Bad student asks for LOR - what would you do?

[Dalteparin]

Suppose a student who didn't do well on your rotation for some reason (e.g. chronic tardiness, poor quality of work) asks you for an LOR. How would you respond?

This has not happened to me (yet); it's just something that came to mind when interacting with an unmotivated student the other day.

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[crazybob]

Suppose a student who didn't do well on your rotation for some reason (e.g. chronic tardiness, poor quality of work) asks you for an LOR. How would you respond?

This has not happened to me (yet); it's just something that came to mind when interacting with an unmotivated student the other day.

Was that a one-time thing or something that keeps coming up?

 

[rxforlife2004]

Just making excuses that you're very busy with your work schedule, etc...and if he/she keeps insisting on...just simply saying that you'll gonna write a bad letter recommendation for him/her.

 

[Dalteparin]

Was that a one-time thing or something that keeps coming up?

To be honest, I've never liked his attitude. I'm not his supervisor, but I've told my concerns to his actual supervisor and that's the best I can do.

 

[All4MyDaughter]

I would say something like, "This rotation seems to have been a challenge to you for reasons X,Y and Z. You may have or may have had other rotations that better utilized your strengths. It would probably be better to get a LOR from one of those preceptors."

Or something like that...

I wouldn't make excuses. The student needs honest feedback on his or her performance. I think too many people sail through life thinking that they are the **** because no one was gutsy enough to give them HONEST feedback on their strengths and weaknesses.

 

[peppy]

Ideally I would level with the student about what I felt was wrong with their performance.
If I didn't feel comfortable doing that for whatever reason (or felt like the student was sincerely trying but just not very competent or smart or whatever), I would say something about how I didn't feel like I had gotten to know the student well enough to be able to write a strong letter and that they would be better off asking someone who could speak well of their strengths.
Why would anyone write a negative letter and let the student use it? No need to be jerkish about it by writing them a negative letter that could end up ruining their application when it's totally possible that maybe we just got off on the wrong foot or they had something else going on in their life that took their focus off their work temporarily. My view is that it is pretty much never appropriate to trash someone's application unless you know they are doing something outrageously illegal or unethical. Better to not write the letter than do that.

 

[IndustryPharmD]

I would tell them simply that I don't think I could write a good LOR for them and suggest they find someone who knows them better and would be able to highlight their best qualities.

 

[Sparda29]

Suppose a student who didn't do well on your rotation for some reason (e.g. chronic tardiness, poor quality of work) asks you for an LOR. How would you respond?

This has not happened to me (yet); it's just something that came to mind when interacting with an unmotivated student the other day.

Really? You're gonna say someone is not doing well because of chronic tardiness? Even if they stay there later than scheduled to make up the hours? What difference does it make if someone works 8AM-4PM versus 830AM-430PM?

 

[tungsten87]

Really? You're gonna say someone is not doing well because of chronic tardiness? Even if they stay there later than scheduled to make up the hours? What difference does it make if someone works 8AM-4PM versus 830AM-430PM?

...

you don't just work whenever you want... that's why there is a schedule

 

[Sparda29]

...

you don't just work whenever you want... that's why there is a schedule

Yeah, you usually set up a convenient schedule with your boss so that you'll be there on time. In my situation, I was just told in an e-mail "your schedule is 8AM-4PM". Huh, why not 10AM-6PM or 11AM-7PM? My main issue is that the route to this hospital gets me caught up in rush hour, and the traffic time has been unpredictable the last week. I was pretty much on time for the last 5 weeks, but once the damned K-12 schools opened, all hell has broken loose on the highways. Only way to guarantee me being there at 8AM on the dot would be to leave at 6:45AM, meaning getting up an hour earlier.

 

[KARM12]

Yeah, you usually set up a convenient schedule with your boss so that you'll be there on time. In my situation, I was just told in an e-mail "your schedule is 8AM-4PM". Huh, why not 10AM-6PM or 11AM-7PM? My main issue is that the route to this hospital gets me caught up in rush hour, and the traffic time has been unpredictable the last week. I was pretty much on time for the last 5 weeks, but once the damned K-12 schools opened, all hell has broken loose on the highways. Only way to guarantee me being there at 8AM on the dot would be to leave at 6:45AM, meaning getting up an hour earlier.

Being on work when you are scheduled is a sign of professionalism. If you are told to be there at 8am, you should. Being late once or twice is no big deal, but all the time is crazy. If you have to leave at 6:45, then be it. What happens if you have a patient scheduled then or rounds start? Your life in the real world will not be that flexible. Seriously, don't they tell you these things at your school?

