Bad resident to good

[Maskchamp]

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Hi there, quick question.

Has anyone ever seen/witnessed a terrible, like really bad and untalented first year resident who at the end of their residency, became very very good?

Thanks

 

[Gern Blansten]

A couple of times I have seen bad residents become middle of the road residents. Hard to go from bad to really good. So, yeah, I think I can say I’ve seen them go from bad to good, with good being meeting the minimal standards. I’ve never seen one do a complete 180 degree turn and suddenly become a great resident.
By the time someone is late 20’s or early 30’s, the dye is cast and, almost always, they are who they are. When they show you who they are, you should believe them the first time. I was naive early in my career and believed I could positively influence and change people. I think that can only be done to a limited degree by the time they are residents. I never say never and I have seen some mild turnarounds, but the underlying person is always still there and will generally revert back when life turns difficult.

In contrast, I saw a resident who was in a different specialty (non-surgical) for many years and returned to do a second residency later in life. They were awful their first month (because they had not been in an OR since medical school). I literally thought I’d made a huge error in selecting them for a position. However, within the first three months, they knew the lay of the land and were one of the best residents. At the end of the CA 1 year, I was trusting them more than the upper level residents. They were that good. That situation is different because they were just thrown into a brand new environment after years of non OR medicine. Most other bad residents I’ve seen, it is a character issue. Those are difficult to fix.

So, essentially, you can almost always tell what kind of resident they will be within the first six months a resident is in your program. Choose wisely at the outset because the amount that you can change for the better will be less than you might think. Of course, I’m mostly speaking to character issues. But, academically, they don’t change much either. The smart ones stay the smart ones and the ones who struggle academically continue to struggle.

 

[CopaceticOne]

Most other bad residents I’ve seen, it is a character issue. Those are difficult to fix

But, academically, they don’t change much either. The smart ones stay the smart ones and the ones who struggle academically continue to struggle.

100% agree with these statements. Lazy / arrogant will remain that way.

I’ve realized clinical reasoning is the main area of teaching and getting through to trainees. Either they will get it or they won’t.

 

[AKMD_1984]

People change.

Your perception of calling someone a bad resident assumes that you’re superior and/or in a position of power to make that assessment.

If you’re teaching these trainees, then it becomes your responsibility to correct these character issues as it pertains to them practicing anesthesiology.

Simple example - one of the residents I used to work with always used to be labeled as lazy or having work ethic issues, when in reality the issue was him not valuing residency time commitments over his family. He just did not care to do more than bare minimum. Often times residency programs have mob mentality and compare everyone as the same - like no, a 27 year old single male may not have the same priorities and ability to participate as someone who has three young children while in residency.

Definitely - shifty behavior, lying, being slick, lazy, attitude - all these need to be ironed out over time. Some folks are so far away from the median that it takes a lot of work.

Ultimately, the standard is ABA boards. That tests competence.

The other stuff like character building and grit, either they have it or they don’t. If they don’t, then the training program needs to recognize and fix it over time.

 

[Hoya11]

Hi there, quick question.

Has anyone ever seen/witnessed a terrible, like really bad and untalented first year resident who at the end of their residency, became very very good?

Thanks

With skills like tubes, lines and blocks, yes.

With work ethic/communication/anger issues - not usually.

 

[CopaceticOne]

reality the issue was him not valuing residency time commitments over his family. He just did not care to do more than bare minimum.

Good example of a trainee’s internal factors that are nearly set in stone. I’m not a PD, so it isn’t worth my frustration to try to change them.

If someone is unsafe, I raise the issue. If someone is below the expected bar that a program has set, I raise the issue. Otherwise, I just focus on keeping my patients safe while the trainees learn.

 

[Gern Blansten]

People change.

Once they are that age, that has not been my experience for the vast majority of people I’ve worked with.

The other stuff like character building and grit, either they have it or they don’t. If they don’t, then the training program needs to recognize and fix it over time.

