Australian physician salary data

[shan564]

I finally found some real salary data for physicians in Australia. This website outlines the different salary grades at the public hospitals in Queensland (keep in mind that Brisbane has a lower cost of living than Sydney or Melbourne):

http://www.health.qld.gov.au/medical/md_rem_packages.asp

It seems like about what everybody's been saying here. Interns and residents (first 3 yrs after med school) average about $61k-$72k as a base salary (38 hrs/week), plus overtime pay and call pay. Fellows/registrars make about $100k-150k. Full GPs/internists make about $200k, and specialists make $250k-300k.

So basically, this settles the fact that Australian doctors make as much (if not more) money than US doctors... and the residency is much more livable.

I know that money isn't everything, and it's definitely not the reason why I want to go into medicine (I'm planning on going into academics). I just figured that this data is good to show my parents, just so that they know that Australia is a good option.

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[Ezekiel20]

I finally found some real salary data for physicians in Australia. This website outlines the different salary grades at the public hospitals in Queensland (keep in mind that Brisbane has a lower cost of living than Sydney or Melbourne):

http://www.health.qld.gov.au/medical/md_rem_packages.asp

It seems like about what everybody's been saying here. Interns and residents (first 3 yrs after med school) average about $61k-$72k as a base salary (38 hrs/week), plus overtime pay and call pay. Fellows/registrars make about $100k-150k. Full GPs/internists make about $200k, and specialists make $250k-300k.

So basically, this settles the fact that Australian doctors make as much (if not more) money than US doctors... and the residency is much more livable.

I know that money isn't everything, and it's definitely not the reason why I want to go into medicine (I'm planning on going into academics). I just figured that this data is good to show my parents, just so that they know that Australia is a good option.

A few comments:

Yes trainee docs in Aus earn much more than those in North America.

However, the pay for fully qualified GPs is immensely variable, due to the business aspect of the practice. It is said that an average GP makes ~ 100K. A GP earning 200K probably owns his/her own business and hires other GPs. GPs on salaries who work in medical centres may struggle to earn 100K.

Also, staff specialists (ie fully qualified doctors based in public hospitals) rarely earn more than 200K. Superannuation and professional development allowance are not payments you can take home, so your inclusion of these into the 'salary' is questionable.

Your final comment (convincing your folks that income as docs in Aus is good) suggests to me that you've already decided to stay and work in Australia after finishing med school.

You should keep in mind that by 2014, the number of medical graduates from Australian universities will be almost double that of now (eg ~650 in NSW in 2008, ~1100 in NSW in 2014) due to several medical new schools opening up. This means that there is a real possibility that you will not get an internship spot. So unless you also prepare to go back home (ie sit the USMLE etc), you may find yourself in a very difficult situation.

Just so you know..

 

[JoeNamaMD]

I think internship spots will get difficult to get after 2012. Most GPs who earn over 200k a year are in private practice, medical specialists who earn 300k a year work mostly in private hospitals.

Brisbane vs. Sydney?? I met a guy who moved from Sydney to Brisbane and thought it was the biggest mistake of his life. Sydney has a lot more to offer as a city than Brisbane.

 

[liquid_krystale]

You should keep in mind that by 2014, the number of medical graduates from Australian universities will be almost double that of now (eg ~650 in NSW in 2008, ~1100 in NSW in 2014) due to several medical new schools opening up. This means that there is a real possibility that you will not get an internship spot. So unless you also prepare to go back home (ie sit the USMLE etc), you may find yourself in a very difficult situation.

Just so you know..

Just wondering, but if there is such a forseen internship shortage, shouldn't the government take measures to create new spots, esp if doctors are in such high demand in underserviced areas?

Just seems to make sense to me...I mean, if the government does nothing to address these issues, even some of the domestic Aus students will be out of luck. Does anyone have figures on how many internship spots total per territory are available as of 2009?

Thank you!

 

[shan564]

A few comments:

Yes trainee docs in Aus earn much more than those in North America.

However, the pay for fully qualified GPs is immensely variable, due to the business aspect of the practice. It is said that an average GP makes ~ 100K. A GP earning 200K probably owns his/her own business and hires other GPs. GPs on salaries who work in medical centres may struggle to earn 100K.

