Bad terms with PI

[HopefulOncoDoc]

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So I got into some bad terms with my PI. He asked that I no longer return to his lab due to my lack of attendance which I completely take responsibility for. I was going to ask for a letter of recommendation from him but now I don't know. I currently have 4 LORs under my belt, the usual 1 non-science, 2 science and 1 clinical from volunteering at a hospital. Do you guys think I should try and reconcile with my PI or do you guys think that these 4 LORs are good enough to apply with? I'm just worried that schools may wonder why I never asked him for a LOR since I did research in his lab for nearly a year and a half and I'm also looking to publish in my schools undergrad journal. Any advice would be greatly appreciated. Thanks a lot.

 

[balloons]

So I got into some bad terms with my PI. He asked that I no longer return to his lab due to my lack of attendance which I completely take responsibility for. I was going to ask for a letter of recommendation from him but now I don't know. I currently have 4 LORs under my belt, the usual 1 non-science, 2 science and 1 clinical from volunteering at a hospital. Do you guys think I should try and reconcile with my PI or do you guys think that these 4 LORs are good enough to apply with? I'm just worried that schools may wonder why I never asked him for a LOR since I did research in his lab for nearly half a year and I'm also looking to publish in my schools undergrad journal. Any advice would be greatly appreciated. Thanks a lot.

I was in your situation. I worked at a lab for a year but I knew my PI didn't like me because he always complained about the way I did things. He was super hard to work with but I was a stidy coordinator for 4 of his studies so I really wanted a recommendation from him. With recommendations, the important thing to remember is that it's not about WHO writes your recommendation but WHAT they write in the letter. If you know that your other recommendations are good, don't chance it. 1 bad recommendation will ruin your other 4 and raise red flags to the adcom. At the end of the day, I didn't ask that PI for his recommendation and still got into med school. You will never know what he will write about you so please please do not take your chances. 1 bad letter is not worth the trouble of having to re-apply to school

 

[scg]

I'm not sure how feasible it is to reconcile and get a good letter of recommendation. If he has the impression that you're a lazy/unreliable worker it may be very hard to overcome that perception. I guess it also depends on how long you have to rebuild your reputation before you request a LoR but personally I don't think it's worth the risk of a bad LoR at this point.

 

[135892]

So I got into some bad terms with my PI. He asked that I no longer return to his lab due to my lack of attendance which I completely take responsibility for. I was going to ask for a letter of recommendation from him but now I don't know. I currently have 4 LORs under my belt, the usual 1 non-science, 2 science and 1 clinical from volunteering at a hospital. Do you guys think I should try and reconcile with my PI or do you guys think that these 4 LORs are good enough to apply with? I'm just worried that schools may wonder why I never asked him for a LOR since I did research in his lab for nearly a year and a half and I'm also looking to publish in my schools undergrad journal. Any advice would be greatly appreciated. Thanks a lot.

You're seriously considering asking for a LOR from a prof that fired you for lack of attendance? How do you think that letter is going to go?

 

[cpants]

In general you don't ask people who have fired you for poor performance for recommendations. Let's say you go in and reconcile, no hard feelings. Do you really think he is gonna falsify your letter? He will have to write that you were a lousy worker, didn't show up, etc. Reconciling does not change what his experience was with you.

 

[tiedyeddog]

I was in your situation. I worked at a lab for a year but I knew my PI didn't like me because he always complained about the way I did things. He was super hard to work with but I was a stidy coordinator for 4 of his studies so I really wanted a recommendation from him. With recommendations, the important thing to remember is that it's not about WHO writes your recommendation but WHAT they write in the letter. If you know that your other recommendations are good, don't chance it. 1 bad recommendation will ruin your other 4 and raise red flags to the adcom. At the end of the day, I didn't ask that PI for his recommendation and still got into med school. You will never know what he will write about you so please please do not take your chances. 1 bad letter is not worth the trouble of having to re-apply to school

This is awesome advice. I can't see your letter being a good one. In fact, if I was a PI, I would straight up write about why I fired you and about you not being medical school material (not what I think about you, I'm just making a point about how bad this letter could be.)

