Back x-rays in the ER

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611

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Why is it almost every patient that goes to the ER with very acute back pain (you have to figure that if someone goes to the ER for back or neck pain they are in extreme pain for whatever reason) does not have an x-ray taken of the area of complaint? Even if the pain is due to trauma, there is rarely an x-ray taken, atleast in my area of the country. Just wondering if someone can shed some light on this? Thanks.

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611 said:
Why is it almost every patient that goes to the ER with very acute back pain (you have to figure that if someone goes to the ER for back or neck pain they are in extreme pain for whatever reason) does not have an x-ray taken of the area of complaint? Even if the pain is due to trauma, there is rarely an x-ray taken, atleast in my area of the country. Just wondering if someone can shed some light on this? Thanks.

xrays show fractures...typical er back pain does not give a hx consistent with fx......"I slept in a new bed, I lifted a box, I was rearended at 2 miles an hr, my chiropractor says I need xrays, etc"
none of these are legitimate reasons to get a stat xray...unless you suspect an occult fx for some reason you need to be guided by the mechanism of injury....and if the mechanism is not consistent with fx then it is just a waste of 150 dollars + and some radiation exposure....an ls series xray is 100x the radiation exposure of a cxr....
if the pt is > 50 yrs old I am more likely to get a film to look for malignancy, etc
 
emedpa said:
xrays show fractures...typical er back pain does not give a hx consistent with fx......"I slept in a new bed, I lifted a box, I was rearended at 2 miles an hr, my chiropractor says I need xrays, etc"
none of these are legitimate reasons to get a stat xray...unless you suspect an occult fx for some reason you need to be guided by the mechanism of injury....and if the mechanism is not consistent with fx then it is just a waste of 150 dollars + and some radiation exposure....an ls series xray is 100x the radiation exposure of a cxr....
if the pt is > 50 yrs old I am more likely to get a film to look for malignancy, etc
Great, now I see the thinking behind this. By the way, last week, an ER charged $900 for a cervical series and a lumbar series!
 
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611 said:
Great, now I see the thinking behind this. By the way, last week, an ER charged $900 for a cervical series and a lumbar series!

They could charge a million bucks, but it won't get them any more money from the insurance companies. Plain films aren't a money-maker...you're fortunate if you break even.
 
KentW said:
They could charge a million bucks, but it won't get them any more money from the insurance companies. Plain films aren't a money-maker...you're fortunate if you break even.
IT's the people with no insurance who can least afford these prices who get screwed.
 
611 said:
IT's the people with no insurance who can least afford these prices who get screwed.

Assuming they intend to pay their bill in the first place.
 
emedpa said:
xrays show fractures...typical er back pain does not give a hx consistent with fx......"I slept in a new bed, I lifted a box, I was rearended at 2 miles an hr, my chiropractor says I need xrays, etc"
none of these are legitimate reasons to get a stat xray...unless you suspect an occult fx for some reason you need to be guided by the mechanism of injury....and if the mechanism is not consistent with fx then it is just a waste of 150 dollars + and some radiation exposure....an ls series xray is 100x the radiation exposure of a cxr....
if the pt is > 50 yrs old I am more likely to get a film to look for malignancy, etc

Don't x-rays show some type of arthritis and osteophytes? What about Spondylolysis and Spondylolisthesis which are types of fractures? Don't get me wrong, i don't know much, i'm just inquring is all. Wouldn't pts present to the emerg with back pain that could be associated with these conditions? And if a DC wanted a hospital to tale x-rays, why is that not a good reason to have them done? Just curious is all....
Thanks
 
jesse14 said:
And if a DC wanted a hospital to tale x-rays, why is that not a good reason to have them done? Just curious is all....
Thanks

Umm, because "subluxations" (as chiropractic defines them) are not medically diagnosable. In the absence of a clinical indication by a provider actually trained in medical diagnosis, a medical institution should not perform any test. Just because my Great Aunt Sadie once knew a person who had an ectopic pregnancy doesn't mean that every patient (male or female 😀) with abdominal pain that comes through the door gets an ultrasound. And, to be honest, I trust Aunt Sadie's judgement far more than that of most chiropractors'.

- H
 
jesse14 said:
Don't x-rays show some type of arthritis and osteophytes? What about Spondylolysis and Spondylolisthesis which are types of fractures? Don't get me wrong, i don't know much, i'm just inquring is all. Wouldn't pts present to the emerg with back pain that could be associated with these conditions? And if a DC wanted a hospital to tale x-rays, why is that not a good reason to have them done? Just curious is all....
Thanks
the goal of emergency medicine is to rapidly identify urgent or emergent correctable problems...arthritis, etc is a dx best made in the clinic as it is a chronic condition. seeing djd on a ls xray doesn't change em management(pain medications) so why do it?
regarding chiropractors sending pts to the er...this is an inappropriate use of the EMERGENCY dept...if they really want the films they can order them through appropraiate channels on a routine, nonemergent basis. any care(xrays included) costs more in the er than the same service provided routinely on an outpt basis.
 
Opinioins are greatly valued but with "mickey mouse" language like that I cannot believe your students have any respect for you. We know Foughtfyr is not the greatest proponent of Chiropractic but I never heard language like that from him or anyone else here.
 
>>>"chiropractic referal to the er for films"<<<

This sounds highly improbable. Is the ER the only place in your hospital that takes films? Most hospitals aggressively solicit DC imaging referrals. I have one on my desk right now------offering CEs and lunch. I am planning on going to at least one of the four they are offering.
 