Also, staff specialists (ie fully qualified doctors based in public hospitals) rarely earn more than 200K. Superannuation and professional development allowance are not payments you can take home, so your inclusion of these into the 'salary' is questionable.

But the report is about the standard pay rates for doctors in public hospitals in Queensland... why is it different from what you're saying?

 

[jaketheory]

hello! they have socialized medicine in Aus. the tax rate is in no way comparable to that in the US so it is completely inappropriate to compare salaries of Aus and US physicians without taking that into account. a US doctor may make a little less but their take home may be more.

 

[shan564]

As long as it's similar, that's all I care about. When you're making six figures, you can't really complain about little discrepancies here and there. Oz has a lower cost of living and, from everything I've read, a better quality of life... so I think I'd be willing to sacrifice a small part of my salary for that.

 

[Dr.Millisevert]

hello! they have socialized medicine in Aus. the tax rate is in no way comparable to that in the US so it is completely inappropriate to compare salaries of Aus and US physicians without taking that into account. a US doctor may make a little less but their take home may be more.

I'm no accountant.. but if you consider a doctor working in the highest tax bracket in both countries making the same income... lets see:

If an Australian doctor (Sydney) makes (350kUSD) and gets taxed at (47% on first 150k, 45% for every $1 after)

Annual net income = $189,500 USD

... and if a US doctor (California) makes 350kUSD and gets taxed 35% (+ 10% state income tax).

Annual net income = $192,500 USD

...I don't actually see much of a difference.


It comes down to a lifestyle decision too... many after considering what they get at the end of the day (not only what they net after taxes, but also what they get in services for their taxes)... Australia to many people seems like a better option these days.

Minimum wage in Australia is $13 USD/hr! (so as a student you can make more money working lunch shifts at that cafe or bar)

University education for your children is actually subsidised to a much greater extint (HECS and OzStudy living allowances, etc) which means you come out with much less debt if any after med school.

As a resident you can make a lot more money than in the US.

In Australia you won't have to pay as much in malpractice insurance (more savings in cash outflow.. esp if you are in obs/gyn or neuro (which can be up to 100k/yr in some states)

You won't have to pay as much per year in private health insurance (saving more money)

Also, (and this goes equally for both countries) if you have a good accountant and you are an employer, you can always write many many costs off anyhow.

Plus Australia has nicer beaches

 

[JoeNamaMD]

I'm no accountant.. but if you consider a doctor working in the highest tax bracket in both countries making the same income... lets see:

If an Australian doctor (Sydney) makes (350kUSD) and gets taxed at (47% on first 150k, 45% for every $1 after)

Annual net income = $189,500 USD

... and if a US doctor (California) makes 350kUSD and gets taxed 35% (+ 10% state income tax).

Annual net income = $192,500 USD

...I don't actually see much of a difference.


It comes down to a lifestyle decision too... many after considering what they get at the end of the day (not only what they net after taxes, but also what they get in services for their taxes)... Australia to many people seems like a better option these days.

Minimum wage in Australia is $13 USD/hr! (so as a student you can make more money working lunch shifts at that cafe or bar)

University education for your children is actually subsidised to a much greater extint (HECS and OzStudy living allowances, etc) which means you come out with much less debt if any after med school.

As a resident you can make a lot more money than in the US.

In Australia you won't have to pay as much in malpractice insurance (more savings in cash outflow.. esp if you are in obs/gyn or neuro (which can be up to 100k/yr in some states)

You won't have to pay as much per year in private health insurance (saving more money)

Also, (and this goes equally for both countries) if you have a good accountant and you are an employer, you can always write many many costs off anyhow.

Plus Australia has nicer beaches

Good point, many people do not understand basic finance. I lived in San Francisco, when you added city and state taxes to federal taxes, I used to lose half of my income to taxes. I will also lose nearly half of my income to taxes in Australia but in return, I get socialized health care, my children will get subsidized housing, fewer lawsuits in Oz vs. USA, less crime and more secure society than the US, oh better beaches and sunshine.

Another point is that you can expect the US Dollar to fall further against all major currencies, including the Australian Dollar over the next five years unless the US makes a dramatic foreign policy shift. Looking at the political situation in the US, McCain will be the next President, and that means a third term of George W Bush politics.

