Away rotations for below average DO

[zonazoo34]

Hey everyone long time lurker. I am curious if anyone has personally rotated at certain institutions that they felt really helped get them an interview or even matched at as a below average applicant. I have read all the posts regarding the "bottom tier" programs and to apply broadly and yes away rotations may help but they may hurt as well. I am a DO student with a 480 comlex and 210 usmle and plan on applying to 60-70 programs or so. My school allows me to do 6 months of away rotations so I would really like to go do that and show rotations I am more than just my scores. Any programs you guys have been to that you felt your away really helped you get that interview that you may not have got looked at otherwise? I have family in Florida and Texas but am open to go anywhere (single guy no kids). Thanks!

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[BigBank]

I think as a med student its pretty difficult to stand out on an away rotation on anesthesia. I think its easier to hurt yourself then help yourself. I did a few away rotations and at end of day found no benefit from it. Anesthesia is a unique specialty in that med school really does not prepare you at all for it, it requires a unique skillset that you at this time really dont have. With that said i think theres a lot of things you can do to stand out. Get involved with ASA, sign up to be a med student house of delegate, its easy to do and looks good. Really start networking starting with attendings at your home institution, anesthesia is a pretty small world and everyone knows someone in a power of position. Do some research or get involved in a research project.

 

[zonazoo34]

Thanks for the response. I do not have a home institution (DO school) but I have done an anesthesia rotation here and the valley and got a good letter of rec out of it. I also am an active member with ASA and went to the Chicago conference this past year and did some decent networking, hopefully that helps.

 

[jthedestroyr]

I think as a med student its pretty difficult to stand out on an away rotation on anesthesia. I think its easier to hurt yourself then help yourself. I did a few away rotations and at end of day found no benefit from it. Anesthesia is a unique specialty in that med school really does not prepare you at all for it, it requires a unique skillset that you at this time really dont have. With that said i think theres a lot of things you can do to stand out. Get involved with ASA, sign up to be a med student house of delegate, its easy to do and looks good. Really start networking starting with attendings at your home institution, anesthesia is a pretty small world and everyone knows someone in a power of position. Do some research or get involved in a research project.

Way easier to be annoying. We had an away student go to DNR list (if they listened to resident input).

 

[zonazoo34]

I hear what you're saying, but would those same programs even give me a shot interviewing anyways with my low step score? I feel like I have a better chance trying to rotate there and not annoying them, then I do by hoping my scores will get me an interview and not getting filtered out by cut offs. Does that make sense?

 

[partydoc]

I hear what you're saying, but would those same programs even give me a shot interviewing anyways with my low step score? I feel like I have a better chance trying to rotate there and not annoying them, then I do by hoping my scores will get me an interview and not getting filtered out by cut offs. Does that make sense?

Look at your 3rd year evals. If you're the kind of student that stands out and gets good evals (be honest with yourself here) it may be worth it. Also, its a 1 month long interview, so it's easy to mess up, even if you get along well with everyone but rub just a couple people the wrong way.

 

[zonazoo34]

Look at your 3rd year evals. If you're the kind of student that stands out and gets good evals (be honest with yourself here) it may be worth it. Also, its a 1 month long interview, so it's easy to mess up, even if you get along well with everyone but rub just a couple people the wrong way.

Thanks for the reply. Not to toot my own horn but I have received really good evaluations from all my preceptors including the surgery, IM, and FM directors at my community hospital program. I received a LOR from the FM director and the surgery director wants me to come back during 4th year for my subspecialty rotation which I feel I could get a good letter then as well. We chat in the halls often. I think my evals are a strong point and will help my dean's letter. I really do think I can do away rotations without annoying everyone haha I am just curious if there are programs out there that match a lot of their auditioning students. The hospital I do my rotations at said 90% of their matching applicants were auditioning students but they are smaller community programs so I know that's not the norm for academic hospitals.

 

[deleted697127]

I am not a DO but I think the best thing you could do is skip the away rotation and crush step 2. 210 should not be that difficult to improve upon. (Not being a dick. It's easier to add 20 points to 210 than 230). People study way less for step 2 and you are being compared to a lot of people who just blow it off completely for one reason or another. (Some specalties simply do not care about step 2 so their applicants half ass studying for it) Most people who try will see improvement with minimal effort relative to step 1. The return on investment for your time, money, and effort is best this route.