 

[Garfield3d]

Really? You're gonna say someone is not doing well because of chronic tardiness? Even if they stay there later than scheduled to make up the hours? What difference does it make if someone works 8AM-4PM versus 830AM-430PM?

The difference is that there's probably going to be a 30-minute shortage and a 30-minute overlap in the case that everyone else shows up on time. If everyone else can shift their schedule to cover the gap and avoid the overlap, then it wouldn't be a problem, but that's a rather large demand to ask of everyone else; each of whom have their own priorities and daily responsibilities. Some places might be more laid back and accommodating, but I certainly wouldn't make that assumption before establishing a comfortable relationship with my fellow coworkers. Additionally, the workload at some places won't be able to accommodate random variations in scheduling, and the rest of the staff is going to get buried in that period that you decide to show up late.

In short, yes, it seems like a legitimate gripe to me.

--Garfield3d

 

[Sparda29]

Being on work when you are scheduled is a sign of professionalism. If you are told to be there at 8am, you should. Being late once or twice is no big deal, but all the time is crazy. If you have to leave at 6:45, then be it. What happens if you have a patient scheduled then or rounds start? Your life in the real world will not be that flexible. Seriously, don't they tell you these things at your school?

If there's one thing that I've heard over, and over, and over again for the last 5 years, it's been that my main weakness is getting there on time. I'm one of those people who literally wait until the last second to get out of bed, scramble in trying to get ready, and then finally leave the house allowing for no traffic.

I had an Asian boss one time who went into some long old school story about ancient China or something where the messenger boy in the Army was late, resulting in a message that was being sent from one General to another not getting to the destination on time, resulting in a battle being lost.

 

[Sparda29]

I'm probably not gonna go to sleep until 2AM-3AM tonight because I'm gonna play Starcraft 2 now. This is pretty much gambling on the morning because with only 3-4 hours of sleep, there's a good chance I don't hear my alarm go off. Or I hear it go off and just slam the snooze button. And if I do get up and get to rotations on time, very good chance that I'll be having narcoleptic symptoms unless I load up on caffeine.

 

[KARM12]

I'm probably not gonna go to sleep until 2AM-3AM tonight because I'm gonna play Starcraft 2 now. This is pretty much gambling on the morning because with only 3-4 hours of sleep, there's a good chance I don't hear my alarm go off. Or I hear it go off and just slam the snooze button. And if I do get up and get to rotations on time, very good chance that I'll be having narcoleptic symptoms unless I load up on caffeine.

Why don't you just go to bed?

 

[Sparda29]

Why don't you just go to bed?

Because I was at rotations until 4:45PM, then I drove to my job which was until 1030PM. Pretty much feels like I just wasted a whole day by working. Didn't even smoke hookah or play video games today.

 

[crazybob]

Why don't you just go to bed?

Starcraft is too much fun

Sparda, it's not very fun to show up to work when you're all sleepy. It's not even fun to show up to lab when you're sleepy.

Maybe you could play the game after you get off "work" tomorrow.

 

[Sparda29]

Starcraft is too much fun

Sparda, it's not very fun to show up to work when you're all sleepy. It's not even fun to show up to lab when you're sleepy.

Maybe you could play the game after you get off "work" tomorrow.

Man, tomorrow is the same exact thing. Rotations then work right after. Man, you bet Starcraft is fun. I'm trying to maintain this rank.

 

[powertoold]

Tell the student you don't think you'd be able to write a good one.

 

[KARM12]

In response to the original topic. It is best to say "no" or that you aren't able to do it because you don't think you could provide a strong letter of rec. Being on the other side for residency interviews, I've seen a few negative letters of rec. It made me question as to why the writer would even agree to do it in the first place.

 

[Sparda29]

But yeah, back to the original topic. Most students pretty much know how they are doing IMO. If they're not doing too well, then I don't know why they'd ask for a LOR.

 

[Dalteparin]

In response to the original topic. It is best to say "no" or that you aren't able to do it because you don't think you could provide a strong letter of rec. Being on the other side for residency interviews, I've seen a few negative letters of rec. It made me question as to why the writer would even agree to do it in the first place.

Honestly, I can somewhat understand why a person might write a bad LOR. Maybe the student has a lot of good qualities but has some small flaw, or maybe the writer just thought, "well, I told them it wouldn't be very good, but they asked for it anyway..."