4 other letters is probably good! Good luck.

 

[riceman04]

So I got into some bad terms with my PI. He asked that I no longer return to his lab due to my lack of attendance which I completely take responsibility for. I was going to ask for a letter of recommendation from him but now I don't know. I currently have 4 LORs under my belt, the usual 1 non-science, 2 science and 1 clinical from volunteering at a hospital. Do you guys think I should try and reconcile with my PI or do you guys think that these 4 LORs are good enough to apply with? I'm just worried that schools may wonder why I never asked him for a LOR since I did research in his lab for nearly a year and a half and I'm also looking to publish in my schools undergrad journal. Any advice would be greatly appreciated. Thanks a lot.

The PI's issue with you did not develop over one episode of tardiness! That being said, your PI would most likely base his assessment of you on a series similar events...and since he fired you clearly your tardiness outweighs your performance/help in his mind.

best of luck to you

 

[deleted212839]

Would a prof. say yes, he can write you a favorable LoR and end up doing otherwise?

 

[deleted212839]

also, when you ask for LoR and the prof responds positively (such as "I'm happy to write for u") and that's all, would u still ask him? how enthusiastic should the writer sound to make you feel "safe"?

at the end, when I receive the letter, SHOULD I ask him again whether the content is favorable (safe to send)?

 

[mbe36]

DO NOT RISK IT.

Even a mediocre letter can have drastic results.

 

[deleted212839]

DO NOT RISK IT.

Even a mediocre letter can have drastic results.

hi,
is this advice for me or for the OP ?

 

[mtnman12]

Grad schools deal with this situation ALL the time, and I think they always at least notice when you don't include a letter from someone you did research with. I didn't include one because my research was a long time ago and didn't really think the letter would matter - but then was asked about it at a few interviews. One guy told me they usually assume it means you're on bad terms with your PI.

I would definitely not ask for a letter, but be prepared to talk about it at an interview - in case.

 

[aznb0y129]

also, when you ask for LoR and the prof responds positively (such as "I'm happy to write for u") and that's all, would u still ask him? how enthusiastic should the writer sound to make you feel "safe"?

at the end, when I receive the letter, SHOULD I ask him again whether the content is favorable (safe to send)?

Why don't you just go by your relationship with the letter writer, not how many exclamation points he punctuates his sentences with?

 

[PremedIowa]

Your boss fired you for a lack of performance and tardiness and you want to ask for a letter of recommendation from him? And you don't even need another?

Question mark?

 

[LizzyM]

Do not ask for a letter from your PI. In all likelihood, if you do, it will be a toxic letter, even if you kiss & make up before asking for the letter.

As long as you aren't applying MD/PhD, the missing letter won't be a deal breaker but you may be asked about its absence at interview time so be prepared.

 

[HopefulOncoDoc]

Thanks for the advice guys, I really appreciate it! Anyways, I was never entirely lazy throughout the whole 1 and a half year that I was in his lab. For about a year, I worked pretty hard and I put in a LOT of hours. But towards the last 3-4 months I did get pretty lazy when I began my studies for the MCAT. Anyways, you guys are right though. Not worth it to take the chance of receiving a horrible letter. Thanks again guys!

 

[HopefulOncoDoc]

Do not ask for a letter from your PI. In all likelihood, if you do, it will be a toxic letter, even if you kiss & make up before asking for the letter.

As long as you aren't applying MD/PhD, the missing letter won't be a deal breaker but you may be asked about its absence at interview time so be prepared.

Yea this is what I was kind of worried about. Lizzy, if I do get an interview, how should I go about discussing this with the adcoms? Should I just be frank and let them know that my PI and I didn't get along too well?

 

[aznb0y129]

Ye't this is what I was kind of worried about. Lizzy, how should I go about discussing this with the adcoms? Should I just be frank and let them know that my PI and I didn't get along too well?

What are you going to say when they ask you why you two didn't get along?

