Bad parents or bad physicians?

This forum made possible through the generous support of SDN members, donors, and sponsors. Thank you.

mohad

Full Member
10+ Year Member
Joined
Feb 17, 2011
Messages
592
Reaction score
3
Now this isn't a thread about the sexuality of the parents which could have impacted the child's decision. I'm just wondering whether you guys think that the parents making such an important decision for their child so early in his life is morally right. And what do you think about the physicians that decided to do this? I just don't like the way they decided to do this. no one knows what they want at the age of 8. Children that old don't even know what they want for dinner. How do they know what gender they want to be for the rest of their life?

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...11-undergoing-hormone-blocking-treatment.html

And disregard the title. I couldnt' think of anything else.

Members don't see this ad.
 
Last edited:
I remember reading about so many cases like this during Intro Psychology. Based on what I know (which isn't way too much) in general, cases like this, where a boy wants to be a girl (or vice versa), are found at a VERY early age, often around 4-5. It's not that surprising to do the whole hormone blocking thing at 11, but personally, I would wait until 13-14.
 
I think that is too young to do that..they should have waited a couple more years in my opinion. Then again, I am not afflicted with gender dysphoria nor know much about it. so I can't really make a strong argument.
 
Members don't see this ad :)
I'm not familiar with it, nor do I konw much about it, but what if the child grows up and feels like it was a mistake? Quite a few female friends of mine that I grew up with used to be tomboys. They threw mud at each other, got dirty, had bowl cuts, etc. They turned out to be very ladylike when they grew out of that phase. I just think this is a really touchy topic and I wanted to hear other people's input.
 
The mothers say that one of the first things Thomas told them when he learned sign language aged three - because of a speech impediment - was, 'I am a girl'.
At age seven, after threatening genital mutilation on himself, psychiatrists diagnosed Thomas with gender identity disorder. By the age of eight, he began transitioning.


It's not the parents' fault. Granted, kids make stupid, irrational decisions, and parents should be there to stop them... but nobody has 20/20 foresight into what the correct decision would be, and which decisions are stupid and irrational. We can only think about cost-benefits and reversibility of decisions.

Personally, I am gay, and I would NOT impose any medical/surgical interventions on my children, even if they begged for it, before they turn 18.

Note: As a gay person, I do NOT have any insight whatsoever into transgenders. One should not assume that these "lesbian" parents are using their "sexuality" to influence anything. They are simply more... open-minded. And reckless.
 
Children that old don't even know what they want for dinner. How do they know what gender they want to be for the rest of their life?
Precisely. And, it is the role of a parent to recognize this fact and prevent their child from making such an ill-conceived decision. The child cannot legally make this decision, therefore it is the parents who are responsible.
/endthread
 
He clearly wants to be a girl. Why risk depression (or worse)?
 
The hormones she is taking are not actually making her transition physically. They are basically holding off puberty so she has some time to decide to either fully transition or to change her mind (which I doubt she will) and develop as a male.

I think there is a big difference between being a tomboy (or tomgirl?), as a previous poster said, and actually feeling / knowing that you are a different gender. I was a total tomboy and I am still not a girly girl but I don't feel like I am in the wrong body. It's a totally different thing, and I don't think it's really something that a I or any other cis-gendered person can totally understand or judge.

As a parent you never know for sure if you are making the right choice but I think it would be much better for the kid to look back and say "I am the wrong gender now because my parents gave me the freedom to try to figure it out" than "I am the wrong gender now because my parents made me feel horrible for being myself." I support them in their choice to support their child.
 
He clearly wants to be a girl. Why risk depression (or worse)?
Because he's a CHILD. There's a reason that you can't make your own decisions legally at that age, and it's because you don't know what you're doing. You can argue that a 17-year old knows, but I am quite sure that an 11-year old does not.

If he wants to get married next year, can he do that? Why not?

I say "bad parents and even worse physicians."
 
The hormones she is taking are not actually making her transition physically. They are basically holding off puberty so she has some time to decide to either fully transition or to change her mind (which I doubt she will) and develop as a male.

I think there is a big difference between being a tomboy (or tomgirl?), as a previous poster said, and actually feeling / knowing that you are a different gender. I was a total tomboy and I am still not a girly girl but I don't feel like I am in the wrong body. It's a totally different thing, and I don't think it's really something that a I or any other cis-gendered person can totally understand or judge.

As a parent you never know for sure if you are making the right choice but I think it would be much better for the kid to look back and say "I am the wrong gender now because my parents gave me the freedom to try to figure it out" than "I am the wrong gender now because my parents made me feel horrible for being myself." I support them in their choice to support their child.

I am pretty much on the same page as you in regards to this very controversial subject. I would be opposed to any sort of surgery for a minor, but I think the hormone-suppressant they are using seems appropriate because it will allow the child to develop as a man if he chooses to stop taking them.
 
The hormones she is taking are not actually making her transition physically. They are basically holding off puberty so she has some time to decide to either fully transition or to change her mind (which I doubt she will) and develop as a male.

I think there is a big difference between being a tomboy (or tomgirl?), as a previous poster said, and actually feeling / knowing that you are a different gender. I was a total tomboy and I am still not a girly girl but I don't feel like I am in the wrong body. It's a totally different thing, and I don't think it's really something that a I or any other cis-gendered person can totally understand or judge.

As a parent you never know for sure if you are making the right choice but I think it would be much better for the kid to look back and say "I am the wrong gender now because my parents gave me the freedom to try to figure it out" than "I am the wrong gender now because my parents made me feel horrible for being myself." I support them in their choice to support their child.

