice thus far is always offshore MD or close to home DO.

Whether you mind having DO versus the standard MD after your name is a personal preference. And for the most part, most lay people do not know what a DO is. Think about it, do you know what an OD is? An OD is an optometrist.

 

[Bevo]

regardless of what people say,

it's your decision ultimatly.

 

[Phil Anthropist]

I've had my disagreements with crys20 and have even taken offense to some of her comments about those who choose to go the Caribbean route instead of the DO route, foreign medical education and foreign medical graduates. However, some of the points crys20 brings up are valid.

brendang, I remember you mentioned that many schools would not interview you for ophthalmology despite your solid record (here and here) . I think it's misleading when you say that going to a Caribbean med school was "not a major obstacle in attaining a residency spot in a super-competitive field." To give the impression that going to the Caribbean will provide no obstacles to prospective students when the match comes around is not accurate. Caribbean students are at a major disadvantage for many of the highly competitive specialties (and yes, this is true for DOs for some allo specialties).

crys20 is correct in saying that DOs are recognized in countries other than the US. You can get that information here.

crys20, I strongly disagree with your generalization that FMGs/IMGs are not proud of their degrees. You are insulting my relatives that attended the best med schools in their own countries, did US residencies AND highly competitive fellowships at excellent hospitals (Mt. Sinai and a Columbia affiliates). In your comment from another thread, "DOs are more respected than FMGs," what reasoning is there for this? Would it be justified to have less respect for my relatives that were essentially recruited by the United States during Vietnam (due to the urgent need for good English-speaking physicians) that trained in excellent United States residencies and fellowships? If this lack of respect for FMGs does exist, it exists for no other reason than discrimination and ethnocentrism.

And even if you limit your negative comment about FMGs to Caribbean graduates, is that really fair? While some applicants matriculate to US osteopathic schools because they choose to even if they were accepted at US allopathic schools, there is a significant portion that would have gone to allopathic medical schools instead. There are Caribbean students who were accepted at osteopathic schools who chose the Caribbean for whatever reason. Sure, some want that MD. But do you have to be so negative toward people who choose the Caribbean because they prefer the MD degree over the DO degree? Do you have to question their desires and motivations to be physicians just because they would prefer an MD degree? It is possible to want the MD degree (for whatever reason) and still have the genuine desire to be an excellent clinician as well as humanitarian motivations. The negative and defensive comments I see from the pre-osteopathic SDN users about those who choose to go to the Caribbean are unfair and judgmental.

brendang, crys20 also has a point in noticing that you seem to want to hide your degree from Saba. Are you not proud of it? Your comment that, "Most people who graduate from a Caribbean school don't even post their diploma in their office..." is unfortunate. I think Caribbean graduates who feel they must hide their education are simply insecure. All the docs I know don't care whether they're working with an FMG, a DO, or a US MD; they care that the one they're working with is a good clinician.

By that same reasoning crys20, your statement seems to have the same attitude ("At least at a DO school you can say you just wanted to be a DO for whatever reason..."). You seem to imply that if you go the DO route you can still hide that you didn't get accepted to a US allo school. If someone says, to use your example, "I went to an osteopathic school for location preference," when in fact the primary reason was because that person was unable to get into a US allopathic school, isn't this person trying to hide something? Why be ashamed of it? Why can't DOs and FMGs be proud that they have received an education that will allow them to practice the art of medicine as physicians? Who cares if they messed up as premeds if they pick themselves up and become good clinicians? People get so caught up trying to defend their education when this is of very little importance. If some arrogant person belittles your degree, so what? As long as you are happy with the path you've chosen and you're a good physician, it doesn't matter what a couple of bad eggs think.

crys20, I also think that you're making a very unfair and unfounded generalization of the clinical training at the main Caribbean schools (e.g., SGU, Ross, AUC, Saba). What is "shady" about the training? The students rotate at hospitals in the United States. If you were talking about some school that had all sorts licensure problems with its graduates and doesn't have solid affiliate hospitals, then yeah, you'd have a point. But your blanketed generalization that off-shore schools have shady training is simply not fair.