I think it is the individual’s responsibility to “fix it.” But they rarely do. In my experience, people who have issues in these character issue areas have no desire to fix themselves because they have little to no self awareness of how they are perceived. So they have no drive to change because their behavior is not a problem for them.

 

[aneftp]

With skills like tubes, lines and blocks, yes.

With work ethic/communication/anger issues - not usually.

Agree a lazy resident is likely to be a lazy attending in the future.

As for physical skills. I don’t think my block or IJ line skills were that great out of residency. No ultrasound during my training. I was really good subclavian lines cause we did so much icu.

But physical skills can be mastered.

A major academic university just let go of their residents recently. Me being inquiry mind ask if their slot was opened lol.

But they filled it internally with a surgery resident who wanted to switch into anesthesia (that’s why I tell folks who don’t match into anesthesia) just get into any program (surgery /im/em) and maybe an anesthesia slot opens up. You probably will get priority over outside candidate for open slot. But what the faculty (my old program director from 20 plus years ago is on faculty) told me was the resident just didn’t get it. 13 months in the program and no improvement. So it’s not like they let the resident go immediately. They gave them a chance

 

[gasmd98]

People change.

Your perception of calling someone a bad resident assumes that you’re superior and/or in a position of power to make that assessment.

If you’re teaching these trainees, then it becomes your responsibility to correct these character issues as it pertains to them practicing anesthesiology.

Simple example - one of the residents I used to work with always used to be labeled as lazy or having work ethic issues, when in reality the issue was him not valuing residency time commitments over his family. He just did not care to do more than bare minimum. Often times residency programs have mob mentality and compare everyone as the same - like no, a 27 year old single male may not have the same priorities and ability to participate as someone who has three young children while in residency.

Definitely - shifty behavior, lying, being slick, lazy, attitude - all these need to be ironed out over time. Some folks are so far away from the median that it takes a lot of work.

Ultimately, the standard is ABA boards. That tests competence.

The other stuff like character building and grit, either they have it or they don’t. If they don’t, then the training program needs to recognize and fix it over time.

1. I would argue with the responsibility for building character lies with trainees parents. The only time I address character is when serious patient care issues arise repeatedly due to character deficits. Anything other than that is above my pay grade and risks loss of job. Desire to change must come from within.

2. Not quite sure your point about a single 27 year old male. You aren’t suggesting that his accomplishments should be devalued? I am all for helping each other out because we all run into tough spots in our lives. Ultimately you can’t let personal issues consistently overwhelm your responsibilities in the workplace, especially when a mistake can result in a patients untimely demise.

 

[abolt18]

I'll only add that sometimes people unfairly get a bad rap as a "bad resident". Had a classmate who got labeled as bad in his 2nd or 3rd month due to no fault of his own (truly! Senior resident told him to go to Grand rounds instead of starting blocks/epidural with the pain team, then attending was pissed that he was 'late' and ripped him a new one in front of everyone. Of course, that senior resident didn't own up to it being his own fault.). The attending (pretty volatile guy, no longer faculty there) that got mad at him then basically told the whole world how bad he was. Once someone labels you as such, it's all anyone can see or focus on. He had to work twice as hard as me to dig himself out of that hole.

 

[Arch Guillotti]

I'll only add that sometimes people unfairly get a bad rap as a "bad resident". Had a classmate who got labeled as bad in his 2nd or 3rd month due to no fault of his own (truly! Senior resident told him to go to Grand rounds instead of starting blocks/epidural with the pain team, then attending was pissed that he was 'late' and ripped him a new one in front of everyone. Of course, that senior resident didn't own up to it being his own fault.). The attending (pretty volatile guy, no longer faculty there) that got mad at him then basically told the whole world how bad he was. Once someone labels you as such, it's all anyone can see or focus on. He had to work twice as hard as me to dig himself out of that hole.

Have seen this too. Image is everything. Attendings talk and gossip. Sometimes stupid stuff gets blown up unnecessarily. Fly under the radar.

