Australian vs. US Med Schools

[pitman]

...Ah, I had forgotten that bit of forums history.

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[BambinoMD]

Its unfortunate that some Australian schools have failed to live up to their promises to you north american international students. It's my opinion that the current trend toward PBL is erroding the teaching of basic science in many aussie schools, and that this will run it's course like all other educational fads.

I wonder which programs you are/were enrolled in, are they the graduate entry 4 year programs ? I am an australian doing one of the 6 year programs at a school with a heavy basic science program - I guess my point is that not all aussie schools have the same curriculum. I chose my school because of it's basic science program. If you are considering an aussie school - check out all of them !

I agree with you. I am an international Flinders graduate currently doing residency in the U.S., and while I'm extremely grateful for the opportunity to have studied and lived in Australia, and to have received a BMBS there, the PBL program often seemed to be more of a cost cutting measure than it did about didactic innovation. The basic medical sciences were weakly represented in PBL, the opposite of systematic and complete, with somewhat random forays into tedium and hyper-detail of otherwise fairly esoteric topics. Australian students that were exposed to traditional didactic programs on the other hand, that I’ve met anyway, seemed to be very well prepared and made subject to very solid medical educations. I also found Mish’s descriptions about PBL, and comments in general, to ring with great honesty and very reminiscent of my experience in PBL.

Having said this, North American students wanting to go back to the US can certainly prepare themselves properly for a career in the US whilst studying in Australia. You will have a lot of time on your hands that US and Canadian students don’t usually have, especially in year 1 and 2. Do yourselves a favor and use most of that free time to study for Step 1. By studying the A rated books in the back of First Aid for Step 1, and by just about memorizing First Aid itself, you should be on par with what is expected of you to know in US when it comes to basic medical science (knowledge that you will practically need let me assure you). Tolerate PBL, especially if you have a to suffer through a bad group, and then go home and put in a good 4-5 hours a day studying the Step 1 books. This way you will cover all the basics that you really do need to know. After studying the books, do practice questions (NMS and Q bank seem to be the gold standards). Organizing your learning this way should do well to cover the gaps in the PBL courses. During your clinical years you should utilize Step 2 material to keep your learning on track and prepare you for the Step 2 exam. I didn’t do this personally, but a more extreme idea that I’ve heard is to get the learning syllabus of a respectable US or Canadian school and utilizing that as a learning roadmap in order not to miss anything (again I'm not sure that's needed, but I thought I'd at least expose you to the idea). And speaking of Canadians, their prep book for their exams, the MCCQE, is also excellent.

Anyway, that’s my advice, for what its worth. And by the way if you do some digging in old posts you will see that USMEDGRAD has a major axe to grind, and is probably not representing himself accurately, so if I'm feeling generous, I would believe exactly 2% of what he says. And again, in spite of what he says, the USMLE passing rate at Flinders was up in the 90% range somewhere.

One last word of, perhaps controversial, advice to you North Americans is this. At least in the US, we are used to being actively taught and tutored, and I suspect it is the same in Canada. In Australia, at least according to my PBL experience at Flinders, you, the student, are not taught, but instead are simply given an opportunity to learn. How you learn, and what you learn, is up to you; you will receive scant support most of the time. Again, you are given access to the opportunity and the facilities to learn but true teaching and true pedagogues are very rare, so don’t expect to be taught much. You are given the access to what you need to get a medical degree, nothing more, nothing less, what you do with this is up to you. I hope this helps, and good luck to you all.

 

[Winged Scapula]

In regards to basic science preparation before embarking on a GEMP course of medical studies...

IMHO, at least during my tenure at Flinders, there was a great disservice done to students without either a science undergrad degree or at at least what we would consider in the US, the minimum medical prerequisite courses. All of the students in the year prior to mine and in my year who were asked to repeat the year had not the science background. I recall one of them waiting until the 9th week of the first year to admit that she didn't know what we meant when using terms like "synthesis". Apparently, at least at that time, a high score in the non-science portion of the GAMSAT could shore up a mediocre showing on the science portion.

Obviously as DrIng points out, it is possible to do well without the basics of physics, organic chem and the like and most general medicine does not rely on a detailed knowledge of such. However, as I have seen, many students without such a background struggle and find themselves having to study these basics in addition to the coursework.

 

[DrL]

In regards to basic science preparation before embarking on a GEMP course of medical studies...

IMHO, at least during my tenure at Flinders, there was a great disservice done to students without either a science undergrad degree or at at least what we would consider in the US, the minimum medical prerequisite courses. All of the students in the year prior to mine and in my year who were asked to repeat the year had not the science background. I recall one of them waiting until the 9th week of the first year to admit that she didn't know what we meant when using terms like "synthesis". Apparently, at least at that time, a high score in the non-science portion of the GAMSAT could shore up a mediocre showing on the science portion.

Obviously as DrIng points out, it is possible to do well without the basics of physics, organic chem and the like and most general medicine does not rely on a detailed knowledge of such. However, as I have seen, many students without such a background struggle and find themselves having to study these basics in addition to the coursework.

Kimberli, you seem to be pretty knwledgable about ths whole process. I've got two basic questions for you - I've got good grades, and i'm a bio/chem double major at a US uni. (I've had undergrad anat +physio 1 and 2, orgo 1 and 2, biochem, histology, etc, etc). Considering this backgorund, if I was to return home for a GEMP,

(1) Do you think I could be a competent physician in any specialty if I was to stay in Australia for my residency? (i.e were the doctors you worked with there as competent as they are here -be honest)

(2) If I was to decide to return to the US, would it be hard for me to catch up with other residents in terms of knowledge and competency?

