Australian Medical School Overview?

[Acheron]

Hello all,

I'm an American I have recently begun researching the possibility of studying to acquire an M.D. in Australia.

I really don't have that many facts about AUS med school and I'm looking for help, google doesn't seem to be doing the trick.

In general what are the best of Australia's medical schools? (rankings would be greatly appreciated) and what is the average cost of attendance?

After I receive my degree I'd like to remain in Australia for at least another 5 years or so before returning to the United States... Will I have a lot of difficulty doing this?

Thanks for your input and feel free to add anything else you think that I should know.

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[jhtran]

#1. Australian school doesn't give you MD but rather MBBS, which is the equivalent of MD, but I just want to point that out.

#2. USydney seems to be the best and most expensive. However, there is not a huge difference between the schools.

#3. Some schools have 4-years programs where you need bachelors to attend while others have 6-years programs where you start off from high school. But anyhow, practicing in AUS after licensing will not be a problem.

 

[Acheron]

#1. Australian school doesn't give you MD but rather MBBS, which is the equivalent of MD, but I just want to point that out.

#2. USydney seems to be the best and most expensive. However, there is not a huge difference between the schools.

#3. Some schools have 4-years programs where you need bachelors to attend while others have 6-years programs where you start off from high school. But anyhow, practicing in AUS after licensing will not be a problem.

Thanks for the help. I already have a bachelors. Can you give me numbers in terms of cost? I'm confused about the MBBS. http://www.medicine.unimelb.edu.au/future/md.html

Also, I know the cost of living in Sydney is VERY high by worldwide standards. Is there much discrepancy in cost in a place like Melbourne?

What is a competitive US GPA (on the 4.0 scale) for admissions into an Australian Medical School?

 

[jhtran]

To be honest, I don't know. As you pointed out, the MD-program will not start until 2011, so as of date, MD doesn't exist in Australia school, unless you are referring to their special "MD" program which is equivalent to US MD/PhD. So technically you cannot apply to Melbourne right now.

I think the cost of tuition and living can be obtain from the school's website. I've never been to Australia, so I can't tell you for sure. As for the school provided information, here's USyd:

http://www.medfac.usyd.edu.au/futurestudent/applicant/internat/fees.php

It seems that "you will need to allow for around AUD$18,000 p.a. to cover living costs". How does that compare to your current place?

 

[SFs Own Tone]

MBBS = international MD, if you practice in the US you would use MD.

Melbourne is unique because they are conferring an MD degree without the typical PhD part that other Australian schools would require. Making them more like the US.

The Times Higher Education ranks the Australian med schools as: (in the world)
#17 Melbourne
#22 Monash
#23 Sydney
#28 Australian National University
#31 University of Queensland

As a reference point:
#16 Cornell
#33 Michigan
Pretty high standards.

You should also note that UQ has a new program that is similar to the well known Caribbean schools: 2 years basic sciences in Australia, 2 years of Clinicals in New Orleans. Keep in mind that UQ is ranked (by the Times Higher Education) above places like Michigan and UPenn. The educational opportunity seems fantastic.

Residencies, whether locally in Australia or internationally back in the US, are more tenuous as an IMG. Your performance on the USMLE will be YOUR responsibility as an international student, and it will be a large factor in matching in the US. Every option has pros and cons. If studying medicine in Australia is solely for getting an MD behind your name vs an American DO, then I would do alot more thinking about what's important to you in medicine.

 

[SFs Own Tone]

Thanks for the help. I already have a bachelors. Can you give me numbers in terms of cost? I'm confused about the MBBS. http://www.medicine.unimelb.edu.au/future/md.html

Also, I know the cost of living in Sydney is VERY high by worldwide standards. Is there much discrepancy in cost in a place like Melbourne?

What is a competitive US GPA (on the 4.0 scale) for admissions into an Australian Medical School?

I would think Melbourne is similar, but certainly cheaper. Most major cities are expensive, especially if the school is close to downtown or Central Business District.

The US GPA carries different weight with the Australian schools. Some schools like USyd and UQ use the GPA as a minimum hurdle (around 2.7 for both schools). UQ accepts you solely on your MCAT where as Sydney is 50/50 with MCAT/Interview. The other schools will weigh to a varying degree your GPA.

 

[Acheron]

MBBS = international MD, if you practice in the US you would use MD.

Melbourne is unique because they are conferring an MD degree without the typical PhD part that other Australian schools would require. Making them more like the US.