 

[redshifteffect]

I'm no accountant.. but if you consider a doctor working in the highest tax bracket in both countries making the same income... lets see:

If an Australian doctor (Sydney) makes (350kUSD) and gets taxed at (47% on first 150k, 45% for every $1 after)

Annual net income = $189,500 USD

... and if a US doctor (California) makes 350kUSD and gets taxed 35% (+ 10% state income tax).

Annual net income = $192,500 USD

...I don't actually see much of a difference.


It comes down to a lifestyle decision too... many after considering what they get at the end of the day (not only what they net after taxes, but also what they get in services for their taxes)... Australia to many people seems like a better option these days.

Minimum wage in Australia is $13 USD/hr! (so as a student you can make more money working lunch shifts at that cafe or bar)

University education for your children is actually subsidised to a much greater extint (HECS and OzStudy living allowances, etc) which means you come out with much less debt if any after med school.

As a resident you can make a lot more money than in the US.

In Australia you won't have to pay as much in malpractice insurance (more savings in cash outflow.. esp if you are in obs/gyn or neuro (which can be up to 100k/yr in some states)

You won't have to pay as much per year in private health insurance (saving more money)

Also, (and this goes equally for both countries) if you have a good accountant and you are an employer, you can always write many many costs off anyhow.

Plus Australia has nicer beaches

Another interesting point is that in the US you have to "chase" up a lot of the private health insurers because they simply don't pay you. Having some some electives in US gp practices (though this is the case for all doctors in the US from what I understand) a percentage of your salary gets lost because some insurances agencies simply refuse to pay you for your services, in the hope that you will find the process of getting your money too tedious to bother, saving them millions a year.

So a lot of GPs have hired a staff member specifically for this job, thus adding an extra expense you wouldn't have in Australia.

 

[shan564]

So a lot of GPs have hired a staff member specifically for this job, thus adding an extra expense you wouldn't have in Australia.

Not just GPs... I worked for a psychiatrist at a small practice who had to hire somebody solely for that purpose.

 

[acennace]

I've been lurking around this forum for a little while, but I can't help to say something about this.

As naive as it sounds, why does salary in medicine really matter? If a person wants to go to do medicine, money shouldn't be the main motivation. Where is the humanity in that? Otherwise, medicine would just be another heartless occupation that operates like soulless business. Salary should be part of the consideration, but doctors everywhere make a lot more than the rest of the population. There is more in life than just money.

Cheers,
nn

 

[shan564]

I've been lurking around this forum for a little while, but I can't help to say something about this.

As naive as it sounds, why does salary in medicine really matter? If a person wants to go to do medicine, money shouldn't be the main motivation. Where is the humanity in that? Otherwise, medicine would just be another heartless occupation that operates like soulless business. Salary should be part of the consideration, but doctors everywhere make a lot more than the rest of the population. There is more in life than just money.

Cheers,
nn

Nobody ever said it's the "main motivation". There are plenty of topics on these forums, and only a few of them involve money. As I said earlier, I plan on going into academics, which means that I'll be earning much less than the people going into the clinical side. The point is, I'd just like to know how much I'll be making so that I can plan accordingly.

Money was never my driving force. I actually almost decided to do a PhD in Medical Physics until I realized that my interests were more on the medical side than the physics side. Just because we'd like to know how much money we'll have doesn't mean that we're all heartless businessmen.

The main reason why I wanted to know about the salary data is so that I can convince my dad that being a doctor in Australia is just as good as being a doctor in the US.

 

[acennace]

I'm not necessarily replying to your comment, so don't feel like you are a heartless businessman. It's just a spur-of-the-moment comment about medicine in general and I felt like this thread was an appropriate place to say it since money has been discussed.

I just feel that the financial aspect seems to be the driving factor to do medicine (or so as it is often discussed) that I couldn't stop wondering if applicants are vying for positions in medical school for the right reason.

Pretty much my extended (typical Asian) family including cousins who I don't really know has told me to apply to schools in the US or Hong Kong because I would make more money. Personally, I don't care if they hate me for not doing what they want me to do, but I feel that ultimately my personal well being matters more than what they think. I can picture my aunt yelling at me for not actively pursuing Hong Kong as an option to do medicine. I don't think I'll be the happiest there.

