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Is it just me, or do the average earnings for solo practicioners (as well as specialties) posted by the ADA seem rather inflated?
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average earnings
- Thread starter ejoseph
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These numbers are reached by survey only. They only have numbers of people who respond. This means that there is some inherent bias to the figures as the people who respond are likely going to be the dentists who are most involved in their practices and organized dentistry - people who are passsionate about their profession. The guys barely making it probably a) don't really care that much about dentistry - it's just a job and so wouldn't be members of the ADA anyway b) are too busy trying to keep afloat to worry about sending in some survey.
Also, the average practitioner they are talking about has owned his own practice for a little over 10 yrs. That's a long time.
Another thing to remember is that these are just averages. Dental markets are not homogenous. Certain areas of the country simply earn more and this drives up averages. It's important to keep in mind that 50% of people are going to fall below the average. Half of us will never see that $160,000 the ADA reports - ever. We just had a guy from the ADA come talk to our class the other day and he said there are plenty of dentists out there working full time and earning $50-60,000. Dentistry is not a slam-dunk.
But if you're doing it because you love it, your patients are going to know it and your practice will grow. One thing I am considering that the ADA guy mentioned is doing an MBA at the local university if you are ahead on requirements and have the time during senior year. Don't know how feasible it is, but apparently other people have done it at my school and made it out O.K.
Also, the average practitioner they are talking about has owned his own practice for a little over 10 yrs. That's a long time.
Another thing to remember is that these are just averages. Dental markets are not homogenous. Certain areas of the country simply earn more and this drives up averages. It's important to keep in mind that 50% of people are going to fall below the average. Half of us will never see that $160,000 the ADA reports - ever. We just had a guy from the ADA come talk to our class the other day and he said there are plenty of dentists out there working full time and earning $50-60,000. Dentistry is not a slam-dunk.
But if you're doing it because you love it, your patients are going to know it and your practice will grow. One thing I am considering that the ADA guy mentioned is doing an MBA at the local university if you are ahead on requirements and have the time during senior year. Don't know how feasible it is, but apparently other people have done it at my school and made it out O.K.
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Although, personally, I think it would be nice to fall in the 50% who earning more than the average. 😉
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Not at all, it must just be you 🙂
I think they are pretty much right on the money (pardon the pun).
But you can't just go around quoting this.
They are earning so little because they refuse to relocate to a better market!
They could move two states away, work half the hours and easily make twice as much.
You ALWAYS have to keep that in mind.
Stupid dentists shouldn't be part of the statistics.
This is an interesting thread. I work for a great Dentist who employs staff of 9 additional workers: 2 full time Hygenists, 1 part time, the rest assistants/billing +handyman. Now the practice is set up in a very busy neighborhood , he is an incredible General Dentist that doesn't charge too much (Average I'd say) and works a lot, I mean a lot. The gross income for the practice is well over 600K/year. I don't know exactly how much of that is his, of course not even close to 600 but well over 150K. SO I think it very largely depends on location and the Dentist. I believe specialists earn even more than that. But then again, I certainly heard of many dentists who can hardly meet the ends.
I'm willing to bet that 95% of those in this catergory are in it because they are having business problems, NOT because their skills aren't in demand.
My point is that if they knew how to market themselves and run the business they wouldn't have ANY trouble making ends meet.
You might be right, I know for sure that business skills are incredibly important in Dentistry. However, the doctor I am working with suggested an alternative. He said many of these dentists "who can hardly meet the ends" lack confidence in what they do. I am not sure to what extend this is true but I can imagine that anything one does without enough confidence will inevitably fail. Many of you are already practicing Dentistry and would know much better than me. Does the "Doctor Confidence" in patient Doctor interaction play an important role?
Thanks
2
2pac
does anybody know if there are good opportunities for new dentists in Phoenix/Mesa, Arizona in establishing a new practice or a partnership? also, are dentists in demand in that area, or is there an excess of dentists there? thanks.