 

[deleted212936]

You'll have to lie if you want to get in
I'm serious

 

[HopefulOncoDoc]

What are you going to say when they ask you why you two didn't get along?

I take that back. I'll probably end up saying something that I never really got close to my PI so the thought of asking for a LOR never came across my mind.

 

[aznb0y129]

I take that back. I'll probably end up saying something that I never really got close to my PI so the thought of asking for a LOR never came across my mind.

In other words, this.

You'll have to lie if you want to get in
I'm serious

It may very well work though, who knows.

 

[BlueElmo]

I'm in a similar boat, OP, and yeah it blows.
I'm sure we can spin the story in many different ways in interviews. Fortunately for me, I just got a new lab position so hopefully I can get a LOR from this lab.

 

[cpants]

No need to lie. Just tell them you couldn't ask because you decided not to show up for four months and then got fired. They'll understand why you didn't ask.

 

[HopefulOncoDoc]

No need to lie. Just tell them you couldn't ask because you decided not to show up for four months and then got fired. They'll understand why you didn't ask.

I actually did show up for the last four months that I was in the lab but I just didn't commit to the demanding hours that they wanted me to do.

 

[balloons]

<p>

What are you going to say when they ask you why you two didn't get along?

Just say that the research you did was quite independent and you had minimal contact with your PI. Given the fact that you worked independently and were only there for 6 months, you didn't feel that he would be able to evaluate you as thoroughly as the other individuals that wrote recommendations for you. Honestly though, I wasn't asked about this at ANY of my interviews..I was mostly just asked about the research itself. However, if you're really worried then don't mention this research experience on your apps at all.

 

[normlsaline]

To the OP: What you did was selfish and is exactly why some researchers don't let undergrads work in the lab. Seeing how your situation is actually more common than not, schools will probably wonder why didn't you ask your PI for a LOR, especially if you apply to any top schools (with research emphasis). Some of these programs might dismiss you all together and not bother to interview you but for those that do, watch out. Since they are probably already on to you, the worst thing you can do for yourself is to follow through and tell them what really happened. Instead, try to think of a plausible excuse. For example, application time is coincidentally grant-renewal season so tell them instead that your PI was busy renewing his/her grant and could not write you a LOR in time. Hopefully you won't find yourself in this situation when you apply for residency or better yet that onc fellowship.

 

[Ariadne]

To the OP: What you did was selfish and is exactly why some researchers don't let undergrads work in the lab. Seeing how your situation is actually more common than not, schools will probably wonder why didn't you ask your PI for a LOR, especially if you apply to any top schools (with research emphasis). Some of these programs might dismiss you all together and not bother to interview you but for those that do, watch out. Since they are probably already on to you, the worst thing you can do for yourself is to follow through and tell them what really happened. Instead, try to think of a plausible excuse. For example, application time is coincidentally grant-renewal season so tell them instead that your PI was busy renewing his/her grant and could not write you a LOR in time. Hopefully you won't find yourself in this situation when you apply for residency or better yet that onc fellowship.

Sometimes the things that are posted on here completely boggle my mind.

 

[silas2642]

So I got into some bad terms with my PI. He asked that I no longer return to his lab due to my lack of attendance which I completely take responsibility for. I was going to ask for a letter of recommendation from him but now I don't know. I currently have 4 LORs under my belt, the usual 1 non-science, 2 science and 1 clinical from volunteering at a hospital. Do you guys think I should try and reconcile with my PI or do you guys think that these 4 LORs are good enough to apply with? I'm just worried that schools may wonder why I never asked him for a LOR since I did research in his lab for nearly a year and a half and I'm also looking to publish in my schools undergrad journal. Any advice would be greatly appreciated. Thanks a lot.

Yeah, definitely don't ask for the letter-- it would be the kiss of death on your application.

 

[BlueElmo]

Sometimes the things that are posted on here completely boggle my mind.

Some people are just major a-holes.

 

[littlealex]

If he writes a lukewarm letter, and he will because you were lazy and didn't respect his lab and his work, it'll ruin your application.