 

[liquid_krystale]

As long as I have enough income to pay off my debts from student loans and be able to afford a reasonably comfortable lifestyle, I'm content. Alot of expenditures are luxury items, cars, clothing, trips, toys, and I tend to find myself a spartan person by nature who can amuse myself easily. As long as I work reasonable hours (read-not 80 hours a week) and feel I'm reasonably compensated for my labours, I'm quite low maintenance.

~200 K a year is alot of money, and not very many people have such a comfortable income. We should count ourselves lucky that physicians have the potential to make such a cush living, even though we spend alot of time, money, and effort to attain it.

 

[Dr.Millisevert]

I just feel that the financial aspect seems to be the driving factor to do medicine (or so as it is often discussed) that I couldn't stop wondering if applicants are vying for positions in medical school for the right reason.

....of course not.. But when you've been in school your entire life and finish your training in your mid 30s and have 200k+ in student debt, and a mortgage, and a family to feed. You need some sort of security that you will be able to pay off your debt and be able to afford to provide for your dependants. This is all anyone here is supporting.

 

[shan564]

I just feel that the financial aspect seems to be the driving factor to do medicine (or so as it is often discussed) that I couldn't stop wondering if applicants are vying for positions in medical school for the right reason.

There's no question about that. If it wasn't for the money, nobody would be motivated to spend 4 years of undergrad trying fervently to get into med school, just so that they can spend 4 years of med school trying to keep up with all of the information, just so that they can spend 3-5 years of residency working every waking hour. You can help people (or make a positive contribution to the world) doing a lot of different things, but it's the money/respect that drives a lot of people to pursue an MD.

I don't have a problem with people who care about the money. The thing that annoys me is the people who ONLY care about the money. I've met plenty of doctor's who don't give a crap about their patients, as long as they can bring home the paycheck. That's what really annoys me, and I wish we had a way of weeding those people out of med school.

 

[jaketheory]

I don't have a problem with people who care about the money. The thing that annoys me is the people who ONLY care about the money. I've met plenty of doctor's who don't give a crap about their patients, as long as they can bring home the paycheck. That's what really annoys me, and I wish we had a way of weeding those people out of med school.

i think that is one purpose of the interview. check out UQ these days. no more interview.

 

[JoeNamaMD]

If the interview is one way to weed out the physician capitalists, it is not working. Australia is becoming similar to the US in that many new graduates are entering higher paying specialty fields versus General Practice. In Australia GPs have the most variable incomes. While most self employed GPs earn 150 to 200k AUD, the numbers maybe different for those employed in clinics and hospitals.

The American equivalent of the GP, the Family Practioner earns between 125k to 150k USD self employed, with current exchange rates, a self employed Australian GP's income is favorable.

 

[shan564]

i think that is one purpose of the interview. check out UQ these days. no more interview.

I don't think that a 1-2 hour interview is enough to judge whether or not a person is in it for the money. Nobody ever says at their interview that they want to be a doctor because doctors are rich. I know plenty of people who are able to BS their way through a session like that... you don't really understand the person's background unless you know them personally.

This is the reason for rec letters, but unfortunately, those are way too easy to BS also. Nobody will ever write you a crappy rec letter, so now it's just become a contest to see who can get a letter from the most famous professors. I think it's about time that medical school admissions start to incorporate the kinds of psychoanalytical surveys that many major employers have been using recently in their hiring processes.

 

[jaketheory]

so not true. if you read personal statements for a living, you quickly gain a nose for BS. I'm sure the same is true for interviewers. you ask for motivations and follow up with questions that dig. observe their behavior as they think about their answers. with some experience you read the BS.

furthermore, lots of people will write crappy letters. many students dont ask if the faculty member will ask them for a strong letter. some faculty will say they are unwilling, while others will simply write something like (paraphrased): so and so was in my whatever class. he seemed to show up to class. i gave him a B. i did not really know that well so cannot comment otherwise.

many more letters get written like that than you would think. however, its all the requestors fault. simply asking someone for a letter does not imply it will support their application.

and certiainly getting a rec letter from a big whig won't help if it is obvious said big whig did not know the applicant very well. most admission committee members will not know of the letter writer, even if they are a big whig, if they arent so big that most people in medicine know of them. a strong letter which indicates the writer knows the applicant very well is worth much more than a weak letter from said big whig.

and many med schools employ several interviewers, not a single one.

