Basic science research with MD?

[DrowningInWork]

I would like to go into translational research. However, I don't see myself being happy cooped up in the lab all the time. I know I'd be a good MD/PhD candidate, but I *really* don't want to stay in school for that long, and I know PhD only fits with my career goals, but I'm worried about job security, etc if I follow that path. How likely is it that I would be able to make a research career with only an MD? Also, would adcoms doubt my commitment to healthcare if I said I wanted to do translational research?

---

Members don't see this ad.

 

[hoihaie]

You can totally do research with only MD. There are plenty of people who do so.

Also, translational research doesn't mean you dont get cooped up in the lab all the time... it's very similar to basic research in terms of the amount of time you're in lab. you just have a different focus than basic sciences.

unless you're thinking about clinical research?

 

[DrowningInWork]

You can totally do research with only MD. There are plenty of people who do so.

Also, translational research doesn't mean you dont get cooped up in the lab all the time... it's very similar to basic research in terms of the amount of time you're in lab. you just have a different focus than basic sciences.

unless you're thinking about clinical research?

I realize that lab time in translational research=lab time in basic science. But theoretically, as an MD I will get to see patients while doing research, yeah?

 

[hoihaie]

I realize that lab time in translational research=lab time in basic science. But theoretically, as an MD I will get to see patients while doing research, yeah?

yeah you can do that, but you'd be incredibly busy running a lab AND doing clinics, but it's totally doable.

 

[Aerus]

You need to dedicate a large amount of time to run a lab, but also need to see patients regularly in order to maintain your clinical skills. That's why MD/PhD's typically do 80/20 for lab/patients.

 

[DrowningInWork]

Is "I want to start practicing as soon as I can" an acceptable answer for why not MD/PhD? I have a feeling I'll be asked this multiple times considering my research background.

 

[Australopithekus]

If you want to focus on research, I would recommend the PhD. Beyond the postdoc level, you probably wouldn't be doing much actual lab work anyway; you'll focus more on grant writing and that sort of thing. If you look at the average age of first-time R01 recipients, it's younger for PhDs.

MD = Medical school (+ debt) to residency (years) to clinical work & research mix.
PhD = Grad school (funded + stipend) to research career (postdoc(s) to investigator).

Of course if you're set on doing some clinical work, you'll need the MD. It's worth noting that the competition is extremely stiff for research funding and investigator positions, regardless of your degree.

 

[DrowningInWork]

If you want to focus on research, I would recommend the PhD. Beyond the postdoc level, you probably wouldn't be doing much actual lab work anyway; you'll focus more on grant writing and that sort of thing. If you look at the average age of first-time R01 recipients, it's younger for PhDs.

MD = Medical school (+ debt) to residency (years) to clinical work & research mix.
PhD = Grad school (funded + stipend) to research career (postdoc(s) to investigator).

Of course if you're set on doing some clinical work, you'll need the MD. It's worth noting that the competition is extremely stiff for research funding and investigator positions, regardless of your degree.

PhD only? I don't know, it seems like a huge risk. I'd only do a PhD within an MD/PhD so that I'll have a backup if I can't make it in academia, as bad at that sounds. As I said, job security is a big factor in choosing my career. I know that I can get into and make it through MD or PhD programs, but I'm more likely to be "guaranteed" a stable job with an MD.

 

[Aerus]

PhD only? I don't know, it seems like a huge risk. I'd only do a PhD within an MD/PhD so that I'll have a backup if I can't make it in academia, as bad at that sounds. As I said, job security is a big factor in choosing my career. I know that I can get into and make it through MD or PhD programs, but I'm more likely to be "guaranteed" a stable job with an MD.

What about happiness and doing what you love? This should be up there on your list of factors too.

 

[SynBio]

If you look at the average age of first-time R01 recipients, it's younger for PhDs.

This is true, but not by much

PhD: 42 y/o
MD: 44 y/o
MD-PhD: 43 y/o

per The Vanishing Physician-Scientist? So whatever training path you take, on average, you will get an R01 around the same time. Absolute number wise, PhDs get more R01 grants, but proportionally to the number of a particular group holding a degree(s), MD-PhDs are the most successful group.

Either way you go into science will take almost a decade and a half to get a "guaranteed" job (more likely longer).

MD: Medical school (4) + Residency (3-5) + Fellowship (2-3) + Post-doc (2-3) = ~13
MD-PhD: MD-PhD (8) + Residency (3-5) + Fellowship (2-3) + Post-doc (2-3) = ~17
A quick note: If someone was to do a research residency like the ABIM Research Track then the training would go down for both MD and MD-PhD, although MD-PhD would likely have more training in basic/translational science and be more competitive. For this track residency and fellowship are combined into 6-8 years, with 2-3 years dedicated research time, so it is almost like an integrated post-doc within the fellowship. MD ~11 years & MD-PhD ~ 15 years. There are other research pathways such as Holman Pathway (rad onc & radiology).
PhD: Grad school (5)+Post-doc1(2-3) +? Post-doc2(2-3): ~10.

On top of any one of these paths, if you do manage to land an academic job as an assistant professor, you will typically hold this for ~5 years before you are up for a "guaranteed" job (tenured associate professor), and that is definitely not guaranteed.

 

[DrowningInWork]

What about happiness and doing what you love? This should be up there on your list of factors too.

