Awful Md or Good DO

[whoknows2012]

How are our opinions terribly misinformed? From what I recall, MCATguy, myself, and a few others hold the opinion that essentially boil down to - "Touro's reputation is not so hot, its purchase of NYMC might be a bad thing for NYMC" It might not end up being true, but I don't think it's fair to call it misinformed, unless either Touro's reputation is actually great, or that it is not buying NYMC.


thanks, you too

Dude, are you serious? You literally straight up said "I have a hard time believing that if Touro had to make a cut somewhere that it would be from NYMC." Really, this is an informed opinion? How can you tell me that this isn't just BS that is your own opinion of what you already know of Touro, as opposed to the future relationship to be had between the two, which according to UNBIASED sources is going to be the same relationship we had with the Archdiocese (although much improved since money will be infused in).

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[RogueUnicorn]

let me ask you this - you said touro will appoint the board. what's the function of the board at NYMC?

 

[gplex86]

let me ask you this - you said touro will appoint the board. what's the function of the board at NYMC?

Honestly, I have no freaking clue.

 

[MCAT guy]

How are our opinions terribly misinformed? From what I recall, MCATguy, myself, and a few others hold the opinion that essentially boil down to - "Touro's reputation is not so hot, its purchase of NYMC might be a bad thing for NYMC" It might not end up being true, but I don't think it's fair to call it misinformed, unless either Touro's reputation is actually great, or that it is not buying NYMC.

edit: I realize I might be coming off to you as having some anti-NYMC agenda, but seriously, nothing can be further from the truth. I hope it does very well in the future as it has in the past, since it's one of the highest attended med schools for alumni of my college and I have some friends who are going/graduated.

Agreed 100%. I believe bleargh has come off as rational here and he obviously doesn't have any anti-NYMC agenda. I think it is fair to say both gplex and whoknows2012 have vested interest.

Our argument is simply this:

"Touro's reputation is not so hot, its purchase of NYMC might be a bad thing for NYMC"

I would like to bring back my quote from before:

The character of the business or school matters to me and while NYMC is peachy, we have seen people call Touro "slimeballs" with no one defending them, we've seen them create an environment where people decided to sell fake diplomas (this isn't typical, even as a "one-off" event), we've seen them rapidly expand their student body while completely disregarding their current students programs (esp. 3rd/4th yr rotations), we've seen them be greedy, we've heard of many unhappy students in the Touro system, we've seen them called the worst in medical education.

Again, I find it interesting that no one attempts to defend Touro in anyway. There has only been corroboration if anything on these points.

We all agree that it is possible this will have no affect on NYMC, but at the same time, regardless of who the dean is or what they've said or the feeling on campus, the fact remains that an unquestionably horrible university is attempting to enter into a partnership with NYMC.

We can all speculate exactly what this means or doesn't mean, but the fact remains that the school is doing a deal with a dirty organization. Hearing how the new leader is much like Ghandi, saves baby seals, and has never told a lie doesn't erase the last few decades of poor decision making and dirty deeds.

let me ask you this - you said touro will appoint the board. what's the function of the board at NYMC?

Honestly, I have no freaking clue.

I would think the board has the ability to make decisions that affect students. Again, pointing to history, Touro's decisions have NOT reflected the students best interests.

We wish you a good education, for today's applicant this seems uncertain as to what affect Touro will have. I don't believe anything I've stated in this post is disputable, although I may be mistaken.

 

[gplex86]

Agreed 100%. I believe bleargh has come off as rational here and he obviously doesn't have any anti-NYMC agenda. I think it is fair to say both gplex and whoknows2012 have vested interest.

Our argument is simply this:

I would like to bring back my quote from before:



Again, I find it interesting that no one attempts to defend Touro in anyway. There has only been corroboration if anything on these points.

We all agree that it is possible this will have no affect on NYMC, but at the same time, regardless of who the dean is or what they've said or the feeling on campus, the fact remains that an unquestionably horrible university is attempting to enter into a partnership with NYMC.

We can all speculate exactly what this means or doesn't mean, but the fact remains that the school is doing a deal with a dirty organization. Hearing how the new leader is much like Ghandi, saves baby seals, and has never told a lie doesn't erase the last few decades of poor decision making and dirty deeds.





I would think the board has the ability to make decisions that affect students. Again, pointing to history, Touro's decisions have NOT reflected the students best interests.