The Times Higher Education ranks the Australian med schools as: (in the world)
#17 Melbourne
#22 Monash
#23 Sydney
#28 Australian National University
#31 University of Queensland

As a reference point:
#16 Cornell
#33 Michigan
Pretty high standards.

You should also note that UQ has a new program that is similar to the well known Caribbean schools: 2 years basic sciences in Australia, 2 years of Clinicals in New Orleans. Keep in mind that UQ is ranked (by the Times Higher Education) above places like Michigan and UPenn. The educational opportunity seems fantastic.

Residencies, whether locally in Australia or internationally back in the US, are more tenuous as an IMG. Your performance on the USMLE will be YOUR responsibility as an international student, and it will be a large factor in matching in the US. Every option has pros and cons. If studying medicine in Australia is solely for getting an MD behind your name vs an American DO, then I would do alot more thinking about what's important to you in medicine.

I'm looking to do my education and residency in Australia so would I be considered an IMG in Australia? I have no interest whatsoever in matching in the US. I need some time out of this country.

 

[iDream]

I'm looking to do my education and residency in Australia so would I be considered an IMG in Australia? I have no interest whatsoever in matching in the US. I need some time out of this country.

Yes, you would be considered an international student in Australia until you get your PR status.

 

[Acheron]

Yes, you would be considered an international student in Australia until you get your PR status.

What kind of chances to I have at matching to a residency program somewhere in Australia (preferably urban) being an IMG? Considering I graduate somewhere in the top half of my class.

 

[shan564]

A few things -

1. Melbourne's "MD" is equivalent to any Australian "MBBS". Everybody here is somewhat annoyed that Melbourne is calling it "MD", since that seems somewhat confusing. Either way, if you go back to the US, your degree will be called "MD". If you stay in Australia, everybody will know that a Melbourne MD is not really an MD.

2. The Australian MD is not equivalent to the American MD/PhD. An American MD/PhD is like an Australian MBBS/PhD. The Australian MD (except Melbourne) is a degree that has no analog in America. It's conferred to a person who holds the MBBS degree for several years, has substantial research accomplishments in their career as a clinician, and puts together a dissertation. That's a slight distinction from a PhD, in which you pursue full-time research outside of your clinical career. The distinction is small and doesn't really matter for most people, but I just thought I'd clarify.

3. The Times Higher Education Supplement rankings are for biomedicine (i.e. undergrad/graduate life sciences), not for medical school. The THES rankings do give us a guide for how the Australian schools compare to other universities around the world, but they're not accurate enough to say that #17 is better than #22 or #23. That is compounded by the fact that Melbourne and Sydney have recently gone through a thorough improvement of their curriculum and that ANU's med school is brand new.

4. There's a difference between "international student" (foreigner trained in Australia) and IMG (foreigner trained outside of Australia).

What kind of chances to I have at matching to a residency program somewhere in Australia (preferably urban) being an IMG? Considering I graduate somewhere in the top half of my class.

This question has been beaten to death, brought back to life, beaten to death again, sent to Hell, and then tortured some more.

The fact of the matter is that nobody in Australia knows the answer. Nobody.

At the moment, they barely have enough internships (aka first-year residencies) for all of their students. In the next few years, class sizes are increasing every year and there's no immediate plan to increase the number of internships. Some people are optimistic, others aren't. The state governments say that they'll handle the problem when the time comes closer, but it's a stressful situation for students.

If they don't have enough internships, then international students will get the shaft, regardless of how good your grades are. They have made it clear that no international students will get first-year internships until all local students have placements. After the first year, you apply to specialty training programs, and then you'll be judged on merit - but for the first year, it's based entirely on your passport.

So - after you graduate, you might have to go back to the US. Personally, that doesn't bother me too much... I mean, I lived in the US for most of my life, and it's not that bad. It's a bigger issue for the students who come from places like Malaysia.

If you're hard-set on staying in Australia, there are a few ways to get yourself an internship... but they're all difficult and might require you to delay your training by a year.




Oh, and I know that I said that there's no "best" medical school in Australia, but Sydney is the best medical school in Australia. Woot!

One of these days, I'll start a thread where everybody pitches the best things about their own school. Jokes aside, I do think that the teaching at USyd is spectacular, to say the very least.

 

[Acheron]

Thanks for the advice everybody. I think I am going to pass on Medical Schools in Australia.

From the sound of things I'd be shelling out over $100,000 on tuition (not even including living and travel expenses) and then not be guaranteed to get into a residency program. And in the event I did not get into a residency program I would be SOL.