I saw this thread earlier and I was going to try to avoid it altogether, but now that I've made it clear that I'm not really on either of your sides, I guess I can expect to be flamed by both sides any minute now!

P.S. I do agree 100% with lmbebo

 

[crys20]

Guys, I'm not claiming to know anything about the training at foreign schools. I said in my post this, and that if that was my option I would go and feel so lucky to have a chance. I'm not knocking anyone who is a FMG, because I'm no stellar applicant myself. I didn't mean to generalize that FMGs are ashamed of their degree, just keying in on the point that the above poster spoke about refraining from hanging up his degree. In no way do I think this is representative of all FMGs.

Phil....I'm sure many FMGs and DOs ARE very proud of where they went to school, most probably feel real lucky to be a doc as well; I know that this is how i would feel in that position (yeah, i'm still a premed guys, what the hell do i know applying in june though to both md and do schools). I think it does maybe hang over SOME people's heads for a year or two (probably not more) that they didn't get into any US MD schools, and this was the point I was trying to make. This is why people will apply 3x before applying DO or foreign, because they don't want to 'settle'. This isn't me at all, just saying that there are some who are like this and who cares.

But yes, all to say I didn't mean to offend or put down anyone. My post was only harsh I think because the post I was responding to seemed pretty inaccurate and derogatory against DOs....Ya can't make those kind of comments and then expect to get no flak for YOUR path of choice.

Oh, P.S., and someone correct me if I'm wrong...But it seems to me that if you want a certain specialty and are a bit picky about where you want to go city-wise, wouldn't you have more of a shot going DO? If you take 3 250 Step I score people, everything the same otherwise, isn't the preference going to go US MD>DO>FMG? Or is that crap?

 

[Megalofyia]

Oh, P.S., and someone correct me if I'm wrong...But it seems to me that if you want a certain specialty and are a bit picky about where you want to go city-wise, wouldn't you have more of a shot going DO? If you take 3 250 Step I score people, everything the same otherwise, isn't the preference going to go US MD>DO>FMG? Or is that crap?

Hmmm... kind of.. that's the general idea... but sometimes it depends on which residency your applying to and the program directors past history with graduates from your school.. So it's also a bit more complicated that just MD>DO>FMG.

I know I was shadowing a doctor who had a resident from Saba under him and the doctor was saying that he's really impressed with students from Saba and would have no hesitancy in accepting them.. This is for a surgery residency too.

 

[Phil Anthropist]

Oh, P.S., and someone correct me if I'm wrong...But it seems to me that if you want a certain specialty and are a bit picky about where you want to go city-wise, wouldn't you have more of a shot going DO? If you take 3 250 Step I score people, everything the same otherwise, isn't the preference going to go US MD>DO>FMG? Or is that crap?

I agree with Mega. Generally, I think that's pretty accurate, but not always. The preference is going to vary greatly from one residency program to another.

Just as a few examples:

If I wanted to do Physical Medicine and Rehabilitation at Northwestern, NYU, Mayo, etc., and I had to choose between the DO route and the Caribbean route, I would go the DO route. DOs match extremely well into PM&R residencies. From my observations it seems like DOs are on an equal plane with the US MDs for that specialty.

If I wanted to match into a residency program in Ohio (e.g., Cleveland Clinic Internal Medicine) and had to choose between OUCOM or the Caribbean, I'd probably choose the former.

If I wanted to have the opportunity to audition at hospitals of the University of Chicago and Northwestern, I would choose CCOM over a Caribbean school.

But if I wanted to do something like *allopathic* ortho, I would go the Caribbean route. Just to be clear, allopathic ortho is extremely hard for both Caribbean and DO students (you're better off going to a US MD school if you want allo ortho). However, the number of FMGs in allopathic ortho is considerably higher than the number of DOs. It's virtually impossible to get allo ortho with either route, but I believe the number coming from the Caribbean is higher than the number from osteopathic schools in recent years.