Thaks a lot

 

[banana k]

sorry to hijack things a little bit from the debate angle, but i have a US vs Oz question that hopefully will not make everyone go off their nuts at each other...

i'm thinking about doing medical research. i'm wrapping up a science honours (doing tox stuff) and in the meantime usyd's holding me a place till i finish, so i have both of those in the bag. the plan was to finish the research and then jet off and wind up in practice. trouble is, i fell in love with discovery and my supervisor's already making phd noises that i'm finding REALLY tempting. anyway, my question is this: in the US, it seems like medical schools are scientifically intense enough (and have rigorous enough undergrad requirements) for a graduating MD to function to a significant degree in a research setting if they want to. is this true of Oz GEMPs? my experience in both oz and us undergrad science courses tells me no, that ALL oz courses are kind of trade-oriented and kind of isolated from one another. (i.e. even though biomedical science, genetic engineering, zoology, and botany are ALL biology and life sciences, they don't even fall under the same school and have no overlapping courses and graduates can't cross over to anything else, so to speak.) is there any way to do both medicine and research from a GEMP, or would i have to go the whole hog and get a PhD as well? cos that would take bloody *forever*. and cost me an arm and a leg. input, anyone? can med graduates with science backgrounds go off and do science? are there people that do this? and why don't phd's and mbbs's actually listen to one another and interact? (at least it seems like they don't in queensland, but that could be my supervisor's bias again.) and are there tox-based mbbs/phd niches, or does everyone expect you to be a bloody molecular biologist for that title like they do in the us?

cheers

 

[Winged Scapula]

Kimberli, you seem to be pretty knwledgable about ths whole process. I've got two basic questions for you - I've got good grades, and i'm a bio/chem double major at a US uni. (I've had undergrad anat +physio 1 and 2, orgo 1 and 2, biochem, histology, etc, etc). Considering this backgorund, if I was to return home for a GEMP,

(1) Do you think I could be a competent physician in any specialty if I was to stay in Australia for my residency? (i.e were the doctors you worked with there as competent as they are here -be honest)

(2) If I was to decide to return to the US, would it be hard for me to catch up with other residents in terms of knowledge and competency?

Thaks a lot

Glad to assist in any way I can.

1) I honestly believe that the Oz physicians and surgeons I worked with were not only competent, but in many ways superior to their US counterparts. I attributed this to the fact that the traditional Oz education was longer (6 years), with more clinical experience AND perhaps most importantly, the house officer/RMO years done before training. I believe these to make for a very well rounded physician-surgeon in a manner that is superior to the US physician who enters training much earlier. The caveat is of course that these consultants are all graduates of earlier 6 year programs with more emphasis on basic sciences. Since I have not had an opportunity to work with current GEMP grads in training I cannot compare them to US grads.

2) I believe you can catch by focusing more on the basic sciences ( and not things like pathways but things like the differential diagnoses and treatments for electrolyte imbalances, etc.) and getting as much practical experience as possible (ie, make sure you can insert urinary catheters, do a good physical exam [which you should be able to do from any Oz school any way], draw blood, ABGs, suture, perhaps even insert a central line or chest tube [useful skills even outside of surgery residency]. With the current work hour restrictions there are more hours to study outside of residency, not that you want to, but there is time to do at least a little review each week, if not each night.

Best of luck...

 

[watermen]

Glad to assist in any way I can.

1) I honestly believe that the Oz physicians and surgeons I worked with were not only competent, but in many ways superior to their US counterparts. I attributed this to the fact that the traditional Oz education was longer (6 years), with more clinical experience AND perhaps most importantly, the house officer/RMO years done before training. I believe these to make for a very well rounded physician-surgeon in a manner that is superior to the US physician who enters training much earlier. The caveat is of course that these consultants are all graduates of earlier 6 year programs with more emphasis on basic sciences. Since I have not had an opportunity to work with current GEMP grads in training I cannot compare them to US grads.

2) I believe you can catch by focusing more on the basic sciences ( and not things like pathways but things like the differential diagnoses and treatments for electrolyte imbalances, etc.) and getting as much practical experience as possible (ie, make sure you can insert urinary catheters, do a good physical exam [which you should be able to do from any Oz school any way], draw blood, ABGs, suture, perhaps even insert a central line or chest tube [useful skills even outside of surgery residency]. With the current work hour restrictions there are more hours to study outside of residency, not that you want to, but there is time to do at least a little review each week, if not each night.

Best of luck...

May I ask you few questions?

I want to study medicine. Should I study in US or go to Australia? I don't mind working anywhere? Which one is better?

How are those Australian medical schools being viewed when it comes to residency? I mean universities such as Sydney, Melbourne, Adeleide, Western Australia and Queenlands. US middle ranking medical schools and these Australian top schools which one is better?

 

[banana k]

hah... well, i wouldn't say my supervisor is particularly unbiased, but i wouldn't say he was trying to get me to stay either. when i first got in he was adamantly against my finishing honours--his attitude was FOR GOD'S SAKE JUST GO OR YOU'LL DRIVE YOURSELF CRAZY. he was right, too.

good to hear that the science basis is not all that different. i was starting to beat myself up over that. and thanks for the clarification... you're right, it does seem like md's are more statistically/public health oriented in their research, which is cool, but... well, it could be cooler.

however, next question. the real beeotch of it is that i'd be SO thrilled to do both degrees. trouble is, being a US national means i'll be out a quarter million bucks by the end of the four years. (which is, astoundingly, still less than it would cost me to go to med school in the states. pathetic, isn't it?) if i had a blank checkbook from a fantastically rich benefactor i'd go do my four years med, then launch straight into phd and use the med stuff IN the phd projects. unfortunately i don't, meaning i'll have to start working like hell on a doctor's salary to pay off that debt as soon as i graduate med. so if i'm to do both degrees it seems more likely that i'll do phd on scholarship first--which limits the scope of the projects cos i have a zoology and not biomed sci degree.

nuts! anyone have sage advice?

 

[deleted59964]

1) I honestly believe that the Oz physicians and surgeons I worked with were not only competent, but in many ways superior to their US counterparts. I attributed this to the fact that the traditional Oz education was longer (6 years), with more clinical experience AND perhaps most importantly, the house officer/RMO years done before training. I believe these to make for a very well rounded physician-surgeon in a manner that is superior to the US physician who enters training much earlier. The caveat is of course that these consultants are all graduates of earlier 6 year programs with more emphasis on basic sciences. Since I have not had an opportunity to work with current GEMP grads in training I cannot compare them to US grads.
...

I just want to point out that these 6 year programs still exist, and that there are international students enrolled in them.

They are of course less attractive to many because it takes longer - but my science background wasnt strong so I chose one despite having a previous undergrad and masters degree.

Peace.

 

[banana k]

flindophile, you rock. i was aware of those programs in the US but i'm totally ignorant of them in oz. any sites or administrations i should be checking out and shmoozing?

cheers

 

[banana k]

what, why is that? i've done my honours in australia and been impressed with it... i felt like the research was on par and i was happy with its egalitarianism and minimized hen-pecking compared to the US. also, the topic i want to do is pretty strongly australian (venoms). any particular reason you don't advise phd in oz?

 

[Winged Scapula]

I just want to point out that these 6 year programs still exist, and that there are international students enrolled in them.

They are of course less attractive to many because it takes longer - but my science background wasnt strong so I chose one despite having a previous undergrad and masters degree.

Peace.