 

[Doctor]

The American equivalent of the GP, the Family Practioner earns between 125k to 150k USD self employed, with current exchange rates, a self employed Australian GP's income is favorable.

That's the problem with this thread, it ignores the cyclical nature of currency exchange rates. If you instead based in on the average exchange rates of the past 10 years, 20 years, 50 years, or 100 years, US physicians make a whole lot more than Australian ones. It's a strange assumption to think that Bush or McCain will be President for the next 30-40 years you will be practicing (meaning the US dollar will be kept down perpetually).

 

[jaketheory]

oh my god, i hope pseudo-Bush McCain is not president!

 

[JoeNamaMD]

That's the problem with this thread, it ignores the cyclical nature of currency exchange rates. If you instead based in on the average exchange rates of the past 10 years, 20 years, 50 years, or 100 years, US physicians make a whole lot more than Australian ones. It's a strange assumption to think that Bush or McCain will be President for the next 30-40 years you will be practicing (meaning the US dollar will be kept down perpetually).

Like massive foreign debt and a new alternative currency(Euro) are not the causes of the dollar's slide??!! I am pretty sure McCain is going to win in November, especially after the way Jeremiah Wright opened his mouth, he pretty much torpedoed any chance of Obama winning the nomination, and a lot on conservatives will mobilize against Hilary.

 

[Doctor]

Like massive foreign debt and a new alternative currency(Euro) are not the causes of the dollar's slide??!! I am pretty sure McCain is going to win in November, especially after the way Jeremiah Wright opened his mouth, he pretty much torpedoed any chance of Obama winning the nomination, and a lot on conservatives will mobilize against Hilary.

The "alternative currency" alone doesn't have much to do with the dollar's slide. The budget deficit (which creates a "massive foreign debt") does, which means (as we both seem to be saying) Bush/McCain = sliding dollar.

Jeremiah Wright will be an afterthought in November... once Billary is out of the picture, you'll have an energetic 45 year old with "new ideas" and "change" against a tired old 80 year old with tired old policies.

 

[shan564]

That's the problem with this thread, it ignores the cyclical nature of currency exchange rates. If you instead based in on the average exchange rates of the past 10 years, 20 years, 50 years, or 100 years, US physicians make a whole lot more than Australian ones. It's a strange assumption to think that Bush or McCain will be President for the next 30-40 years you will be practicing (meaning the US dollar will be kept down perpetually).

Currencies are unstable, but definitely not cyclical. Once the value of a specific currency starts to drop, it stays down. Look at the Zimbabwe dollar (ZWD) as an extreme example: 30 years ago, $1 ZWD was equal to $1.50 USD, but now, it takes $30,000 ZWD to make $1 USD. There are plenty of similar examples (Turkey, Pakistan, India, Japan, etc.) and plenty of examples of the opposite case (most oil-rich Middle Eastern countries).

Economies are cyclical, but once a currency drops, it stays down.

 

[Doctor]

Currencies are unstable, but definitely not cyclical. Once the value of a specific currency starts to drop, it stays down. Look at the Zimbabwe dollar (ZWD) as an extreme example: 30 years ago, $1 ZWD was equal to $1.50 USD, but now, it takes $30,000 ZWD to make $1 USD. There are plenty of similar examples (Turkey, Pakistan, India, Japan, etc.) and plenty of examples of the opposite case (most oil-rich Middle Eastern countries).

Economies are cyclical, but once a currency drops, it stays down.

That's not true. Major currencies don't generally stay down. The dollar (and the British pound, etc.) has been weak many times before and always recovered.

Hell, the Canadian dollar has even been worth more than the American dollar before (in the 1970s). Then the dollar was worth like $1.60 CAD by the 1990s... it all goes in cycles, with the US dollar anyway. Also the Pound Sterling, Deutschemark, etc. Give it enough time, and the Euro will trade back and forth in a range too.

This isn't to say it isn't possible that it could stay down forever... but the US would have to make major missteps for that to happen. Like having a huge deficit for 30 years in a row.

 

[JoeNamaMD]

Blah, Blah. Honestly in my superficial opinion, Russia and Ukraine have the best "currency" in the world. If have you ever been to either you will know exactly what I am talking about.

The real issue is in this global world we live in, we can have a good life in many places, to a lot of people it seemed like the USA was the only place, I have been there and a lot other places, its not quite so.