 

[Iso4ane]

From what I saw as a resident and now as an attending, bad resident can become okay, but it’s rare they will become the best of their class. The great residents in the beginning usually keep it up and stay at the front of the pack; they get access to better opportunities and more difficulty cases, and often think of their own opportunities that most of the lower residents could even think of. But, to get better, it partly a time in the seat sort of thing, if you want to be the like LeBron show up early and be willing to stay late, you can only the weird stuff if you are around to see it happen.

 

[kidthor]

Hi there, quick question.

Has anyone ever seen/witnessed a terrible, like really bad and untalented first year resident who at the end of their residency, became very very good?

Thanks

OP - Why are you asking this?

I ask because if you happen to be a resident and think you're bad, you might just fine... there are a handful of outright bad residents, but they usually have a mix of laziness and defiance/arrogance. The rest of residents, provided they have a good attitude and want to learn, are rarely "bad".

 

[dannyboy1]

You can teach anesthesia. Why in the world do you think you can fix character issues? At best you can get them to cover it up until they are no longer under your thumb. ….

 

[AKMD_1984]

1. I would argue with the responsibility for building character lies with trainees parents. The only time I address character is when serious patient care issues arise repeatedly due to character deficits. Anything other than that is above my pay grade and risks loss of job. Desire to change must come from within.

2. Not quite sure your point about a single 27 year old male. You aren’t suggesting that his accomplishments should be devalued? I am all for helping each other out because we all run into tough spots in our lives. Ultimately you can’t let personal issues consistently overwhelm your responsibilities in the workplace, especially when a mistake can result in a patients untimely demise.

1. Yes and no. Parents are responsible for raising children. Not training them to have qualities of a good anesthesiologist. That mentorship responsibility falls somewhat on the attendings.

2. Don’t worry. I was that 27 year old resident. I purposely lived within walking distance from the hospital so I would always be available. For 4 years all I did was eat, breathe, sleep, and dedicate myself to my program in residency. I understand not everyone can or wants to do that. I’m just trying to be kind to those who sincerely cannot.

 

[gasmd98]

1. Yes and no. Parents are responsible for raising children. Not training them to have qualities of a good anesthesiologist. That mentorship responsibility falls somewhat on the attendings.

2. Don’t worry. I was that 27 year old resident. I purposely lived within walking distance from the hospital so I would always be available. For 4 years all I did was eat, breathe, sleep, and dedicate myself to my program in residency. I understand not everyone can or wants to do that. I’m just trying to be kind to those who sincerely cannot.

Sorry, did not read your post carefully enough. Attendings certainly need to mentor residents to help them develop clinical skills and judgement as well as professional behaviors that will help them in their career. However, there is only so much that one can do. I have yet to find the cure for laziness and I have had plenty of exposure to lazy colleagues through the years. They coast on the backs of those among us who would rather die than shirk work.

You sound like a good guy and a hard worker who cares for others. That is a good thing. However, your personal life and life happiness should not always take a backseat to the needs of others. I hope your fellow residents appreciated your good nature.

 

[Simba1711]

I struggled during residency. I’d like to think I turned it around as an attending. I had undiagnosed sleep apnea that didn’t get diagnosed until a few years after I finished training. I had all the symptoms my entire life. (Including high school , college, and medical school) but none of my doctors wanted to test me due to being thin. I’m not going to say my struggles were all due to my medical condition but it didn’t help especialy since we are sleep deprived as it is during residency. I had trouble concentrating, making simple mistakes , staying awake, was forgetful.

I guess my point of this post is that we shouldn’t automatically assume a resident is struggling due to internal factors ( he or she is lazy , incompetent , or not intelligent ) and give some consideration into external factors (medical or personal issues. )

 

[PpfSuxTube]

Hi there, quick question.

Has anyone ever seen/witnessed a terrible, like really bad and untalented first year resident who at the end of their residency, became very very good?

Thanks

Hi, you called my name?

 

[AKMD_1984]

Never forget - "you're allowed to make mistakes".
What matters is the pattern, cause and frequency and whether you continue to make the same mistakes.

