Awful Md or Good DO

[whoknows2012]

agreed here.

Agree to disagree...NYMC's quality Match results year after year and above average board scores speaks for itself. The quality of student has been going up as evidenced by increasing MCAT score and GPA (since there is no other way to gauge this, and the average allopathic student also reflects this so this is more likely the reason for better quality). Also, as I've said the quality of education can only be improved with additional funds, and there are no faculty changes on the horizon. Granted no one wants the name Touro attached to their school since it doesn't have a good reputation but in and of itself doesn't change anything about NYMC. Stay away from it "like the plague" if you'd like, you would only be hurting yourself.

---

Members don't see this ad.

 

[RogueUnicorn]

Agree to disagree...NYMC's quality Match results year after year and above average board scores speaks for itself. The quality of student has been going up as evidenced by increasing MCAT score and GPA (since there is no other way to gauge this, and the average allopathic student also reflects this so this is more likely the reason for better quality). Also, as I've said the quality of education can only be improved with additional funds, and there are no faculty changes on the horizon. Granted no one wants the name Touro attached to their school since it doesn't have a good reputation but in and of itself doesn't change anything about NYMC. Stay away from it "like the plague" if you'd like, you would only be hurting yourself.

it speaks for its quality in the past, not going forward. also, no offense, but every med school says their board scores are above average... this isn't a knock on NYMC or even Touro, juss sayin.

like i said, there's no free lunch, touro is investing in NYMC, not making a charitable donation; if nothing changes for NYMC, what does Touro get out of it? i recall reading something about NYMC's clinical partners being a primary impetus for the purchase, surely that will impact the education in the near future.

 

[whoknows2012]

it speaks for its quality in the past, not going forward. also, no offense, but every med school says their board scores are above average... this isn't a knock on NYMC or even Touro, juss sayin.

like i said, there's no free lunch, touro is investing in NYMC, not making a charitable donation; if nothing changes for NYMC, what does Touro get out of it? i recall reading something about NYMC's clinical partners being a primary impetus for the purchase, surely that will impact the education in the near future.

If it ain't broke, don't fix it...I highly doubt any changes made would result in a worse medical education, that makes zero sense. As for the first part, you're 100% right but it all follows seeing as nothing is changing so there is no reason to believe good board scores and match results are going to change.

 

[Charles_Carmichael]

Agree to disagree...NYMC's quality Match results year after year and above average board scores speaks for itself. The quality of student has been going up as evidenced by increasing MCAT score and GPA (since there is no other way to gauge this, and the average allopathic student also reflects this so this is more likely the reason for better quality). Also, as I've said the quality of education can only be improved with additional funds, and there are no faculty changes on the horizon. Granted no one wants the name Touro attached to their school since it doesn't have a good reputation but in and of itself doesn't change anything about NYMC. Stay away from it "like the plague" if you'd like, you would only be hurting yourself.

How can you assess the quality based on the Match list? Is there a way you can find out whether the student matched at his/her top choice? And is there any way we can find out, accurately, what a school's board scores are like? It seems like every school says their board scores are above the national average...

 

[RogueUnicorn]

If it ain't broke, don't fix it...I highly doubt any changes made would result in a worse medical education, that makes zero sense.

worse for NYMC, maybe, but certainly better for the students of Touro's various campuses. i have to believe that if Touro has to make a cut somewhere, it'll be from NYMC

As for the first part, you're 100% right but it all follows seeing as nothing is changing so there is no reason to believe good board scores and match results are going to change.

the sale isn't even complete yet from what's been said in this thread, no change could be implemented right now.

 

[whoknows2012]

Also, as a NYMC student I do not take offense to any of these comments because they are often uninformed opinions. The reason for the purchase was that the Archdiocese was broke (as are a bunch of the Catholic hospitals in the NYC metro area, as evidenced by the closing of St. Vincents) and could no longer keep the school going in the future (there was enough money for the near future but beyond that it was unclear if they could support NYMC anymore). I am more than happy to dispel the myths circulating SDN about this situation.