Honestly, I'll be doing what I love either way. But I also want a family. I'll love my family as much as my career. And I want to give my kids the stability I had throughout my childhood, financial and otherwise, and that's not necessarily going to happen with a PhD.

 

[DrowningInWork]

This is true, but not by much

PhD: 42 y/o
MD: 44 y/o
MD-PhD: 43 y/o

per The Vanishing Physician-Scientist. So whatever training path you take, on average, you will get an R01 around the same time. Absolute number wise, PhDs get more R01 grants, but proportionally to the number of a particular group holding a degree(s), MD-PhDs are the most successful group.

Either way you go into science will take almost a decade and a half to get a "guaranteed" job.

MD: Medical school (4) + Residency (3-5) + Fellowship (2-3) + Post-doc (2-3) = ~13
MD-PhD: MD-PhD (8) + Residency (3-5) + Fellowship (2-3) + Post-doc (2-3) = ~17
A quick note: If someone was to do a research residency like the ABIM Research Track then the training would go down for both MD and MD-PhD, although MD-PhD would likely have more training in basic/translational science and be more competitive. For this track residency and fellowship are combined into 6-8 years, with 2-3 years dedicated research time, so it is almost like an integrated post-doc within the fellowship. MD ~11 years & MD-PhD ~ 15 years. There are other research pathways such as Holman Pathway (rad onc & radiology).
PhD: Grad school (5)+Post-doc1(2-3) +? Post-doc2(2-3): ~10.

On top of any one of these paths, if you do manage to land an academic job as an assistant professor, you will typically hold this for ~5 years before you are up for a "guaranteed" job (tenured associate professor), and that is definitely not guaranteed.

Thanks for the data, that's really helpful. However, I was talking about having a guaranteed job, not necessarily tenured prof or whatever. If I have an MD, I pretty much know that I'll be able to get a job. Not so for PhD, considering the current unemployment stats.

 

[SynBio]

Ok, I was referring to this:

I would like to go into translational research. How likely is it that I would be able to make a research career with only an MD?

Tenured track jobs are about the only "guaranteed" research career job if research is your primary focus (over treating patients). I thought you were referring to research being the focus of your career. If not, than yeah, you can most likely find a job primarily being a physician, who does part time research on the side. If you don't want your own lab and research is not your primary focus, there are many options for getting involved in research.

 

[DrowningInWork]

Ok, I was referring to this:



Tenured track jobs are about the only "guaranteed" research career job if research is your primary focus (over treating patients). I thought you were referring to research being the focus of your career. If not, than yeah, you can most likely find a job primarily being a physician, who does part time research on the side. If you don't want your own lab and research is not your primary focus, there are many options for getting involved in research.

Yes. Ideally, I want research to be the focus of my career, but if it doesn't end up working out, I won't be completely screwed like a PhD would be.

 

[SynBio]

Is the extra four years the main reason you don't want to go into a MD-PhD program?

 

[DrowningInWork]

Mostly. There's also the huge disapproval I'd be getting from family members (my mother has explicitly banned me from applying MD/PhD), and although I could say f*** them and do it anyway, I'd rather not if there are other options. Whoo having super traditional Indian parents.

 

[SynBio]

There are many practical advantages to MD-PhD programs over other pathways that you can frame in an appealing way if it something you really would like to do. Have you expressed to them that you want a research career over a clinical career?

 

[Australopithekus]

This is true, but not by much

PhD: 42 y/o
MD: 44 y/o
MD-PhD: 43 y/o

per The Vanishing Physician-Scientist? So whatever training path you take, on average, you will get an R01 around the same time. Absolute number wise, PhDs get more R01 grants, but proportionally to the number of a particular group holding a degree(s), MD-PhDs are the most successful group.

Either way you go into science will take almost a decade and a half to get a "guaranteed" job (more likely longer).

MD: Medical school (4) + Residency (3-5) + Fellowship (2-3) + Post-doc (2-3) = ~13
MD-PhD: MD-PhD (8) + Residency (3-5) + Fellowship (2-3) + Post-doc (2-3) = ~17
A quick note: If someone was to do a research residency like the ABIM Research Track then the training would go down for both MD and MD-PhD, although MD-PhD would likely have more training in basic/translational science and be more competitive. For this track residency and fellowship are combined into 6-8 years, with 2-3 years dedicated research time, so it is almost like an integrated post-doc within the fellowship. MD ~11 years & MD-PhD ~ 15 years. There are other research pathways such as Holman Pathway (rad onc & radiology).
PhD: Grad school (5)+Post-doc1(2-3) +? Post-doc2(2-3): ~10.

On top of any one of these paths, if you do manage to land an academic job as an assistant professor, you will typically hold this for ~5 years before you are up for a "guaranteed" job (tenured associate professor), and that is definitely not guaranteed.

Interesting. I thought the numbers were a bit farther apart than that.

 

[Ms. Chanandler Bong]

I'm doing the Harvard/MIT HST program with exactly the same career plans in mind (MD primarily with research on the side). In my interviews, I was often asked "why not MD/PhD?" and just said that I wanted to primarily be a practicing physician with clinical research integrated into my career, not the other way around (as it often ends up with MD/PhDs). They can't fault you for being honest. Other programs worth looking into are MD/MSCR programs where you can get a master's in clinical research in about a year. I looked into Mount Sinai's, but there are others.

One of the labs I worked in was headed by a team (1 MD, 1 PhD) that both had clinical professorships and were doing quite well. You will be just fine if you want to go into research with just an MD.