>>>"chiropractic referal to the er for films"<<<

This sounds highly improbable. Is the ER the only place in your hospital that takes films? Most hospitals aggressively solicit DC imaging referrals. I have one on my desk right now------offering CEs and lunch. I am planning on going to at least one of the four they are offering.

it is a regular occurence. chiropractor tells pt to get films today and bring them back to office, pt goes to er for said films. I see several a month(and deny the vast majority of them).
 
>>>chiropractor tells pt to get films today and bring them back to office<<<

That is not the same as "sending patients to the ER for films". Most likely they are looking for the radiology dept. You do show them where that is-NO?
The imaging facility(connected to a hospital) I send/refer my patients to, is "walk-in" for plain films. I send an order with them stating the views, and indications, they take them, and give copies to the patient to bring back to me. This is normal procedure.
 
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>>>chiropractor tells pt to get films today and bring them back to office<<<

That is not the same as "sending patients to the ER for films". Most likely they are looking for the radiology dept. You do show them where that is-NO?
The imaging facility(connected to a hospital) I send/refer my patients to, is "walk-in" for plain films. I send an order with them stating the views, and indications, they take them, and give copies to the patient to bring back to me. This is normal procedure.
I work at a busy trauma ctr. we do have outpt radiology services but they are generally not same day for non-emergent films of this nature. if someone showed up with an rx for a routine film they would be given an appt for later that week so they go to the er to (try to) get same day films. some chiros send folks directly to the er , some do not....what's even worse is when they send someone to the er for an rx for a same day mri for 10 yrs of back pain without any deficits or worrisome findings-I had 2 of those last week and denied both of them. sent the pts to the md pcp to eval and decide if outpt studies were appropriate.
 
Are you in a small town and yours is the only imaging facility? Never heard of waiting a week for plain films. The facility I refer to, does require appointments for MRI or CT or other advanced imaging, But can usually get my patients in within a day or two.

Why not just direct to patients to the radiology dept. and let them deal with it? They can call the DC and tell him of any delay or procedures involved. Seems like you are making a big deal out of something, that could be solved with-- eg. "take a left to the elevator, take it to the lower level, when the door opens you will see a sign for radiology and an arrow". Pretty simple really.
 
Are you in a small town and yours is the only imaging facility? Never heard of waiting a week for plain films. The facility I refer to, does require appointments for MRI or CT or other advanced imaging, But can usually get my patients in within a day or two.

Why not just direct to patients to the radiology dept. and let them deal with it? They can call the DC and tell him of any delay or procedures involved. Seems like you are making a big deal out of something, that could be solved with-- eg. "take a left to the elevator, take it to the lower level, when the door opens you will see a sign for radiology and an arrow". Pretty simple really.

Once they present at triage and say they have back pain they get triaged low acuity and wait 2-3 hrs to see me. that is when they then mention the chiropractic suggestion for films. they never have any paperwork from the chiros just " my chiro wanted me to get these today". at that point they are an er pt and are required to have an eval.
if the area chiros would just direct their pts to the correct place with a written request this wouldn't happen at all......pretty much the only time I get a written request is when they want a same day mri for chronic back pain.
 
By reading these posts I have to say that this is exactly why I bypass the hospital all together when it comes to films or labs. Not to mention the years of discrimination against DC's and scripts for labs or imaging. Our local hospitals saw the amount of revenue they were losing due to outside centers and began a heavy campaign to gain DC referrals. Oh they were all nice with their free lunches, CME and free rounds of golf when just a few years ago, they would embarrass our patients by turning them away for imaging orders or labs. They would even go as far as badmouthing us right to our own patients. Now when they come by wanting referrals they are kindly told to piss off. The local imaging centers are great, we get our patients right in, can talk to the radiologists and we are linked to their system to view images and reports online.
 
That's why I find it very hard to believe that "several a month" are sent to the ER by a DC. These people are most likely lost and looking for the radiology dept. And they do have written orders in hand, or what I often do.......fax the film order and it is waiting for the patient upon arrival. I know of no occasion a DC would send a patient to an ER with a "suggestion" they get "some films". When I(and every other DC) sends a patient for films, it is written or faxed, exactly what views I want.

Imaging centers and hospitals are falling all over themselves for our referrals. I certainly would not submit my patients to the treatment and attitude described above........no need to. I have dozens of centers/hospitals I can choose from and they are MORE than happy to see my patients. This scenario sounds just a bit........well let's just call it very "odd".
 
That's why I find it very hard to believe that "several a month" are sent to the ER by a DC. These people are most likely lost and looking for the radiology dept. And they do have written orders in hand, or what I often do.......fax the film order and it is waiting for the patient upon arrival. I know of no occasion a DC would send a patient to an ER with a "suggestion" they get "some films". When I(and every other DC) sends a patient for films, it is written or faxed, exactly what views I want.

Imaging centers and hospitals are falling all over themselves for our referrals. I certainly would not submit my patients to the treatment and attitude described above........no need to. I have dozens of centers/hospitals I can choose from and they are MORE than happy to see my patients. This scenario sounds just a bit........well let's just call it very "odd".

Really, happened twice to me yesterday. Hey, emedpa, let's run a little, purely anecdotal, experiment. Post on this thread every time it happens (and if they get the film or not - which for me is irrelevant because they will not get copies to take back to their DC unless it is daytime and they hike over to medical records and request and pay for a copy). But, to be fair, I will also note that a LARGE number of PCPs also send their patients to us in the ED for specific tests, which are also not performed because they are not emergently required. Those are also refused.