 

[RogueUnicorn]

Also, as a NYMC student I do not take offense to any of these comments because they are often uninformed opinions. The reason for the purchase was that the Archdiocese was broke (as are a bunch of the Catholic hospitals in the NYC metro area, as evidenced by the closing of St. Vincents) and could no longer keep the school going in the future (there was enough money for the near future but beyond that it was unclear if they could support NYMC anymore). I am more than happy to dispel the myths circulating SDN about this situation.

the situation the Archidocese is/was in doesn't in any change the fact that this was an investment by Touro though...

 

[whoknows2012]

worse for NYMC, maybe, but certainly better for the students of Touro's various campuses. i have to believe that if Touro has to make a cut somewhere, it'll be from NYMC


the sale isn't even complete yet from what's been said in this thread, no change could be implemented right now.

Horribly misinformed. There are stipulations in the deal that will ensure nothing like that happens.

 

[eablackwell]

How can you assess the quality based on the Match list? Is there a way you can find out whether the student matched at his/her top choice? And is there any way we can find out, accurately, what a school's board scores are like? It seems like every school says their board scores are above the national average...

I'm pretty sure I read somewhere that this data is mostly self-reported (board scores). I don't know about the match list.

However, I do agree with those saying that the people running a show eventually influence it. Many a wonderfully run business has gone bankrupt due to new management being bad management. Of course it makes no sense to screw up a perfectly well-oiled machine, but some people have no sense, and if you're top dog, that's all she wrote.

 

[whoknows2012]

the situation the Archidocese is/was in doesn't in any change the fact that this was an investment by Touro though...

Of course not...I'm not denying touro made an investment by purchasing the school. What I'm trying to explain, however, is that it would make no sense to run a reputable school into the ground to benefit its other schools that would make no sense. It's a private school with 800 students in the NYC metro area...buying a school like this is an investment in and of itself, and would only become more of one if improvements were made, not the opposite.

 

[chrisoc13]

How can you assess the quality based on the Match list? Is there a way you can find out whether the student matched at his/her top choice? And is there any way we can find out, accurately, what a school's board scores are like? It seems like every school says their board scores are above the national average...

A school I interviewed at said the information regarding students getting their first pick or not is no longer released to schools. If they say they know... they don't.

That being said I have a hard time thinking NYMC won't change to some degree as a result of the change. Obviously whoknows2012 has a vested interest in the school, as does the dean who said nothing would change. I am simply not willing to put my eggs in that basket so I withdrew my application from NYMC after learning more about the situation. Hopefully the school does not suffer from the change, but something will almost certainly change long-term

 

[RogueUnicorn]

Of course not...I'm not denying touro made an investment by purchasing the school. What I'm trying to explain, however, is that it would make no sense to run a reputable school into the ground to benefit its other schools that would make no sense. It's a private school with 800 students in the NYC metro area...buying a school like this is an investment in and of itself, and would only become more of one if improvements were made, not the opposite.

i just don't understand what's in it for Touro. NYMC isn't for profit, so they won't get a financial return from it. what's the deal?

 

[whoknows2012]

I'm an MSII and by the looks of it the deal will not be finalized for at least another year so it really makes no difference to me, I know I'm still getting an excellent education. The issue I have is that people are incorrectly discouraged to apply based on misinformed posts on SDN and I think it's important to address this. It's a great school with a great atmosphere 30 miles from NYC. It happens to be extremely expensive which is a valid reason to not have an interest in attending. Worrying about the touro situation is understandable but this school gets around 10,000 applicants, and I don't see that changing anytime soon.

 

[whoknows2012]

i just don't understand what's in it for Touro. NYMC isn't for profit, so they won't get a financial return from it. what's the deal?

Thats news to me. Private schools don't make money?

 

[RogueUnicorn]

Thats news to me. Private schools don't make money?

 

[Charles_Carmichael]

Thats news to me. Private schools don't make money?

Making money to pay the instructors, etc, is a lot different than being a for-profit school. I could be completely wrong here since finance isn't my thing, but at a for-profit school, the investors come first before the school/students. Not the same at non-profit schools. And there isn't a single for-profit MD school at the moment (RVU is a for-profit DO school).

