Australia to Canada

[JBA]

Over the past few years, I've read a lot on these forums and found them to be a decent source of info. However, one thing I think should be stressed to those early on in their training is that most of what is posted here is based on rumor, word of mouth and stats from CaRMS that need to taken with a grain of salt.
I graduated in 2007 from Australia and matched into my first choice in Canada. All the other Canadian students who wrote the EE, did electives in Canada and went through CaRMS also matched into a top choice. Specialties matched included GS, anesthesia, ortho, rads and FM. In CaRMS 2008 at least it seemed that Australian grads were all over and getting lots of interview opportunities.
While it does look pretty bad when you look at the stats on the CaRMS page keep in mind that many IMG's (esp. non-Canadian born) are applying to almost every specialty with very few Canadian letters of reference etc. For my interviews at one school there were 210 applications for 3 spots, but only 12 were interviewed. Those are very different odds.
My advice, do electives in Canada with the right people (ie program directors), work VERY hard on elective to get a good letter, do well in the EE, apply through CaRMS and get on with it. A little research will help show interest in the specialty as well. Make sure you ahve a back-up and see what happens. Languishing in Australia and grinding through an intership when you want to be in Canada is a worse feeling than taking a shot and not matching.
Good luck!

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[redshifteffect]

Leaving Australia - and not getting a match in Canada either would be worse still.

 

[JBA]

I agree that leaving Australia and not getting anything in Canada would be a bad situation. I am just letting people know that it is possible to match in Canada and for the past two years since CaRMS opened up to internationals, Australian grads have done very well. It seems to me that in many cases the reason grads don't get back to Canada is because they don't seem to prepare for it. That is, they don't arrange exams when they need to and they don't do electives when they should. When you know you want to return to Canada, but don't plan ahead and then miss an exam, you will end up in Australia and unhappy.
Of course many internationals decide to stay in Australia for their training and their is nothing wrong with that at all. Sometimes I think Canadians esp. feel that if they don't get back to Canada for residency they failed. Totally untrue in my opinion. But it remains a fact that going to medical school does not mean you will be a doctor. You need to do some postgrad training. While working as an intern in Australia may seem like postgrad training, it is not. That is what I mean about languishing in Australia is the worst outcome of all.
If you decide to stay in Australia then plan for that and start making contacts etc. so you can get on a training program. If you decide to come back to Canada then start looking into electives and examinations. Either way students need to make a decision and go with it. Nothing is less rewarding than graduating from med school after 4 years of hard work and realizing you are 1-2 years behind your competition in terms of planning for advanced training positions. If you decide to stay for an intern year to make some money or get a little experience then make sure you are using that year as a stepping stone for the next level. I know first hand of Canadians that graduated in 2004 and they are still talking about coming back to Canada. The only problem is that they are yet to get onto a training program in either Canada or Australia. To me, that's the worst situation of all.

 

[willcandude]

good advice. so in essence, plan ahead for the board exam and the elective...

this is only my 1st year in aussie med school, but to me, it seems like med school here is so slack that it seems like i'm learning much less compared with my north amercian counterparts.... anyone else getting that feeling?

 

[redshifteffect]

I agree that leaving Australia and not getting anything in Canada would be a bad situation. I am just letting people know that it is possible to match in Canada and for the past two years since CaRMS opened up to internationals, Australian grads have done very well. It seems to me that in many cases the reason grads don't get back to Canada is because they don't seem to prepare for it. That is, they don't arrange exams when they need to and they don't do electives when they should. When you know you want to return to Canada, but don't plan ahead and then miss an exam, you will end up in Australia and unhappy.
Of course many internationals decide to stay in Australia for their training and their is nothing wrong with that at all. Sometimes I think Canadians esp. feel that if they don't get back to Canada for residency they failed. Totally untrue in my opinion. But it remains a fact that going to medical school does not mean you will be a doctor. You need to do some postgrad training. While working as an intern in Australia may seem like postgrad training, it is not. That is what I mean about languishing in Australia is the worst outcome of all.
If you decide to stay in Australia then plan for that and start making contacts etc. so you can get on a training program. If you decide to come back to Canada then start looking into electives and examinations. Either way students need to make a decision and go with it. Nothing is less rewarding than graduating from med school after 4 years of hard work and realizing you are 1-2 years behind your competition in terms of planning for advanced training positions. If you decide to stay for an intern year to make some money or get a little experience then make sure you are using that year as a stepping stone for the next level. I know first hand of Canadians that graduated in 2004 and they are still talking about coming back to Canada. The only problem is that they are yet to get onto a training program in either Canada or Australia. To me, that's the worst situation of all.

You're quite right, Internship is not post graduate training. Either way it's either a stepping stone to Canada, or a stepping stone to further training in Australia - whichever works out. I think it's pretty important to plan ahead -though not all plans work out the way you want them, so it's always good to have a back up.