Don't do it. Just move on without it.

To the OP: What you did was selfish and is exactly why some researchers don't let undergrads work in the lab. Seeing how your situation is actually more common than not, schools will probably wonder why didn't you ask your PI for a LOR, especially if you apply to any top schools (with research emphasis). Some of these programs might dismiss you all together and not bother to interview you but for those that do, watch out. Since they are probably already on to you, the worst thing you can do for yourself is to follow through and tell them what really happened. Instead, try to think of a plausible excuse. For example, application time is coincidentally grant-renewal season so tell them instead that your PI was busy renewing his/her grant and could not write you a LOR in time. Hopefully you won't find yourself in this situation when you apply for residency or better yet that onc fellowship.

Normlsaline wtf are you talking about? I agree what OP did was selfish and it's a huge reason why undergrads have a bad reputation in labs, but everything after the first sentence is just complete feces as your verbal diarrhea took over. Please stop speaking with and out of your buttocks.

 

[deleted212936]

I take that back. I'll probably end up saying something that I never really got close to my PI so the thought of asking for a LOR never came across my mind.

👍

 

[copingmethods]

To the OP: What you did was selfish and is exactly why some researchers don't let undergrads work in the lab. Seeing how your situation is actually more common than not, schools will probably wonder why didn't you ask your PI for a LOR, especially if you apply to any top schools (with research emphasis). Some of these programs might dismiss you all together and not bother to interview you but for those that do, watch out. Since they are probably already on to you, the worst thing you can do for yourself is to follow through and tell them what really happened. Instead, try to think of a plausible excuse. For example, application time is coincidentally grant-renewal season so tell them instead that your PI was busy renewing his/her grant and could not write you a LOR in time. Hopefully you won't find yourself in this situation when you apply for residency or better yet that onc fellowship.

That's not so much an excuse as it is a flat-out lie.

 

[crazycooljoel]

Couple questions, since i'm still learning and in the beginning stages of my premed degree... And don't have any research hours.

1. What is a PI?

2. What are research hours? I mean, what do you research to consider research hours? just read medical books and stuff or is it actual projects or research on theories?

 

[HopefulOncoDoc]

Hey guys thanks a lot for the advice, I really appreciate it. What I'm also worried about is that I'm looking to publish some of the work I did in the lab in my schools undergraduate journal. If I do this, how would the adcoms view this situation then? Would my excuse saying that I never really got to know my PI be enough?

 

[roflcakes887]

don't get a letter from him.

no ADCOM will care

 

[BlueElmo]

Couple questions, since i'm still learning and in the beginning stages of my premed degree... And don't have any research hours.

1. What is a PI?

2. What are research hours? I mean, what do you research to consider research hours? just read medical books and stuff or is it actual projects or research on theories?

1. Principal Investigator

2. The hours you put in during your research lab = research hours

 

[silas2642]

Hey guys thanks a lot for the advice, I really appreciate it. What I'm also worried about is that I'm looking to publish some of the work I did in the lab in my schools undergraduate journal. If I do this, how would the adcoms view this situation then? Would my excuse saying that I never really got to know my PI be enough?

Yeah, you're going to have to come up with something or better yet, don't put the work you did/did not do on your AMCAS application if it gets published in your school's undergraduate journal. The reason I'm suggesting this (take it with a grain of salt) is that if it is published in your school's UNDERGRADUATE journal, adcoms may not even really care about it. If you are asked about why you didn't get a letter from your PI after working with him for months, it may seem a little fishy that you didn't even get to know him well enough to ask him for that lor. I doubt that this would get you into trouble, but who knows?

 

[tiedyeddog]

Sometimes the things that are posted on here completely boggle my mind.

I agree.... Still trying to wrap my head around it...