I think it would be better for the kid to look back and say "I was miserable for those 5 extra years as a boy but now know for certain I am who I want to be" than "Oh, s***! Where did my testicles go?"
 
The hormones she is taking are not actually making her transition physically. They are basically holding off puberty so she has some time to decide to either fully transition or to change her mind (which I doubt she will) and develop as a male.

This. Basically, they are avoiding making an irreversible medical decision until the child is older. Because once you start that ball rolling, it's a lot harder to make it stop.

If puberty weren't something that "just happened" when left to itself, it certainly wouldn't be legal for under-18s to opt into. Compared to tattoos and piercings, it's a MAJOR body mod. I would not force it on an unwilling child, any more than I would force plastic surgery or alternative body modifications on an unwilling child.

I know a number of transgender adults. EVERY MTF I know says they knew when they were very young (<5 years old), but didn't know it was possible to transition.

Many who transitioned later in life have trouble getting employed as the result of their physical appearance/voice from having to undergo puberty twice. It's like having facial prison tattoos.

If you wouldn't want your eleven-year-old kid to have facial prison tattoos, why would you want her to have some other physical modification that might prevent her from getting a good job for the rest of her life? This is not making an early irreversible choice, it's PREVENTING an early irreversible choice.

To add to that, boys usually don't *normally* go through puberty until 12-13, and don't usually go through the major changes (voice etc) until later. So this is just keeping the kid on schedule, regardless of which way their gender identity goes. In some cases this is done for kids who are hitting puberty early who aren't even trans, just too early in life to become physically sexualized. To TheProwler, I say "bad science." You should know this stuff already. But... oh.
 
Members don't see this ad :)
I don't see the problem here, personally. The article makes it quite clear that he's determined to be the opposite sex - whether you agree with him being old enough to know or not is up to you. He's threatening to mutilate himself to do so - that's a pretty serious indication about the severity of the matter. Comparing his situation to a girl being a tomboy is about as intelligent as comparing it to.. something so ridiculous that I can't even draw a correlation.

Normally I would wait until the child was older, but the article makes a solid point - if they wait, they're only going to further damage him once his hormones kick in. Somehow I don't foresee him just changing his mind over this one day - seems pretty set in stone to me.
 
I know a number of transgender adults. EVERY MTF I know says they knew when they were very young (<5 years old), but didn't know it was possible to transition.

But on the flip side, how many children do you think "knew" they wanted to swap genders but ended up as perfectly happy, non-transitioned adults? Maybe it's not many, but if there's anything I learned from the Anthropology of Sexuality class I took, it's that sexuality is a far more dynamic and confused thing than most people will let on given the prevailing societal stigma, and instances of sexual re-identification may be surprisingly common.

It's not my intent to refute your post in its entirety, as you raised some valid points; I just think your anecdote is kind of misleading.
 
But on the flip side, how many children do you think "knew" they wanted to swap genders but ended up as perfectly happy, non-transitioned adults? Maybe it's not many, but if there's anything I learned from the Anthropology of Sexuality class I took, it's that sexuality is a far more dynamic and confused thing than most people will let on given the prevailing societal stigma, and instances of sexual re-identification may be surprisingly common.

It's not my intent to refute your post in its entirety, as you raised some valid points; I just think your anecdote is kind of misleading.

I actually know more than one person who has a mixed gender identification, or went through stages of identifying with a different gender than the one they've chosen as an adult, or some such.

There are a couple of features of the narrative which don't match this kind of thing: the child in the story attempted or threatened self-harm as a child in an attempt to transition, and showed a consistent and solid self-identification that didn't match their body. I don't know and haven't heard of anyone who has a narrative of this nature who did not later choose to transition. (Not counting those who committed suicide before transition was available to them.)

I'm aware that the plural of anecdote is not evidence. The evidence, though, is out there for anyone willing to do a few Internet searches.

When I see threads like this I'm always torn between doing those searches myself and laying out information explicitly for people, and assuming that the people in this forum can do their own research review.

I guess it's not an insult on anyone's intelligence if I assume that everyone is too busy to have bothered. But I think the million-dollar question on SDN is: why do people spend the time to respond to threads on topics they're too busy to learn about first?

(And this, likewise, isn't a slight on your response, which is a perfectly good and reasoned response, but rather a complaint about the general tenor of discussions here.)

Anyway: Here's an article written by a physician on the treatment the person in the article is experiencing and the reasons why it is a potentially life-saving treatment. The article also discusses ruling out other forms of gender non-conformity before proceeding.

This should help answer people's questions about what exactly is going on and help de-confuse those who are rusty on endocrine systems, and it's a more authoritative article than a flip "human interest" news piece. Enjoy!
 
Well-played ad hominem. Your superior relevance is now more obvious.

Okay, it was a bit of a stinker and I'm sorry I fell to the dark side of my nature for a minute there.

Everyone develops their own specialized knowledge... there's no shame in losing touch with what is outside your purview. But I believe we all have the responsibility of admitting we don't know what we don't know, rather than walking in and making snap judgments from ignorance.

Likewise we all fail in knowing when to make that admission sometimes, myself included. Normally I try to call people out politely and hope the same from them. My knowledge about the amount of human misery caused by this particular disconnect in the medical community's understanding made me somewhat angrier than usual, but I know better than to think snarking actually solves human rights issues.

Anyway, I should clarify. I think remembering textbook physiology of development makes it easier to understand what is going on in the clinical case discussed here, and not remembering textbook biology will put anyone's understanding of it at a disadvantage. I would go to an endocrinologist for endocrinology advice, and I would go to a transgender specialist for advice on transgender conditions.