An improved score erases the red flag and headache a program director risks taking someone with low scores wondering if they will have a resident fail the basic exam/boards after residency.

You have to jump through the hoops you have to jump through.

 

[Katheudontas parateroumen]

Hey everyone long time lurker. I am curious if anyone has personally rotated at certain institutions that they felt really helped get them an interview or even matched at as a below average applicant. I have read all the posts regarding the "bottom tier" programs and to apply broadly and yes away rotations may help but they may hurt as well. I am a DO student with a 480 comlex and 210 usmle and plan on applying to 60-70 programs or so. My school allows me to do 6 months of away rotations so I would really like to go do that and show rotations I am more than just my scores. Any programs you guys have been to that you felt your away really helped you get that interview that you may not have got looked at otherwise? I have family in Florida and Texas but am open to go anywhere (single guy no kids). Thanks!

Are you from AZ? Judging from your name haha. Then definitely do an away at UA! From what I saw on the interview trail, the DOs I rotated with got interviews to the places they did an away at. So seemed worth it to them!

 

[desflurainman]

Away rotation are useless. More chances of hurting than helping. Best advice is to focus your energy on achieving a step 2 score greater than 240 (235 is probably ok). A 210/240 combo of step scores will probably get you 10 interviews, then make best use of those interviews. Thats your best chance of matching. of course apply broadly.

 

[Remxed]

I'm a DO student as well and had similar Step 1/Comlex I scores as you, but absolutely crushed Step 2.

I did 1 away rotation at mid-tier MD program and got an interview there as well as >10 anesthesia interviews in total. I know I'm just one data point, but my best advice for you is improve significantly on Step 2 first. If you want to do away rotations, schedule them after you take Step 2.

 

[zonazoo34]

Thank you all for the response about step 2. I have been studying hard during my rotations and doing well on shelfs and reading step up to medicine. Iv been using Kaplan questions for whatever rotation im on and almost done with all 2000 questions and will begin Uworld Next month. I am taking step 2 in June to make sure I have my score in time for applying. Thanks everyone who has responded! Very helpful

 

[zonazoo34]

Are you from AZ? Judging from your name haha. Then definitely do an away at UA! From what I saw on the interview trail, the DOs I rotated with got interviews to the places they did an away at. So seemed worth it to them!

I did my undergrad at UA and will definitely be applying for a rotation! Glad someone got the name haha. Thanks for your input about their aways!

 

[Daveizzy]

I would say go ahead and do some away rotations, work your ass off, know your patients, get there early, stay late, read. If you have a couple opportunities, then you can really make yourself stand out.

Unless you have some weird personality quirk...

 

[Mabus3]

I had an avg step 1 score but I went up 25 pts on step 2 and I think that really helped me get some interviews. I also did an away rotation early in 4th year but I had spent some time third year during my surgery rotation with anesthesia and I had spent extra time with the anesthesia department at the hospital I was rotating at just prior to the away rotation so I could get all my dumb answers and mistakes out of the way. The PD had told me that he was glad that I decided to do a rotation there and I took it as I might not have gotten an interview without doing that but I could have misinterpreted what he said. That being said, I agree with those who have said that it is really easy to look like you're not doing anything with anesthesia as well as be annoying. I know a student who was rotating there before me had been labeled as really annoying and I'm sure it made it to at least the chiefs. I **HOPE** I didn't leave any impression like that but I tried to show up early, read up on patients, have topics ready to discuss, help wherever I could (that means helping tie gowns, hook up monitors, move the bed in and out of the room, draw up and label meds, ect.) and leaving when they told me I could go home instead of lingering around. I also tried to stay out of the way as much as possible during stressful parts of the case like coming back on pump in the heart room. I would like to think I'm a pretty laid back, easy going person so I think my personality fit well into that roll but maybe everyone thought I was a huge douche and I'll end up scrambling so take my experience with a grain of salt. One attending had told me that they could really care less how good a student was at intubating or how in depth their knowledge base of anesthesia was but more so of how willing the student was to help and how easy they were to work with.

Just put your head down and crush step 2 and apply broadly. I think the away rotation could go either way.

 

[caligas]

Interesting that there is not more support for away rotations as a way in. I was really puzzled by this but realized that I was imagining myself doing an away rotation and not necessarily someone who may or may not have the best personality, work ethic etc.