 

[Maskchamp]

Your perception of calling someone a bad resident assumes that you’re superior and/or in a position of power to make that assessment.

I am not superior....this is a question a friend of mine is asking, but doesn't speak English. And neither is he.

 

[Maskchamp]

These are great answers guys, thanks so much, so cool to see everyone's thoughts. Much appreciated.

 

[deleted87051]

I am not superior....this is a question a friend of mine is asking, but doesn't speak English. And neither is he.

A you in an English speaking country?

 

[AKMD_1984]

I am not superior....this is a question a friend of mine is asking, but doesn't speak English. And neither is he.

Lol

 

[Maskchamp]

A you in an English speaking country?

No I am not.

 

[Burned_Out]

Hi there, quick question.

Has anyone ever seen/witnessed a terrible, like really bad and untalented first year resident who at the end of their residency, became very very good?

Thanks

I was labeled a "bad resident". It wasn't because my character showed that I was lazy but that I was a quiet, passive person. I had crap attendings who were lazy and didn't want to teach me anything. It didn't help that my program recruited foreign anesthesia attendings from like England, India who were just there to do their time in a US residency program. So I was compared to these foreign board certified anesthesia attendings masquerading as CA-1 residents. Worse yet, I had some Indian attendings who looked down on US grads like me. They wanted the program to be all Indian. I worked hard and graduated from the program, but f*ck them!

I passed my boards on the 1st try while one of my chief residents didn't (he was chief because he was a popular schmoozer). I completed a cardiac anesthesia fellowship at an Ivy league program and passed my PTEeXAM in TEE proficiency on the 1st attempt. I met some of my fellow former foreign trained residents, who were anesthesia attendings before, at the PTEeXAM testing center and I know a few who didn't pass. Over 20 years and people trust me to do the hard cases. Never appeared in a malpractice suit.

The truth is, before you condemn a "bad" resident, examine the politics of the anesthesia department first. Some programs still run infamous pyramid schemes where they MUST boot a resident out every year. My program booted someone out a year before me. He finished elsewhere and eventually became the head of his own private practice group. Very successful career.

As someone mentioned in an earlier thread, if there isn't a character issue, a so-called "bad" resident may be bad because he/she isn't receiving enough proper instruction and supervision.

 

[PpfSuxTube]

The issue is that some ppl come to medicine having wanted to be a doc all their lives and maybe even have family that are docs. So they have a huge headstart over others. So called gunners. Not their fault.

But that head start doesn't imply linear growth only skips some steps. Others catch up quick

So what you need to look at it, honestly how many hours has each resident spent learning and immersed in medicine... I bet you will find most even out when they have spent a similar amount of time on their learning curve usually about 4 or 5 years

So it's always very hard to Guage as residents obviously won't divulge the helping Starr they got or didn't get


Personally I was in another career and very good at it, happy at it but took a chance with minimal science or biology...

Worst 1st year resident ever I was told

I caught up by year 2 or 3 in residency and honestly by year 4 and finals I.was far ahead, and getting farther than pretty much all my class...

 

[CopaceticOne]

Worst 1st year resident ever I was told

I caught up by year 2 or 3 in residency and honestly by year 4 and finals I.was far ahead, and getting farther than pretty much all my class...

This is not surprising. Lots of growth happens across all specialities during intern year.

If by 6th months into CA1 year a resident is multiple standard deviations away from their peer average in clinical care abilities, they aren’t likely to become a superstar at the conclusion of residency.

 

[pgg]

Has anyone ever seen/witnessed a terrible, like really bad and untalented first year resident who at the end of their residency, became very very good?

Bad, according to whose judgment? I thought most people labeled as "bad residents" generally weren't actually bad.

I was faculty at a small residency program for 8 years.

I can only think of one resident that I thought had significant "attitude" or work ethic problems, but there were a lot more that got that label. Mostly undeservedly, I think. I usually felt it was more of an attending personality problem than a resident problem, because they seemed to have fine habits when I worked with them.

