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It's common knowledge that every single medical school in the country has above average Step 1 scores. At least that is what they will tell you if you ask them.
Agreed. This info is not published. And as a result, many med schools use that as a license to lie. Or not so much lie, but rephrase the question so they can answer a certain way. Some places are above average, some claim to be above average for US schools, some say above average over the last X years, some only include retakes when calculating their scores so they can claim to be at or above average, etc. etc. So ignore this info.
The whole reason it's not distributed is because schools as a group want you to ignore it. If you didn't, it would tie their hands in terms of quality teaching (experimental things, like clinical correlations, PBL, virtual labs, etc), and they would be forced to "teach to the boards" like the offshore schools do, out of fear that deviating from the group might somehow result in lower scores and a loss of competitive rankings. Most agree (including the NBME who writes the boards) that the boards are a terrible yardstick for quality of education, that the schools that focus on these are really only doing half their job, and that the boards are only meant to test for a desired minimum for licensing (which is why 90% of US students pass). As a result, no school wants to have as their primary target the boards, and have their hands tied to have to produce scores that undergrads are going to rely on as evidence of a "better" school -- the schools want to focus on things that are actually important.
Additionally, it's not very likely that the schools have much to do with board scores. Everyone covers the same material, everyone uses the same review books and same question banks. So how you do on the boards has very little to do with anything your school does and a ton to do with how much effort you put in and how good your memory and study skills are. So to the extent some schools score better, they are winning or losing this battle in admissions -- the person with the same abilities and work ethic should do about the same regardless of what school he attends. The boards are very external to the school. Most schools don't offer any review for them, and no schools won't cover all of the material you will ultimately see on the boards. So the dude who is going to get a 260 shouldn't care what school he is going to go to -- it's the school who selects for him more than is involved in getting him to that point.
Best to ignore this. Pick schools for useful factors, not ones that they are happy to take credit for but won't have anything to do with.
Is there a place where we can look up average USMLE scores of students by school?
Additionally, it's not very likely that the schools have much to do with board scores. Everyone covers the same material, everyone uses the same review books and same question banks. So how you do on the boards has very little to do with anything your school does and a ton to do with how much effort you put in and how good your memory and study skills are. So to the extent some schools score better, they are winning or losing this battle in admissions -- the person with the same abilities and work ethic should do about the same regardless of what school he attends. The boards are very external to the school. Most schools don't offer any review for them, and no schools won't cover all of the material you will ultimately see on the boards. So the dude who is going to get a 260 shouldn't care what school he is going to go to -- it's the school who selects for him more than is involved in getting him to that point.
You make some good points but I have to disagree with a chunk of it. Schools have been changing quite a bit in the last few years, and I could tell the difference between schools during my interviews. Although most schools cover the same material, they methods vary greatly from school to school.
A good indicator of whether scores are based solely on a smart student body or the school's curriculum is whether or not changes in the curriculum have made a direct impact on the scores of students.
I can really only speak for USC: After changing the curriculum, their average improved from a 220 to 233 in roughly 4-5 years. Such a dramatic change can be attributed to changes made in their curriculum since the composition of their student body did not change very much. The same CANNOT be said for other medical schools since many schools' average Step 1 score hover around the mean despite curricular changes. Also, I agree that most schools do not offer review courses, but many in fact do.
In short, I don't think choosing a school based on their board score is a good idea, but a good mean score can be a good indicator of the strength of a student body and strength of the program.
Yea, in the past week.Congratulations, you're the 1,000th person to start a thread on this topic.
I agree with Law2Doc. I doubt that your academic experiences at your school are going to make much difference. I am taking Step One in June. My score is really dependant upon me, and how well I prepare. I have 6 weeks, how I spend that 6 weeks, and my own skills as a test taker, will determine how well I do. I like my school, but really, my score and my success rests on my shoulders, all of the med schools give you the information that you need to do well, but you have to do the work, and, folks, have varying abilities as test takers.
That is what everyone always says, then 3 years down the road it is exactly the same. There is always some speculation out there that is never correct.Plus, by the time many of you matriculate the NBME is likely to have changed the boards to a 2-step licensing exam (one in medical school after 3rd year, one in residency). So the relevance of STEP1 scores in that new environment is even more questionable.
That is what everyone always says, then 3 years down the road it is exactly the same. There is always some speculation out there that is never correct.
Well, I got my info from the USMLE website -- posted in June 2008:
"...We anticipate that the entire (redesign) process will take a minimum of four years and quite possibly longer before it will impact any test-takers..."
Just saying that people entering medical school a couple of years from now might have a very different structure than what we have now. Many medical schools faculties are already investigating curriculum changes to accommodate a new licensing exam -- I know it's on the radar at my school.
Well, I got my info from the USMLE website -- posted in June 2008:
"...We anticipate that the entire (redesign) process will take a minimum of four years and quite possibly longer before it will impact any test-takers..."