NO need to point it out, at least for me. I'm well aware that there are still 6 year programs, several with international students in them.

My point was that the Consultants I worked with were grads of the 6 year programs and that the students I worked with would be grads of the 4 year programs so it would be difficult to compare them (since the question was whether I thought current grads of the GEMP would be as competent).

 

[Winged Scapula]

May I ask you few questions?

I want to study medicine. Should I study in US or go to Australia? I don't mind working anywhere? Which one is better?

How are those Australian medical schools being viewed when it comes to residency? I mean universities such as Sydney, Melbourne, Adeleide, Western Australia and Queenlands. US middle ranking medical schools and these Australian top schools which one is better?

Tough question to answer without knowing where you want to practice medicine. If you wish to practice and/or do residency in the US, go to medical school there. If the answer is Oz, then study there. Neither one is better than the other, they are just geared for a different type of training (ie, in the US you are expected to have learned a fair bit before starting internship while in Oz many of that which would be expected up north is taught during that first internship year).

The Aussie schools are generally well regarded in the US but there is no ranking. As noted before (much to my amusement), if you were to ask an Aussie which school was the best, the reply would be, "there all good, I reckon). So you can't really compare them or even label them as the "top schools" since no such ranking exists currently for the Aussie medical schools.

Final answer: if you wish to work in the US, choose a US school, if you want to work in Oz, study there.

 

[DrIng]

In regards to research...
n Australia if you're doing a PhD you can apply for an Australian Postgraduate Award which covers the cost of the PhD equivalent of HECS and gives you a stipend which for non-medical background people is taxfree $18,400 pa. (I think this amount if higher for people with medical degrees). Anyway these are available for Australian residents at just about every Australian university. Plus there are then the industry sponsored positions... Hope this helps.

 

[banana k]

dr ing you're totally right and as it stands i think i may just steam for an APA, but unfortunately i have to get PR first... which is monumentally easier (read: not impossible like it is now) to get if i ALREADY have an mbbs or phd. oh, the fun of being a foreign national. my supervisor's reactions included "just get married" and "let this be a lesson to you next time you're getting born in the wrong country". wonderful.

 

[USMedStudent]

Final answer: if you wish to work in the US, choose a US school, if you want to work in Oz, study there.

If only Oz schools were as honest as to say the above, there wouldn't be so many American/Canadian grown men/women crying out of Oz "med schools." Several years after having their useless meaningless BMBS that's worth less than the paper it's printed on, the vast majority of them are still on the bench studying for the USMLEs that even they know they'll never ever pass. For the few that did pass after multiple multiple attempts, most of them don't get a residency anyway. At least they haven't. I personally know quite a few of them. Some asked me to help them to get into my Program. I had to diplomatically (this I learn from DC politicians) decline by saying neither yeah of nah, but just "I'll look into it."

The last thing I want to have in the world is to have an underclassman that knows zip about basic sciences, and very pitifully little about MODERN medicine. Worse if it's me that brought that person into our 5-star competitive Program.

It's a shameful lie that "Flinders graduates score high on USMLEs." What happens is out of 100+ American/Canadian graduates since year 2000, as far as I know, less than 10 of them passed Step 1 on first attempt, among them less than 5 scored higher than 230. I know of only 3 such people. Many of those fortunate folks did so during the paper-computer transition when the NBME was still testing its software, so it let more people pass than usual to calm down critics. It was like a promotion for a new product.

Now that the product has been well accepted, NBME has accordingly toughened up its stance, and its exams. This has worked against Oz schools, and favored Indian schools that stress very strongly on basic sciences. Overall, I agree with the above, if someone wants to practice in Oz, fine, go to any schools there. But if someone wants to practice in the US, one MUST NOT GO TO AUSTRALIA FOR MEDICAL SCHOOL, or he/she will leave it with a degree that's worth less than the paper it's printed on.

 

[deleted59964]

If only Oz schools were as honest as to say the above, there wouldn't be so many American/Canadian grown men/women crying out of Oz "med schools." Several years after having their useless meaningless BMBS that's worth less than the paper it's printed on, the vast majority of them are still on the bench studying for the USMLEs that even they know they'll never ever pass. For the few that did pass after multiple multiple attempts, most of them don't get a residency anyway. At least they haven't. I personally know quite a few of them. Some asked me to help them to get into my Program. I had to diplomatically (this I learn from DC politicians) decline by saying neither yeah of nah, but just "I'll look into it."

The last thing I want to have in the world is to have an underclassman that knows zip about basic sciences, and very pitifully little about MODERN medicine. Worse if it's me that brought that person into our 5-star competitive Program.

It's a shameful lie that "Flinders graduates score high on USMLEs." What happens is out of 100+ American/Canadian graduates since year 2000, as far as I know, less than 10 of them passed Step 1 on first attempt, among them less than 5 scored higher than 230. I know of only 3 such people. Many of those fortunate folks did so during the paper-computer transition when the NBME was still testing its software, so it let more people pass than usual to calm down critics. It was like a promotion for a new product.

Now that the product has been well accepted, NBME has accordingly toughened up its stance, and its exams. This has worked against Oz schools, and favored Indian schools that stress very strongly on basic sciences. Overall, I agree with the above, if someone wants to practice in Oz, fine, go to any schools there. But if someone wants to practice in the US, one MUST NOT GO TO AUSTRALIA FOR MEDICAL SCHOOL, or he/she will leave it with a degree that's worth less than the paper it's printed on.

please tell me you won't be practicing in australia then either.

 

[USMedStudent]

please tell me you won't be practicing in australia then either.

I am comfortably practicing in the North East US. And I am not in surgery which is the easiest thing to get into. Yesterday I was told there were at least 60 surgery residency positions still unfilled, the highest number among all specialties. It seems like anyone that wants a surgery residency, gets 2.

But this is not due to my Oz school at all. I had 4.5 years of graduate work in biomed before I couldn't get enough grant money to continue my Ph.D. so I decided to take a long vacation in Oz for med school. Upon coming back I finished my Ph.D. and automatically was offered this residency as a matter of course. Coming this July I will be the Chief Resident in my program at one of the finest medical institutions in the US, if not the world. And under my wings, there shall be absolutely no kids coming out of Oz schools, ever. Even their Oz consultants are not qualified.

The Chancellor of Melbourne University once honestly said, "As the best school in Australia, Melbourne University is not among the top 100 universities in the world." I hope all Chancellors of all Oz med schools would be as honest as to say similarly: "We are not qualified to train doctors for the US." That would be non-maleficient.