BTW - wayttk and others, there is a really good reason the freestanding imaging centers work with/for you and hospitals won't. It is called EMTALA. Any person who shows up anywhere on hospital property with any emergent complaint has the absolute right to an MSE (medical screening exam). Failure to provide one can result in fines of $50,000 to the hospital for each occurrence. This law applies even if the patient presents to the facility someplace other than the ED. One case even held that a visitor who mentioned their headache to a nurse in passing met the requirements of the law (that case was later thrown out for another reason). If a physician who has privileges at a facility arranges for a test (x-ray, lab, etc.) that facility counts on (and checks to ensure that) MSE documentation is performed. (Which brings us fully back around to the whole oversight issue, but that is another argument). In EMTALA, DCs don't count. Period. EMTALA does not apply to your offices, nor can your "exams" be sufficient to meet the requirements of the act. If any of your patients step onto hospital property (for a test or any other purpose) and complain about back pain, or demonstrate plainly visible signs of infirmity, they must be offered an examination. And you don't need to spend much time here to figure out what most ED physicians will tell them about their chiropractor. Now, EMTALA does not apply to a freestanding imaging center. Those folks are free to ***** themselves to DCs if they so desire. Ethically I would find significant problems with it, and I do wonder if they have protocols in place to initiate referrals if significant pathology were found. I just can't see a radiologist standing up in court saying "Yes your honor, the reformatted CT images clearly demonstrated that the fracture at C5 was consistent with a pathologic origin, but I felt the chiropractor ordering the test could handle it. I see that now that no further confirmatory tests were ordered nor accepted oncologic therapy begun (Gonstad wouldn't cut it here folks) but that is not really my fault".

- H
 
Agreed. Emergency rooms are for TRUE medical emergencies. Too many people use them for everyday problems that could be handled elsewhere.
 
I don't see where the radiologist would be obligated to take over patient care from an imaging center or hospital. Many times I have copies in hand before the radiologist has even read them, report typically follows the next day. The job of the radiologist is to report to the doctor what was found on the film and then informs the doctor of what should be done next (bone scan, MRI etc). Typically the radiologist will report to the referring doctor immediately if findings warrant it. He doesn't take control of the patient and send the patient immediately to the appropriate specialist. That's the job of the referring doctor.
 
I don't see where the radiologist would be obligated to take over patient care from an imaging center or hospital. Many times I have copies in hand before the radiologist has even read them, report typically follows the next day. The job of the radiologist is to report to the doctor what was found on the film and then informs the doctor of what should be done next (bone scan, MRI etc). Typically the radiologist will report to the referring doctor immediately if findings warrant it. He doesn't take control of the patient and send the patient immediately to the appropriate specialist. That's the job of the referring doctor.

Two parts to this. First, the hospital. Here is one legal opinion on EMTALA:
"In 2000, CMS issued new amendments to the rules under 42 CFR 489.24, expanding the responsibility of the emergency room to respond to any "presentation" on the hospital campus or at any provider-based off-campus facility of the hospital. In 2003, these rules were significantly revised.

The 250-yard rule comes from the definition of "Campus" found at 42 CFR 413.65:

"Campus means the physical area immediately adjacent to the provider's main buildings, other areas and structures that are not strictly contiguous to the main buildings but are located within 250 yards of the main buildings, and any other areas determined on an individual case basis, by the HCFA regional office, to be part of the provider's campus."

This definition comes into play in connection with the complicated regulations which define "provider-based" facilities.

The significance for EMTALA under the 2000 regulations was that provider-based status was considered to bring some (but not all) off-campus facilities within the sphere of the hospital's responsibility. For those facilities, a patient who presented to a facility requesting treatment, or who appeared and was perceived to be in need of treatment, had to be provided with the medical screening examination prescribed under EMTALA, and provided with stabilizing medical treatment if an emergency medical condition is found." {emphasis added}​

Now, I assume you will trust me that the MSE requires that the standards of care for a given condition be met? As no chiropractic care falls within the medical definition of "standard of care", a chiropractic patient, who presents on a hospital campus for a test (x-ray, MRI etc.) and who is "requesting treatment, or who appeared and was perceived to be in need of treatment", must be seen, evaluated and, if need be treated, by a physician. I have to believe, but can not cite case law, that requesting an x-ray would be construed as "requesting treatment". At the very least, if pathology is discovered there is absolutely a perception of being in need of treatment. And again, chiropractors fall outside this rule, while you are not held to it, your "evaluations" or "treatments" can not be used to meet the requirements of it. So that ends that.

As for the freestanding imaging center. Looking at a tort, several features must be met. First, the physician must have a duty toward the patient, this is a given if a radiologist is reading a patient's film. Second, there must be a breech of the standard of care. As the "standard of care" described refers to the radiologist, not the ordering physician or chiropractor, here is where the trouble would occur.
"Typically the radiologist will report to the referring doctor immediately if findings warrant it. He doesn't take control of the patient and send the patient immediately to the appropriate specialist. That's the job of the referring doctor."
You are correct, but they do contact the referring doctor immediately. If the radiologist discovers pathology, he or she is legally obligated to insure that proper follow-up is arranged. This is why so many radiologists are dragged into lawsuits throughout the hospital. They can not merely state that they a technologists without responsibility. It doesn't work that way. They are physicians for a reason. You better believe that when I take a phone report from a radiologist concern a patient with severe pathology, they are apprised of the treatment plan. In fact, they often suggest alterations to the plans based on their findings. Chiropractic simply doesn't meet the medical "standard of care". Back to tort, causation must be proved. In the event (for example) of a pathologic fracture at C5 who was later adjusted (don't laugh, saw it this week), I would think this easy to prove. All that must be shown is that for the failure to meet the standard of care this patient would not have been injured. In the C5 fracture (IRL) the initial films were done in a chiropractor's office, but if they were performed at a freestanding clinic and the radiologist referred the patient back to the chiro without arranging medical intervention, this would be simple to prove. Then damage to the patient must be shown. Again, easy to prove if an untoward event occurs. So where in this do you not see the problem? Find me any textbook or other citation that makes an argument for chiropractic treatment as the standard of care for significant pathology of any kind. If you can't (and we know you can't) then the radiologist is "on the hook" if he or she sends the patient back to their chiropractor for treatment once such pathology is uncovered.

