Avoiding the Caribbean

[JimmyB123]

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One of my friends, also my co-worker, is considering attending a caribbean medical school in the fall. We both had borderline MD stats (~3.7/32) but I went ahead and applied to DO schools while he only applied to MD stateside. I ended up getting accepted somewhere while he didn't and he is now going to his caribbean school interview (I'm 99% sure he will be accepted).

How I do I bring up the fact that he probably shouldn't go to the Caribbean? He carries the idea that "it doesn't matter where you go for medical school." I want to be a good friend and tell him to apply again. But I also don't want to hurt his feelings or sound condescending even though I really think he is disillusioned. To make matters worse we have several co-workers who got into MD schools stateside who don't say a single thing about this matter to him! One of our co-workers (who got into a Top 5 medical school!) simply told him that it is fine if he goes to caribbean school as long as he works hard. I think that's such poor advice. How would you guys approach a friend that was contemplating this route?

 

[Mad Jack]

One of my friends, also my co-worker, is considering attending a caribbean medical school in the fall. We both had borderline MD stats (~3.7/32) but I went ahead and applied to DO schools while he only applied to MD stateside. I ended up getting accepted somewhere while he didn't and he is now going to his caribbean school interview (I'm 99% sure he will be accepted).

How I do I bring up the fact that he probably shouldn't go to the Caribbean? He carries the idea that "it doesn't matter where you go for medical school." I want to be a good friend and tell him to apply again. But I also don't want to hurt his feelings or sound condescending even though I really think he is disillusioned. To make matters worse we have several co-workers who got into MD schools stateside who don't say a single thing about this matter to him! One of our co-workers (who got into a Top 5 medical school!) simply told him that it is fine if he goes to caribbean school as long as he works hard. I think that's such poor advice. How would you guys approach a friend that was contemplating this route?

Tell him to come on SDN and talk to Skip.

 

[On Eagle's Wings]

Tell him to come on SDN and talk to Skip.

+1

 

[WingedOx]

We both had borderline MD stats (~3.7/32)

ehhh, I would hardly call that borderline. Though I suppose it depends on what state you're in. Either way, an MD should have been possible for both of you if you applied smartly.

One of our co-workers (who got into a Top 5 medical school!) simply told him that it is fine if he goes to caribbean school as long as he works hard.

People can be plenty "smart" and still be really poorly informed.

 

[deleted380953]

Tell him to come on SDN and talk to Skip.

Who's skip?

 

[baxt1412]

You tell him (privately) that you had some concerns that you wanted to bring up and see how receptive he is. Don't force it down his throat if he is adamant about going there. Present what you know and leave it at that... you can lead a horse to water but.....

 

[Mad Jack]

Who's skip?

Skip Intro, he's the Obi Wan of the Caribbean forums.

 

[MrChance2]

Wow at 3.7 and MCAT 32 being borderline for MD school. That has to be around average acceptee numbers at ~ 1/2 the schools. I'm not an expert and don't go to the Caribbean but they are still matching people. I'm more scared for the people with 3.2 and 23MCAT and depression that think they are going to go to go to the Caribbean then fulfill their lifelong dream of becoming a dermatologist than an MCAT 32 GPA 3.7 guy. I assume he would match somewhere if he kept up the effort. That said it might be more hassle or more of a negative than waiting a year and reapplying.

 

[NYCdude]

If you're really his friend and care about him, you'll force it down his throat and get him to realize that the Caribbean is a bad option.

I'd rather have friends who hurt my feelings but don't let me do something stupid, rather than "friends" who don't care enough to do so.

I'm not saying you should be abrasive, but use your judgment and be less than formal if need be.

 

[referee3]

You shouldn't say anything to him. All this means is that in 4 years there will be one more possible residency spot open to you. 😏

JK. Follow Baxt's advice.

 

[PlaqueBuster]

You can only lead the horse to water but cannot make it drink

 

[Goro]

A 3.7/32 are the stats for the average acceptee for MD schools in the US. If your friend didn't get accepted, he either: applied late, had a poor PS or secondary; has an IA or felony, applied to too many reaches, didn't apply to enough schools, or strategically, or was lacking the in the ECs dep't.

If you're really his friend, tell him to get feedback on his rejections, and apply better next near.

Unless he really wants to be unemployed and deeply in debt?

 

[baxt1412]

A 3.7/32 are the stats for the average acceptee for MD schools in the US. If your friend didn't get accepted, he either: applied late, had a poor PS or secondary; has an IA or felony, applied to too many reaches, didn't apply to enough schools, or strategically, or was lacking the in the ECs dep't.

If you're really his friend, tell him to get feedback on his rejections, and apply better next near.

Unless he really wants to be unemployed and deeply in debt?

lol who wouldn't want that???

 

[JimmyB123]

Thanks for the feedback. Actually I too was not able to land an MD acceptance this cycle, albeit I did get into what I consider to be a good DO school. It's getting competitive even if you have good stats. My secondaries, PS, and LORs were average so maybe that was why. No sweat though. I'm just happy to be able to become a doctor.

Maybe I'll show him some quantitative data to back up my argument because otherwise it'll just be a "I heard so and so about the Caribbean." I just don't get how someone clearly smart enough doesn't get why caribbean is a bad choice. Haven't people been preaching this for years?!

 

[ridethecliche]

Because those schools are good at marketing themselves and people often can't see far enough into the future to look past the MD behind their name.