Some ACGME fellowships are MD-restricted (for example, some IM and surgical fellowships). Depending on the availability of fellowships available (MD-only, MD and DO accepting), I might choose the Caribbean over osteopathic schools.

There are also some programs that do not interview any DOs, but do interview some FMGs. There are also some general surgery programs that seem to be much more MD-friendly (US or FMG) than DO-friendly.

So I would say that US MD > US DO > FMG is generally true, but this hierarchy will vary considerably from one residency program to another.

Anyway, I'm glad we seem to be on better terms. And I'm just a premed too--also with a less than spectacular undergraduate record. US MD is by far my first choice (I will probably apply in a year or two), but there is a good likelihood that I will apply to some foreign medical schools and osteopathic schools as well. We'll see. But good luck with the upcoming application cycle!

Phil

 

[drusso]

I agree with Mega. Generally, I think that's pretty accurate, but not always. The preference is going to vary greatly from one residency program to another.


Some ACGME fellowships are MD-restricted (for example, some IM and surgical fellowships). Depending on the availability of fellowships available (MD-only, MD and DO accepting), I might choose the Caribbean over osteopathic schools.



Phil

This is not entirely accurate. Many ACGME-accredited followships will indeed interview DO's who graduated from AOA-accredited internal medicine residencies, especially if their familiar with the program...ie it's in the same city, etc. Also, a DO who does an ACGME-accredited internal medicine residency (an easy match) is on the same leveled playing field as their MD counterpart.

The biggest problem with going off shore for your medical education is that off-shore schools lack accreditation (LCME or AOA) and increasingly medical education at all levels is becoming "competency-based." It's the new buzzword. And, accreditation is used to validate that a program or school is teaching their students to be competent in the right areas. There is also increasing "linkage" of competencies between levels of education so that medical school competencies reflect residency competencies which reflect fellowship competencies. For example, here are the "core competencies" that any ACGME-accredited residency must ensure:

D. ACGME Competencies (N.B.: Section V. D. does not apply to certain subspecialities) The residency program must require its residents to obtain competence in the six areas listed below to the level expected of a new practitioner. Programs must define the specific knowledge, skills, behaviors, and attitudes required, and provide educational experiences as needed in order for their residents to demonstrate the following:

1. Patient care that is compassionate, appropriate, and effective for the treatment of health programs and the promotion of health;
2. Medical Knowledge about established and evolving biomedical, clinical, and cognate sciences, as well as the application of this knowledge to patience care;
3. Practice-based learning and improvement that involves the investigation and evaluation of care for their patients, the appraisal and assimilation of scientific evidence, and improvements in patient care;
4. Interpersonal and communication skills that result in the effective exchange of information and collaboration with patients, their families, and other health professionals;
5. Professionalism, as manifested through a commitment to carrying out professional responsibilities, adherence to ethical principles, and sensitivity to patients of diverse backgrounds;
6. Systems-based practice, as manifested by actions that demonstrate an awareness of and responsiveness to the larger context and system of health care, as well as the ability to call effectively on other resources in the system to provide optimal health care.

Here are the LCME accreditation standards

You can see that they complement eachother. The AOA (which accredits osteopathic schools) also has a similar (almost identical) set of standards. The implications of graduating from an institution that adheres to these kinds of standards should be considered very carefully by pre-meds.

 

[Phil Anthropist]

This is not entirely accurate.

My fault. What I meant to say was some allopathic fellowships require that you do an ACGME/allopathic residency to be eligible (but you can be either an MD or a DO). I should have used ACGME/allopathic and AOA/osteopathic when I was discussing the residencies and fellowships. I didn't mean "MD-restricted" or "MD-only", which as you are noted are inaccurate. Sorry about the confusion.