 

[Winged Scapula]

I am comfortably practicing in the North East US. And I am not in surgery which is the easiest thing to get into. Yesterday I was told there were at least 60 surgery residency positions still unfilled, the highest number among all specialties. It seems like anyone that wants a surgery residency, gets 2.

What you weren't told is that these are Prelim positions. Only 6 Categorical positions were left unfilled after the match; only bested by Derm and Plastic Surgery.

Every year there are tons of Prelim non-designated surgery positions available because few people want them. If you have the choice (ie, Anesthesia, EM, etc.), most will choose Prelim Medicine. If you want a Categorical spot, most are loathe to take a Prelim position which will likely not translate into a Categorical spot as a PGY2 and face repeating their intern year. Surgery is not considered an easy match these days.

 

[pitman]

But this is not due to my Oz school at all. I had 4.5 years of graduate work in biomed before I couldn't get enough grant money to continue my Ph.D. so I decided to take a long vacation in Oz for med school. Upon coming back I finished my Ph.D. and automatically was offered this residency as a matter of course. Coming this July I will be the Chief Resident in my program at one of the finest medical institutions in the US, if not the world. And under my wings, there shall be absolutely no kids coming out of Oz schools, ever.

Congrats on your fine accomplishments.

Given that PhDs are granted for studying a very narrow topic in depth, I think it's fair to say that your Oz training has a heck of a lot to do with your current position that requires a broad medical understanding. Sure, you sound like you were self-motivated in Oz, as others who have trained there and have similarly "succeeded", but you are still your own counter-example to your argument, IN DIRECT PROPORTION to your degree of success.

It's hypocritical, indeed logically incoherent, to say you'd never allow *others* (like you) under your wings...what, you'd reject yourself if you had the chance? You are not worthy of yourself?

-pitman


-pitman

 

[UsydGrad]

Big Deal, you studied and passed USLME 1. There is a bit more to it than that. Like USMLE 2 (both sections) and USMLE 3. Many who pass all sections (particularly non-US citizens who graduated from Australian schools) are not getting residencies in the US.

North Americans who came to Australia to avoid some perceived Carribean "stigma" are finding out that the "Ozzie stigma" is far worse. Carribean grads have proved themselves by making it through a strenuous program. Everybody everywhere knows that Ozzie med school is a total blow off and that international students are their ATM machine. Very rarely do international students (or any students) fail -- just keep them around another year -- credit $30,000.

I would bet most of these graduates are still in Austalia dawdling around as interns and RMOs with no true prospect of specialty training. Lately, you have been able to do this for a couple of years ,then you are out in the cold, at which point you can take your stigmatized degree elsewhere and hope for the best. Don't worry. Life goes on. There are interesting careers outside medicine.

I scored a 249 (first attempt) and a classmate outscored me. While there are some students in my cohort who have not taken the exam, I am unaware of anyone who has failed. Perhaps it was different in your day.

 

[UsydGrad]

If only Oz schools were as honest as to say the above, there wouldn't be so many American/Canadian grown men/women crying out of Oz "med schools." Several years after having their useless meaningless BMBS that's worth less than the paper it's printed on, the vast majority of them are still on the bench studying for the USMLEs that even they know they'll never ever pass. For the few that did pass after multiple multiple attempts, most of them don't get a residency anyway. At least they haven't. I personally know quite a few of them. Some asked me to help them to get into my Program. I had to diplomatically (this I learn from DC politicians) decline by saying neither yeah of nah, but just "I'll look into it."

The last thing I want to have in the world is to have an underclassman that knows zip about basic sciences, and very pitifully little about MODERN medicine. Worse if it's me that brought that person into our 5-star competitive Program.

It's a shameful lie that "Flinders graduates score high on USMLEs." What happens is out of 100+ American/Canadian graduates since year 2000, as far as I know, less than 10 of them passed Step 1 on first attempt, among them less than 5 scored higher than 230. I know of only 3 such people. Many of those fortunate folks did so during the paper-computer transition when the NBME was still testing its software, so it let more people pass than usual to calm down critics. It was like a promotion for a new product.

Now that the product has been well accepted, NBME has accordingly toughened up its stance, and its exams. This has worked against Oz schools, and favored Indian schools that stress very strongly on basic sciences. Overall, I agree with the above, if someone wants to practice in Oz, fine, go to any schools there. But if someone wants to practice in the US, one MUST NOT GO TO AUSTRALIA FOR MEDICAL SCHOOL, or he/she will leave it with a degree that's worth less than the paper it's printed on.

Spot on. This is a call for these schools to behave ethically and first, do no harm. For starters, they need to publicize clearly all data pertaining to placement of international students. If a school refuses to release detailed verifiable data as to the success of their international students, DO NOT ACCEPT ANY OFFER OF ADMISSION.

[Also note, your access to specialty training in Australia (when Ozzies presumably start to teach medicine), despite successful immigration (in no way guarenteed), is virtually nil.]

So often, it has turned out to be a long road to NOWHERE.

 

[UsydGrad]

Congrats on your fine accomplishments.

Given that PhDs are granted for studying a very narrow topic in depth, I think it's fair to say that your Oz training has a heck of a lot to do with your current position that requires a broad medical understanding. Sure, you sound like you were self-motivated in Oz, as others who have trained there and have similarly "succeeded", but you are still your own counter-example to your argument, IN DIRECT PROPORTION to your degree of success.

It's hypocritical, indeed logically incoherent, to say you'd never allow *others* (like you) under your wings...what, you'd reject yourself if you had the chance? You are not worthy of yourself?

-pitman


-pitman

Based on my Australian medical school education, I would indeed REJECT myself (regardless of having crammed and passed the boards) and other Australian graduates attempting admission to US residency programs. I do not see anything illogical in such a notion. I respect USMedStudent for his honesty and forthrightness, qualities still important in medicine! Did it ever occur to you, that his attitude and his ability to critically appraise situations may have contributed to his (unlikely) success?

 

[aisling]

hi...well, i've never posted in one of these forums before but i read this one often (mostly because i really want to attend med school in australia) but lately...i've been pretty confused...i mean, who are these people who hate australia so much? you have a right to your opinion, but seriously, it would be nice to know what motivates you to "warn" everyone of the evils of australians who just want to take our money, etc. (by the way, i am an american too) why do you so readily identify yourself as United States medical student, as though America is SO far superior to any other country, as though anyone else pursuing a medical career in another country is an idiot compared to you and WHY are you posting here? i guess i shouldn't question as a newbie or something, but what are you trying to do? are you trying to give honest facts to the rest of us so we won't make mistakes about where we choose to attend medical school? okay, okay, i got it! australia is evil and bad and getting a medical degree there means nothing! got your point...so what else do you got? i value differing opinions, but your bitter responses to curious pre-meds are not at all constructive! where are all your statistics coming from anyway? quoting numbers from friends of friends or whomever you choose to isolate as a good statistic for your australia-bashing is not good hard evidence to prove to me that australia is a bad place to study medicine...

anyway, to the rest of you guys who seem to really be trying to give good advice to us curious pre-meds, hello!