But if I collapsed and needed emergency surgery right this minute, I would sure as f**k rather collapse in front of TheProwler than in front of an endocrinologist. Respect where respect is due.
 
Because he's a CHILD. There's a reason that you can't make your own decisions legally at that age, and it's because you don't know what you're doing. You can argue that a 17-year old knows, but I am quite sure that an 11-year old does not.

If he wants to get married next year, can he do that? Why not?

I say "bad parents and even worse physicians."
You don't think an eleven year old knows if s/he is a boy or a girl? I would gander most children "know" what gender they're supposed to be.

And the marriage argument is ridiculous. Most eleven year olds aren't and don't get married, but most eleven year olds are in the right body.
 
I think it would be better for the kid to look back and say "I was miserable for those 5 extra years as a boy but now know for certain I am who I want to be" than "Oh, s***! Where did my testicles go?"

The thing is, it is a lot harder to transition after puberty. That is why they are holding off puberty so that she can choose for sure in a few years. The hormones she is taking now are not causing any kind of irreversible change.
 
To TheProwler, I say "bad science." You should know this stuff already. But... oh.
Forgetting the intermediate steps of glycolysis is just like the moral and medical implications of allowing a child to undergo sex-modifying medical therapy.

You don't think an eleven year old knows if s/he is a boy or a girl? I would gander most children "know" what gender they're supposed to be.
Based on what? What gender are they supposed to be? Are you supposed to be any gender at all?

And the marriage argument is ridiculous. Most eleven year olds aren't and don't get married, but most eleven year olds are in the right body.
11-year olds aren't allowed to get married, so none of them are. I hope you realized that's why most of them aren't.

The thing is, it is a lot harder to transition after puberty. That is why they are holding off puberty so that she can choose for sure in a few years. The hormones she is taking now are not causing any kind of irreversible change.
Yes, they are. They're delaying sexual maturation until later in life, which is an irreversible change. It's most definitely an experimental maneuver, as the long-term ramifications of this kind of tinkering are not well-investigated. This would never make it past an IRB, and I don't think it should be allowed here.

What if my child really wants to be an athlete and identifies himself as such? Can I give him drugs to make him taller or more muscular? What makes it okay to give a child drugs that alter his or her body for any other reason than to remedy a measurable disease/deformity/whathaveyou? Remember, this started at age 8, not even at 11.
 
I predict "eugenics" within the next 10 posts.
 
Parents' and physicians' fault. That **** is ****ed up. More power to the kid if they want to be straight/gay/transgender when they are old enough to see beyond saturday morning cartoons, but messing with that stuff at that young of an age because of a psychiatric condition is absurd.

Edit - and lol at premeds rallying around the kid's cause. Figures.
 
Forgetting the intermediate steps of glycolysis is just like the moral and medical implications of allowing a child to undergo sex-modifying medical therapy.
No, but it's a lot like forgetting the physiology of puberty, which was my point.

But, y'know, don't take my word for it. Take the word of the Endocrine Society, who designed these practice guidelines.(pp. 13-17.) You might have heard of them; they also publish several leading journals in the field.


"Over the past decade, clinicians have progressively
acknowledged the suffering of young transsexual
adolescents that is caused by their pubertal
development. Indeed, an adolescent with GID
often considers the pubertal physical changes to
be unbearable. As early medical intervention may
prevent this psychological harm, various clinics
have decided to start treating young adolescents
with GID with puberty-suppressing medication (a
GnRH analogue). As compared with starting sex
reassignment long after the first phases of puberty,
a benefit of pubertal suppression is relief of gender
dysphoria and a better psychological and physical
outcome.

(...)

Recommendations
2.1. We recommend that adolescents who fulfill
eligibility and readiness criteria for gender
reassignment initially undergo treatment to suppress
pubertal development. (1| )
2.2. We recommend that suppression of pubertal
hormones start when girls and boys first exhibit
physical changes of puberty (confirmed by pubertal
levels of estradiol and testosterone, respectively), but
no earlier than Tanner stages 2–3. (1| )
2.1.–2.2. Evidence
Pubertal suppression aids in the diagnostic and
therapeutic phase, in a manner similar to the RLE
(60, 61). Management of gender dysphoria usually
improves. In addition, the hormonal changes are fully
reversible, enabling full pubertal development in the
biologic gender if appropriate. Therefore, we advise
starting suppression of puberty before irreversible
development of sex characteristics. (...)
Another reason to start sex reassignment early is that
the physical outcome following intervention in
adulthood is far less satisfactory than intervention at
age 16 (36, 38). Looking like a man (woman) when
living as a woman (man) creates difficult barriers with
enormous life-long disadvantages.
Pubertal suppression maintains end-organ sensitivity
to sex steroids observed during early puberty, enabling
satisfactory cross-sex body changes with low doses and
avoiding irreversible characteristics that occur by
mid-puberty. (...)
An advantage of using GnRH analogues is the
reversibility of the intervention. If, after extensive
exploring of his/her reassignment wish, the applicant
no longer desires sex reassignment, pubertal
suppression can be discontinued. Spontaneous
pubertal development will resume immediately (66)."


There, happy? Official treatment protocols for endocrinologists. I've left out a few pages. They also talk about ruling out transient gender identity issues, and about the possibility that suppressing puberty could lead to lower bone density, just like natural later puberty does. (And early puberty leads to gonadal cancers, so as with everything there's a tradeoff.) But you get the gist.