And Sparda: Ooh, you might have to leave your house at 6:45! The horror! What are you going to do if you get a rotation where you have to show up at 6:45? And when you graduate and get a job, what are you going to tell the pharmacist you're relieving when you stroll in 30 minutes late? "Sorry, I know you've been here 12 hours without a break, but I just really needed to play Starcraft last night!"

 

[MountainPharmD]

This is not hard. Tell the student exactly why you will not write a LOR. Be honest and give specific examples. If the quality of work was poor and the student was chronically tardy tell them that. They need to know so they can improve.

 

[MountainPharmD]

But yeah, back to the original topic. Most students pretty much know how they are doing IMO. If they're not doing too well, then I don't know why they'd ask for a LOR.

That is why the OP needs to be honest with this student. Obviously there was a disconnect somewhere. The student thought they were doing well enough to ask for an LOR and the preceptor thought differently.

 

[quartel]

Honestly, I can somewhat understand why a person might write a bad LOR. Maybe the student has a lot of good qualities but has some small flaw, or maybe the writer just thought, "well, I told them it wouldn't be very good, but they asked for it anyway..."

And Sparda: Ooh, you might have to leave your house at 6:45! The horror! What are you going to do if you get a rotation where you have to show up at 6:45? And when you graduate and get a job, what are you going to tell the pharmacist you're relieving when you stroll in 30 minutes late? "Sorry, I know you've been here 12 hours without a break, but I just really needed to play Starcraft last night!"

I'd actually give him feedback if I was in your shoes. He can't say anything if he doesn't shape up.

You just have to do this in a face-saving manner or tactfully.

 

[Momus]

Really? You're gonna say someone is not doing well because of chronic tardiness? Even if they stay there later than scheduled to make up the hours? What difference does it make if someone works 8AM-4PM versus 830AM-430PM?

LOL sparda is beyond this world... wait until you become the pharmacist and one of your ancillary help decides to leave or come whenever he wants and mess up the whole work flow (i.e at rush hour)

 

[kvl1027]

Yeah, you usually set up a convenient schedule with your boss so that you'll be there on time. In my situation, I was just told in an e-mail "your schedule is 8AM-4PM". Huh, why not 10AM-6PM or 11AM-7PM? My main issue is that the route to this hospital gets me caught up in rush hour, and the traffic time has been unpredictable the last week. I was pretty much on time for the last 5 weeks, but once the damned K-12 schools opened, all hell has broken loose on the highways. Only way to guarantee me being there at 8AM on the dot would be to leave at 6:45AM, meaning getting up an hour earlier.

You never cease to Amaze me Sparda. So long as you keep this mentality, there will be one more job available for those of us who understand what it means to be a responsible adult.

You should go work for GOOGLE, I heard they let you come and go as you please so long as your work is finished. Although, I don't think there is much need for pharmacists within their organization. There may be several reasons why 10-6 or 11-7 may not work. One being that your preceptor is there from 8-4 and would not be there to supervise you during the other time periods. My pharmacy is only open from 9-6, so what would I do if one of my techs said, "I would rather get there at 11 and work to 7 so as to avoid inconvenient traffic patterns". I would say take a hike.

Just out of curiosity how old are you?

 

[charfdorn]

Yeah, you usually set up a convenient schedule with your boss so that you'll be there on time. In my situation, I was just told in an e-mail "your schedule is 8AM-4PM". Huh, why not 10AM-6PM or 11AM-7PM? My main issue is that the route to this hospital gets me caught up in rush hour, and the traffic time has been unpredictable the last week. I was pretty much on time for the last 5 weeks, but once the damned K-12 schools opened, all hell has broken loose on the highways. Only way to guarantee me being there at 8AM on the dot would be to leave at 6:45AM, meaning getting up an hour earlier.

I'm probably not gonna go to sleep until 2AM-3AM tonight because I'm gonna play Starcraft 2 now. This is pretty much gambling on the morning because with only 3-4 hours of sleep, there's a good chance I don't hear my alarm go off. Or I hear it go off and just slam the snooze button. And if I do get up and get to rotations on time, very good chance that I'll be having narcoleptic symptoms unless I load up on caffeine.

Because I was at rotations until 4:45PM, then I drove to my job which was until 1030PM. Pretty much feels like I just wasted a whole day by working. Didn't even smoke hookah or play video games today.

I'm really glad I don't live in New York so I don't have to worry about working with or having Sparda as a pharmacist. Dude, I hope you figure it out some day.