 

[UsydGrad]

hi...well, i've never posted in one of these forums before but i read this one often (mostly because i really want to attend med school in australia) but lately...i've been pretty confused...i mean, who are these people who hate australia so much? you have a right to your opinion, but seriously, it would be nice to know what motivates you to "warn" everyone of the evils of australians who just want to take our money, etc. (by the way, i am an american too) why do you so readily identify yourself as United States medical student, as though America is SO far superior to any other country, as though anyone else pursuing a medical career in another country is an idiot compared to you and WHY are you posting here? i guess i shouldn't question as a newbie or something, but what are you trying to do? are you trying to give honest facts to the rest of us so we won't make mistakes about where we choose to attend medical school? okay, okay, i got it! australia is evil and bad and getting a medical degree there means nothing! got your point...so what else do you got? i value differing opinions, but your bitter responses to curious pre-meds are not at all constructive! where are all your statistics coming from anyway? quoting numbers from friends of friends or whomever you choose to isolate as a good statistic for your australia-bashing is not good hard evidence to prove to me that australia is a bad place to study medicine...

anyway, to the rest of you guys who seem to really be trying to give good advice to us curious pre-meds, hello!

That's the point! Demand the "statistics" from the schools themselves. Don't rely on all the anecdotes. If the schools do not provide SPECIFIC, VERIFIABLE evidence regarding placement of international students (numerical data, percentages, specific residency programs, etc.), DO NOT ACCEPT ANY OFFER. I don't think any of us hate Ozzies. We do hate being misled though!

The international student market is big business down under and there has been a lot of deception in the competition for the international student dollar. Remember, if it sounds too good to be true, it probably is. (Until PROVEN otherwise.)

 

[UsydGrad]

I am a big puzzled by your reasoning. On the one hand you argue that Australian schools are so inferior that it would be impossible for any Australian student to perform well on the USMLE. Then, when given evidence to the contrary, you dismiss it. Somehow, I get the impression that you have a vested interest in believing that Australian schools are a disaster and that you WANT Australian students to do poorly.

I am not sure what poster you are referring to in your statement above. I can tell you that I do NOT have any "vested interest" in the matter.

[That did give me an idea -- there is a huge market out there for remedial courses for Aussie grads wanting to go to America! This has long been a tradition in Britain for students graduating from medical schools in the colonies and wanting to practice in England. In the past, Hammersmith Hospital had been a leader in these courses which had both didactic and clinical components. Perhaps, it is an area that Kaplan could enter.]

 

[pitman]

Based on my Australian medical school education, I would indeed REJECT myself (regardless of having crammed and passed the boards) and other Australian graduates attempting admission to US residency programs. I do not see anything illogical in such a notion. I respect USMedStudent for his honesty and forthrightness, qualities still important in medicine! Did it ever occur to you, that his attitude and his ability to critically appraise situations may have contributed to his (unlikely) success?

You sound an awful lot like USMedStudent, maybe you should read all his prior posts in his similarly limited forum history.

Of course it's illogical, and pretentious -- saying one would reject all such candidates says that one would reject oneself, thus one is not worthy of the position to reject others...and further, says that there are no (cannot be) others who could have a similar attitude or "ability to appraise"/excel (i.e., "I am uniquely righteous/worthy")!

Silly reasoning. And yet, a peculiar, shared trait.

-pitman

 

[pitman]

hi...well, i've never posted in one of these forums before but i read this one often (mostly because i really want to attend med school in australia) but lately...i've been pretty confused...i mean, who are these people who hate australia so much? you have a right to your opinion, but seriously, it would be nice to know what motivates you to "warn" everyone of the evils of australians who just want to take our money, etc.

I find a good rule of thumb, until individual post histories help guide, is to dismiss posters who use absolutes (particularly where behavior is concerned) or who don't bother carefully qualifying their characterizations, e.g., "...all Aussie grads/doctors...", "...no res placements...", "anyone can get in", "only money matters", "the only reason for going Oz/Carib/Ireland/Israel is...", etc.

Such people tend to 1) be ridiculously myopic and egotistical, 2) have a hidden agenda, 3) lack reasoning skills, and/or 4) be very, very bitter and emotionally wrapped up in their proclamations.

-pitman

 

[UsydGrad]

Thank goodness, I do not associate a medical career with righteousness and self-worth.

I think that attitude makes some people especially gullible to these scams. They think that becoming a doctor will increase their righteousness and self-worth and they are willing to do just about anything to get a medical degree -- even one that may turn out to be worthless to them.

Afterwards, when things don't work out (for example, they can't get back to Canada or can not get a residency in America despite having passed all sections of the USMLE), they suffer significant psychological defeat.

Also, don't tell ME what I should or shouldn't do. I don't care how many posts someone has made. As for any criticism of posters' "limited post history", some people have "lives" off the internet!

You sound an awful lot like USMedStudent, maybe you should read all his prior posts.

Of course it's illogical, and pretentious -- saying one would reject all such candidates says that one would reject oneself, thus one is not worthy of the position to reject others...and further, says that there are no (cannot be) others who could have a similar attitude or "ability to appraise" (i.e., "I am uniquely righteous/worthy")

Silly reasoning. And yet a peculiar, shared trait.

-pitman

 

[UsydGrad]

I find a good rule of thumb, until individual post histories help guide, is to dismiss posters who use absolutes (particularly where behavior is concerned) or who don't bother carefully qualifying their characterizations, e.g., "...all Aussie grads/doctors...", "...no res placements...", "anyone can get in", "only money matters", "the only reason for going Oz/Carib/Ireland/Israel is...", etc.

Such people tend to 1) be ridiculously myopic and egotistical, 2) have a hidden agenda, 3) lack reasoning skills, and/or 4) be very, very bitter and emotionally wrapped up in their proclamations.

-pitman

Please note! All of the above would seem to apply to the author of the above quote. [Does posting 500+ posts give someone some sort of "authority"? I would suggest a very different interpretation of this level of involvement! Furthermore, could it reflect on medical education in Australia?]