Now if someone with some endocrinology credentials wants to come on here and argue, I will happily back down. But I also think they would be better off arguing with the writers of these treatment guidelines in a journal than arguing with a nameless pre-med on the internet. After all, science is about getting the truth out there, whatever that is.

I think the leading experts on endocrinology are probably closer to the truth than a bunch of people talking trash on SDN, and that includes me. :rolleyes: Now, anyone want to take a shot of liquid courage and claim to be smarter than the Endocrine Society? (Hint: I don't.)

At the very least I would like to think most people here would take the Endocrine Society's word over that of the Daily Mail.
 
Remember, this started at age 8, not even at 11.

Actually, according to the article linked to in the original post, transition started at 8 - which means that the child started using her new name and wearing different clothes. Medical treatment started this summer.

But according to the Mayo Clinic, an 8-year-old physically male child of any gender identity who was undergoing puberty would probably be prescribed - guess what - GnRH analogs, same as that kid is getting at 11.
 
Seriously? Parents? Who here is still ruled by their parents? If your parents hold any sway over your life at this point, you need to cut the umbilical in short order. Otherwise, you're just a puppet.
 
because he's a child. There's a reason that you can't make your own decisions legally at that age, and it's because you don't know what you're doing. You can argue that a 17-year old knows, but i am quite sure that an 11-year old does not.

If he wants to get married next year, can he do that? Why not?

I say "bad parents and even worse physicians."

+1
 
You guys honestly don't see a difference between following a standardized medical protocol to delay puberty and marrying an 11 year old off?

I would say that if we are really following this analogy, this treatment is closer to deciding to let your 11 year old exchange a promise ring in order to prevent them getting engaged or married so young. Yes, it isn't typical, but in this case it seems better than the alternative that the kid wants which is marriage at this young of an age (the kid physically mutilating themself to try and transition on their own).
 
You guys honestly don't see a difference between following a standardized medical protocol to delay puberty and marrying an 11 year old off?
Is there really a standard of care in this scenario? Or are you just saying that?
 
Seriously? Parents? Who here is still ruled by their parents? If your parents hold any sway over your life at this point, you need to cut the umbilical in short order. Otherwise, you're just a puppet.

The kid is 11. Of course they're going to impact his life... They're legally his guardians. Unless I'm totally missing the point of this post.
 
Is there really a standard of care in this scenario? Or are you just saying that?

Why, yes! Yes, in fact, there are!

Now, to the rest of the thread, let's do a little educating: Gay, lesbian, or bisexual is a sexual orientation. It's about the gender of the people to whom you are sexually attracted. Transgender, on the other hand, is an umbrella term encompassing a variety of different gender identities--genderqueer (neither/both boy and girl), a female with GID who was male assigned at birth (MAAB), a male with GID who was female assigned at birth (FAAB), etc. Beneath that umbrella, there are many different steps/stages of transition.

All y'all are talking about this like "OH HAI I WANNA BE A GIRL TODAY LET'S CHOP OFF MY BITS." It's not. As other individuals in the thread have pointed out, before you ever get any kind of medical assistance in transitioning (whether surgical or endocrine in nature), you go through therapy and live day-to-day life as the gender to which you're transitioning. It's a long, extensive, expensive process, with relatively clear designated criteria and psychiatric evaluation as an inherent component. It's not something you do for giggles. And it's not optional; as has also been cited by others in this thread, those who have GID (check the DSM, by the way; it's in there too!) have astronomically high rates of depression and suicide when left untreated.

I suggest you take the time to educate yourselves about this before you see a trans patient in real practice. I am close to an attending who works in this field, and the stories she tells about the way her patients are treated are ghastly. How would you feel if your physician called you "it", then brought in the medical students to giggle (not learn: giggle) at your partially-transitioned exposed form? True story.
 
Why, yes! Yes, in fact, there are!

Now, to the rest of the thread, let's do a little educating: Gay, lesbian, or bisexual is a sexual orientation. It's about the gender of the people to whom you are sexually attracted. Transgender, on the other hand, is an umbrella term encompassing a variety of different gender identities--genderqueer (neither/both boy and girl), a female with GID who was male assigned at birth (MAAB), a male with GID who was female assigned at birth (FAAB), etc. Beneath that umbrella, there are many different steps/stages of transition.

If you're going to take the time to criticize the remarks of others, you might want to actually READ those remarks to ensure your criticisms are valid. Who here is confusing sexual orientation with gender identity?

All y'all are talking about this like "OH HAI I WANNA BE A GIRL TODAY LET'S CHOP OFF MY BITS." It's not. As other individuals in the thread have pointed out, before you ever get any kind of medical assistance in transitioning (whether surgical or endocrine in nature), you go through therapy and live day-to-day life as the gender to which you're transitioning. It's a long, extensive, expensive process, with relatively clear designated criteria and psychiatric evaluation as an inherent component. It's not something you do for giggles. And it's not optional; as has also been cited by others in this thread, those who have GID (check the DSM, by the way; it's in there too!) have astronomically high rates of depression and suicide when left untreated.

Yes, that's the attitude of EVERYONE in this thread... To say that psychiatric disorders are not always static or predictable in their course is not to refute the accuracy of the diagnosis or the "reality" of the disease. Would you do an amygdalotomy on an 8-year-old who had clinical aggression issues? Or would you maybe wait a few years to see how things pan out as the child reaches a developmental equilibrium?

This is a kid we are talking about. With a disease, yes, and deserving of medical attention, but still just a kid. And while it's quite possible that delaying puberty in this case will have no significant ramifications, it may also be the case that this child would regret having made the decision a couple years down the road.