Edit: Looks like bleargh beat me to it.

 

[whoknows2012]

LOL ya clearly we're on different pages here. Yes they are not for profit but by purchasing NYMC they obviously intend on making money so somewhere in their business plan they are assuming that this will be profitable for them. I can't possibly know their motivations, but as I said before, there are stipulations in the deal that involve the faculty curriculum etc and therefore they will not be able to dismantle to school to improve their other schools.

 

[RogueUnicorn]

LOL ya clearly we're on different pages here. Yes they are not for profit but by purchasing NYMC they obviously intend on making money so somewhere in their business plan they are assuming that this will be profitable for them. I can't possibly know their motivations, but as I said before, there are stipulations in the deal that involve the faculty curriculum etc and therefore they will not be able to dismantle to school to improve their other schools.

exactly. and this profit has to, by just pure business sense, come from NYMC some how. it doesn't need to go so far as dismantling, but it's hard to imagine there being zero impact in all areas.

 

[whoknows2012]

exactly. and this profit has to, by just pure business sense, come from NYMC some how. it doesn't need to go so far as dismantling, but it's hard to imagine there being zero impact in all areas.

Listen, your guess is as good as mine here but we have been ensured that there will be no major changes in the forseeable future. I can only speak from this point of view. It wouldn't make sense to me to invest 30 million dollars into a school only to take it out later and divide it back between your current schools. Obviously the benefit or profit they seek is within NYMC itself and not in re-distributing resources.

 

[Jonathan108]

Not everyone finds that site laughable.

They laughed at Ignaz Semmelweiss, too!

 

[Parts Unknown]

Listen, your guess is as good as mine here but we have been ensured that there will be no major changes in the forseeable future.

I wouldn't exactly take that to the bank. I have been around academic medical centers for 15 years, and I have seen my share of BS. One of the administration's main goals in these processes is to keep the faculty, students, and employees calm. Since they will feed you the exact same line no matter what the true circumstances, their assurances have, IMHO, no value.

What is clear is that a slimeball organization with a long history of slimeball actions is attempting to purchase a financially distressed yet established and accredited allopathic medical school. I wouldn't be very comforted by this.

 

[whoknows2012]

I wouldn't exactly take that to the bank. I have been around academic medical centers for 15 years, and I have seen my share of BS. One of the administration's main goals in these processes is to keep the faculty, students, and employees calm. Since they will feed you the exact same line no matter what the true circumstances, their assurances have, IMHO, no value.

What is clear is that a slimeball organization with a long history of slimeball actions is attempting to purchase a financially distressed yet established and accredited allopathic medical school. I wouldn't be very comforted by this.

As I said, I will be on my way out as this whole thing unfolds, so it is not so much for me but for posters on SDN worried about applying here. I fully agree that assurances from administration and higher ups have no value since they would assure no changes regardless, but I'd like to think the powers that be (who will still "be" even if the deal goes through 100%) wouldn't allow anything negative to happen. Maybe I'm being naive? Sure, but this isn't exactly a common occurrence. Also, the archdiocese had no influence on how the school was run so I'm not sure why everyone is assuming that Touro is just going to take ultimate control and manipulate something that has been working for so long....It isn't the school thats broke, it the archdiocese, so it's not like there is something inherently wrong with the way its currently being run.

 

[MCAT guy]

.

 

[MCAT guy]

.

 

[whoknows2012]

I am going to end this discussion because it is clear that knowing nothing about the ongoing transaction/situation with Touro/NYMC makes you an expert regarding the changes that will take place.

 

[jvesco22]

Listen, your guess is as good as mine here but we have been ensured that there will be no major changes in the forseeable future. I can only speak from this point of view. It wouldn't make sense to me to invest 30 million dollars into a school only to take it out later and divide it back between your current schools. Obviously the benefit or profit they seek is within NYMC itself and not in re-distributing resources.

lolwut. Just had to comment on this. This goes for most fields but you're ensured jack siht unless it's on paper with your signature on it...anything else is just pillow talk to stop a revolution baby!!! YEAH!