 

[pitman]

Also, don't tell ME what I should or shouldn't do. I don't care how many posts someone has made. As for any criticism of posters' "limited post history", some people have "lives" off the internet!

Um, my comment had nothing to do with counting posts. Point is, you're aligning yourself with (or you are) a poster who has a pattern of making (refutable) claims that multiple, reputable ppl here have outright refuted over and over again, makes claims of racist school policies, makes quasi-racist remarks, etc. And the reasoning behind some of these diatribes seems awefully similar to yours. No, the numbers themselves aren't the sign of trustworthiness -- they only give an assessable history.

If you truly want to help visitors w/ your views and opinions, you should consider sticking around for a while.

-pitman

 

[pitman]

Please note! All of the above would seem to apply to the author of the above quote. [Does posting 500+ posts give someone some sort of "authority"? I would suggest a very different interpretation of this level of involvement! Furthermore, could it reflect on medical education in Australia?]

No, 500 posts don't give authority. Those who read can assess one's credibility all by themselves, once there's some history to actually look up. In the meantime, there's always internal consistency and logic to assess.

Your allusion about my involvement is sad, though humorous -- you've just implied that there's something nefarious about any member who's much more involved (has many more posts) than you. Way to go.

And yes, my above rule of thumb as stated would necessarily apply to me also. Hmmm...something to ponder.

-pitman

 

[deleted59964]

this thread has degenerated beyond salvage. it no longer offers any good info to any prospective applicants and is merely a bitch session.


can we close it now?

 

[leorl]

this thread has degenerated beyond salvage. it no longer offers any good info to any prospective applicants and is merely a bitch session.
can we close it now?

This thread is being watched. It started out with promise and has a lot of useful information. Please keep in mind that threads are meant to be started for discussion of potentially useful topics that will either help current students or prospective students, or others who are just interested in the workings of other universities. Please keep threads on topic and refrain from lashing out - if you have something constructive to add, please do so. otherwise I will close this thread.

 

[avinash]

Hey....


I lived in Australia for 11 years and now im in the USA, would you guys say its harder to get into medical school in AUS beacause of the HSC and really high marks you need? Beacause here there you are prety much screwed if you dont go to a selective school or a private school becase generally speaking those students generally get the highest grades on the HSC beacause those schools have the best teachers and facilities. While here (USA) you can screw around in HS and go to a comm college and then go to a 4 year uni and then take mcats and then go to med school ofcourse with all the EC'S and volunteering, you have so many chances, while in aus its just the HSC and the UAI. Is this right? i was just wondering thats all. also do aus universities admit american students? Do they accpet mcat scores?

Thanks!

 

[pitman]

For the graduate programmes, your uni gpa, exam results, and interview are what matter. You can study anything you want as an undergrad, and in this sense, Australian grad schools are less restrictive than their US counterparts. GPA requirements are also not terribly high at most the grad schools (Melbourne is a notable exception).

If you are an int'l applicant, you can take the MCAT or the aussie GAMSAT (which is more of an aptitude test). Similar to an average US school, schools like to see a 30 on the MCAT (e.g., this year's first year int'l student ave mcat at UQ was 32...i've finally seen the data ), but the range is quite likely bigger for Australian schools in general (e.g., same class has some in the low 20's, up to the high 30's), so in this regard it may be a tad bit easier than a US school assuming you do well on the very different-styled interview here. but for same school, GAMSAT ave for domestic students was 67 (one of the highest for Aus schools), somewhere in the mid-90%iles (e.g., in 1998 it was 96%ile).

Interview at most the schools is extremely structured, with preformed questions, hypotheticals, role plays, etc., scoring in a more systematic way than your typical US school.

Each school weighs the gpa, exam and interview differently. Sydney places more weight on exam than gpa, then decides based on interview; UQ effectively weighs exam score above all else (gpa only a cutoff, and interview is used to filter out 1/3 or so of those remaining after cutoffs); Flinders weighs all three factors equally.

grad schools that take int'ls: uq, usyd, flinders, anu, melbourne, griffith; not sure if UWA (grad only this past year) will be taking int'ls this coming year.

For more info on particular school requirements (last year), see:
http://www.acer.edu.au/tests/university/gamsat/intro_gmac.html

-pitman

 

[UsydGrad]

Look, people can post whatever the heck they want on this board. There is no way to judge the "credibility" of anonymous posters on a bulletin board. And as anyone (who is not all tied up in this board stuff) can see, there is little "logic" or "consistency" going on here. Simply delusional. Anyway, I doubt anyone is going to bother to look up someone's post "history". Totally irrelevant waste of time that proves nothing.

I was not thinking this number of posts to be "nefarious". More like part of a "syndrome" or "disorder". Perhaps it is possible for a person to get so wrapped up in their poster identity that internet "communities" become their real world. Could it be that such a person doesn't like the reality they are facing? That's what seems so sad.

No, 500 posts don't give authority. Those who read can assess one's credibility all by themselves, once there's some history to actually look up. In the meantime, there's always internal consistency and logic to assess.

Your allusion about my involvement is sad, though humorous -- you've just implied that there's something nefarious about any member who's much more involved (has many more posts) than you. Way to go.
-pitman

 

[pitman]

Anyway, I doubt anyone is going to bother to look up someone's post "history". Totally irrelevant waste of time that proves nothing.

Tell that to those seriously interested in Oz med who frequently PM for honest info.

 

[pitman]

Correction: gamsat 67 is ~90%ile (see graph at: http://ausmedstudent.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=1287)

At any rate, point is that some schools like UQ expect high gamsat, others expect high gpa, some (like Melbourne) expect high both.

-pitman

 

[UsydGrad]

For Australians, the school leaving programs (for lack of a better description) are much more competitive than the so called "graduate entry programs". A large number of the local students in these graduate entry programs come out of a "medical science" degree which is generally 3 years (4 if you do honors). The cream of the crop go right in after high school -- 6 years (in some cases 5 years) to the MBBS. Those that don't get into med school out of high school and instead do medical science degrees and then enter graduate medical programs are looking at 7-8 years of education to the MBBS.

However, it's a very different game for international students who are basically buying degrees. It's a very easy application process. Many of those accepted have no intention of coming (applied just in case they did not get in somewhere else -- ie. top 3 Carribean). So don't be put off by reports of high numbers of applicants or high scores of those accepted. Also international students tend to play the schools off against each other a bit (when possible). Just apply, just in case.