It's real easy to catch the "bad resident" label as a new CA1. A couple bad days in the OR, a couple bad pimp questions during group academics, a mediocre or bad AKT-0 -1 or -6 score (not sure if those tests still exist). And you're the resident on the radar, as attendings talk amongst themselves about who's good and who's not. Most of that gossip is crap.

That said, it's also easy, as a CA1, to fall behind your CA1 peers and not know it for months because you never work directly with your peers, never take call with them, and usually don't get great feedback from the revolving door of attendings you work with. Self assessment as a CA1 is really hard, and attending assessment of CA1s is usually spotty and inconsistent and just plain poor.


Of the handful of genuine problem residents we had, the two recurrent issues were

1) Academics. Really low ITE scores (as in low single digit percentile score, not a merely disappointing 18th %ile result) just don't seem to get better and their board pass rates are low. These residents are easy to identify early because you have an objective test score, and the program can try to help them. I was assigned as a mentor to two over the years and one improved and passed his boards. One didn't and ultimately left the program. I'm not sure I helped either in a meaningful way. Some of it might be work ethic and study time, but some people just have trouble making time-pressured decisions, whether on tests or in the OR. Those people probably belong in another specialty.

2) OR awareness and ability to manage cases and avoid complications. I don't mean monkey skills like tubes and lines and blocks. Everyone gets that stuff eventually. I mean the hard to define ability to multi-task and see the case well enough to pre-empt small problems before they become big problems. These residents are hard to identify early, hard to remediate, and hard to fire because it's so hard to quantify and document what they're missing. They're usually just fine academically, have good work habits, are personable and professional, but just don't GET IT when it comes to anesthesia. They belong in other specialties where they can reflect on a problem and take time to make a decision, when patient neurons aren't actively becoming hypoxic as minutes tick by.


It's important to remember that attending faculty at residency programs are rarely great teachers. They have NO formal training in education, teaching methods, curriculum design, evaluation of learners, how to give actionable feedback, how to remediate struggling learners or even how to identify them in the first place.

So - I think the "bad resident" label is almost always bull****. I've seen a whole lot of "bad residents" graduate and become fine anesthesiologists.

 

[Maskchamp]

Great to get an American perspective. These are great guys, thanks so much.

 

[deleted1183938]

You can teach anesthesia. Why in the world do you think you can fix character issues? At best you can get them to cover it up until they are no longer under your thumb. ….

Who is to say that “bad resident” means character issues? It can be a number of things.

 

[deleted1183938]

Hi there, quick question.

Has anyone ever seen/witnessed a terrible, like really bad and untalented first year resident who at the end of their residency, became very very good?

Thanks

What makes them terrible and bad??

 

[Gern Blansten]

Who is to say that “bad resident” means character issues? It can be a number of things.

It’s been discussed earlier. It can mean a variety of things, in my opinion. Character issues seem tougher to fix. As they were saying, you may be able to hide them a little, but they are typically still there. Probably pretty rare for someone to have an epiphany and, at age 30, suddenly say, “I’ve been a horrible person my whole life. I should change the way I am and the way I treat others!”

 

[deleted1183938]

It’s been discussed earlier. It can mean a variety of things, in my opinion. Character issues seem tougher to fix. As they were saying, you may be able to hide them a little, but they are typically still there. Probably pretty rare for someone to have an epiphany and, at age 30, suddenly say, “I’ve been a horrible person my whole life. I should change the way I am and the way I treat others!”

I know your response but I was trying to get the OPs answer. We are making assumptions that it’s a character issue.

 

[Gern Blansten]

I know your response but I was trying to get the OPs answer. We are making assumptions that it’s a character issue.

Gotcha. Thanks for clarifying.

 

[pgg]

It's a rare resident who has genuine showstopping character or "professionalism" issues.

I think that residents who are identified as having "professionalism" issues often just have some round-peg square-hole personality differences that create friction with certain staff members. Cultural or generational differences. At the risk of spouting some woke words, sometimes there's bias or even racism involved when people don't behave the way a 1950s TV doctor should. Once they're on the ****list and the faculty gossip mill gets going, they're scrutinized and every mistake or misstep.