 

[Sparda29]

You never cease to Amaze me Sparda. So long as you keep this mentality, there will be one more job available for those of us who understand what it means to be a responsible adult.

You should go work for GOOGLE, I heard they let you come and go as you please so long as your work is finished. Although, I don't think there is much need for pharmacists within their organization. There may be several reasons why 10-6 or 11-7 may not work. One being that your preceptor is there from 8-4 and would not be there to supervise you during the other time periods. My pharmacy is only open from 9-6, so what would I do if one of my techs said, "I would rather get there at 11 and work to 7 so as to avoid inconvenient traffic patterns". I would say take a hike.

Just out of curiosity how old are you?

That's the main reason they gave. Is that part of ACPE guidelines, that the preceptor has to be there whenever the student is there? I've heard all about people who do their rotations at odd hours like from 4AM-12PM, 12AM-8PM, etc. If I had a rotation where I had to show up at 645AM, I'd be fine because there is no traffic at that hour. Start earlier, therefore leave earlier. It works out better.


Oh yeah, just as I predicted, I am totally out of energy today, fighting off the drowsiness. (I CAN fall asleep while sitting down or while standing up without falling down. It's pretty weird.)

 

[Praziquantel86]

That's the main reason they gave. Is that part of ACPE guidelines, that the preceptor has to be there whenever the student is there? I've heard all about people who do their rotations at odd hours like from 4AM-12PM, 12AM-8PM, etc. If I had a rotation where I had to show up at 645AM, I'd be fine because there is no traffic at that hour. Start earlier, therefore leave earlier. It works out better.


Oh yeah, just as I predicted, I am totally out of energy today, fighting off the drowsiness. (I CAN fall asleep while sitting down or while standing up without falling down. It's pretty weird.)

What the hell is wrong with you? No, the preceptor doesn't need to be there per ACPE guidelines, but I don't think there's a soul here that would trust you in any sort of an unsupervised environment. Also, see below. I forgot that part.

Not to mention, the world doesn't work because its convenient for your schedule. You're with medicine, they round at 9. You're with GI, they round at 5:30. Tough ****, deal with it.

 

[kvl1027]

That's the main reason they gave. Is that part of ACPE guidelines, that the preceptor has to be there whenever the student is there? I've heard all about people who do their rotations at odd hours like from 4AM-12PM, 12AM-8PM, etc. If I had a rotation where I had to show up at 645AM, I'd be fine because there is no traffic at that hour. Start earlier, therefore leave earlier. It works out better.


Oh yeah, just as I predicted, I am totally out of energy today, fighting off the drowsiness. (I CAN fall asleep while sitting down or while standing up without falling down. It's pretty weird.)

pre·cep·tor .
1. A teacher; an instructor.
2. An expert or specialist, such as a physician, who gives practical experience and training to a student, especially of medicine or nursing.
3. The head of a preceptory.

Tell me how a preceptor would live up to the definition of their title if they weren't there to give you practical experience. A preceptor who is not there is not a preceptor. Understandably, there may be some times when the preceptor has to go to a meeting and leaves you to work on a project or research, but the point is for you to follow them and learn from them.

You show up when you are supposed to show up. The easiest thing about your rotations should be showing up on time. I have major problems with people who are consistently late. It is the easiest part of any job. It is OK to be late on occasion, things happen. But if nothing out of the ordinary occurred and you are 15 minutes late, then next time leave 15 minutes earlier.

 

[Sparda29]

What the hell is wrong with you? No, the preceptor doesn't need to be there per ACPE guidelines, but I don't think there's a soul here that would trust you in any sort of an unsupervised environment. Also, see below. I forgot that part.

Not to mention, the world doesn't work because its convenient for your schedule. You're with medicine, they round at 9. You're with GI, they round at 5:30. Tough ****, deal with it.

It wouldn't be unsupervised. There would be pharmacists there.

 

[aboveliquidice]

It wouldn't be unsupervised. There would be pharmacists there.

Your attitude is wrong. I have no problem with you thinking outside the box, that's a good thing. It's when you have a problem doing what is necessary, that you run-aground (so to speak).

You have to be a team player. You have to be reliable. I don't think you exemplify such things (at this point).

 

[kvl1027]

Your attitude is wrong. I have no problem with you thinking outside the box, that's a good thing. It's when you have a problem doing what is necessary, that you run-aground (so to speak).

You have to be a team player. You have to be reliable. I don't think you exemplify such things (at this point).

I see you are a resident on O-town, with what hospital are you doing your residency?