The educations being offered do NOT parallel American medical schools. It is an easy way to a medical degree and it is currently WHO recognized. In addition to the often mentioned discrepency when it comes to knowledge and skills, students don't get the sort of "indoctrination" into the profession that one gets in the United States. No matter how self directed and determined you are, it is not something you can do on your own! This ferocity and intensity has to be required of and imposed on you!

If you are applying as an international student (if you are Australian with a second citizenship, I suppose you don't have to disclose that you are also an Australian citizen -- and after the first semester, go ahead and disclose your citizenship and pay local fees as internationals who have received PR during med school have), most "graduate entry" schools accept MCAT scores in place of GAMSAT scores. These tests are quite different though and you may want to take the GAMSAT (which in past years has been offered in the US).

While we are talking scores. Make sure to score the schools. What kind of product are they putting out when it comes to international students. How many are getting residencies in the US (how soon after graduation?), what type of residencies and where? (That is, if this is important to you.)

If you can't get a straightforward independently verifiable answer, don't write the check! Remember, what is considered "good business practice" in one country, may be a "scam" in another country. I got the impression that foreigners don't deserve the same standard of honesty and transparency as Australians. [Off the subject, one might want to take note of Australia's immigration policies and treatment of foreigners in general!]

Could it be that the easy money of gullible bratty international students has ruined Australian medical education? Many profs think so. From the standpoint of Australian medicine, many think it wasn't worth selling out. And many of these "internationals" are finding their degrees very limiting. Looking more and more like no one is really benefitting in the long run. Of course, there's been a bit of quick cash for the medical schools at the expense of much personal carnage for students involved. The trend is currently toward fee-paying local students (those that couldn't get in initially but are willing to pay much higher fees). There will be less need to depend on the international student dollar and thus less demand for international students. And Australian medicine will be much better off.

Hey....


I lived in Australia for 11 years and now im in the USA, would you guys say its harder to get into medical school in AUS beacause of the HSC and really high marks you need? Beacause here there you are prety much screwed if you dont go to a selective school or a private school becase generally speaking those students generally get the highest grades on the HSC beacause those schools have the best teachers and facilities. While here (USA) you can screw around in HS and go to a comm college and then go to a 4 year uni and then take mcats and then go to med school ofcourse with all the EC'S and volunteering, you have so many chances, while in aus its just the HSC and the UAI. Is this right? i was just wondering thats all. also do aus universities admit american students? Do they accpet mcat scores?

Thanks!

 

[DrIng]

This post certainly has got people hot under the collar. I'll try to keep my points brief...
1) If you are worried that you wont get a good education in a foreign medical school and that the Australians/Irish/Israelis are just out to rip you off you probably wont be open to the experience, wont get on well with local students and will in general have a lousy time. I suggest you try and get into a med school in the US.
2) if you are interested in seeing some of the world and how another culture practices medicine but are prepared that it might be a bit harder for you going back to the US, look at going to a foreign school.
3) Whether or not standards are up to the US standards, is hard for me to comment on but I've been practicing for a year and a half now and haven't killed anyone, had any cmplaints from patients etc...
4) I think the fundantmental summary is that if you're a nice, open, easy going person we welcome you with open arms if you're going to be combatitive and a pain in the bum please go elsewhere, foreign students may or may not be 'big money' but who needs that hassle.
5) Oh, I've had job offers from all over the world (US, Canada, Ireland, new Zealand) including several interviews in the US so obviously most of the world is happy with the Austrlian stanards.
6) We're really a very nice people, we have nice weather and we'd love to see you. Please don't be put off by some of the vitriol in this string...

 

[driedcaribou]

I was not thinking this number of posts to be "nefarious". More like part of a "syndrome" or "disorder". Perhaps it is possible for a person to get so wrapped up in their poster identity that internet "communities" become their real world. Could it be that such a person doesn't like the reality they are facing? That's what seems so sad.

Your constant personal attacks toward other users have tainted any sort of advice you give.
It's hypocritical to accuse someone of being so concerned over Internet community when you obviously have made the effort to continually come back and write large posts that are not constructive.

To dismiss an Internet community as one less than any other community out there is to remove oneself from the reality that there are real people who post here that are genuinely concerned about the welfare of others.


Now Australian medical schools and American medical schools are different. But so is their health care system, their government, their quality of life, their attitudes toward life, etc.

To not take all of these factors into account and simply dismiss any education outside the US as inadequate is an oversimplification of things.

Ultimately, it is the individual that makes a good doctor. If you expect someone to spoonfeed you with information all the time, then expect to be hungry when you graduate.

I don't care where anyone graduates. If you know you have a deficiency in your training, you make up for it. It is the responsible thing to do. To blame a system for your incompetence is just a lack of professionalism.

 

[pitman]

I'll respond to just some of the comments not addressed elsewhere.

Many of those accepted have no intention of coming (applied just in case they did not get in somewhere else -- ie. top 3 Carribean).

As an int'l student involved in int'l student affairs, I personally know virtually every int'l student in the first two years at UQ. I know of ZERO who applied to, or even considered, Carib schools. I also know of zero students who have transferred out to a Carib school, while I do know of at least one student who's transferred out of a "top 3" Carib school to go to an Aussie school (and, not to pass judgment on the quality of Carib schools, he is happy that he did).

A different sort of student chooses to come here. Please stop trying to speak for the continent. If you think this is true of your school (Usyd), please state this, so your statement can at least be fairly assessed by others who chose to go there.

The educations being offered do NOT parallel American medical schools. It is an easy way to a medical degree and it is currently WHO recognized.

There is the allusion here that WHO recognition of the Aussie grad schools could cease. This is nonsense. Why might this happen? because the Aussie schools don't explicitly prepare students for the USMLE? or because they're grad programmes that take students with a huge variety of backgrounds, experiences and expertise, rather than the more-easily-indoctrinated undergrads?

In addition to the often mentioned discrepency when it comes to knowledge and skills, students don't get the sort of "indoctrination" into the profession that one gets in the United States. No matter how self directed and determined you are, it is not something you can do on your own! This ferocity and intensity has to be required of and imposed on you!

I think you mean to say "discrepancy when it comes to teaching of the basic sciences" which requires students to learn some of them on their own (or in groups, if they have friends).

Fortunately, students who are glad of their choice of coming here do not share this claim of dependency, indeed would find it anathema to their values, and I'd think would be quite puzzled that one would actually advocate indoctrination of any sort in medicine.

-pitman

 

[pitman]

Here are the stats reported a few comments ago:

Similar to an average US school, schools like to see a 30 on the MCAT (e.g., this year's first year int'l student ave mcat at UQ was 32...i've finally seen the data ), but the range is quite likely bigger for Australian schools in general (e.g., same class has some in the low 20's, up to the high 30's), so in this regard it may be a tad bit easier than a US school assuming you do well on the very different-styled interview here. but for same school, GAMSAT ave for domestic students was 67...