 

[Bynumite17]

To kind of piggyback on this question: my DO school has all 4th year as electives that you're free to do anywhere pretty much. If I'm interested at that time in applying anesthesia what should I fill these slots with? All IM? Mix of random stuff? Any anesthesia rotations at all? Keep in mind there is no home institution here since it's private DO

 

[Gern Blansten]

To kind of piggyback on this question: my DO school has all 4th year as electives that you're free to do anywhere pretty much. If I'm interested at that time in applying anesthesia what should I fill these slots with? All IM? Mix of random stuff? Any anesthesia rotations at all? Keep in mind there is no home institution here since it's private DO

This is the issue I have posted about before. There are so many upstart for profit osteopathic schools that do not take care of their students. No home institution, poor to non-existant advising, farming them out to who knows where for their clerkships and fourth year, no institutional oversight to make sure they are doing the needed things, advising them to not take the USMLE, etc.
The proliferation of med schools is bad for medicine and should be slowed until GME can make similar adjustments and oversight can be given to these new schools that seem to be just "winging it."
It is a cash cow for the school but they do a disservice to their students because they have not properly planned or created the proper infrastructure. Who is overseeing all of this?
A school with a branch in Nevada, California and New York?
A school in Pennsylvania opens a branch in Florida?
A different school in Pennsylvania decides to open a Georgia campus??
There are so many stories like these. I have met so many students who are just left to their own devices, scrambling to find clerkship rotations out in the boonies with doctors that have no experience working with med students. The learning opportunities are completely left up to chance and have no semblance of structure. It is hard to believe that this is what it has come to. The students all pay them $50,000 plus a year, so the schools want to expand and no one stops them. The result is 500-1000 students every year who cannot get residency spots. Yet they still have, on average, around $200K in debt and no real hope of paying it back. It is really very sad. The school doesn't care, because they got their money.
If I was advising one of my kids, I would never let them attend one of these fly by night upstarts. It's just too risky. I'm not saying you can't get a great education, I'm just saying that too much of the burden will fall onto the student to ensure that they are well trained and, often, they will be on their own trying to get it accomplished. I see it at some of the well established med schools as well, but they generally have the structure to make sure that things are done appropriately.

 

[sunealoneal]

This is the issue I have posted about before. There are so many upstart for profit osteopathic schools that do not take care of their students. No home institution, poor to non-existant advising, farming them out to who knows where for their clerkships and fourth year, no institutional oversight to make sure they are doing the needed things, advising them to not take the USMLE, etc.

In all fairness, at my school anyway, our 4th year is pretty much all electives with no home institution, but we have the infrastructure to do all our rotations in our network if we prefer. For us anyway, when I say "no home institution", I mean no home residency program, not a lack of clerkships.

I agree about lack of advising. On that note, I really want to do a rotation or two at academic centers before ERAS deadline and get a letter of rec or two out of that. Not even places that I'm trying to apply to, maybe institutions competitively out of my reach? I was thinking an anesthesia rotation and one or two in anesthesia-run ICUs...

That way it's a known entity/writer vs well-intentioned community docs. Is that feasible at all?

 

[skypilot]

If you are applying to 60 programs you can afford to roll the dice on an away rotation in hopes of hitting the jackpot!

 

[rakotomazoto]

Do the away rotation. A DO friend of mine was in your position last year, low step 1 score, etc. He matched at one of his away sites. PM me of you want to talk details.

Sent from my SM-G900P using SDN mobile

 

[apr27]

Question:

So, is there is any advantage in doing an away the for sole purpose of just getting a letter? Anesthesia is a tight knit community, so do you think there might be some advantage in doing an away at a very anti-DO program like Stanford or any Ivy but getting a letter from the chair? Presumably you've schmoozed him or her, and will make the letter more personable.

 

[Remxed]

Question:

So, is there is any advantage in doing an away the for sole purpose of just getting a letter? Anesthesia is a tight knit community, so do you think there might be some advantage in doing an away at a very anti-DO program like Stanford or any Ivy but getting a letter from the chair? Presumably you've schmoozed him or her, and will make the letter more personable.

Probably not. One of my classmates did an away at a UC school, got two letters there, met with the PD, got along with with everyone etc. No interview, straight rejection. Of course, an additional factor was that he didn't have any ties to California.

 

[nimbus]

.