Furthermore, from what I have read it appears that Australian programs do not adequately prepare students for the USMLE 1. Not because the programs are awful but because they only feature one year of sciences and three years of clinical; whereas, in the United States they feature two years of sciences and two years of clinical. Therefore, it would require a lot of independent study on my part to prepare for the USMLE which is one of the biggest determining factors when it comes to residency selection.

 

[SFs Own Tone]

Thanks for the advice everybody. I think I am going to pass on Medical Schools in Australia.

From the sound of things I'd be shelling out over $100,000 on tuition (not even including living and travel expenses) and then not be guaranteed to get into a residency program. And in the event I did not get into a residency program I would be SOL.

Furthermore, from what I have read it appears that Australian programs do not adequately prepare students for the USMLE 1. Not because the programs are awful but because they only feature one year of sciences and three years of clinical; whereas, in the United States they feature two years of sciences and two years of clinical. Therefore, it would require a lot of independent study on my part to prepare for the USMLE which is one of the biggest determining factors when it comes to residency selection.

Tuition would definitely be over 100K, but for the schools I would consider in the US. The tuition would essentially be the same for me.

I don't know where you got the 1 year basic sciences, 3 year clinicals. But its 2 and 2. You would have to study more rigorously for the USMLE though.

I'm confused as what your goals are: stay in Australia or go back to the US. In either case, going to school in Australia as an international student puts you at a disadvantage in both cases behind the locals of either country. Don't misinterpret that as being a poor option for either case. You would just have to work harder to ensure you ended up where you wanted to be. The main reason most people consider studying in Australia, is because they couldn't get into the US school of their choice.

Do the option that best suits you.

 

[shan564]

Also, remember that nobody in the world will guarantee you an internship, not even the US. You always have the option to go back if you'd like.

We'll have some more information about internships in the next couple of days.

Regardless, most of us are in Aus because we couldn't get into med school in the US.

 

[freshclay]

As an American living in Melbourne for the past 4 years, here's some more fuel for the fire:

I won't go into details of the course at UniMelb as it's already been noted that it will be undergoing some changes. Two main points: pre-clinical training was somewhat weak, but clinical training at the hospitals more than made up for it. You will be a competent doctor if you show up and put in the work.

If you want to pass the USMLE you will need to work at it outside of school. A handful of classmates (both Aussie and international) have already taken and passed Step 1. They are also very bright and organized. But it can be done if you set aside the time.

I think rankings of med schools are somewhat off-putting. Like most things in life, you get out what you put in. Pick a school in a city you like and enjoy the ride. The cost of living in Melbourne is somewhat higher than where I grew up (in Arizona), but I found because things were more expensive I was more inclined to stay home, i.e. party less, shop less, study more. I still had a life, but it was much easier for my easily-distracted brain to focus. I think the overall stress level of an Aussie med student is a lot less than their US counterparts, but without sacrificing competency.

The cost of the program is about the same as an average US med school with the current exchange. As with most other international students I was sweating out the job situation. But if it's any encouragement, I just landed an internship at a solid hospital in Melbourne and I am definitely not the sharpest tool in the shed.

That's fine if you want to stay in the US, but you may want to at least consider Australia as a back-up plan. All the best.

 

[JanikeyDoc]

Hello all,

I'm an American I have recently begun researching the possibility of studying to acquire an M.D. in Australia.

I really don't have that many facts about AUS med school and I'm looking for help, google doesn't seem to be doing the trick.

In general what are the best of Australia's medical schools? (rankings would be greatly appreciated) and what is the average cost of attendance?

After I receive my degree I'd like to remain in Australia for at least another 5 years or so before returning to the United States... Will I have a lot of difficulty doing this?

Thanks for your input and feel free to add anything else you think that I should know.

They don't really rank things here but the biggest research medical schools in Australia are U of Queensland, U of Sydney, and Melbourne. UWa is also supposed to be good but does not take any international students.

Its a lot easier to get admission to these schools than a US medical school.

As far as staying, its getting hard to do that because they have increased the number of places in medical school to a point that by 2012 some students won't be able to get internships if things are not changed.

Also if you are planning to return to the US, doing postgraduate training in Australia is a waste of your time because it won't count in the US, you will have to repeat everything.

If you are an American citizen in an American medical school, the only way you will not get a residency is if you fail out of medical school. I have never heard of a US graduate not getting something.