- H
 
can only cite Florida law, which requires acceptance of a Chiropractic script as they would any other physician.
 
I guess if the radiologist finds a subluxation and fails to send the patient to a chiropractor, then he's up the creek. :laugh:
 
can only cite Florida law, which requires acceptance of a Chiropractic script as they would any other physician.

The question is not if they would do the test, but rather, what would the follow up be if serious pathology is discovered? As for the hospitals in Florida (and let's face it, when it comes to medicine Florida is about as screwed up as possible), I really wonder how they deal with EMTALA and chiropractic x-ray referrals. In the Midwest the Christoper Sercye / Ravenswood case (A 1998 incident in Chicago where, allegedly because of a hospital policy prohibiting personnel from leaving the grounds while on duty, emergency room personnel at Ravenswood Hospital failed to provide assistance to 15-year-old Christoper Sercye, who had been shot at a nearby school playground and whose friends had brought him to an alley just off hospital grounds. The boy died from his wounds.) hits too close to home. We "over-EMTALA" everything. I've seen patient's visitors get ED referrals for MSEs because they ask a nurse for a Tylenol for a headache (think about it, that is presenting on a hospital campus seeking treatment for a possibly emergent condition).

- H
 
I guess if the radiologist finds a subluxation and fails to send the patient to a chiropractor, then he's up the creek. :laugh:

Hey if he can find it he is doing better than most chiropractors!

Isn't there worse inter-rater agreement than chance when detecting subluxations?

Nice that we are both back in the saddle BackTalk. Now, when are you applying to medical school? 😛

- H
 
The radiologists I use typically will present the findings on the films and their impression. Then they will say "clinical correlation recommended". I can't really see a radiologist being held responsible if he/she informed the referring doctor of the significance of the findings and the referring doctor did nothing; whether the referring doctor is a MD/DO or DC. What if a dentist ordered an MRI of the head and a brain tumor was found; dentists do not treat brain tumors just like a chiropractor wouldn't. So you're telling me that the radiologist would bypass the DDS (like he/she would the chiropractor) and send the patient to the proper specialist? I see your point with the liability and all but think this rule outside the hospital is loosely followed. Actually now that I think about it, I had a patient I sent to hospital for a MRI (Only place that would take his insurance) and the guy had a spinal tumor. I never was bypassed, the report said what it was right there in black and white. I called his PCP and sent him on over with the findings. The standard of care for the DC is to consult with the radiologist, present the information to the patient and make the appropriate referral.

As far as medical school, sure I would love to go as long as you pick up the tab. 😀
 
I've seen patient's visitors get ED referrals for MSEs because they ask a nurse for a Tylenol for a headache (think about it, that is presenting on a hospital campus seeking treatment for a possibly emergent condition).

And the reason they get a referral is for a nurse to just give out Tylenol would be dispensing without a license and practicing medicine without a license. Evil JCAHO inspectors have actually tried this on unsuspecting staff ("Excuse me, nurse, I have a headache. Would you be able to give me some Tylenol/ibuprofen?")

I won't even take a BP on a visitor if asked. That establishes a "care relationship," and then I have a legal obligation to the visitor. Want your BP checked? Go to a pharmacy that has one of those automatic BP machines. If you want it checked because "it feels like it's high," then you need to trot over to your PMD or the ED. (Of course, I do say it a lot more nicely than that.)
 
And the reason they get a referral is for a nurse to just give out Tylenol would be dispensing without a license and practicing medicine without a license. Evil JCAHO inspectors have actually tried this on unsuspecting staff ("Excuse me, nurse, I have a headache. Would you be able to give me some Tylenol/ibuprofen?")

I won't even take a BP on a visitor if asked. That establishes a "care relationship," and then I have a legal obligation to the visitor. Want your BP checked? Go to a pharmacy that has one of those automatic BP machines. If you want it checked because "it feels like it's high," then you need to trot over to your PMD or the ED. (Of course, I do say it a lot more nicely than that.)

No doubt. And while it seems ridiculous it does serve to ensure patient safety.

- H
 
The radiologists I use typically will present the findings on the films and their impression. Then they will say "clinical correlation recommended". I can't really see a radiologist being held responsible if he/she informed the referring doctor of the significance of the findings and the referring doctor did nothing; whether the referring doctor is a MD/DO or DC. What if a dentist ordered an MRI of the head and a brain tumor was found; dentists do not treat brain tumors just like a chiropractor wouldn't. So you're telling me that the radiologist would bypass the DDS (like he/she would the chiropractor) and send the patient to the proper specialist? I see your point with the liability and all but think this rule outside the hospital is loosely followed. Actually now that I think about it, I had a patient I sent to hospital for a MRI (Only place that would take his insurance) and the guy had a spinal tumor. I never was bypassed, the report said what it was right there in black and white. I called his PCP and sent him on over with the findings. The standard of care for the DC is to consult with the radiologist, present the information to the patient and make the appropriate referral.