 

[Doug Underhill]

The Caribbean schools have a powerful allure. They show beaming IMGs landing reasonably good US residencies. They show what they claim are state-of-the-art facilities and talk about step scores and match rates, obscuring what they had to do to reach those statistics. They promise that you, too, are a top-tier applicant, and you, too, can become a doctor! You can have M.D. after your name, and your parents will be proud of you, and then your hardest decision in life is deciding which of your six Ferraris to drive to work. The critics are wrong. Those mean old trolls on the Salty D.O Network don't know a damn thing about how great Caribbean medical education is. They want to steal you away for their DO programs where they just fondle each other all day with pseudoscience and then land a boring old family medicine residency.

In reality, the Caribbean really is the Isle of Misfit Pre-meds. It is a maquiladora of sadness and crushing debt. In our culture, getting rejected from med school can be too much to bear. Instead, it delays the pain of not getting to be a doctor for several years, at the price of hundreds of thousands of dollars. Don't do it. If you can't do MD, do DO, and if you can't do DO do PA or nurse practitioner. Caribbean medical schools: not even once.

 

[technician]

Carribean schools for MD are the equivalent of getting a degree from for-profit online schools for undergrad. Sure, you CAN be successful, but the statistics are not in your favor.

Edit: 50% of carib grads do not match into a program and are left with the $200k in debt with no means to pay it off

 

[Manifester]

If you're really his friend and care about him, you'll force it down his throat and get him to realize that the Caribbean is a bad option.

I'd rather have friends who hurt my feelings but don't let me do something stupid, rather than "friends" who don't care enough to do so.

I'm not saying you should be abrasive, but use your judgment and be less than formal if need be.

I like having friends like you 🙂
It's important to surround yourself with people who are truly honest with you. We all need a rude awakening every now and then.

 

[JimmyB123]

Wow. There are people that straight up go to the caribbean without knowing any of the hurdles associated with such action. These are the people that amaze me.

 

[JimmyB123]

My friend is too excited about the opportunity to study abroad in the UK, Thailand, Hong Kong, etc. to really care about the downsides of going to the caribbean. It's really tough for me to get a conversation going and point out the negatives without sounding like a D-bag.

 

[Gyromance]

@JimmyB123

If I were in your shoes, I would casually bring up where you both see yourselves after medical school. I'm going to take a wild guess and assume your friend says he is doing some sweet residency somewhere in the US. If my guess is correct, I'd bring up stuff mentioned in this piece. Long story short, it shows how Caribbean med schools have a tough time getting students into US clerkships and the Carib graduate challenges in getting a residency.

Think of ways how he would rationalize his decision to go to the Carib. From what I have read on the Carib forums here, most people assume that the Carib is just like a US med school in the third-world. I would tell stories and present data that shows how misguided he is for assuming that he will automatically get a clerkship for his M3 and M4 years. The article I linked to states how the Carib schools are forced to pay top dollar for clerkship spots in the US and how US schools are getting ticked off by that. That does not bode well for their future.

There are also stories of how Carib residents were horribly prepared for residency and had to be fired. Residency firings are pretty rare from what I understand. Yet, I can envision a residency director thinking" I'm never taking a resident from that school again!" after a firing a graduate for incompetence.

Present or give hints to an alternative plan for him. There are many successful re-applicants on SDN. Ask if some of these people on SDN would be willing to share their experiences and be able to tell him how they went about reapplying in the US. Eliminate or minimize any stigmas he may have about reapplying or DO school if it comes down to it.

Finally, I should commend you for truly thinking about your friend and not just doing the easy thing of confirming his Carib decision!

 

[medic86]

My friend is too excited about the opportunity to study abroad in the UK, Thailand, Hong Kong, etc. to really care about the downsides of going to the caribbean. It's really tough for me to get a conversation going and point out the negatives without sounding like a D-bag.

Who cares if you sound like a D-bag? This guy is about to make his own future much more difficult.

 

[JimmyB123]

Oh, new update. My friend's parents are paying for the medical education - all of it. When you're that rich, I guess you don't really care about consequences?

 

[aprimenumber]

Oh, new update. My friend's parents are paying for the medical education - all of it. When you're that rich, I guess you don't really care about consequences?

Just because your friend's parents can afford it doesn't necessarily mean that they're rich. 200k-400k down the drain can still be a hefty sum for people who can afford to front it, and it's likely that his parents may be overestimating the likely yield of their investment by not recognizing the financially risky nature of their decision.

I know of parents who have multiple children aged significantly apart. They may sometimes put in a lot of money towards the oldest child's career ambitions with the hope that the oldest child will find a well-paying profession and be able to contribute towards the financial future of his/her younger sibling(s).

 

[hoihaie]

Oh, new update. My friend's parents are paying for the medical education - all of it. When you're that rich, I guess you don't really care about consequences?

have his parents pay for a new academic hospital wing and get him into that med school 🙂

 

[KN.MD]

You can show him this post---Carribbean schools are a poor poor poor choice for a number of reasons:

1) They have a way higher attrition rate than normal US medical schools. This means that many of their students do not make it to graduation for whatever reason. You are still on the hook for the tuition irrespective of the result.
2) Your ability to access US federal government loans is tenuous. There have been movements in Congress to reassess whether Caribbean schools (which are typically For-Profit) should have access to these funds.
3) You can essentially rule out the competitive residencies out. Surgical residencies, radiology, dermatology, ophthomology positions have very very low percentages of matching Caribbean graduates in recent years. While it is possible to do a ton of pre-lim years and sneak in when an opening pops up, you will be subjecting yourself to successive hellish "intern years."