Maybe the benefits of treating in THAT way and at THIS time outweight the costs -- it's not clear that there are major costs -- and I'm not going to advocate for or against the course of treatment. I just think the issue isn't so cut-and-dry as you make it out to be, and I'd appreciate a little more respect towards the members of this forum. The implication that we're all uneducated and seething with malice towards people who are different is laughable.

I suggest you take the time to educate yourselves about this before you see a trans patient in real practice. I am close to an attending who works in this field, and the stories she tells about the way her patients are treated are ghastly. How would you feel if your physician called you "it", then brought in the medical students to giggle (not learn: giggle) at your partially-transitioned exposed form? True story.

Deliberating about the appropriate age to administer a given treatment is not the same as ridiculing a patient. Nice try.
 
If you're going to take the time to criticize the remarks of others, you might want to actually READ those remarks to ensure your criticisms are valid. Who here is confusing sexual orientation with gender identity?

An excellent question! Let's see, shall we?

Parents' and physicians' fault. That **** is ****ed up. More power to the kid if they want to be straight/gay/transgender when they are old enough to see beyond saturday morning cartoons

I'd say the education was needed there, wouldn't you?

This is a kid we are talking about. With a disease, yes, and deserving of medical attention, but still just a kid. And while it's quite possible that delaying puberty in this case will have no significant ramifications, it may also be the case that this child would regret having made the decision a couple years down the road.

See, though, here's what you--and the other posters--are missing about this situation. To be clear, I'm not trying to attack you, because you've been very reasonable in your posts, but the choice is not "wait a few years and treat later with no harm done." The process of puberty itself is going to do harm--significant harm--to a GID child. The conservative approach is to give the puberty blockers.

If the child later goes "Oops! I don't think I have GID after all!" (not likely, by the way; I don't think the attending I know has ever seen such a case, and sie has probably treated more kids with GID than anyone else in the field), then you take the child off the hormone blockers, and they have a normal puberty. If you don't give the blockers, the child is stuck transitioning later in life--much, much harder to do, particularly when they're miserable and unable to focus in school because of their gender dysphoria.

Deliberating about the appropriate age to administer a given treatment is not the same as ridiculing a patient. Nice try.

No, the thread by its existence and title are ridiculing the provider and/or the parents instead of the patient. That's so much better. Not.

Debating the appropriate age between informed individuals is perfectly fair; this is an emerging field, absolutely. But suggesting that there's an either/or of "bad parents or bad physicians" because you disagree with the management of the patient--having never examined the patient and having no background in this field--is really inappropriate, particularly when certain posters in the thread are at best... confused... about the subject under discussion.
 
An excellent question! Let's see, shall we?



I'd say the education was needed there, wouldn't you?
I took this more to mean that a person should be entitled to make all these types of decisions, but not that they are the same thing. But yes, I can understand where you're coming from.. I just don't think that's the prevailing tone of the thread.



See, though, here's what you--and the other posters--are missing about this situation. To be clear, I'm not trying to attack you, because you've been very reasonable in your posts, but the choice is not "wait a few years and treat later with no harm done." The process of puberty itself is going to do harm--significant harm--to a GID child. The conservative approach is to give the puberty blockers.

I guess I was just looking for a little more hard data on outcomes for those who go with puberty blockers vs. those who don't. If the blockers are in fact the safest route, by all means, go with it. It's just my suspicion that GID children have not had the option of such a therapy until relatively recently (given traditional stigmas about sex and gender), and so we've only really had opportunity to assess the drawbacks of NOT treating up this point. True, the documented side effects of blockers do not outweigh suicidal ideations, self-mutilation, etc. But it is in a sense a voluntary procedure, and one that is irreversible in the sense that timing of puberty can have an effect on the course of one's life.

I know it's not quite the same, but I see this as somewhat analagous to prescribing a young kid antidepressants. It can be warranted, and I certainly don't think childhood depression is just a fickle case of the "blues." It's just that, given the plasticity of a child's mind, there's something unsettling about doing it unless absolutely necessary.

If the child later goes "Oops! I don't think I have GID after all!" (not likely, by the way; I don't think the attending I know has ever seen such a case, and sie has probably treated more kids with GID than anyone else in the field), then you take the child off the hormone blockers, and they have a normal puberty. If you don't give the blockers, the child is stuck transitioning later in life--much, much harder to do, particularly when they're miserable and unable to focus in school because of their gender dysphoria.

Ah, this helps answer my question, but I still find it surprising.

Disregarding negative effects of treatment for a moment, I also wonder what the measured efficacy (i.e. GOOD outcomes) a full transition are? Obviously the gender dysphoria would be alleviated after treatment, but given prevailing attitudes in our society, are they significantly happier with life? Don't worry, I'm just speculating aloud and will do some research myself before I get chewed out :D. But if you have any insight, it would be appreciated.



No, the thread by its existence and title are ridiculing the provider and/or the parents instead of the patient. That's so much better. Not.
Disapproving is still not ridiculing. Your anecdote about the mistreatment of the TG patient made me very sad, as all humans deserve to be treated with dignity, but we do not have to agree with people to respect their humanity.

Debating the appropriate age between informed individuals is perfectly fair; this is an emerging field, absolutely. But suggesting that there's an either/or of "bad parents or bad physicians" because you disagree with the management of the patient--having never examined the patient and having no background in this field--is really inappropriate, particularly when certain posters in the thread are at best... confused... about the subject under discussion.