Here's the response to undermine reported stats:

However, it's a very different game for international students who are basically buying degrees. It's a very easy application process. Many of those accepted have no intention of coming (applied just in case they did not get in somewhere else -- ie. top 3 Carribean). So don't be put off by reports of high numbers of applicants or high scores of those accepted...

I'm curious as to why anyone might think that reported stats of those attending a school are at all addressed by comments about [unstated] stats of those accepted (who may or may not choose to attend). If you think the stats are wrong, that's a different matter, but what's reported (indeed, stats that I'm pretty sure are better than the top Carib schools) belies your above reasoning.

-pitman

 

[UsydGrad]

Enough pitbully attacks for me! This is the end of my existence here. No way I'm getting sucked into this crap. "10+ posts" is already too many! I suspect many others have been driven away for the same reason.

Parting words are don't go to an Ozzie school without examining its international student track record. [What type of jobs? How soon after graduation? What countries?] If you can't get detailed info [meaningful and independently verifiable data], don't go.

And watch out for internet addicts who claim they know everything and everyone [like "Jesus Christs" on the street corner]; posters who constantly attack, abuse and make demands of other posters. They are not worth your time. [Ask, why are they here making hundreds of posts and not studying or seeing patients? Medical school must be a real bore. Is this the type you want to go to med school with? Is this the type of med school you want to go to? Maybe this is what they mean by self-directed learning.]

There are many articles in the Australian general press and in general medical and specialty journals about the current "crisis" in Australian medical education. You can find stimulating debate on medical education elsewhere -- for example, the Lancet boards. Real debate, not just the endless monotonous refrain [interspersed with random illegible or meaningless material] of a single poster.

 

[pitman]

ok, UsydGrad, er USMedStudent (at Usyd), er doctor_with_no_country from USyd (e.g., http://www.valuemd.com/medicine-165203.html&highlight=#165203), see you next time!

Maybe then you'll actually respond to at least one of the many specific counter-arguments presented by five or six posters rather than reverting to generalizations and innuendo...

 

[UsydGrad]

ok, UsydGrad, er USMedStudent (at Usyd), er doctor_with_no_country from USyd (e.g., http://www.valuemd.com/medicine-165203.html&highlight=#165203), see you next time!

Maybe then you'll actually respond to at least one of the many specific counter-arguments presented by five or six posters rather than reverting to generalizations and innuendo...

Since I'm still here. Assuming this gobbly gook was directed at me, since it follows my post -- I have NO idea what it's all about and I am not interested in any such boards (certainly not with the same posters). Perhaps, the above is directed at someone else? I'm officially done. Believe me, I have better things to do! A can do, real world existence. Obviously it did not sink in first time around so here it is again.

Enough pitbully attacks for me! This is the end of my existence here. No way I'm getting sucked into this crap. "10+ posts" is already too many! I suspect many others have been driven away for the same reason.

Parting words are don't go to an Ozzie school without examining its international student track record. [What type of jobs? How soon after graduation? What countries?] If you can't get detailed info [meaningful and independently verifiable data], don't go.

And watch out for internet addicts who claim they know everything and everyone [like "Jesus Christs" on the street corner]; posters who constantly attack, abuse and make demands of other posters. They are not worth your time. [Ask, why are they here making hundreds of posts and not studying or seeing patients? Medical school must be a real bore. Is this the type you want to go to med school with? Is this the type of med school you want to go to? Maybe this is what they mean by self-directed learning.]

There are many articles in the Australian general press and in general medical and specialty journals about the current "crisis" in Australian medical education. You can find stimulating debate on medical education elsewhere -- for example, the Lancet boards. Real debate, not just the endless monotonous refrain [interspersed with random illegible or meaningless material] of a single poster.

 

[driedcaribou]

I have know idea what it's all about and I am not interested in any such boards

You certainly do 'know' about it.

It's horrible how you have completely ruined a helpful thread.

Using different colours, formatting in bold, writing in capital letters, posting again after saying you won't post anymore, filling your posts with adjectives and subjective one-sided views and many other things, doesn't exactly help your argument.

I don't know how you have evaded a ban because you have pretty much insulted all the moderators here. Their post count is definitely much higher and their time involvement here is much greater than ours.

If I didn't enjoy feeding a troll so much I suppose I wouldn't dignify your posts with any replies. But seeing as you're so just spilling over with love, I figure you could use some more of it.

I'm not saying that all your points are invalid though. But your views are definitely tainted with a negative slant which seems to be due to some personal misfortune. Whatever it is or was, I hope you work it out.

---

Medical education around the world is changing. Australia isn't the only place in the world that is modifying the medical educational system. There will always be a resistance toward change and the 'old-schoolers' definitely see flaws.

It seems as if there is a movement toward making a national exam similar to the USMLE in Australia. But with all big organizations, change comes slowly and I doubt this will be implemented in the next 5 years.
The University of Sydney is moving back towards graded assessments as well... this won't happen until 2008.


Most Australian medical schools will be unable to give you data re: it's International Graduates. I could be wrong but it seems as if there is no system in place to keep tract of this information. I think Flinders might though....

I hope this thread stays because it is good for those thinking of investing their time and money to come here to get a good idea of what to expect.

 

[watermen]

Most important thing: How are Oz grads being viewed upon by US program directors? Do Oz grads get looked down by peers? Do the general populace think that Oz grads are qualified? All in all, how is australian medical education being viewed around the world, do people arould the globe look up to australian medical schools?

 

[leorl]

Right. I'm closing this thread, as the original purpose has been detracted from. For those seriously interested in pursuing this topic, please start another thread. There have been remarks made by certain poster(s) that border on slanderous not only against Australian medical schools, but against all those choosing the IMG route. While this is not a TOS-able offense, it certainly isn't our interest to propagate misinformation. The Australian schools are reputable around the world, and US graduates (and other internationals) from the medical schools land good residencies, provided they score well/do US electives - they don't seem to have too much trouble on this front. It could be particularly helpful if upper-class representatives from each university would post match placements or residency placements from time to time. I really don't understand why one person(s) would choose to ruin positive discussion unless terribly embittered, in which case, choosing the IMG route was completely the wrong personal decision. I've said it in other threads. Don't damage the experience of others because you ate sour grapes. I hope to see this thread restarted, as the information would be invaluable to those seriously considering attending the Aussie universities.