We wish you a good education, for today's applicant this seems uncertain as to what affect Touro will have. I don't believe anything I've stated in this post is disputable, although I may be mistaken.

Opinions and personal judgments are not facts, and there's no such thing as unquestionable. I don't have enough real information about Touro to write up a concrete judgment, though you seem to think that you do. My only personal experience with Touro is interviewing at the DO school in California, and from that very superficial view I thought it was OK. There's a least one student here who went to Touro undergrad, I guess his opinion would be the most valuable of all. Yours, having no relation to either institution, is not so valuable in this debate in my opinion.

My summary feeling is that there's evidence that the transaction with Touro may be an real opportunity for NYMC. I cite their change in leadership, which I find impressive, and our dean of medical education who came from Touro and who gets rave reviews. Yes, I would have liked a more "sure thing" partner as this one admittedly carries some amount of risk. But this one I think will be OK. If I'm wrong, then I'm wrong.

I'm off to study for the night.

 

[MCAT guy]

Opinions and personal judgments are not facts, and there's no such thing as unquestionable. I don't have enough real information about Touro to write up a concrete judgment, though you seem to think that you do.

Here's what I could find in 3 minutes:

Response to Touro having horrible 3rd/4th yr rotations (while rapidly expanding):

Yeah, and it's not the only thread like that. I don't even pay attention to the DO forums and I've seen at least 5 threads on what a train wreck the Touros' clerkships are.

I'd agree about the 3/4 year rotations. Be careful.

Everyone's right... Touro does not have a very good reputation... Their pass rate for boards isn't all that high either

Not that this has a HUGE bearing on medical school, but Touro's PA and law programs also have bad reps. Touro really gives off the impression that they're in it for the money, like a Caribbean school that somehow snuck into the ranks of the accredited.

Touro bought NYMC but it isn't yet officially part of the Touro university system. Either way it was the first school I withdrew from once I got my first acceptance.

Agreed. Touro is just a really bad university. They just seem to be interested in having every kind of professional degree school, without any regard as to the quality of those schools.

Also see further:
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/19797601
I don't know how pervasive this problem is throughout the school, but still it's pretty ridiculous that the school had no controls in place to prevent that from happening.

10 indicted for allegedly selling bogus degrees

updated 7/16/2007 10:22:30 PM ET 2007-07-17T02:22:30

NEW YORK — Teachers, students and administrators tampered with a private college's computer system to change grades and create fake degrees for money, prosecutors charged Monday. Among the fake degrees given were those for physicians' assistants, they said.
The 10 defendants created or altered records for at least 50 people since January, charging fees of $3,000 to $25,000 for better or deleted grades and for bachelor's and master's degrees, District Attorney Robert Morgenthau said.


Those indicted include Touro College's former director of admissions, the former director of the school's computer center, three former Touro students and three public school teachers, Manhattan prosecutors said.

Well, your problem is crystal clear. Like most osteopathic students, you actually expected to be human while in medical school and have some life not shattered by fat, overpaid, underworked, over-complimented faculty that raise your tuition 5% annually who fail to understand what education is or how to provide it to people that are overpaying for it. I mean, common, getting married, what were you thinking?

You know, I have a REAL problem with people who blame themselves for what is not their fault. I also have a problem with one-legged hookers, but that is a different story.

IT IS NOT YOUR JOB TO PROVIDE YOU WITH GREAT ROTATIONS AND EDUCATION. THAT IS THE JOB OF THE FU**EN SCHOOL THAT YOU BORROW A QUARTER OF A MILLION DOLLARS TO PAY. PERIOD.

I AM SICK AND TIRED OF THESE FU**ED UP SCHOOLS SUCKING THE LIFE OUT OF PEOPLE TO STAY IN BUSINESS AND PROFIT, INSTEAD OF INVESTING YOUR HARD BORROWED MONEY THAT YOU HAVE TO AT LEAST DOUBLE TO RETURN INTO THEIR MOST VALUABLE ASSETS, THEIR STUDENTS.

I WILL TELL YOU, I HAVE BEEN AROUND THE COUNTRY AND HAVE DONE SUB-Is AT HOPKINS, MAYO, TEMPLE, UNIV. PITT AND WHAT I HAVE FOUND IS NOT A SUPERIOR QUALITY IN THEIR STUDENTS, BUT A SUPERIOR INVESTMENT IN THEM.