As far as medical school, sure I would love to go as long as you pick up the tab. 😀

While your chiropractic standard of care is to "consult with the radiologist, present the information to the patient and make the appropriate referral", it is not for every DC, nor is there any mechanism in place to provide that any standard (even if one were to exist) is met. So, we are back where we started. I am on a work group with a radiologist. I'll ask him tomorrow about the liability of providing a "pathology found" report to a non-medical provider.

- H
 
While your chiropractic standard of care is to "consult with the radiologist, present the information to the patient and make the appropriate referral", it is not for every DC, nor is there any mechanism in place to provide that any standard (even if one were to exist) is met. So, we are back where we started. I am on a work group with a radiologist. I'll ask him tomorrow about the liability of providing a "pathology found" report to a non-medical provider.

- H

I usually have a lot of criticisms about chiropractic but this is absolutely ridiculous. It IS the standard of care in chiropractic to make the appropriate referral. Check your state chiropractic board. Chiropractors who do not uphold the standard of care should be and are disciplined by the judicial system and the state board (just as in medicine). And by the way, chiropractors order imaging for the same reasons as medical physicians... to rule out pathology. Those who x-ray for chiropractic subluxations probably already have their own in-office x-ray machines.
 
I usually have a lot of criticisms about chiropractic but this is absolutely ridiculous. It IS the standard of care in chiropractic to make the appropriate referral. Check your state chiropractic board. Chiropractors who do not uphold the standard of care should be and are disciplined by the judicial system and the state board (just as in medicine). And by the way, chiropractors order imaging for the same reasons as medical physicians... to rule out pathology. Those who x-ray for chiropractic subluxations probably already have their own in-office x-ray machines.

Right, but what about a "straight" who believes they can treat CHF, asthma, or even cancer. what is the liability to a physician (radiologist) who knows these conditions exist, but fails to properly refer them except back to the ordering DC. Are you suggesting that all DCs would refer to an MD for any medical condition? If not, where is the line? What gets referred and what doesn't. I mean, if I grant that all serious metastatic bone CA would be referred, what about all COPD? And so forth.

AWDC, you know better than to hold out the state medical board and state chiropractic board as quality assurance bodies. Neither is. They are regulatory oversight. If an MD/DO makes an error, it will likely first be caught by a nurse. If not, then by the quality control folks at the hospital. JCAHO has found a couple, as have case manager, both for hospitals and insurance companies. Professional societies also address issues, albeit at a higher level. And all of that leaves aside the old fashioned, self reported M&M. Then, and only then, might a state board become involved. Where are all of those steps in chiropractic?

Sorry but in the last three years, I have seen a renal cell CA not caught by a chiro and treated for six months, a cauda equina syndrome presenting as urinary incontinence during and adjustment that was "sent home to recover from a difficult adjustment", and most recently, a pathologic flexion teardrop fracture at C5 either caused by or not picked up by a chiro (patient had two weeks of neck pain, saw their chiropractor qOD for the same, who reportedly did take x-rays, self-reports to the ED after the last adjustment because "chiropractic doesn't seem to be working", has a lateral c-spine film that I will now use in lectures - huge anterior teardrop at C5, CT later proves pathologic). I am one EM resident at one center (albeit, a center so tertiary we jokingly refer to it as a "quaternary care center" - but all of these patients were local except the last and he was only 80 miles away). But you want me to believe that all chiropractors will send out their truly ill patients? It simply doesn't happen. So my question is - since the chiropractor did take neck x-rays in the C5 case - what if those films were over-read by an MD/DO Radiologist? What is that physician's liability for leaving the patient in the care of the chiropractor? (And in the C5 case, something WAS missed. Either a large lytic lesion was missed, the patient then adjusted causing the lesion, or {shudder} the fracture was there and the patient adjusted anyway...) This stuff happens awdc. One of our own, wayttk, who claims to be a DC, has stated "I also, regularly advise my patients on pharmcological treatment" and he "can treat any condition, inside or outside of his scope of practice {paraphrased}". Come on, don't get pulled back over the fence.

- H
 
I can't image a DC missing a fracture like that. The guy must have been a complete idiot. I agree this happens, and you H see an awful lot of it as these patients typically end up in your ER. First for the most part you won't see chiropractors treating disorders like COPD or heart problems or any other problems that fall outside of the NMS realm.

Even with patients coming in misdiagnosed by the chiropractor, I am sure you see your share of MD's DO's missing all sorts of things that end up on the ER.
 
I can't image a DC missing a fracture like that. The guy must have been a complete idiot. I agree this happens, and you H see an awful lot of it as these patients typically end up in your ER. First for the most part you won't see chiropractors treating disorders like COPD or heart problems or any other problems that fall outside of the NMS realm.

Even with patients coming in misdiagnosed by the chiropractor, I am sure you see your share of MD's DO's missing all sorts of things that end up on the ER.

Are we really going back here? Can't we agree to just post a link to our previous discussions. Yes, MD/DOs miss too, but there are multiple layers of QI/QA to insure that it is remediated and doesn't happen often. And, they do at least have the training to find most things.

As for this fracture, my suspicion is that the chiropractor missed a lytic lesion, not the fracture, as this was a truly impressive film. I actually think (but certainly can't prove, nor would I EVER suggest to the patient) that a weakened bone was aggressively adjusted and fractured.

And once again, I agree that most chiropractors won't treat medical diseases, but some will. How can the public tell which is which?