I agree. The thread title is not objective, and people have brought some uninformed biases to bear on this discussion. I am probably one of them. As you said, though, hopefully some education comes of this. No point in sharing opinions if you're no one's open to changing them. Sorry for the abrupt tone of my earlier post as well. You and Hastur have both provided very revealing perspectives.
 
I guess I was just looking for a little more hard data on outcomes for those who go with puberty blockers vs. those who don't. If the blockers are in fact the safest route, by all means, go with it. It's just my suspicion that GID children have not had the option of such a therapy until relatively recently (given traditional stigmas about sex and gender), and so we've only really had opportunity to assess the drawbacks of NOT treating up this point. True, the documented side effects of blockers do not outweigh suicidal ideations, self-mutilation, etc. But it is in a sense a voluntary procedure, and one that is irreversible in the sense that timing of puberty can have an effect on the course of one's life.

That's absolutely a valid critical perspective and I'm sorry you have to share company with knee-jerk reactionary ones.

Although I do have to say, "...we've only really had opportunity to assess the drawbacks of NOT treating up (to) this point" could have been said at many points in history (going backwards) of AIDS, cancer, heart disease, bacterial infections, and every other medical condition we have treatments for today. (Heck, Jenner had an enormous fight on his hands with smallpox vaccination.)

Yes, finding a treatment for a condition that affects people far worse if not treated in childhood absolutely poses more ethical complications - because of the need to try experimental treatments on children - and round and round we go... but the specialists ARE out there, and they ARE being careful, and making progress, and doing follow-up. And the Endocrine Society protocols do suggest that puberty be timed as normally as possible with the use of GnRH analogs.

Yes, follow-ups are in early stages - here are some links that might be of use to you:

http://www.springerlink.com/content/0083411303684228/

http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/j.1743-6109.2008.00870.x/full
 
Last edited:
An excellent question! Let's see, shall we?



I'd say the education was needed there, wouldn't you?



See, though, here's what you--and the other posters--are missing about this situation. To be clear, I'm not trying to attack you, because you've been very reasonable in your posts, but the choice is not "wait a few years and treat later with no harm done." The process of puberty itself is going to do harm--significant harm--to a GID child. The conservative approach is to give the puberty blockers.

If the child later goes "Oops! I don't think I have GID after all!" (not likely, by the way; I don't think the attending I know has ever seen such a case, and sie has probably treated more kids with GID than anyone else in the field), then you take the child off the hormone blockers, and they have a normal puberty. If you don't give the blockers, the child is stuck transitioning later in life--much, much harder to do, particularly when they're miserable and unable to focus in school because of their gender dysphoria.

...blah blah blah...

Borrowing a quote from the previously posted endo-society.org recommendation guidelines...

"Given the high rate of remission of GID after the onset of puberty, we recommend against a complete social role change and hormone treatment in prepubertal children with GID."

The kid in the OP's post began dealing with this at age 8, safely in the prepubertal stage.

:rolleyes:
 
Borrowing a quote from the previously posted endo-society.org recommendation guidelines...

"Given the high rate of remission of GID after the onset of puberty, we recommend against a complete social role change and hormone treatment in prepubertal children with GID."

The kid in the OP's post began dealing with this at age 8, safely in the prepubertal stage.

:rolleyes:

Aaaaaand... your point? According to the daily mail article, hormone therapy has not been administered yet, and GnRH analog was only started when the kid was 11, which is well within guidelines. And the kid still had a bar mitzvah, which means they have not completely changed social role yet.
 
Gender identity disorders in children and adolescents are different from those seen in adults, in that a rapid and dramatic developmental process (physical, psychological and sexual) is involved. Gender identity disorders in children and adolescents are complex conditions. The young person may experience his or her phenotype sex as inconsistent with his or her own sense of gender identity. Intense distress is often experienced, particularly in adolescence, and there are frequently associated emotional and behavioral difficulties. There is greater fluidity and variability in outcomes, especially in pre-pubertal children. Only a few gender variant youths become transsexual, although many eventually develop a homosexual
orientation.

Commonly seen features of gender identity conflicts in children and adolescents include a stated desire to be the other sex; cross dressing; play with games and toys usually associated with the gender with which the child identifies; avoidance of the clothing, demeanor and play normally associated with the child's sex and gender of assignment; preference for playmates or friends of the sex and gender with which the child identifies; and dislike of bodily sex characteristics and functions. Gender identity disorders are more often diagnosed in boys. Phenomenologically, there is a qualitative difference between the way children and adolescents present their sex and gender predicaments, and the presentation of delusions or other psychotic symptoms. Delusional beliefs about their body or gender can occur in psychotic conditions but they can be distinguished from the phenomenon of a gender identity disorder. Gender identity disorders in childhood are not equivalent to those in adulthood and the former do not inevitably lead to the latter. The younger the child the less certain and perhaps more malleable the outcome.

Adolescents may be eligible for puberty-delaying hormones as soon as pubertal changes have begun. In order for the adolescent and his or her parents to make an informed decision about pubertal delay, it is recommended that the adolescent experience the onset of puberty in his or her biologic sex, at least to Tanner Stage Two. If for clinical reasons it is thought to be in the patient's interest to intervene earlier, this must be managed with pediatric endocrinological advice and more than one psychiatric opinion.
By your own guidelines, they're not following the standard of care. I guess he may have hit Tanner 2 by now, but it certainly sounds like a complete social role change well before that.
 
Aaaaaand... your point? According to the daily mail article, hormone therapy has not been administered yet, and GnRH analog was only started when the kid was 11, which is well within guidelines. And the kid still had a bar mitzvah, which means they have not completely changed social role yet.