 

[whoknows2012]

lolwut. Just had to comment on this. This goes for most fields but you're ensured jack siht unless it's on paper with your signature on it...anything else is just pillow talk to stop a revolution baby!!! YEAH!

Agreed but it would a hell of a lot more disconcerting if they told us to expect changes, some major. I see how it comes off but in the end NYMC higher up's will suffer greatly if they don't hold up to their end of the bargain. So far they have, we'll see where we go from here.

 

[MCAT guy]

.

 

[MCAT guy]

.

 

[whoknows2012]

I think Parts Unknown said it best, here is what I know:

• Touro has a history of taking advantage of students and taking "slimeball" actions (something no one has disputed)
• Touro is attempting to purchase NYMC and seems to be near finalizing
• You have been told (nothing in writing) that everything will stay the same. As one poster mentioned, this doesn't go very far.

That is all I know. You are very right in saying that I don't know what that means for the future, but doesn't it follow that others wouldn't know either?

Either way, character counts.

Actually we have been told in writing, just nothing "signed" as jvesco put it...And you're right I think we can equivocally say no one knows what the future holds. But unless you are a superstar, which you may be based on your attitude, getting into medical school is difficult as hell and I for one will take anyone who would take me. BTW before subsequent posters pick this post apart I am referring to US MD's only since carib takes just about anyone who can spell there name correctly.

 

[whoknows2012]

MCAT guy why do you keep removing your posts?

 

[patel2]

Agreed but it would a hell of a lot more disconcerting if they told us to expect changes, some major. I see how it comes off but in the end NYMC higher up's will suffer greatly if they don't hold up to their end of the bargain. So far they have, we'll see where we go from here.

The problem is that the Touro administration, both in medicine and other fields, actively strives and even prides itself on its ability to maintain the lowest possible standards and quality of education required for accreditation in a given field.

While some have bought into the administration's assurances that nothing at all will change (what else could they possibly say?), some NYMC students (with good reason) seem to be very uneasy and skeptical with this transition.

 

[gplex86]

Both sides are taking on risk. Both sides stand to make gains if they work together.

I think a more reasonable motivation is that Touro can start to pull the rest of their programs up. For NYMC the benefit is investment and inclusion. In most universities, tuition from lower programs (undergrads) allows for investment in higher programs (med schools). Up until now Touro has used that money for rapid expansion. But if this is the end-goal, the capstone, as they have claimed, then Touro undergrads will be paying for NYMC's improvement. Sweet! The stature and reputation from NYMC will then reflect back on Touro. That's how a nonprofit university systems works. Your tuition may not benefit your program but it does get re-invested.

For what it's worth our first experience from Touro has been very positive. NYMC's new dean of medical education (as of last year) is the guy who was going to be dean of the NJ school. Students love him. He's really modernizing the place. If he was running the entire school we'd be much better off.

And if Touro was able to negotiate an affiliation with HUMC (for the NJ MD school), then they can probably twist a few arms to improve NYMC affiliations. That's supposed to be a major benefit to NYMC.

I also wouldn't mind having access to libraries and student housing in the city.

Honestly I'm glad to see the Archdiocese on the way out. Catholic healthcare no longer exists in NYC and the bastards never invested money in NYMC. If you ask around, some will say they even took money from the school.

 

[whoknows2012]

The problem is that the Touro administration, both in medicine and other fields, actively strives and even prides itself on its ability to maintain the lowest possible standards and quality of education required for accreditation in a given field.

While some have bought into the administration's assurances that nothing at all will change (what else could they possibly say?), some NYMC students (with good reason) seem to be very uneasy and skeptical with this transition.

It is the NYMC administration giving the assurances, not Touro. And as I said before, the faculty and administration isn't changing anytime soon. Like, for example, if the deal gets finalized Touro isn't bringing in their own crew to take over, NYMC will still run on its own. In my 15 months here so far the administration hasn't let us astray, and for the most part they've been very upfront with the Touro situation. They set up a website for us where they update us with new information.

 

[gplex86]

They set up a website for us where they update us with new information.

Exactly. And they're supposed to be separate corporations, with Touro appointing the board. Very similar to the NYMC-Archdiocese relationship.