BT - a question - is there any condition or any patient you treat with spinal adjustments in your practice?

- H
 
And the reason they get a referral is for a nurse to just give out Tylenol would be dispensing without a license and practicing medicine without a license. Evil JCAHO inspectors have actually tried this on unsuspecting staff ("Excuse me, nurse, I have a headache. Would you be able to give me some Tylenol/ibuprofen?")

I won't even take a BP on a visitor if asked. That establishes a "care relationship," and then I have a legal obligation to the visitor. Want your BP checked? Go to a pharmacy that has one of those automatic BP machines. If you want it checked because "it feels like it's high," then you need to trot over to your PMD or the ED. (Of course, I do say it a lot more nicely than that.)

great point - I have had this happen many times in the ER and I offer to have them seen after they register....
 
Really, happened twice to me yesterday. Hey, emedpa, let's run a little, purely anecdotal, experiment. Post on this thread every time it happens (and if they get the film or not - which for me is irrelevant because they will not get copies to take back to their DC unless it is daytime and they hike over to medical records and request and pay for a copy). But, to be fair, I will also note that a LARGE number of PCPs also send their patients to us in the ED for specific tests, which are also not performed because they are not emergently required. Those are also refused.

BTW - wayttk and others, there is a really good reason the freestanding imaging centers work with/for you and hospitals won't. It is called EMTALA. Any person who shows up anywhere on hospital property with any emergent complaint has the absolute right to an MSE (medical screening exam). Failure to provide one can result in fines of $50,000 to the hospital for each occurrence. This law applies even if the patient presents to the facility someplace other than the ED. One case even held that a visitor who mentioned their headache to a nurse in passing met the requirements of the law (that case was later thrown out for another reason). If a physician who has privileges at a facility arranges for a test (x-ray, lab, etc.) that facility counts on (and checks to ensure that) MSE documentation is performed. (Which brings us fully back around to the whole oversight issue, but that is another argument). In EMTALA, DCs don't count. Period. EMTALA does not apply to your offices, nor can your "exams" be sufficient to meet the requirements of the act. If any of your patients step onto hospital property (for a test or any other purpose) and complain about back pain, or demonstrate plainly visible signs of infirmity, they must be offered an examination. And you don't need to spend much time here to figure out what most ED physicians will tell them about their chiropractor. Now, EMTALA does not apply to a freestanding imaging center. Those folks are free to ***** themselves to DCs if they so desire. Ethically I would find significant problems with it, and I do wonder if they have protocols in place to initiate referrals if significant pathology were found. I just can't see a radiologist standing up in court saying "Yes your honor, the reformatted CT images clearly demonstrated that the fracture at C5 was consistent with a pathologic origin, but I felt the chiropractor ordering the test could handle it. I see that now that no further confirmatory tests were ordered nor accepted oncologic therapy begun (Gonstad wouldn't cut it here folks) but that is not really my fault".

- H

ok- pt seen last week post mva by ed md. evaluated with nl c/t/ls plain films. overread by rads as "nl". pt given meds and refered to local reputable p.t. group for f/u tx of c/t/ls strains.
pt returns today wanting copies of films to "show the dr at therapy" because "the hospital drs often miss things on xrays". I asked who he was seeing. dr smith, the therapist. I know the local p.t. group well and know they have no dr smith so I asked which group she was using." one recommended by a friend". ok....do you have the guys card?
yup...
dr smith
chiropractic physician
family practice and musculoskeletal rehab specialist

me: uh, this guy is a chiropractor
pt: he is? I thought he was a physical therapist. he told me they were doing p.t. on me and it doesn't seem to be helping
me: uh, no he's a chiropractor. you can have the films if you want but I need to tell you that they will cost 150 dollars and have been read by a professional radiologist who reads xrays for a living as completely nl
pt: I'm not going back there. I'm going to see the real physical therapist and I don't need the xrays, thanks.

another case of chiropractic fleecing the stupid and gullible.....
it's too bad that the 95% of shyster chiropractors make the 5% of good ones look bad......
 
ok- pt seen last week post mva by ed md. evaluated with nl c/t/ls plain films. overread by rads as "nl". pt given meds and refered to local reputable p.t. group for f/u tx of c/t/ls strains.
pt returns today wanting copies of films to "show the dr at therapy" because "the hospital drs often miss things on xrays". I asked who he was seeing. dr smith, the therapist. I know the local p.t. group well and know they have no dr smith so I asked which group she was using." one recommended by a friend". ok....do you have the guys card?
yup...
dr smith
chiropractic physician
family practice and musculoskeletal rehab specialist

me: uh, this guy is a chiropractor
pt: he is? I thought he was a physical therapist. he told me they were doing p.t. on me and it doesn't seem to be helping
me: uh, no he's a chiropractor. you can have the films if you want but I need to tell you that they will cost 150 dollars and have been read by a professional radiologist who reads xrays for a living as completely nl
pt: I'm not going back there. I'm going to see the real physical therapist and I don't need the xrays, thanks.

another case of chiropractic fleecing the stupid and gullible.....
it's too bad that the 95% of shyster chiropractors make the 5% of good ones look bad......

Why would the copies of the films cost $150? I get copies of the films all the time from the local hospital and the copies are FREE! Why would you tell the patient it costs $150? I'm not against a patient receiving PT for sprain strain injuries if that's what YOU want to do. I can tell you this, I see patients involved in MVA's way too often after they endured months of PT with not much improvement and a bill 3-4 times what chiropractic care would have cost. What were your orders regarding PT? Did you tell them to "evaluate and treat" like many times is the case? That will get you weeks of ultra sound and the PT saying "here is a sheet of exercises, go over here and do them" while he chit chats with the nurses and drinks his coffee. The doctor should have never told the patient that the "the hospital drs often miss things on xrays". That's very unprofessional. Possibly, he wanted to check the films for degenerative arthritis and or biomechanical alterations that many times go unmentioned by hospital radiologists. Their main concern is fracture and less important things (to them) go unmentioned.