Employ your verbal reasoning skills, all knowing pre-med.:laugh:

The guidelines discuss more than GnRH analogues.

And a bar mitzvah is for males at age 13. Given the child is questionably a girl she would, in theory, have a bat mitzvah, it would occur at 12 (he/she is 11), and she would be dressed appropriately. The bar mitzvah is for the older brother.:idea:

Your point about not completely changing societal roles is therefore null and void, and you clearly need to continue studying for the MCAT.

And the parents are still dinks.
 
Employ your verbal reasoning skills, all knowing pre-med.:laugh:

The guidelines discuss more than GnRH analogues.

Yes, the guidelines discuss more than GnRH analogs. Since I didn't want to copy-pasta the whole thing into the thread, I mainly put in the part about the GnRH analogs to refute the claims that this usage was somehow shockingly unorthodox or contrary to standard of care.

And a bar mitzvah is for males at age 13. Given the child is questionably a girl she would, in theory, have a bat mitzvah, it would occur at 12 (he/she is 11), and she would be dressed appropriately. The bar mitzvah is for the older brother.:idea:

Your point about not completely changing societal roles is therefore null and void, and you clearly need to continue studying for the MCAT.

Why exactly should I be studying for a test I've already blown out of the water? :D

You're entirely right about the bar mitzvah, though, dammit. (I hold everyone to a standard of admitting when they're wrong. That includes myself.) It did seem a little weird to me, but I've actually known friends/family members to have bar and bat mitzvahs occurring late and early for various reasons, which is probably why I missed it. Derp. :smack: Conceded.

(Admitting fallibility: it's what's for breakfast!)

And... the truth is that, since none of us actually knows this kid or the kid's family in person or has read a case report in a peer-reviewed journal, we're ALL talking out our arses about extent of societal role changes. We have "known" this person for exactly the length of a few photographs and a 500-word Daily Mail article.

What we know about the kid's societal role is that the parents have let him/her put on feminine clothing for long enough for the nice newspaperman to take some pictures.

What we know about the kid's medical treatment is that GnRH analogs have been administered, as per guidelines, and hormones haven't yet, also per guidelines. But in any case, I'm pretty sure the specialist physicians the kid is seeing are a lot more qualified to make treatment decisions for that kid than a bunch of people on the internet who just read a tabloid human interest piece.
 
I don't see a problem with delaying puberty. It's much more difficult for a man who transitioned to a woman to pass for a woman than it is for a woman who transitioned to a man, in every day life. Why allow this child's body to undergo irreversible changes when they can be put on hold to give them more time to decide if that's what they really want in life?

Men who have gone through puberty who decide to transition to a woman often become depressed and obsessed with the fact that they can't get rid of their masculine features, and have difficulty passing as little more than drag queens. Why subject a transgendered person to that when you didn't have to? Why not just delay it and give them time to really make a well thought out, informed decision on it when they're older?
 
He clearly wants to be a girl. Why risk depression (or worse)?

Yeah, and when 3 year-olds want to dart out into traffic we should let them so they don't pout and have low self esteem. Parents and physicians abusing this child should be thrown into prison and the key thrown away. PERIOD.
 
Yeah, and when 3 year-olds want to dart out into traffic we should let them so they don't pout and have low self esteem. Parents and physicians abusing this child should be thrown into prison and the key thrown away. PERIOD.

That you compared delaying puberty to letting a child dart out into traffic tells me that you actually have some negative sentiments on gender identity disorders and SRS in general. You are not going to kill a child by delaying puberty.

Tell me, what do you do if you have a baby who is intersexed? How do you decide what gender it is? It used to be, and often still is, that if the doctor didn't think the penis was large enough, despite anything else, the child would be assigned as a boy. But this completely ignored the effects of sex hormones on the fetal brain and their role in determining gender identity. What if you have an XY female or an XX male? What about an XX/XY mosiac? AIS or PAIS? Is Caster Semenya a male or female? Most people would agree she looks and sounds like a male but she was apparently intersexed and assigned female and identifies as female and she probably very much would have liked hormones to keep her body maintaining the sex she identifies as.

Intersexed conditions do not always result in ambiguous genitalia and you cannot necessarily determine if someone who is transgendered has what is essentially a male or female brain based on their physical appearance or chromosomal makeup because the chromosomes do not always contain the genes they should for sex determination.
 
That you compared delaying puberty to letting a child dart out into traffic tells me that you actually have some negative sentiments on gender identity disorders and SRS in general. You are not going to kill a child by delaying puberty.

I think that's a huge stretch of an assumption to make, and quite unfair toward sirenomelia. Sirenomoelia did NOT say that delaying puberty is as dangerous as playing in traffic, so I think your response missed the mark. Instead, what I think her or she said was that adults are sometimes obligated to consider factors besides a child's stated desires, and "because it's what the child wanted" is not always a rationale that justifies a given course of action. This is not necessarily to say that a child's concerns are invalid, or that a child should always be denied a treatment he or she wants. It's simply the case that children a) are impulsive, b) lack a robust conception of self, and c) don't have the breadth of experience or mental faculties necessary to fully understand the consequences of the choices they make.

Granted, delaying puberty may still not be a big deal in this particular case, but I'm just trying to address a greater philosophical question. If it can be demonstrated that virtually all cases of early-onset GID persist into adulthood, and that it is never misdiagnosed, then I would approve of any treatment whatsoever, but given the plasticity of a child's mind, I am reluctant to endorse irreversible procedures for psychiatric conditions (once again, delay of purberty may not fall into this camp).