 

[Horowitz]

good advice. so in essence, plan ahead for the board exam and the elective...

this is only my 1st year in aussie med school, but to me, it seems like med school here is so slack that it seems like i'm learning much less compared with my north amercian counterparts.... anyone else getting that feeling?

Which Australian med school do u attend? There is a world of difference between Melbourne Uni and Monash, for example, in terms of workload.

 

[JBA]

good advice. so in essence, plan ahead for the board exam and the elective...

this is only my 1st year in aussie med school, but to me, it seems like med school here is so slack that it seems like i'm learning much less compared with my north amercian counterparts.... anyone else getting that feeling?

I know exactly how you feel. I felt that way as well until I did my electives in Canada and the US. If you really learn the things that are taught in the Australian system you'll be far ahead in most areas than the students in North America. They are definitely 'taught' more, but from what I've seen most of this is forgotten by the time it is useful. Using First Aid for Step 1 will fill in holes in basic science knowledge and the Toronto Notes (esp the grey boxes in the margins) definitely help during clinical years.
Without question, your history and physical exam skills will be much better coming from Australia.....

 

[willcandude]

Which Australian med school do u attend? There is a world of difference between Melbourne Uni and Monash, for example, in terms of workload.

queensland uni

 

[JoeNamaMD]

Ignore Will's comments, he's upset that he did not make it to a North American school.

 

[willcandude]

Ignore Will's comments, he's upset that he did not make it to a North American school.

there are many others who share my sentiments. i'm not the minority. Joe, you go into such depths saying how bad US is. Are you just bitter you didn't get into an American school? I'm glad you find comfort in Australia but don't hard-sell that to every reader on the board, who may be contemplating med in aus. You kept saying how you don't understand why people want to go to US from Aus, but frankly speaking, I think you just don't grasp the whole situation. i hope your aussie dream doesn't pop when your mbbs degree finish. get some perspective

 

[JoeNamaMD]

If an Allopathic program in North America did not take you, you should have tried an Osteopathic program instead. Its absolutely silly for North Americans to come to Australia expecting their school to train them for passing the USMLE and getting a US license. DOs are not well recognized outside of North America but for those of you who are North America centric this should not be an issue.

 

[JBA]

The whole idea that North American training is the best in the world comes from one source. North America! For example, while on interviews there were Canadian grads who stated that if they didn't get their first choice in Canada they were just going to do their trainig in Australia. Little do they know that Australia wants Australian grads...not Canadian. Anyway, my point is that so many internationals in Australia belittle the education they get there by saying they don't learn enough, it's not rigorous enough etc. when compared to Canadian schools. As I said before, I have done elective in Canada and the US and there were no students that were showing me up. And I was definitely not a dominate student in Australia.
If you feel you are not learning enough, then grab a textbook and read some more around the topics you are taught. I remember studying for the USMLE and Lipid Storage diseases were always being talked about by the students studying for that exam. The Aussies had never heard of them so they must not be, being trained well enough right? In the hospital, over med school, you know how many times I heard anyone mention a lipid storage disease? Once......
Australia teaches you want you need to know as an intern and does not and shouldn't prepare you for the USMLE. If you think it's going to do that, then don't head to an international school aside from the Carribean.

 

[willcandude]

The whole idea that North American training is the best in the world comes from one source. North America! For example, while on interviews there were Canadian grads who stated that if they didn't get their first choice in Canada they were just going to do their trainig in Australia. Little do they know that Australia wants Australian grads...not Canadian. Anyway, my point is that so many internationals in Australia belittle the education they get there by saying they don't learn enough, it's not rigorous enough etc. when compared to Canadian schools. As I said before, I have done elective in Canada and the US and there were no students that were showing me up. And I was definitely not a dominate student in Australia.
If you feel you are not learning enough, then grab a textbook and read some more around the topics you are taught. I remember studying for the USMLE and Lipid Storage diseases were always being talked about by the students studying for that exam. The Aussies had never heard of them so they must not be, being trained well enough right? In the hospital, over med school, you know how many times I heard anyone mention a lipid storage disease? Once......
Australia teaches you want you need to know as an intern and does not and shouldn't prepare you for the USMLE. If you think it's going to do that, then don't head to an international school aside from the Carribean.

yes i agree. australian med school trains for australian doctors. and that's why i'm already learning extra in spare time. and from what i've gathered from other aussie grads, the extra learning could be significant. i know very well what i'm getting into. i'm merely remarking on the differences (some significant some not) that i've observed and trying to confirm them.

my last post was a response to the inflammatory post by Joe. it was not directed towards you, JBA

JBA, may i ask which uni ur at?

and no i'm not american and i don't want to go to osteopathic school. nor do i want to risk having the stigma of going to carribean schools. i think aussie med educaiton has a strong reputation and good quality teaching. but again, from what i've hgeard from senior students, the reason why there's extra 2 years of residency in australia is because grads start out slower here. i'm not saying it's a bad thing, because that is the system here and it has worked for them.

and in my clinical coaching, i met an UK doctor who said how she finds it surprsing that the students here know much less for their level compared to UK. now i'm not sure how she made the comparision because most UK schools are 5-year programs. or maybe it's just a UQ-specific problem....