I don't think the USA is going to fall like many pessimists say but it largely going to enter a phase like the UK in the middle of the last century where its influence waned, so instead of being the one, it will be one of many.

Vacation time is more generous in Oz, so that means I will have more time to go on my annual trips to different places around the world.

Anyway in the next couple of years we might see if the Regime Change theory regarding the dollar works out, if Hilary or Obama get elected though.

 

[able OBG]

Can somebody plz suggest

an medical post gradute from Asian country Obg Gyn

1) how much does one make while doing fellowship ( obg gyn ) in private hospital in sydney after 3-4 th year

2) and what are earning possibilities in australia $$ after completion of fellowship of 4 1/2 year in Obg gyn

3) does US recognise australian fellowship in Obg and Gyn for employment ...or how much time would it further take to get at par with US meds for empl0yment in US

please advice

 

[jaketheory]

3) does US recognise australian fellowship in Obg and Gyn for employment ...or how much time would it further take to get at par with US meds for empl0yment in US [/SIZE].

please advice

the US will not recognize any fellowship training in australia. the closest to it is reciprocity enabling fellows of the australian college of general practicioners to take the board exam for the american board of family medicine. but even then you still have to pass the exam. for most everything else you would have to repeat all or a large majority of your postgrad medical training to be considered board eligible. while you only need a license to practice medicine in the US, which can be obtained after passing USMLE step 3, your ability to be employed will remain low without board eligibility as you will not likely be able to attract any insurance reimbursements without it.

 

[shan564]

the US will not recognize any fellowship training in australia. the closest to it is reciprocity enabling fellows of the australian college of general practicioners to take the board exam for the american board of family medicine. but even then you still have to pass the exam. for most everything else you would have to repeat all or a large majority of your postgrad medical training to be considered board eligible. while you only need a license to practice medicine in the US, which can be obtained after passing USMLE step 3, your ability to be employed will remain low without board eligibility as you will not likely be able to attract any insurance reimbursements without it.

Do you know if US fellowship programs will accept people who did their residency in Oz? If I decide to do an internship or residency in Oz, is there any way to come back to the US without having to repeat my training?

 

[jaketheory]

i responded to your last question already. fellowship in aus will not be recognized in the US.

and shan, some fellowships in the US will accept oveseas trained docs, however, simply completing a fellowship will not make you board eligible. to become board eligible you would need to repeat most or all of your previous training. it is specific to the specialty however. a fellow in general practice (aus) is eligible to take exam for the american board of family physicians and does not need to be repeat training. board eligibility in internal medicine requires completing a minimum of 2 years in an AGME accredited internal med program, IM subspecialties will require completing the full subspecialty fellowship in an accredited program in addition to the the IM requirement.

and yes, you would have to repeat intern year.

 

[shan564]

This a$$hole is spamming all over the Australia forum. Can somebody please ban him? He's some random person who obviously wants to move to Australia just for the money (in medicine), and has no concern for the fact that spam is not only against the rules, but is also annoying. These are the exact values that are corrupting the medical field today.

 

[Winged Scapula]

Do you know if US fellowship programs will accept people who did their residency in Oz? If I decide to do an internship or residency in Oz, is there any way to come back to the US without having to repeat my training?

Shan,

there are several relevant issues here. It IS possible to do a fellowship in the US after having done your residency abroad; as a matter of fact, it is not unusual for Aussies to come to the US for specialty training they cannot get at home. However, they tend to return to Oz.

If your plan is to stay in the states, it becomes a more difficult problem. One, fellowship programs may be loathe to accept someone who is planning on staying in the states because they realize you cannot be BE if you have not done your residency in the US.

There may be some US boarded fellowships in which you can become BE in the fellowship specialty without being BE in the residency training. You would have to contact the relevant board for such info.

If you are planning on coming back to the US after doing residency in Oz, as jaketheory notes, this is difficult as most boards require you to do the vast majority, if not all of your training in the US. The American Board of Surgery, for example just last year said they would consider accepting some training (max of 2 years) done abroad, but the kicker is you have to be in a US residency program before they would consider giving you credit, so its not like you could start as a PGY-2 or beyond.