 

[binko]

I don't think there's any need to lie. You say that you and your PI had a disagreement about the hours you were expected to work; you wanted to cut back to focus more on MCAT prep and the PI didn't sympathize. Since you and he didn't come to an agreement about the hours, he fired you. That doesn't make you sound lazy, it makes you sound prioritized IMO. If I were on an adcom and I heard this I would appreciate the honesty and not hold anything against you. It would only raise a red flag if there were many situations like this, which would indicate a habit of burning bridges.

 

[binko]

To the OP: What you did was selfish and is exactly why some researchers don't let undergrads work in the lab. Seeing how your situation is actually more common than not, schools will probably wonder why didn't you ask your PI for a LOR, especially if you apply to any top schools (with research emphasis). Some of these programs might dismiss you all together and not bother to interview you but for those that do, watch out. Since they are probably already on to you, the worst thing you can do for yourself is to follow through and tell them what really happened. Instead, try to think of a plausible excuse. For example, application time is coincidentally grant-renewal season so tell them instead that your PI was busy renewing his/her grant and could not write you a LOR in time. Hopefully you won't find yourself in this situation when you apply for residency or better yet that onc fellowship.

WTF is this? "Selfish"? Did you get attacked by a lazy undergrad as a child or something? Yeah, it was unprofessional, but why this insane diatribe?

I take it the OP has learned his lesson, that it's more professional to request a change in hours and be up-front if that commitment is too much, than to bite off more than you can chew and potentially get fired.

I think most of us can sympathize with the OP – in undergrad as a pre-med there are tons of demands on your time, and most of us have very little experience prioritizing and knowing how much we can handle prior to going to college and are trying to develop those skills with a sink-or-swim strategy.

 

[aznb0y129]

I don't think there's any need to lie. You say that you and your PI had a disagreement about the hours you were expected to work; you wanted to cut back to focus more on MCAT prep and the PI didn't sympathize. Since you and he didn't come to an agreement about the hours, he fired you. That doesn't make you sound lazy, it makes you sound prioritized IMO. If I were on an adcom and I heard this I would appreciate the honesty and not hold anything against you. It would only raise a red flag if there were many situations like this, which would indicate a habit of burning bridges.

If I were an adcom, I would find this highly suspect. Just like in a job interview, if you tell your interviewer that you and your previous supervisor didn't get along, that's a red flag IMO.

 

[binko]

If I were an adcom, I would find this highly suspect. Just like in a job interview, if you tell your interviewer that you and your previous supervisor didn't get along, that's a red flag IMO.

Having different expectations about hours is not the same as "didn't get along". It's not like it was a personality conflict or a fight. It was a logistical incompatibility with the job. If the OP explains it that way I don't think it would be a problem, especially if the OP throws in a little "I learned from this experience about managing my time better" shpiel.

 

[cpants]

Having different expectations about hours is not the same as "didn't get along". It's not like it was a personality conflict or a fight. It was a logistical incompatibility with the job. If the OP explains it that way I don't think it would be a problem, especially if the OP throws in a little "I learned from this experience about managing my time better" shpiel.

Still a warning sign. Medical schools are highly demanding when it comes to hours required. They certainly don't want to have disagreements with students on that front.

 

[Red Leader]

uhhh I don't think you should lie, that will only bring you trouble.

Also you should have told your PI you were going to get busy due to the MCAT. It seems like you just disappeared from the lab apparently with some project in your hands at the same time this happened.

But hey if it's one thing that pre-meds like to do its lying, I mean err.. "spinning" things into a more favorable light. Take that as you will, but even though this:

I take that back. I'll probably end up saying something that I never really got close to my PI so the thought of asking for a LOR never came across my mind.

is borderline and weak, it will probably mush over your dilemma better than anything else. Your goal now is to let this event not cause damage rather than making it seem positive somehow.

 

[virusgirl]

Don't ask your PI for an LOR. I repeat, DO NOT ASK. It will be a bad letter, which is worse than no letter at all.