The subjectivity of professionalism is also fertile ground for a paper trail to get someone fired on flimsy grounds.

If someone told me a resident was unprofessional, I expected to hear something egregious, but it rarely was.

 

[Gern Blansten]

It's a rare resident who has genuine showstopping character or "professionalism" issues.

I think that residents who are identified as having "professionalism" issues often just have some round-peg square-hole personality differences that create friction with certain staff members. Cultural or generational differences. At the risk of spouting some woke words, sometimes there's bias or even racism involved when people don't behave the way a 1950s TV doctor should. Once they're on the ****list and the faculty gossip mill gets going, they're scrutinized and every mistake or misstep.

The subjectivity of professionalism is also fertile ground for a paper trail to get someone fired on flimsy grounds.

If someone told me a resident was unprofessional, I expected to hear something egregious, but it rarely was.

I would say diverting fentanyl or other drugs is a showstopping professionalism issue, and sadly, almost every program deals with that at least every decade. If they don’t, they likely aren’t paying close enough attention. I’ve also seen other showstopping criminal behavior. Oftentimes it is just a sense of entitlement that gets them labeled as lazy or problematic. I’ve seen some fairly serious examples over my career. But overall, I count myself lucky to have worked with mostly outstanding individuals.

 

[deleted1183938]

It's a rare resident who has genuine showstopping character or "professionalism" issues.

I think that residents who are identified as having "professionalism" issues often just have some round-peg square-hole personality differences that create friction with certain staff members. Cultural or generational differences. At the risk of spouting some woke words, sometimes there's bias or even racism involved when people don't behave the way a 1950s TV doctor should. Once they're on the ****list and the faculty gossip mill gets going, they're scrutinized and every mistake or misstep.

The subjectivity of professionalism is also fertile ground for a paper trail to get someone fired on flimsy grounds.

If someone told me a resident was unprofessional, I expected to hear something egregious, but it rarely was.

I went to an international conference recently and met some docs from EU. In Sweden they get graded only by paper/computer exams. None of this subjective professionalism issues.

Sure enough when I told them what happens here his exact question was “How can you then prevent bias in the process?”

And they masks their tests in school by not putting their names on the exams. Just some random number assigned to them.

And they don’t publish papers describing the race of the patients/subjects.

And they don’t have NPs and their CRNAs are never independent.

Anywho I am digressing.

 

[Maverikk]

I went to an international conference recently and met some docs from EU. In Sweden they get graded only by paper/computer exams. None of this subjective professionalism issues.

Sure enough when I told them what happens here his exact question was “How can you then prevent bias in the process?”

And they masks their tests in school by mot putting their names on the exams. Just some random number assigned to them.

And they don’t publish papers describing the race of the patients/subjects.

And they don’t have NPs and their CRNAs are never independent.

Anywho I am digressing.

They also train for many more years with a lot less stressful schedule. Don’t have medical school debt. They do get paid well, nowhere close to here, but they have a better lifestyle. I remember during my psych rotation someone who was visiting from Greece who commented on how hard we worked. We started at 8am…had 2-3 hours where we sat around and talked about patients and their differential, drank coffee, done by 5 almost everyday. I think the working 5 days a week was what bothered her.

 

[deleted1183938]

They also train for many more years with a lot less stressful schedule. Don’t have medical school debt. They do get paid well, nowhere close to here, but they have a better lifestyle. I remember during my psych rotation someone who was visiting from Greece who commented on how hard we worked. We started at 8am…had 2-3 hours where we sat around and talked about patients and their differential, drank coffee, done by 5 almost everyday. I think the working 5 days a week was what bothered her.

I was confused by your statement and had to read it twice for it to click. Because I am like who’s sitting around for 2-3 hours talking about patients? The Americans or Greek? Then I realized you meant an American psych rotation. lol.