 

[bananaface]

Hopefully you are not this guy's best bet for a reference.

 

[Sparda29]

Hopefully you are not this guy's best bet for a reference.

How is it that almost every geriatric white lady that is in my hospital looks like the person in your avatar? Asides from the ears.

 

[pharm B]

I think the most likely answer you'd see is the writer explaining why he can't write it and suggesting that the person seek someone else. As to why they would even ask for one, knowing they had a poor time of it, it's a good question.

I've seen someone who was a complete piece of dirt in the Navy ask his supervisor for a recommendation for a cushy job. In that particular instance, he got the LOR, but that was only so they could get rid of him.

 

[KARM12]

It wouldn't be unsupervised. There would be pharmacists there.

Right, but they are busy working and didn't sign up to take the student, your preceptor did. Are you really this thick?

 

[Passion4Sci]

Right, but they are busy working and didn't sign up to take the student, your preceptor did. Are you really this thick?

No he isn't. He's pretty much the most stealthy SDN troll around.

 

[tungsten87]

No he isn't. He's pretty much the most stealthy SDN troll around.

I hope this is the case.

 

[Sparda29]

What the hell is wrong with you? No, the preceptor doesn't need to be there per ACPE guidelines, but I don't think there's a soul here that would trust you in any sort of an unsupervised environment. Also, see below. I forgot that part.

Not to mention, the world doesn't work because its convenient for your schedule. You're with medicine, they round at 9. You're with GI, they round at 5:30. Tough ****, deal with it.

That's the thing. They don't round until like 11AM here. From 8AM-9:30AM, it's just pretty much getting bags together to go refill Pyxis, pulling meds and labeling the premixed IV bags, pretty much regular grunt work.

Unless the point of the preceptor wanting us to be there at 8AM is so we can help out with the morning orders and refilling Pyxis. Then I see their point, if we show up at 9AM or 10AM, they only have the 1 tech and 1 messenger working on this stuff.

 

[Dalteparin]

That is why the OP needs to be honest with this student. Obviously there was a disconnect somewhere. The student thought they were doing well enough to ask for an LOR and the preceptor thought differently.

Clarification: the student has not asked me for a recommendation. It's just a hypothetical situation.

 

[PharmaTope]

Clarification: the student has not asked me for a recommendation. It's just a hypothetical situation.

be honest to the student. people value honesty. just say, i don't think i am in the position to give you the best letter or the letter you may need for what you want.

you dont need to get into specifics but just be honest. never lie and never screw someone over. they may not have been the best student on rotations but you never know they could have been amazing on others. you also dont know things that are happening in their life outside of the hospital.

 

[kvl1027]

That's the thing. They don't round until like 11AM here. From 8AM-9:30AM, it's just pretty much getting bags together to go refill Pyxis, pulling meds and labeling the premixed IV bags, pretty much regular grunt work.

Unless the point of the preceptor wanting us to be there at 8AM is so we can help out with the morning orders and refilling Pyxis. Then I see their point, if we show up at 9AM or 10AM, they only have the 1 tech and 1 messenger working on this stuff.

If they round at 11AM, then the benefit of getting there at 8 is that you would have time to work up the patients on the service before you round. If you are not given this opportunity, then perhaps you should ask your preceptor if you can do this instead. If you approach it from the standpoint of wanting to be able to actually know what is going on with the patients during rounds, then maybe your preceptor will allow you that opportunity.

 

[StevePerry]

Suppose a student who didn't do well on your rotation for some reason (e.g. chronic tardiness, poor quality of work) asks you for an LOR. How would you respond?

This has not happened to me (yet); it's just something that came to mind when interacting with an unmotivated student the other day.

Ask for $500 in unmarked 20 dollar bills to make it happen. Only practical solution.

 

[Sparda29]

If they round at 11AM, then the benefit of getting there at 8 is that you would have time to work up the patients on the service before you round. If you are not given this opportunity, then perhaps you should ask your preceptor if you can do this instead. If you approach it from the standpoint of wanting to be able to actually know what is going on with the patients during rounds, then maybe your preceptor will allow you that opportunity.

We get an hour for that prior to rounds starting. Well technically the whole afternoon we're doing workups on patients.

 

[FruitFly]

Tell the student that you wouldn't be able to write a strong and completely positive recommendation and that he or she should probably contact another who could write a stronger recommendation.

 

[Dalteparin]

Ask for $500 in unmarked 20 dollar bills to make it happen. Only practical solution.

Best response yet!