Just saying that people entering medical school a couple of years from now might have a very different structure than what we have now. Many medical schools faculties are already investigating curriculum changes to accommodate a new licensing exam -- I know it's on the radar at my school.
Yeah, no f%%$ing way your average is 233.
I think it's going to take longer than they project, but it will happen eventually. The NBME has published proposals, agendas and timelines, and this has been vetted and discussed in a couple of meetings -- it's beyond simply a rumor. I'd say the folks on the high school board are the ones most likely to see the changes. I don't know if they will like them though, because that just means residencies are going to focus on or require something else (very possibly worse than Step 1).
Again, if they changed the curriculum in the attempt to better train physicians, and the board scores were perceived to have gone up or down, this is EXACTLY why places don't want board scores published. They need the freedom to make these changes, because the board scores are NOT a good litmus for quality of education - passing is an expected minimum, but any number above passing was never intended to be used to suggest anything, and probably doesn't. The NBME is working furiously to revamp the boards to stop people/residencies from using these scores in this way, because it's such a bad yardstick, and was never intended as such. A school could teach to the boards, and end up horrible clinicians, or vice versa. Such is the danger with setting an objective minimum -- people still want to measure and see whose is bigger. It's unlikely that revamps of curriculum have a direct effect on board scores -- you can't really know because every class that takes Step 1 is different and you run into a lot of true - true and unrelated issues. One year the admissions guys do their job well and in another not as well, and suddenly you are blaming PBL for the drop off. There's no good data to support this -- there simply can't be because the class isn't fungible -- each year is going to be 100% different. (and FWIW, your numbers are as dubious as any considering this is not publicized anywhere legit, and all schools make claims that cannot be verified -- you cannot buy into this kind of data, be it the supposed numbers of USC or of those schools you claim hover around the mean -- not published anywhere legit means you don't know and are relying on somebody making stuff up).
People - don't rely on this to pick a school. The schools are selecting you as someone who will score well, you aren't selecting a school that will help you score well. This is something very external to the school, in which the school probably can't make much impact beyond perhaps giving you an extra week or two over the summer to study. You are going to do well or not on this test depending on your own abilities, determination, memory, and discipline. Everyone uses the same First Aid, question banks, and all med schools will have covered all the material you are likely to find on the test in some fashion, whether in the same or different style. Doesn't matter how -- that is going to be basic overview upon which you build your studying during the six weeks or so you spend going through the board reviews and qbanks.
Yeah, no f%%$ing way your average is 233.
I'm having a hard time believing that any school has a step one average that's almost one SD over the natl mean. Especially without any actual evidence of such a feat.
USC definitely has a 233 avg, it was published on their school health newsletter and they issued a press release about it. There are other schools with higher step 1 averages though. I believe Vandy last year was in the mid 240s.
USC definitely has a 233 avg, it was published on their school health newsletter and they issued a press release about it. There are other schools with higher step 1 averages though. I believe Vandy last year was in the mid 240s.
I'm having a hard time believing that any school has a step one average that's almost one SD over the natl mean. Especially without any actual evidence of such a feat.
Congratulations, you're the 1,000th person to start a thread on this topic.
I'm pretty sure the numbers I reported are not 'perceived' or dubious, seeing as how they are reported from the school, the dean, and from the admissions records and the school is completely an open book in terms of their numbers and scores which have been confirmed by a number of sources....
i guess not
and i'm a she
so far i've got two responses to my question
mayo 239
usc 233
Why not create a school rankings list based upon match lists? Not too shabby of an idea if you ask me. I bet this would closely correlate to the step 1 average.
Some will say it will be close to the actual rankings, but I think many people will be surprised. For example, Georgetown would probably be a top 25 school when looking at their match list and NYMC would probably be a top 50 school. Georgetown is ranked about 40th I think and NYMC is not even ranked.
...
Here's a random question I've been wondering for a while: At which stage in his/her training is Law2Doc? He/She's been posting as a "knower of all" since I was premed. Now that I approach my 4th year in medical school I wonder if Law2Doc is either well into residency by now or someone who was posting as an old sage while really a premed/first year medical student. The advice is usually pretty good....it's just an innocent question.
Fos?
Fos?
I don't care to divulge personal details, but only post on things I feel I have useful knowledge (from experience) to bestow. Folks are free to take or ignore that which they deem useful. Glad you find some of it good.
Law2Doc is legit. My guess is that he is now in residency. If I were a gambler, I would say first or second year of residency. Since he was a lawyer, he probably started med school in his late twenties, so the guy is probably in his early thirties. My guess around 32 or 33, perhaps 34, not 35, 35 would be too old. I think 33. Just a guess. Anyway, he deserves his privacy. He reminds me of Batman. Mysterious. The Bruce Wayne of SDN.
i heard Univ of Florida's average was around like 260 due to tim tebow scoring a 450 on the step Is during halftime of the championship game
Props to you for that one, I wasn't expecting to laugh out loud while reading this thread
did you ever see the "chat" between erin andrews and tim tebow