 

[GassYous]

They also train for many more years with a lot less stressful schedule. Don’t have medical school debt. They do get paid well, nowhere close to here, but they have a better lifestyle. I remember during my psych rotation someone who was visiting from Greece who commented on how hard we worked. We started at 8am…had 2-3 hours where we sat around and talked about patients and their differential, drank coffee, done by 5 almost everyday. I think the working 5 days a week was what bothered her.

That's why they had that financial crisis

 

[PpfSuxTube]

They also train for many more years with a lot less stressful schedule. Don’t have medical school debt. They do get paid well, nowhere close to here, but they have a better lifestyle. I remember during my psych rotation someone who was visiting from Greece who commented on how hard we worked. We started at 8am…had 2-3 hours where we sat around and talked about patients and their differential, drank coffee, done by 5 almost everyday. I think the working 5 days a week was what bothered her.

You really shouldn't compare Greeks to swedes or UK or any other EU country. Europe is just a geographical term and the eu is a financial agreement between vastly different countries with vastly different work ethics, beliefs, cultures...
In fact a lot of Europe hates their nearest neighbors and have gone to war repeatedly for centuries.
Europe is not one country.

The Greeks in particular are known the world over for their lethargy and corruption.

Medical school is as different in each country as the next. Even inside some countries there are different streams. Some streams for medical school are almost the exact same as the US and lead to about 100k eur debt. Not as bad as your but still bad. They're very stressful. They take very similar exams to you...

So there's that

 

[deleted1183938]

You really shouldn't compare Greeks to swedes or UK or any other EU country. Europe is just a geographical term and the eu is a financial agreement between vastly different countries with vastly different work ethics, beliefs, cultures...
In fact a lot of Europe hates their nearest neighbors and have gone to war repeatedly for centuries.
Europe is not one country.

The Greeks in particular are known the world over for their lethargy and corruption.

Medical school is as different in each country as the next. Even inside some countries there are different streams. Some streams for medical school are almost the exact same as the US and lead to about 100k eur debt. Not as bad as your but still bad. They're very stressful. They take very similar exams to you...

So there's that

I don't know about the greeks and their corruption however they are all quite different from each other.

 

[pgg]

I don't know about the greeks and their corruption however they are all quite different from each other.

What about their lethargy? 🙂

 

[Gern Blansten]

What about their lethargy? 🙂

The one Greek person (actually born and raised in Greece) that I work closely with is an extremely hard worker. N=1

 

[deleted1183938]

What about their lethargy? 🙂

Have zero clue TBH!! 🤣🤣
But if we compare everthing to the USA the world outside here becomes quite lethargic because this country moves at lighting speed. I have visited business and hospitals in other countries and it’s just so different.

 

[Maverikk]

You really shouldn't compare Greeks to swedes or UK or any other EU country. Europe is just a geographical term and the eu is a financial agreement between vastly different countries with vastly different work ethics, beliefs, cultures...
In fact a lot of Europe hates their nearest neighbors and have gone to war repeatedly for centuries.
Europe is not one country.

The Greeks in particular are known the world over for their lethargy and corruption.

Medical school is as different in each country as the next. Even inside some countries there are different streams. Some streams for medical school are almost the exact same as the US and lead to about 100k eur debt. Not as bad as your but still bad. They're very stressful. They take very similar exams to you...

So there's that

Yes they are all very different. Which ones lead to 100k in euro debt? I've known a few people from Ireland, France, Sweden and the UK and they all didn't have medical school debt (although every citizen is taxed much more).

 

[Gern Blansten]

Yes they are all very different. Which ones lead to 100k in euro debt? I've known a few people from Ireland, France, Sweden and the UK and they all didn't have medical school debt (although every citizen is taxed much more).

I’ve seen three British comedians in the past few weeks. Each one made several jokes about how awful the National Health Service is. Mostly revolving around the inability to get seen for anything.

 

[Drwine]

It depends on their drive and work ethic. I have seen people with mediocre technical and organizational skills work really hard and keep getting better and better. Especially if they continue that track after graduation they can make the transition to very good 3-5 years out.