According to research conducted by Oral Health America in 2002, Arizona ranked low at 44th out of 50 states for the ratio of dental providers to people. Arizona has one dentist for every 2,520 residents, while the group reported a sufficient ratio is one dentist to 2,000 people. In addition, there also is an uneven distribution of providers in urban areas compared with a less than sufficient number of oral health care providers in rural areas of the state.
According to the Arizona Department of Health Services, Arizonans have a higher rate of oral disease than the national average. Both Arizona children and seniors are part of the growing underserved indicated by alarming statistics including:
31% of Arizona children have never had a dental check-up.
43% of Arizona children ages 6 to 8 have untreated tooth decay, compared to the 31% national average.
65% of Arizona children between ages of 11 to 13 have had tooth decay.
42% of Arizona seniors have bleeding gums and/or calculus present requiring professional care.
MUCH need for dentists in AZ, and in the Phoneix area!
Associates start at ~$110,000/yr.
According to the Arizona Department of Health Services, Arizonans have a higher rate of oral disease than the national average. Both Arizona children and seniors are part of the growing underserved indicated by alarming statistics including:
31% of Arizona children have never had a dental check-up.
43% of Arizona children ages 6 to 8 have untreated tooth decay, compared to the 31% national average.
65% of Arizona children between ages of 11 to 13 have had tooth decay.
42% of Arizona seniors have bleeding gums and/or calculus present requiring professional care.
MUCH need for dentists in AZ, and in the Phoneix area!
Associates start at ~$110,000/yr.
2
2pac
thanks for the info Gavin.
-i visited arizona last year and it left a positive impression on me. i like the 300+ days of sunshine, and especially the Sonoran desert! in cali where i live there's also 300+ days of sunshine, but there seems to be so many urban dentists in my city, so many, it seems, that they end up opening up their practice when there are already a sufficient amount of clinics in the immediate area- my dentists' office is adjacent to two other dental offices (the three dental offices are RIGHT next to each other, and they get on each others nerves when patients park in the wrong parking lot- it's hilarious!), and down the street there are about 3 more dental offices and a huge dental group. it seems like whereever i drive in my town there's a group of at least 3 dental offices next to each other. it's ridiculous! i want to go to a place where there's less bloody competition, where dentists are precious and not excessive, and where there's more of a demand for dentists. i can totally understand the fact that dentists aren't evenly distributed- i mean, i love my hometown, but i would hate to open up a practice here!
Gavin-
since u go to Arizona dental school, would u consider opening up a practice in Arizona? plus, what kinds of things are there to do for fun in Az? thanks.
-i visited arizona last year and it left a positive impression on me. i like the 300+ days of sunshine, and especially the Sonoran desert! in cali where i live there's also 300+ days of sunshine, but there seems to be so many urban dentists in my city, so many, it seems, that they end up opening up their practice when there are already a sufficient amount of clinics in the immediate area- my dentists' office is adjacent to two other dental offices (the three dental offices are RIGHT next to each other, and they get on each others nerves when patients park in the wrong parking lot- it's hilarious!), and down the street there are about 3 more dental offices and a huge dental group. it seems like whereever i drive in my town there's a group of at least 3 dental offices next to each other. it's ridiculous! i want to go to a place where there's less bloody competition, where dentists are precious and not excessive, and where there's more of a demand for dentists. i can totally understand the fact that dentists aren't evenly distributed- i mean, i love my hometown, but i would hate to open up a practice here!
Gavin-
since u go to Arizona dental school, would u consider opening up a practice in Arizona? plus, what kinds of things are there to do for fun in Az? thanks.
fun? What's that? I'm in dental school, remember? 🙂
Yes, I would seriously considering opening a practice here. Good environment for doing so and a huge patient base.
There's lots to do here. You have to remember that 9 months of the year you can pretty much spend outside the entire time. That means lots of sports, hiking, camping, swimming, boating, etc.
Our ASDOH softball team will be able to play year-round here, which is a new experience for many.
Phoenix is the 5th largest city (population) is the US, so there is plenty to do. San Diego is only a 30 minute flight away (some classmates head there on the weekends), and Mexico is equally close.