ITS SAD, BUT REALITY IS THAT OUR STUDENTS HAVE TO WASTE TREMENDOUS TIME, GO THROUGH TREMENDOUS STRESS, TRAVEL TREMENDOUS MILAGE AWAY FROM THEIR HOMES AND SPEND A SHI*LOAD OUT OF THEIR POCKETS IN ADDITION TO WHAT THEY BORROW TO PAY THEIR FU**ED UP SCHOOLS JUST SO THEY CAN GET A GOOD EDUCATION. I CAN'T EVEN CALCULATE HOW MUCH I HAD TO BORROW AND SPEND OUTSIDE OF MY TUITION, JUST TO TRAVEL AND DO ROTATIONS OUTSIDE MY SCHOOLS "LOTTO SYSTEM" SO I WOULD NOT BE FU**ED FOR LIFE.

TELL ME, WOULD YOU BET YOUR EDUCATION ON THE "LOTTO" COMPRISED OF HALF-ASSED PRECEPTOR ROTATIONS IN WANKER-VILLE OR PODUNK?

I MEAN WHEN I THINK ABOUT THE PEOPLE THAT WERE IN CHARGE OF MY CLINICAL EDUCATION AND COMPARE THEM TO PEOPLE THAT I WORK WITH NOW, THEY SIMPLY SHOULD HAVE NEVER BEEN ALLOWED NEAR MEDICAL SUTDENTS. THEY DID NOT EVEN CARE ABOUT WHAT HAPPENED TO THE STUDENT. JUST WANTED TO GIVE YOU A ROTATION AND GET YOU ON YOUR WAY. ONE OF THEM WAS ACTUALLY FIRED BY THE INSURANCE COMPANY HE WORKED FOR AND SOMEHOW GOT A HOOKUP INTO FACULTY AT THE SCHOOL.

Anyways, this is probably the longest post of my SDN career. But there are real problems in the osteopathic education model that have to be repaired in order to better the lives and careers of our students. It simply unethical to double the class size every 2 years, open a new osteopathic school every weekend, charge a ridiculous and continuously rising tuition annually, when the basic education structure (Hospital based rotations, residencies, fellowships) is not even there to support all these increases. Instead, people are forced into desparate crap like going away from their home for a year just to complete maybe fair 3rd and 4th year rotations.

To the OP, don't give up. Search and find yourself an awesome residency program DO or MD to get into, where they will train you to be an awesome physician.

I will tell you about the one-legged hooker another time.

I don't feel that my education was inferior to any of my MD counterparts. I just know that I had to work a hell of lot harder to get it and pay a hell of a lot higher for what I got. I also realize that my school was never behind me or cared much about me. This was also the case for the vast majority of my classmates. They turned out to be outstanding physicians, but had to work harder.

I drove to the rotation sites that Touro-CA and Western students rotate at and all the students I've asked say that their school sucks. I was like "Do you like Western?" and they shake their heads with a sad look on their face. I've also talked to some residents who graduated from Touro-CA and they say that they hate their school because of the rotations. I ask them what is wrong about them and they don't give me a clear answer.

What is clear is that a slimeball organization with a long history of slimeball actions is attempting to purchase a financially distressed yet established and accredited allopathic medical school. I wouldn't be very comforted by this.

The problem is that the Touro administration, both in medicine and other fields, actively strives and even prides itself on its ability to maintain the lowest possible standards and quality of education required for accreditation in a given field.

While some have bought into the administration's assurances that nothing at all will change (what else could they possibly say?), some NYMC students (with good reason) seem to be very uneasy and skeptical with this transition.

But, close your eyes for a moment. Imagine Harvard just bought NYMC. Or MKSCC. Or Einstein. Now open your eyes. Touro. A broke medical school is in talks with the worst medical education system on these shores. The bottom of the bottom.

Yes, I'm sure this is going to end swimmingly.

The fact is, Touro has many different programs and they are all quite bad. Whoever it was that was interviewed seemed to think that some of these programs are actually quite good. From what I know about them, that is far from the truth, and they have no goals of improving some of those (like the undergrad, for example). Also he stressed integration between different health science programs. Honestly, do you want NYMC to have any connection to any of their allied health programs?
It's obvious that Touro only cares about rapid expansion at this point. Having decently run programs is on the backburner.

I can't imagine NYMC not taking a hit from Touro's reputation (eventually).

These are all very negative experiences, some have gone to the schools, others know people who have, etc.


The good things I've heard is that you had a nice interview.

So... yeah.