As regards your later question about transexual infants, I think you contradicted yourself a bit. You claim that "[Caster Semenya] probably very much would have liked hormones to keep her body maintaining the sex she identifies as," but you also suggest we shouldn't make decisions related to sex on an infant's behalf. Which is it? Was Caster Semenya's physician supposed to assume she would want to identify as female from the time of her birth?
 
Yeah, and when 3 year-olds want to dart out into traffic we should let them so they don't pout and have low self esteem. Parents and physicians abusing this child should be thrown into prison and the key thrown away. PERIOD.

But don't you understand, we need to make everyone happy!
 
That you compared delaying puberty to letting a child dart out into traffic tells me that you actually have some negative sentiments on gender identity disorders and SRS in general. You are not going to kill a child by delaying puberty.

Tell me, what do you do if you have a baby who is intersexed? How do you decide what gender it is? It used to be, and often still is, that if the doctor didn't think the penis was large enough, despite anything else, the child would be assigned as a boy. But this completely ignored the effects of sex hormones on the fetal brain and their role in determining gender identity. What if you have an XY female or an XX male? What about an XX/XY mosiac? AIS or PAIS? Is Caster Semenya a male or female? Most people would agree she looks and sounds like a male but she was apparently intersexed and assigned female and identifies as female and she probably very much would have liked hormones to keep her body maintaining the sex she identifies as.

Intersexed conditions do not always result in ambiguous genitalia and you cannot necessarily determine if someone who is transgendered has what is essentially a male or female brain based on their physical appearance or chromosomal makeup because the chromosomes do not always contain the genes they should for sex determination.

Force feeding their perverted liberal world view by endangering an unknowing defenseless healthy child with uneccessary procedures with potential risks from surgery and exposing him to uneeded exogenous hormones with potential long lasting toxic side effects because the child says he's a girl is as irresponsible and ignorant an act as I have ever heard. The kid is obviously psychologically deranged because his guardians are a complete joke and have emotionally damaged and brainwashed him to believe he's not a boy. If what this child was going through was genuine and they were addressing his needs out of care for him, then they would have handled this discreetly and not exploited him on public media so they can be attention ****** and draw their 15 minutes of fame for themselves they cannot obtain any other way because they are pathologically ugly pathetic fat losers. Any physician willing to subject this child to unwarranted procedures and hormone altering drugs for no legitimate medical basis as in this case should never hold a license to practice.
 
That you compared delaying puberty to letting a child dart out into traffic tells me that you actually have some negative sentiments on gender identity disorders and SRS in general. You are not going to kill a child by delaying puberty.

Tell me, what do you do if you have a baby who is intersexed? How do you decide what gender it is? It used to be, and often still is, that if the doctor didn't think the penis was large enough, despite anything else, the child would be assigned as a boy. But this completely ignored the effects of sex hormones on the fetal brain and their role in determining gender identity. What if you have an XY female or an XX male? What about an XX/XY mosiac? AIS or PAIS? Is Caster Semenya a male or female? Most people would agree she looks and sounds like a male but she was apparently intersexed and assigned female and identifies as female and she probably very much would have liked hormones to keep her body maintaining the sex she identifies as.

Intersexed conditions do not always result in ambiguous genitalia and you cannot necessarily determine if someone who is transgendered has what is essentially a male or female brain based on their physical appearance or chromosomal makeup because the chromosomes do not always contain the genes they should for sex determination.
why did you even join this forum?
 
Force feeding their perverted liberal world view by endangering an unknowing defenseless healthy child with uneccessary procedures with potential risks from surgery and exposing him to uneeded exogenous hormones with potential long lasting toxic side effects because the child says he's a girl is as irresponsible and ignorant an act as I have ever heard.

So I was right to speculate you had a political bias, and I think that's prohibiting you from examining the subject objectively. For example it seems you have taken hormone therapy to imply performing sex reassignment surgery on the child. The subject is delaying puberty, not performing surgery.

You might be unaware however sexual (re)assignment surgeries are performed on otherwise healthy children....babies, all the time. This often happens in the case of ambiguous genitalia whether it poses a health risk or not under the assumption that the child would be psychologically traumatized or "confused" if left with the genitalia they had.
Not only that, but there is a strong bias to surgically re-assign otherwise healthy male children to females in the event ambiguous genitalia or sometimes even when they have an unusually small penis regardless of whether or not they have healthy testes.

Hormone therapy is rather common in society for various reasons, as I'm sure your aware of. My great grandmother had a hysterectomy when she was in her mid 20's and had hormone shots every month until she died at the age of 91. That would have only been keeping in accordance with nature until she was in her late 40's or early 50's. It's true that certain hormone therapies have been associated with an increased risk of developing breast cancer and liver damage but when administered properly I believe the risk to be minimal. You might have other opinions on hormone therapy in general. Most doctors leave it to the patient to decide when it exists as a treatment option for them but some feel strongly one way or another.


The kid is obviously psychologically deranged because his guardians are a complete joke and have emotionally damaged and brainwashed him to believe he's not a boy. If what this child was going through was genuine and they were addressing his needs out of care for him, then they would have handled this discreetly and not exploited him on public media so they can be attention ****** and draw their 15 minutes of fame for themselves they cannot obtain any other way because they are pathologically ugly pathetic fat losers. Any physician willing to subject this child to unwarranted procedures and hormone altering drugs for no legitimate medical basis as in this case should never hold a license to practice.

Well I think there could be a legitimate medical basis based on what I know of intersexed conditions and the role of hormones in the womb on the development of gender and the brain. I invite you to research the subject more.

I can point you to various resources if you wish.
 
Top