Secondly, we are entering a world where being BE/BC is going to be a requirement. EVERY hospital I applied to and EVERY insurance company wanted to know if I was BE/BC, when I took my exams, etc. While I've yet to hear of companies that refuse to contract with a non BC physician, there are practices which prefer BC physicians. You cannot be BC in *most* specialties without having done your residency in the US.

Obviously check the policies of the relevant board and keep checking them, as they do change, but expect that if you train abroad and want to work in the US, that you will have to repeat all if not the vast majority of your residency in the US.

 

[jaketheory]

dude, are you talking about me? i'm spamming? move to aus for the money? you cant be talking about me.

 

[Winged Scapula]

dude, are you talking about me? i'm spamming? move to aus for the money? you cant be talking about me.

He's talking about your Ob-Gyn friend that you responded to above.

 

[shan564]

Thanks for the advice... I guess I'll have to decide between Oz and US when I'm finishing med school. I was just hoping that I could switch back and forth between the two countries, but I guess not.

 

[Winged Scapula]

Thanks for the advice... I guess I'll have to decide between Oz and US when I'm finishing med school. I was just hoping that I could switch back and forth between the two countries, but I guess not.

I had thought about doing that too, but at the time I studied there, we were restricted from staying to do internship in Oz (although the rules changed and some were allowed to).

Check and see what you would need to do to work in Oz; it used to be that if you did your internship year there and got registered, but then returned to the US for a full residency, that it was possible to return to Australia to work. The reverse (doing residency in Oz to return to the states) was not possible.

And of course, it depends on your specialty. With some, you may get more or less credit for your training in Australia making it possible to do have to do a full residency in the US.

But currently it is not possible to do all of your training in one country and be able to work in both. At least not easily and without being considered an "international" expert or doing clinical work (ie, you can do research but not clinical medicine).

This is a pretty common question so I'm sure if you did a search you'd be able to find some other threads about it.

Finally, there are practical issues to consider. As an academic physician, it is easier to get sabbatical time every few years and move somewhere else as a "visiting professor". But this is not practical in a community or PP setting, where insurance companies will drop you if you don't see a certain number of their patients (ie, if you were gone for awhile), where licensing boards will require additional training if you are not actively practicing medicine in the US, and where you cannot possibly have the finances to run an office while you are out of the country and not seeing patients here. In other words, the concept of Visiting Professor is probably the most feasible but its not like you can take off every 6 months and do that. Even academic hospitals require you to bill a certain amount of $$ to earn your keep.

 

[jaketheory]

i have looked into this and from what i have found, it seems doing an internship in aus and then residency in the US seems the best way to keep options open (at least for the specialty i looked into, medicine). while the max advanced standing one can recieve in the US for overseas training is 1 year (again, for medicine), the handbook for the royal australasian college of physicians suggests you COULD get credit for all of basic physician training and much of advanced. i believe it states at least 12 months of advanced training must be completed in aus.

so if you do an internship in aus, return to the US for residency and fellowship, and then return to aus and do an extra year of training to meet advanced physician training requirements, you might be able to swing both countries. this would require a total of 8 years training vs. 6 just to practice in the US, which doesnt seem too bad. of course there is the question kimberly introduced above about insurance and board complications if you do not keep up with continued US practice (or possibly aus practice as well).

but what do i know? apparently i am just a spamming a-hole.

forgive me for trying to provide accurate and usefull advice (which, i thought was the purpose of these forums) and correct the misinformation given by others. I always suggest not relying on the information people provide here, as many people are religious about their views on attending an aus school (whether negative or positive) and thus will not be swayed even when confronted with factual info that contradicts their own statements. always, always check info you find here for yourself with reputable sources (outside the forum).

 

[shan564]

I wasn't talking about you (spamming a-hole); I was talking about the other guy who posted the exact same message 10 times. You can't see his message anymore because the admins deleted it. Sorry if you thought I was referring to you; I guess I should have been more specific.

Anyway, thanks for the suggestion. Does anybody know if this sort of thing has been done before?

 

[Marsupilami]

Interesting topic...here is a link that I bookmarked a while ago: http://www.imrmedical.com/australiasalaries.htm

I think with regard to income, the US is certainly the place to be on this planet ( and perhaps Canada, if you can get in)...but the salary in Australia is certainly not bad either and the life style in Oz is simply so much more agreeable than in the US, where you basically live to work.