 

[JoeNamaMD]

Most of the Grad Entry programs like UQ and Sydney used to be six year programs, when they became four year courses, a significant amount of content was removed. Programs like UNSW have a more comprehensive basic science content than Grad programs.

For people who are dead set on being in North America, the DO route is an excellent alternative, I think if you are going to Oz with the single minded goal of going to North America, you are just wasting your time.

 

[lyndal]

Joe
While I wont disagree on your statement about the DO program as an alternative (I know nothing about it and wont comment) be careful about your assumptions about 6 year vs 4 year programs. I am a graduate of the old 6 year undergrad program and am currnetly teaching in a new 4 year program. We arer teaching at a much higher level of sciences than I ever learned at and at a m,uch greater pace, as our students are already graduates and adult learners. There is certainly no less content in a 4 year program (in ours anyway) it is just that the pace and level of autonomy is significantly increased.

As a comment to everyone - while good quality is consistent, every program in Australia is different. I think trying to make assumptions about Australian students is like making comparisons between US medical schools. They are all very different and I think individuals will have a different experience wherever they study.

Cheers
Lyndal

 

[Ezekiel20]

As someone who went through 3 years of B.Med.Sc before doing GMP at USYD, I am undecided when it comes to the issue of whether there is enough basic sciences in graduate medical programmes in Australia.

I have learnt much more anatomy, pharmacology, physiology, pathology, genetics, microbiology, biochemistry etc in my undergraduate degree than I did in medicine, and these have helped me immensely in med school.

Although a majority of students come from science backgrounds, some do come from commerce, art, law backgrounds. Sometimes I wonder if these people are graduating to become doctors without the basic understand of (for example) microbiology or biochemistry.

On the other hand, I feel that there was a lot of useless memorising back in undergrad. I remember memorising protein structures and signal molecules, as well as various formulae. I would soon forget these, days after the exams were over.

Looking back, I think the GMP were quite good in selecting what was essential knowledge and what was not. We certainly weren't required to memorise protein structures.

If there is any problem with the GMP, I don't think it's lack of content as it is the lack of a competitive environment for the students.

In undergrad where we felt we were competing for spots in medical school, we would study our asses off and see who can get high distinction. But in the GMP, there is a culture of just doing enough to get by.

There are a proportion of highly motivated students who go the extra distance and make sure they understand every concept, but there is also a large proportion of students who work part time, play organised sport, look after their children, and study whenever there is spare time.

There is nothing like the prospect of failing exams to make students study, and the 2nd and 3rd year barrier exams made me study harder than I have before in my life.. but once 4th year comes along, the lack of challenging assessments mean that most people take it as a year of relaxation before starting work as interns.

Having said all that (and I know I've said a lot), medical school is ultimately about training to become competent interns who can later enter further training and become qualified doctors. I mean, how many doctors who are practicing now still remember the structure of peptidoglycan layers of bacteria?

In this regard, I think most Australian programme do a good job. But for the American students who must sit USMLEs to return home, Australian med schools won't be enough.

 

[JoeNamaMD]

Many students in North America enter medical courses without a full degree in science. They all have to take certain prescribed classes before entering medical school which includes a year of General Biology, General Chemistry, Physics, Organic Chemistry, Mathematics, and English Literature. Some schools require applicants to take Physiology and Biochemistry. I took almost all of these classes in the States, I also spent a year studying Medical Science in Queensland before enrolling in UQ's MBBS program. Honestly, I thought the science coursework I completed in the US was sufficient. I hold a Bachelor's degree in a nonscience subject and now am in my final year at UQ.

The Australian undergraduate education system is different from the US in that you only take courses related to your program of study, ie. Economics students only take coursework related to economics. In the US students who study Economics often take courses completely unrelated like Chemistry and Classical Studies. This is one of the reasons why it takes 3 years to get a Bachelor's degree in Australia and 4 years in the US.

But as I said, someone who is fixated on practicing in the US or Canada, and has not gotten into an Allopathic MD program, should consider the DO route. Alas there are too many snobs among the premed community who do not like the idea of being a DO.

 

[redshifteffect]

It's also hard to make judgements based on experience with a single data source. For example I've met an Endocrinologist from Canada who didn't know about the use of ACE Inhibitors in Diabetic patients (a concept any GP here could tell you). That doesn't mean all Endocrinologists from Canada are bad.

I don't know how good the teaching/programme is at UQ, but the doctors I've worked with from there, seem to be fairly competent, and the graduates of my program that did end up taking the USMLE did fairly well.