Is it possible that the president of NYMC is a liar? I guess. He could also be an alien, though. But I'm pretty sure he's just an internist.

 

[gplex86]

I mean, I've been a student at NYMC for a long time now. Since even before there were rumors about Touro.

Things have changed over time. There's a lot more campus lighting. The School of Public Health changed names. The cafe switched from Starbucks to Dunkin Doughnuts. St. Vincent's closed. The AMP program started and slightly improved our dating prospects. The font on the NYMC T-shirts is a little different. New machines in the gym. New banners on the lampposts. I think I got laid a few times but not often. Soda prices went up 10 cents.

All sorts of changes but it's still NYMC. I really don't think a new university affiliation is going to uproot the place. But what do I know, I've only been here 3 years.

 

[whoknows2012]

I mean, I've been a student at NYMC for a long time now. Since even before there were rumors about Touro.

Things have changed over time. There's a lot more campus lighting. The School of Public Health changed names. The cafe switched from Starbucks to Dunkin Doughnuts. St. Vincent's closed. The AMP program started and slightly improved our dating prospects. The font on the NYMC T-shirts is a little different. New machines in the gym. New banners on the lampposts. I think I got laid a few times but not often. Soda prices went up 10 cents.

All sorts of changes but it's still NYMC. I really don't think a new university affiliation is going to uproot the place. But what do I know, I've only been here 3 years.

yup

 

[whoknows2012]

Exactly. And they're supposed to be separate corporations, with Touro appointing the board. Very similar to the NYMC-Archdiocese relationship.

Is it possible that the president of NYMC is a liar? I guess. He could also be an alien, though. But I'm pretty sure he's just an internist.

If I was a betting man I'd go with alien

 

[gplex86]

If I was a betting man I'd go with alien

Or Cylon. Some are programed to THINK they're doctors. There are many copies.

 

[IvyHopeful20]

Its why a lot of the osteopathic community discounts the AOA. I'm glad I'm at a top school.

They really do need to govern that stuff better. There are some excellent DO schools but then there is Touro.

The stories about their 3rd/4th year are absolutely unacceptable.

It hurts the whole profession though, right? I mean if I'm a PD in a competitive specialty, if I take an LCME grad, I know that he has inpatient experience and what he has done was up to a strictly mandated standard. On the other hand, if I have a couple bad experiences with DO grads, I would be much less likely to take any DO grad in the future as I don't have time to individually check out his quality of education....

Considering there are now more osteopathic graduates than there are osteopathic residencies (e.g, AOA knows full well that many will have to pick ACGME residencies), it's unconscionable what they seem to be doing.

 

[MCAT guy]

MCAT guy why do you keep removing your posts?

I removed my posts because on second thought I think it is unfair for me to speculate in this situation.

AND... my goal above being a doctor is to be peaceful.

 

[dbeast]

I mean, I've been a student at NYMC for a long time now. Since even before there were rumors about Touro.

Things have changed over time. There's a lot more campus lighting. The School of Public Health changed names. The cafe switched from Starbucks to Dunkin Doughnuts. St. Vincent's closed. The AMP program started and slightly improved our dating prospects. The font on the NYMC T-shirts is a little different. New machines in the gym. New banners on the lampposts. I think I got laid a few times but not often. Soda prices went up 10 cents.

All sorts of changes but it's still NYMC. I really don't think a new university affiliation is going to uproot the place. But what do I know, I've only been here 3 years.

Wasn't it bought by Columbia?

 

[gplex86]

Wasn't it bought by Columbia?

No, the Manhattan hospital has been completely gone for a while now

http://www.nydailynews.com/ny_local...n_neighboring_hosps__and_exworkers_lives.html

There are a few hospitals left that were spun off from the mothership but nothing left in Manhattan.