The only thing I have a big problem with is the fact that the Australian path to becoming a specialist is extremely long...I have spoken to people who told me it has taken them 10, 11 years after graduation to finally become a consultant in their field of choice. The system is very similar to the British system which has equally long training periods. Those thinking about moving to Down Under have to keep this in mind.

 

[DrJT]

We posted an item not long ago about Australian doctors' earnings on our website. Not easy to come by reliable data - it's certainly not widely available as in the USA.

 

[shan564]

The only thing I have a big problem with is the fact that the Australian path to becoming a specialist is extremely long...I have spoken to people who told me it has taken them 10, 11 years after graduation to finally become a consultant in their field of choice. The system is very similar to the British system which has equally long training periods. Those thinking about moving to Down Under have to keep this in mind.

The training is longer, but it's also much less unpleasant. In the US, trainees work ~80 hrs/week for $40k/year... Australian trainees work ~50 hrs/week for ~$70-130k/year (depending on what stage of training you're at).

 

[Marsupilami]

The training is longer, but it's also much less unpleasant. In the US, trainees work ~80 hrs/week for $40k/year... Australian trainees work ~50 hrs/week for ~$70-130k/year (depending on what stage of training you're at).

Shan,

that is an important point, of course. Lifestyles of US and Oz based trainees differ greatly !

 

[JoeNamaMD]

The information on that article could be a bit off, although its good to hear GPs earn more than other GPs in other countries, most US GPs earn around 150k a year, the article mentions US GPs making 250k a year, that is way off as an average, the top 10 percent of most US PCPs earn 200k a year after expenses. Realistically, its best to possibly ask a doctor you know what earnings are like. Dermatologists in Oz can earn a lot of money. Regardless they make enough to live very comfortably. I think most people in Australia could live well on 70k a year, even in Sydney.

Honestly after seeing doctors working in Australia, compared to the US the environment is much more humane, many go home in the evening while their American counterparts sleep in the janitors closet. A few Australians who saw Greys Anatomy thought that scene where one of residents goes to be in a hospital closet was a joke.

 

[pitman]

Another calculator, for Australian GP salaries:

http://www.generalpracticeaustralia.org.au/gpearnings/

I tested it out and it appears accurate for a couple scenarios I know about. With ridiculously conservative values of 3 patients per hour, eight 1/2 days a week, bulk billing, 55% of billings earned, and just 4 hours of overtime, salary range it gives is $150k (urban) to $275k (rural proceduralist). A little more realistic 4 patients per hours => up to $360k for the rural proceduralist.

Locums pay a bit better, where a procedural GP can make $1600-$1800 a day (10hr days + on-calls). If you like the rural life and moving around, that's gross 47weeks x 5d/week x $1700/d = ~$400k plus free accommodation and typically a car, but without superannuation (retirement) contributions.

 

[jaketheory]

Another calculator, for Australian GP salaries:

http://www.generalpracticeaustralia.org.au/gpearnings/

I tested it out and it appears accurate for a couple scenarios I know about. With ridiculously conservative values of 3 patients per hour, eight 1/2 days a week, bulk billing, 55% of billings earned, and just 4 hours of overtime, salary range it gives is $150k (urban) to $275k (rural proceduralist). A little more realistic 4 patients per hours => up to $360k for the rural proceduralist.

Locums pay a bit better, where a procedural GP can make $1600-$1800 a day (10hr days + on-calls). If you like the rural life and moving around, that's gross 47weeks x 5d/week x $1700/d = ~$400k plus free accommodation and typically a car, but without superannuation (retirement) contributions.

eight 1/2 days a week is conservative? if that's the case there's no ****ing way i will be a GP!

 

[pitman]

eight 1/2 days a week is conservative? if that's the case there's no ****ing way i will be a GP!

Hmm. Not 8-1/2 days, but eight half-days, i.e. 4 days (the system bases its calculations on half days).

 

[Raigon]

Hmm. Not 8-1/2 days, but eight half-days, i.e. 4 days (the system bases its calculations on half days).

I think he understood what you meant. We're smart enough to know that there's only 7 days in a week. =)

 

[shan564]

eight 1/2 days a week is conservative? if that's the case there's no ****ing way i will be a GP!

Dude, 4 days a week is pretty conservative for any sort of doctor.