Las Vegas is a short trip away, as is the beautiful parks of southern Utah.
Then again, you could always study.
Yes, I would seriously considering opening a practice here. Good environment for doing so and a huge patient base.
There's lots to do here. You have to remember that 9 months of the year you can pretty much spend outside the entire time. That means lots of sports, hiking, camping, swimming, boating, etc.
Our ASDOH softball team will be able to play year-round here, which is a new experience for many.
Phoenix is the 5th largest city (population) is the US, so there is plenty to do. San Diego is only a 30 minute flight away (some classmates head there on the weekends), and Mexico is equally close.
Las Vegas is a short trip away, as is the beautiful parks of southern Utah.
Then again, you could always study.
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- Dentist
Gavin, you must love driving! Mapquest says 7.5 hours to Vegas and 9.5 to Bryce Canyon.
I live 5 minutes from the AZ school and can get to Vegas in 5 hours and that goes for San Diego as well. Keep in mind that its only $29 to fly to either of these places on Southwest. You would be crazy to drive anyway! Mapquest figures that everybody drives 55 so I wouldn't rely too heavily on those numbers you got.
7.5 hours to Vegas isn't even close! I can drive it in 3.5. Or, fly it for 30 minutes and $20-$30.
Plus, driving isn't a big deal. After melting your mind in class for month after month, driving can be stimulating.
Besides, we have plenty of time to drive. It's called a 3 week Thanksgiving vacation.
Besides, we have plenty of time to drive. It's called a 3 week Thanksgiving vacation.
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Agreed, mapquest overestimates. However anything over two hours is getting pretty long to me.
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Mapquest is a joke. They will usually provide the longest way possible. I tried to use it a couple of times to go to places in Phoenix. They provided me with the longest route possible to a destination. One route was estimated to take 45 minutes. I didn't believe it. I called friends and found out the real way to get there. The trip took me 15 minutes. Mapquest told me to take all these ridiculous side streets etc. So I can imagine how they could take a 4.5 hour drive to Vegas and stretch it to 7 hours. Ridiculous!
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2pac
i guess a lot of people had bad experiences with mapquest. there must be a conspiracy behind mapquest- the gasoline companies and mapquest must be plotting together to max. profits by providing drivers with the longest route. busters. 😛
L
le fort guy
As we digress, I agree with you guys about mapquest. It is horrible. They gave me directions last week using a road that hasn't even been constructed yet.
Back to the main topic on dentists income. I think that the salaries are extremely under reported. Its because as a business owner many of your expenses can be written off. I've even heard of 1/5th your mortgage being tax deductable if you have an office at home. I know a guy who wrote off a $20K trip to Hawaii because he took his wife who does the accounting.
I spoke with a another general dentist in the valley recently who told me that he has 1200 patients that generate approximately $1.2 million for him annually. With an overhead of 75% this works out to $300K per year. With some help from his accountant he is not paying taxes on the $300k but more like $160-180K because of the tax breaks and write offs. I would be willing to bet that the ones who are reporting $90-100K that have their own practice, where I live, are either working part time or have great accountants
"You don't even know what a write off is;" "but they do and they're the ones writing it off" (Jerry Seinfeld and Cosmo Kramer).
Back to the main topic on dentists income. I think that the salaries are extremely under reported. Its because as a business owner many of your expenses can be written off. I've even heard of 1/5th your mortgage being tax deductable if you have an office at home. I know a guy who wrote off a $20K trip to Hawaii because he took his wife who does the accounting.
I spoke with a another general dentist in the valley recently who told me that he has 1200 patients that generate approximately $1.2 million for him annually. With an overhead of 75% this works out to $300K per year. With some help from his accountant he is not paying taxes on the $300k but more like $160-180K because of the tax breaks and write offs. I would be willing to bet that the ones who are reporting $90-100K that have their own practice, where I live, are either working part time or have great accountants
"You don't even know what a write off is;" "but they do and they're the ones writing it off" (Jerry Seinfeld and Cosmo Kramer).