95% of chiropractors being shysters is a bold statement, care to cite your reference? I guess I could say 95% of ER physicians have no idea as to how to deal with soft tissue injuries other than prescribe pain pills, a muscle relaxer and refer to a physical therapist.
 
"Why would you tell the patient it costs $150? "

50 dollars per film series is the price our hospital charges if a pt wants a copy of their own films...50x3=$150.....the hospital will loan films to physician specialists( ortho, etc) but not alternative medicine providers....

"I guess I could say 95% of ER physicians have no idea as to how to deal with soft tissue injuries other than prescribe pain pills, a muscle relaxer and refer to a physical therapist."
YES, IT'S CALLED THE STANDARD OF MEDICAL CARE.

"95% of chiropractors being shysters is a bold statement"
ok, 85%?.......I know ONE chiropractor I trust in my town that I would refer to if someone asked for a chiro referal......and she is a friend....and I know that she only does adjustments, NOT family practice, NOT aura centering, and NOT fly by night weight loss schemes.....she works 3 days a week for another chiropractic group and works at starbucks 20 hrs/week for added income and to get health care benefits....
 
Why would the copies of the films cost $150? I get copies of the films all the time from the local hospital and the copies are FREE! Why would you tell the patient it costs $150? I’m not against a patient receiving PT for sprain strain injuries if that’s what YOU want to do. I can tell you this, I see patients involved in MVA’s way too often after they endured months of PT with not much improvement and a bill 3-4 times what chiropractic care would have cost. What were your orders regarding PT? Did you tell them to “evaluate and treat” like many times is the case? That will get you weeks of ultra sound and the PT saying “here is a sheet of exercises, go over here and do them” while he chit chats with the nurses and drinks his coffee. The doctor should have never told the patient that the "the hospital drs often miss things on xrays". That’s very unprofessional. Possibly, he wanted to check the films for degenerative arthritis and or biomechanical alterations that many times go unmentioned by hospital radiologists. Their main concern is fracture and less important things (to them) go unmentioned.

95% of chiropractors being shysters is a bold statement, care to cite your reference? I guess I could say 95% of ER physicians have no idea as to how to deal with soft tissue injuries other than prescribe pain pills, a muscle relaxer and refer to a physical therapist.

BT - a question - is there any condition or any patient you treat with spinal adjustments in your practice? (I do have a point to the question).

- H
 
Right, but what about a "straight" who believes they can treat CHF, asthma, or even cancer. what is the liability to a physician (radiologist) who knows these conditions exist, but fails to properly refer them except back to the ordering DC. Are you suggesting that all DCs would refer to an MD for any medical condition? If not, where is the line? What gets referred and what doesn't. I mean, if I grant that all serious metastatic bone CA would be referred, what about all COPD? And so forth.

AWDC, you know better than to hold out the state medical board and state chiropractic board as quality assurance bodies. Neither is. They are regulatory oversight. If an MD/DO makes an error, it will likely first be caught by a nurse. If not, then by the quality control folks at the hospital. JCAHO has found a couple, as have case manager, both for hospitals and insurance companies. Professional societies also address issues, albeit at a higher level. And all of that leaves aside the old fashioned, self reported M&M. Then, and only then, might a state board become involved. Where are all of those steps in chiropractic?

Sorry but in the last three years, I have seen a renal cell CA not caught by a chiro and treated for six months, a cauda equina syndrome presenting as urinary incontinence during and adjustment that was "sent home to recover from a difficult adjustment", and most recently, a pathologic flexion teardrop fracture at C5 either caused by or not picked up by a chiro (patient had two weeks of neck pain, saw their chiropractor qOD for the same, who reportedly did take x-rays, self-reports to the ED after the last adjustment because "chiropractic doesn't seem to be working", has a lateral c-spine film that I will now use in lectures - huge anterior teardrop at C5, CT later proves pathologic). I am one EM resident at one center (albeit, a center so tertiary we jokingly refer to it as a "quaternary care center" - but all of these patients were local except the last and he was only 80 miles away). But you want me to believe that all chiropractors will send out their truly ill patients? It simply doesn't happen. So my question is - since the chiropractor did take neck x-rays in the C5 case - what if those films were over-read by an MD/DO Radiologist? What is that physician's liability for leaving the patient in the care of the chiropractor? (And in the C5 case, something WAS missed. Either a large lytic lesion was missed, the patient then adjusted causing the lesion, or {shudder} the fracture was there and the patient adjusted anyway...) This stuff happens awdc. One of our own, wayttk, who claims to be a DC, has stated "I also, regularly advise my patients on pharmcological treatment" and he "can treat any condition, inside or outside of his scope of practice {paraphrased}". Come on, don't get pulled back over the fence.

- H

You make some good points and I may be biased to the way I was trained in chiropractic. There really is no way to ensure all DC's are making the appropriate referrals. My training always stressed that if we were to use chiropractic for medical conditions like asthma, it must always be an adjunct to standard medical care (never a replacement). I'm not a proponent of the unproven alternative side of chiropractic but I'm just saying that even the straights at my school were taught this. If anything, that it would protect them from a legal standpoint.