 

[twentyone]

Touro NY is the DO school in harlem. NYMC is the MD school in Valhalla, and while Touro has purchased NYMC from the archdiocese of Westchester, they are still in the process of working out the deal so it is not set in stone yet. When the deal is 100% set in stone, NYMC will still be NYMC, it will however also be part of the Touro system. Administration, faculty, quality of education etc will not change, so while it isn't great to have Touro attached to your name (especially to an already reputable institution), nothing about the school will change, except maybe improvements to facilities, additional dual degree programs and additional clinical sites with the infusion of cash (30 million+)

Sorry, but this just sounds pathetically similar to what happened to MCPHU/Allegheny University in the mid 90s. Hospitals and med school bought buy large company. Loads of money and clerkship spots. Guy embezzles millions in endowments. Company therefore med school bankrupt. Reputation down the drain. Etc.

Also, from someone who has gone through two of these "nothing will change" things, it is likely that everything will change. Just sayin.

 

[whoknows2012]

Sorry, but this just sounds pathetically similar to what happened to MCPHU/Allegheny University in the mid 90s. Hospitals and med school bought buy large company. Loads of money and clerkship spots. Guy embezzles millions in endowments. Company therefore med school bankrupt. Reputation down the drain. Etc.

Also, from someone who has gone through two of these "nothing will change" things, it is likely that everything will change. Just sayin.

Pretty anecdotal first of all. Second of all you're 100% right. All NYMC students should get out while they can before big bad Touro comes in and steals our money and gives us fake diplomas.

 

[gplex86]

Sorry, but this just sounds pathetically similar to what happened to MCPHU/Allegheny University in the mid 90s. Hospitals and med school bought buy large company. Loads of money and clerkship spots. Guy embezzles millions in endowments. Company therefore med school bankrupt. Reputation down the drain. Etc.

Also, from someone who has gone through two of these "nothing will change" things, it is likely that everything will change. Just sayin.

Last I checked, MCPHU/Allegheny University eventually became Drexel University College of Medicine. It doesn't look to me like things turned out that bad for them. And it's false logic to say that just because one merger went bad, that the same would happen to NYMC. There have been other acquisitions of med schools by universities, you know.

 

[wanderer]

Pretty anecdotal first of all. Second of all you're 100% right. All NYMC students should get out while they can before big bad Touro comes in and steals our money and gives us fake diplomas.

Wouldn't be a first for them....

I think a more reasonable motivation is that Touro can start to pull the rest of their programs up. For NYMC the benefit is investment and inclusion. In most universities, tuition from lower programs (undergrads) allows for investment in higher programs (med schools). Up until now Touro has used that money for rapid expansion. But if this is the end-goal, the capstone, as they have claimed, then Touro undergrads will be paying for NYMC's improvement. Sweet! The stature and reputation from NYMC will then reflect back on Touro. That's how a nonprofit university systems works. Your tuition may not benefit your program but it does get re-invested.

If the (good) reputation from one institution reflects on the other one, then shouldn't it reflect the other way as well?

Based on Touro's general objectives, I can't imagine NYMC not undergoing some sort of name change within the next ~15 years.

 

[whoknows2012]

Wouldn't be a first for them....

Ya and that would be why I chose to say that as opposed to a myriad of other things Touro is supposedly going to do. Like take all of our resources and pawn them off to their DO schools, turn NYMC into a synagogue, and according to the poster above, apparently steal all our endowment funds.

 

[MCAT guy]

I mean this as respectfully as possible, all this information gives pause.

That is all. No one knows what the future holds.

Wouldn't be a first for them....


If the (good) reputation from one institution reflects on the other one, then shouldn't it reflect the other way as well?

Based on Touro's general objectives, I can't imagine NYMC not undergoing some sort of name change within the next ~15 years.

This is my major concern. Touro has shown that their general objectives don't involve helping students but instead increasing profits. I certainly do not respect how they have handled their previous students and the experiences of those students are appalling (which no one disputes).

 

[whoknows2012]

I mean this as respectfully as possible, all this information gives pause.

That is all. No one knows what the future holds.



This is my major concern. Touro has shown that their general objectives don't involve helping students but instead increasing profits. I certainly do not respect how they have handled their previous students and the experiences of those students are appalling (which no one disputes).

Neither me nor Gplex denies the fact that that Touro's reputation is far from excellent. Everyone on here who does NOT have a vested interest in this however fails to recognize the potential benefits.