Whether or not the absence of this letter will be a red flag is questionable. I think it depends upon other aspects of your application. Is there anyone else who can write a research-oriented LOR for you? I ask because I've worked in several labs over the years, and just had major personality conflicts with one PI in particular. He did not write an LOR, but since I had other people I could ask, the adcoms were able to see that I was good at research and able to work as part of a team. I had plenty of interviews, and the absence of that letter in particular was only mentioned at one of them -- and I gave an honest answer: "My advisor and I had a strained relationship, and I didn't feel comfortable asking him for a letter." I figured that if they wanted more detail than that, they could ask (they didn't).

On the other hand, if this is your only research experience, then the lack of a letter will stand out more. However, it's really a moot point. You will be applying to schools without an LOR from this PI, and it may or may not hurt you. You can't change the situation, so try not to dwell and move on. You certainly won't be the first person to have something less-than-perfect about their application! In interviews, don't bring up the topic, but if you're asked about it, answer professionally and briefly. If they have specific questions about the nature of your relationship, they will ask you.

Personally, I don't think this will be a deal-breaker for you. It might be a bigger issue at a heavily research-oriented school, but otherwise, try not to stress. What's done is done.

 

[CCLCMer]

So I got into some bad terms with my PI. He asked that I no longer return to his lab due to my lack of attendance which I completely take responsibility for. I was going to ask for a letter of recommendation from him but now I don't know. I currently have 4 LORs under my belt, the usual 1 non-science, 2 science and 1 clinical from volunteering at a hospital. Do you guys think I should try and reconcile with my PI or do you guys think that these 4 LORs are good enough to apply with? I'm just worried that schools may wonder why I never asked him for a LOR since I did research in his lab for nearly a year and a half and I'm also looking to publish in my schools undergrad journal. Any advice would be greatly appreciated. Thanks a lot.

You would be insane to ask a PI who obviously doesn't think you have a good work ethic to write you a LOR. Forget about asking him for it. But since you admit you didn't handle things properly, you should still go talk to him and apologize for making the mistake. Then leave him alone. If med schools ask why you didn't get one from him, I would just tell them the truth, that you didn't handle your lab job as responsibly as you should have, and that you realize now how important it is to be reliable and professional because of this experience. But only say that if someone asks, don't volunteer that info.

 

[binko]

Still a warning sign. Medical schools are highly demanding when it comes to hours required. They certainly don't want to have disagreements with students on that front.

Perhaps, but I still think pretending you are, and have always been, perfect in all ways is not a good strategy, although I seem to be in the minority on this one.

 

[pathophys17]

In case you're still trying to decide...do NOT request the letter. Especially if you don't need it. You don't want to take that small chance that they'll write something derogatory about you. To whomever flipped out a bunch of posts above, it seems as though the OP learned his lesson, and takes full responsibility for being late.

 

[student1799]

Perhaps, but I still think pretending you are, and have always been, perfect in all ways is not a good strategy

I don't think so either. But we have to face up to reality here: if you admit to a failing that could be seen as in any way relevant to your ability to succeed in med school, why would they take a chance on you? That's almost like applying for a job in a senior citizens' center and saying in the interview, "Frankly, I don't really like old people."

And I do have to take issue with your characterization of the OP's situation with his PI as a "disagreement about hours." The possibillity of "disagreement" implies that the PI and the OP were on equal terms, when in fact they had an employer/employee relationship. (This is true even if the OP was not getting paid, because a lab job is "serious" volunteer work that requires a commitment.) In such a relationship, the boss sets the hours and the employee has no opportunity to "disagree" with them, except by quitting the job.

The time to reach an understanding about expected hours was before the OP took the job, as I'm sure he understands now. IMO, it would only make him look less mature to explain the absence of an LOR by saying that he disagreed with his boss about expected hours.

 

[HopefulOncoDoc]

Is there anyone else who can write a research-oriented LOR for you?

Unfortunately, this is my first and only research experience. I'm looking to join another lab but that won't be until summer time and I intend on applying this coming cycle so I'm really worried about how this will affect me. It's strange how something I volunteered for and committed myself to would actually turn into a possibly of having a negative effect on my application. Nevertheless, it is my fault and I accept the consequences. Thanks a lot everyone for the advice.