I am still maintaining that the QA system for chiropractors and outpatient primary care physicians are similar (especially if PCP does not have hospital privileges). And yes, there are insurance case managers and peer reviewers in the chiropractic world. The same goes for other providers who primarily engage in outpatient care such as dentists and optometrists.

I'm not denying that the bad stuff you mentioned happens but your examples of chiropractors failing to diagnose is not the same as failing to refer. It's more likely the chiropractor failed to make the radiographic finding since I bet he took the x-ray himself and never bothered to send the film out for interpretation by a radiologist. Which is all the more reason for radiologists to accept an imaging order from a chiropractor. If you have examples of chiropractors failing to refer after reading a report with significant findings from a radiologist then I concede.

There is no difference between the way a radiologist should handle a finding of malignancy (as an example) when the referring doctor is a MD or DC. In each case, the radiologist follows up with the clinician (MD or DC) to ensure that the appropriate management is initiated. If not, the radiologist must inform the patient.
 
>>>"pt returns today wanting copies of films to "show the dr at therapy" because "the hospital drs often miss things on xrays"."<<<

Something is very ODD- that a patient would present to the ER to get copies of medical records----------???????
 
I know ONE chiropractor I trust in my town that I would refer to if someone asked for a chiro referal...she works 3 days a week for another chiropractic group and works at starbucks 20 hrs/week

Ouch. If I worked at my local Starbucks, I'd be waiting on a lot of my patients. How'd you like to see your doctor fixing your Venti Latte? I'd certainly have some 'splaining to do... :laugh:
 
>>>"pt returns today wanting copies of films to "show the dr at therapy" because "the hospital drs often miss things on xrays"."<<<

Something is very ODD- that a patient would present to the ER to get copies of medical records----------???????

some pts aren't that bright..."xray taken at er, gotta go there to get a copy then go to my "therapist" so they can "appropriately interpret them".....
 
Something is very ODD- that a patient would present to the ER to get copies of medical records----------???????

Not nearly as odd as the chiropractor thinking he has a CLUE about what presents at a modern ED...

Yes, we get folks wanting medical records, we get folks wanting immunizations for the children at 3 am, we get people wanting notes off from work because "I like totally had to help out my friend who was really bumming...", and let's not forget about those folks who listened to the local news and are now convinced they have the "bird flu", "west nile virus", or "spinal meningitis". Wayttk, as your medical knowledge is obviously limited to the brainwashing you received at whatever Palmer indoctrination boot camp you attending mixed with a smattering of NBC television thrown in for good measure, please stop trying to dissect what you think is an "odd" presentation to the emergency department. If you had a clue you would realize the only "odd" patient in the ED is the one who comes in with a classic case of a truly emergent condition and no confounding history or physical exam findings. That patient I've only seen on television.

- H
 
Must have hit a nerve-----------ODD
 
Back to the original question...
Why has no one mentioned the use of the Canadian C-spine rules or the Nexus protocol as reasons for not performing radiographs on patients? Canadian C-spine rules have excellent sensitivity and have demonstrated greater accuracy than expert clinicians - I would think this would CYA but I'm no ER doc. I would also think the other Canadian based rules would provide both excellent patient care, decreased cost and CYA. Are these widely accepted in the US?

It is also interesting to note that patients with acute mechanical low back pain that are randomized to have an x-ray done have greater and longer lasting disability according to one study although they are more satisfied with their care. Same thing with MRI's in another study.

ptguy
 
Back to the original question...
Why has no one mentioned the use of the Canadian C-spine rules or the Nexus protocol as reasons for not performing radiographs on patients? Canadian C-spine rules have excellent sensitivity and have demonstrated greater accuracy than expert clinicians - I would think this would CYA but I'm

It is also interesting to note that patients with acute mechanical low back pain that are randomized to have an x-ray done have greater and longer lasting disability according to one study although they are more satisfied with their care. Same thing with MRI's in another study.

ptguy

agree- I am a big fan of the canadian rules for c-spine, knees, ankles, and head ct. the pt in question would not haver gotten any xrays had they seen me instead of one of my md colleagues who xrays everyone with a pain anywhere as a cya. I rarely order xrays on my mva pts unless it is a really significant mva( arrive in full c-spine with 2 iv's via ems, etc), or as guided by an impressive mechanism of injury(mack truck vs vw beetle for example) or worrisome hx or exam findings....
 
Back to the original question...
Why has no one mentioned the use of the Canadian C-spine rules or the Nexus protocol as reasons for not performing radiographs on patients? Canadian C-spine rules have excellent sensitivity and have demonstrated greater accuracy than expert clinicians - I would think this would CYA but I'm no ER doc. I would also think the other Canadian based rules would provide both excellent patient care, decreased cost and CYA. Are these widely accepted in the US?

It is also interesting to note that patients with acute mechanical low back pain that are randomized to have an x-ray done have greater and longer lasting disability according to one study although they are more satisfied with their care. Same thing with MRI's in another study.

ptguy

I guess I took the OP as films for LBP. For traumatic neck pain, I use Nexus. The big debate around here with c-spine is "to CT or not to CT". We have a dedicated 64-slice scanner so the reformats are quick, and likely more accurate than plain film. But the cost is greater. So, right now we mainly struggle with "well, I'm going to scan the head, do I extend down or get plain film..." I, usually, in the adult patient will scan the c-spine if I am scanning anything else or if habitus +/- c-spine precautions might preclude a good film. The only exception is the elderly where I scan first because DJD makes the plain films almost unreadable (in terms of defining chronic versus acute).

- H
 
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