 

[pe54]

There's an easy solution to all of this. If you're paranoid about NYMC's affiliation with Touro, DON'T GO THERE. This is all an insane amount of conjecture and nobody on either side of the argument has any idea if what they are saying even approaches the truth. The idea that they would cut funding from NYMC is fatuous at best, especially considering it would be their only legitimate enterprise.

So chill.

 

[gplex86]

MCAT Guy,

Opinions are always questionable, and for whatever reason the Internet tends towards negativity. All of what you posted are opinions, and much of the criticism applies to DO schools in general. Many of them, especially the new ones, have rotation issues. You did not post facts.

The degree scandal is a fact. It happened. But whether or not it was the criminal action of individual employees or the university as a whole - that's an opinion. The legal system seems to think that this was the action of individuals, since Touro uncovered the plot, alerted authorities, and cooperated with the investigation.

People will have disagreements about how to INTERPRET the postings about Touro on an Internet board. People will INTERPRET the degree scandal. And from that, people will make an individual judgement as to the quality of the institution. But that's an opinion, not a fact.

 

[JeetKuneDo]

I'm going to apply to Touro-NY, and I will admit, this thread and that old thread that was brought up does scare me a bit. I hope their rotations improve.

 

[MCAT guy]

MCAT Guy,

Opinions are always questionable, and for whatever reason the Internet tends towards negativity. All of what you posted are opinions, and much of the criticism applies to DO schools in general. Many of them, especially the new ones, have rotation issues. You did not post facts.

The degree scandal is a fact. It happened. But whether or not it was the criminal action of individual employees or the university as a whole - that's an opinion. The legal system seems to think that this was the action of individuals, since Touro uncovered the plot, alerted authorities, and cooperated with the investigation.

People will have disagreements about how to INTERPRET the postings about Touro on an Internet board. People will INTERPRET the degree scandal. And from that, people will make an individual judgement as to the quality of the institution. But that's an opinion, not a fact.

Good luck to you Gplex. I believe the experiences/opinions of the medical students, friends of medical students, pre-meds who have talked to them, and the attendings that have chimed in are worth contemplating.

I think the degree scandal (which strangely follows the same Touro philosophy that has been repeatedly mentioned in the opinions/quotes above) also matters, regardless of who was determined to be at fault by the legal system. OJ Simpson wasn't determined to be at fault either.

I'm glad I took the time to look at all the experiences/opinions and it is good that others will have the same opportunity by reviewing this thread. Opinions matter.

I'm fine with ending the discussion here. Again, good luck to you and I wish you the best.

 

[MCAT guy]

I'm going to apply to Touro-NY, and I will admit, this thread and that old thread that was brought up does scare me a bit. I hope their rotations improve.

My intention was never to scare, but more to inform.

I would recommend you read everything here but then also see if you can contact students or others who know about the school. After you do your own investigation, then be scared or not. It is very possible that the people above were negative by nature, or maybe the school is at fault. I don't know.

 

[gplex86]

My intention was never to scare, but more to inform.

I would recommend you read everything here but then also see if you can contact students or others who know about the school. After you do your own investigation, then be scared or not. It is very possible that the people above were negative by nature, or maybe the school is at fault. I don't know.

There's something weird about the Internet in that opinions tend to skew more negatively. If you went by Internet opinion on 9/11, you'd think it was all an internal job by the US Gov't. Or that there weren't really planes. Seriously. So I caution you to not put so much stock in Internet forums. There are about 20,000 people enrolled in Touro programs and many more alumni. Even if 100 people posted scathing comments I would still be skeptical. The people who post the most are the ones who are pissed off.

My best to you as well.

 

[MCAT guy]

There's something weird about the Internet in that opinions tend to skew more negatively. If you went by Internet opinion on 9/11, you'd think it was all an internal job by the US Gov't. Or that there weren't really planes. Seriously. So I caution you to not put so much stock in Internet forums. There are about 20,000 people enrolled in Touro programs and many more alumni. Even if 100 people posted scathing comments I would still be skeptical. The people who post the most are the ones who are pissed off.

My best to you as well.

Agreed that the internet tends to attract people who want to complain.

So I guess take everything above with a grain of salt.

 

[Bacchus]

As far as Touro goes... if you're applying to it's NY, NV, or CA program you more than likely aren't competitive for allopathic schools. With that said, there are enough osteopathic programs that it shouldn't make you quiver or scared of not being granted admission.