 

[nimbus]

Probably not. One of my classmates did an away at a UC school, got two letters there, met with the PD, got along with with everyone etc. No interview, straight rejection. Of course, an additional factor was that he didn't have any ties to California.

The importance of local ties or California ties is being overstated. Most of my cohorts had no local ties and were from all over the map. I was from the opposite coast and never stepped foot in California before my anesthesia interviews. Looking at the current resident list this remains the case. Offering a courtesy interview to a candidate who is not competitive is a waste of time and effort for everyone including the candidate. With the exception of a slight preference for their own medical school students, I don't believe "local ties" is a factor at all for most of the competitive programs.

Also at the time I was there, my program actively discouraged outside medical students from doing anesthesia clerkship for the purpose of "audition".

 

[Katheudontas parateroumen]

I did my undergrad at UA and will definitely be applying for a rotation! Glad someone got the name haha. Thanks for your input about their aways!

Nice! UA takes DO's every year. Good solid program. Friendly people and good work/life balance. No Fellows (other than Pain and ICU) so get to do all the cases. And just to repeat everything everyone else said, Step2 CK matters a lot if you can improve! Good luck!

 

[zonazoo34]

Hey everyone I received an offer to do a pain management rotation at one of the Chicago programs. The OR Anesthesia elective was full but I am assuming pain would be just as beneficial right? Get my face at the program, attend didactics, meet current residents and faculty, and so on. Is there any reason to not do a pain rotation as an away if its a program youre interested in? thanks!

 

[Consigliere]

Hey everyone I received an offer to do a pain management rotation at one of the Chicago programs. The OR Anesthesia elective was full but I am assuming pain would be just as beneficial right? Get my face at the program, attend didactics, meet current residents and faculty, and so on. Is there any reason to not do a pain rotation as an away if its a program youre interested in? thanks!

Yes there are a few reasons NOT to do that: pain rotations absolutely blow and you'll get ZERO OR exposure. You'll be exposed to a couple angry anesthesiology residents forced to do their requisite month of pain, an angry pain nurse doing endless pain rounds, and an angry pain attending who is irritated by your presence.

 

[sunealoneal]

Hey everyone I received an offer to do a pain management rotation at one of the Chicago programs. The OR Anesthesia elective was full but I am assuming pain would be just as beneficial right? Get my face at the program, attend didactics, meet current residents and faculty, and so on. Is there any reason to not do a pain rotation as an away if its a program youre interested in? thanks!

Is this UIC? I emailed them about rotating last Monday. Haven't been emailed back.

 

[zonazoo34]

Hey everyone I appreciated your original responses. I got my step 2 scores back and scored in the 236-240. Didn't destroy the exam but im happy with the improvement from step 1. What do you guys think my plan of the step 2 score? Will I still get screened out of most programs or will I be able to get noticed by some mid tier programs or should I still apply to 80ish? I currently have 2 aways set up at programs I am excited about!

 

[anbuitachi]

Hey everyone I appreciated your original responses. I got my step 2 scores back and scored in the 236-240. Didn't destroy the exam but im happy with the improvement from step 1. What do you guys think my plan of the step 2 score? Will I still get screened out of most programs or will I be able to get noticed by some mid tier programs or should I still apply to 80ish? I currently have 2 aways set up at programs I am excited about!

Apply broadly. id rather overapply than underapply. you can always cancel interviews if you get too many. the money you spend on applying to 80 is nothing in the long run.

 

[castafari]

Hey everyone long time lurker. I am curious if anyone has personally rotated at certain institutions that they felt really helped get them an interview or even matched at as a below average applicant. I have read all the posts regarding the "bottom tier" programs and to apply broadly and yes away rotations may help but they may hurt as well. I am a DO student with a 480 comlex and 210 usmle and plan on applying to 60-70 programs or so. My school allows me to do 6 months of away rotations so I would really like to go do that and show rotations I am more than just my scores. Any programs you guys have been to that you felt your away really helped you get that interview that you may not have got looked at otherwise? I have family in Florida and Texas but am open to go anywhere (single guy no kids). Thanks!

 

[castafari]

I agree that improving on your step two scores would help a lot. This actually came up during a few of my interviews. Also, doing audition rotation at the DO residency program seemed to help more than at the MD programs. The DO programs were smaller and allow for closer interaction with those who make the decisions who to accept. PM me for more info if you like. I was in a similar situation as you.