Please feel free to correct me if I'm still unclear on something.

 

[berkeleyboy]

I don't think that anyone can say DO > FMG as a general statement. Bottom line is many people think having an MD degree is worth going out of the country for a couple years to attain that degree. Since it is obvious that both DO and FMG have no problem getting primary care positions and both DO and FMGs have a more difficult time getting more competitive specialties, I think the choice boils down to whether one thinks its important to have MD or DO after their name. In my opinion, you may think shallow of me, but its true, I def. feel like after all the work I put in, I want the two initials behind my name that are recognized world wide as a medical doctor. Thats it. pure and simple. If I didn't care that much about it, I would of went to the DO school next to my house and not have to leave beautiful southern California to become a doctor. Look, I'm not saying that FMG > DO, all I'm saying is if someone can't get into US allo, its a personal choice to go out of the country for those initials MD or if you don't care about it than stay near home and become a DO. DO admission stats and admission stats to SGU/AUC/Ross a fairly comparable. Most students do not go foreign b/c they couldn't get into a DO school, they go b/c they couldn't get into US allo.

 

[tRmedic21]

There are the rare students who choose an offshore MD school over both US MD and DO schools. Like me.

Of course, I don't recommend this choice for everyone, and it is very unique to my situation. I wouldn't change it now for anything. We actually had one person in my class who did most of first semester with us and then found out he was accepted into the very school asked about above, the DO school in Pikeville, KY. Unfortunately, though I know his name, I can't remember his email, or I would put you in touch with him. But since he did only one semester at AUC, he might not be able to offer much perspective anyways, other than living conditions on the island.

Overall, there are positives and negatives about each route. Personally, after having been in the healthcare field and seen firsthand the statements some patients make, I wasn't sure I wanted to spend my time explaining that DOs were 'real' doctors to uneducated patients. Also, I want to practice medicine internationally, something that is more difficult as a DO, either because of non-recognition of credentials or limited scope of practice. These are just a few of the reasons, but overall, I made the right choice for me.... as stated above, only you can make the right choice for you. Feel free to email me if you'd like more info on your Caribbean options @ trdoc*removethis*@beachdocs.com and check out some of the pics of my med school adventures @ www.beachdocs.com

Good luck!

 

[berkeleyboy]

There are the rare students who choose an offshore MD school over both US MD and DO schools. Like me.

Of course, I don't recommend this choice for everyone, and it is very unique to my situation. I wouldn't change it now for anything. We actually had one person in my class who did most of first semester with us and then found out he was accepted into the very school asked about above, the DO school in Pikeville, KY. Unfortunately, though I know his name, I can't remember his email, or I would put you in touch with him. But since he did only one semester at AUC, he might not be able to offer much perspective anyways, other than living conditions on the island.

Overall, there are positives and negatives about each route. Personally, after having been in the healthcare field and seen firsthand the statements some patients make, I wasn't sure I wanted to spend my time explaining that DOs were 'real' doctors to uneducated patients. Also, I want to practice medicine internationally, something that is more difficult as a DO, either because of non-recognition of credentials or limited scope of practice. These are just a few of the reasons, but overall, I made the right choice for me.... as stated above, only you can make the right choice for you. Feel free to email me if you'd like more info on your Caribbean options @ trdoc*removethis*@beachdocs.com and check out some of the pics of my med school adventures @ www.beachdocs.com

Good luck!

I've heard of your kind. A rare breed but you guys truley do exist. there are a couple at my school as well. These are some of the most down to earth people you'll ever meet.

 

[crys20]

Anyway, I'm glad we seem to be on better terms. And I'm just a premed too--also with a less than spectacular undergraduate record. US MD is by far my first choice (I will probably apply in a year or two), but there is a good likelihood that I will apply to some foreign medical schools and osteopathic schools as well. We'll see. But good luck with the upcoming application cycle!

oh right on i didn't mean to sound bitchy, i'm really a sweet girl in real life!