Beat the stereotype!

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EChipouras

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Hi,

I was wondering if residents/attendings could give examples where the stereotype of 'diagnosing but not treating' falls short (or is blatantly wrong). I am very interested in the field, and want to try to get a better understanding of the stereotype and how much truth lies in it. I am very fascinated by Neuroscience (have a B.S. in Neuro), but the only thing holding me back is this. I love the puzzle of the diagnosis, but I also yearn to treat patients..help me out!

Also--maybe this could be a better way of assessing it--describe a day in your life as a resident..what did you do today?

Thanks!

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Hi,

I was wondering if residents/attendings could give examples where the stereotype of 'diagnosing but not treating' falls short (or is blatantly wrong). I am very interested in the field, and want to try to get a better understanding of the stereotype and how much truth lies in it. I am very fascinated by Neuroscience (have a B.S. in Neuro), but the only thing holding me back is this. I love the puzzle of the diagnosis, but I also yearn to treat patients..help me out!

Also--maybe this could be a better way of assessing it--describe a day in your life as a resident..what did you do today?

Thanks!

Most of medicine is the management of chronic diseases. In internal medicine, you don't "cure" your patient of diabetes, or CHF, or Crohns, or lupus, or COPD. You adjust therapy to the situation and handle acute exacerbations. Neurology is the same way. You can manage your patients with more chronic therapies for MS, myasthenia, headache, etc; then you deal with acute exacerbations as they arise. If you are looking for a field where you will "cure" someone, consider surgical specialties, interventional radiology or cardiology, or ID. If you want to see some quick fixes in Neuro, you will have plenty of strokes within the TPA window, thymus removals with good results (someone else performing them, of course), etc. If you just need to feel like you are acting and don't need that feeling of having "cured" something, again look into procedural fields or ER.
 
Thanks for your advice. I'll consider what you said.

I would also like to get an impression of the field by a current resident or attending--what is a typical (or atypical) day in your life?

Thanks!
 
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Most of medicine is the management of chronic diseases. In internal medicine, you don't "cure" your patient of diabetes, or CHF, or Crohns, or lupus, or COPD. You adjust therapy to the situation and handle acute exacerbations. Neurology is the same way. You can manage your patients with more chronic therapies for MS, myasthenia, headache, etc; then you deal with acute exacerbations as they arise. If you are looking for a field where you will "cure" someone, consider surgical specialties, interventional radiology or cardiology, or ID. If you want to see some quick fixes in Neuro, you will have plenty of strokes within the TPA window, thymus removals with good results (someone else performing them, of course), etc. If you just need to feel like you are acting and don't need that feeling of having "cured" something, again look into procedural fields or ER.


I have to admit that recently, I've had times where I question exactly how much of a difference I make in the care of patients I'm consulted on. The internists are very good about consulting me on every CVA/TIA case they admit, but by the time they've done that, they've already ordered the MRI brain with DWI, made appropriate antiplatelet selection, checked the carotids, ordered PT/OT/speech and TEEs where necessary, etc. And they're better than I could ever be at BP, glucose and lipid management. At best, I can possibly narrow down a more precise localization than they come up with (pre-MRI, of course), but that usually doesn't impact clinical decision making much. ER physicians are often quite comfortable with tPA administration, and are very competent at dealing with status epilepticus or seizure flurries. The more recent IM graduates are quite well-versed with the newer antiepileptic medications as well. Primary care teams manage migraines, peripheral neuropathy and "suspected seizure vs. syncope" quite well, and that covers the bulk of most of what neurologists regularly see.

A hospital couldn't function without cardiologists to perform the cardiac catheterizations and read the echocardiograms, or GI teams to perform the EGDs and the colonoscopies, or any of the surgical specialties, for that matter. But does a neurologist do a whole lot that the other specialties couldn't handle?

Don't get me wrong, I love and have always loved being a neurologist, and wouldn't choose another specialty if I had to do it all over again. But I can't really think of a single patient I've seen in the past month in whom I feel I made a huge difference. Maybe, and hopefully, it's just a matter of time until I do feel that way.
 
I have to admit that recently, I've had times where I question exactly how much of a difference I make in the care of patients I'm consulted on. The internists are very good about consulting me on every CVA/TIA case they admit, but by the time they've done that, they've already ordered the MRI brain with DWI, made appropriate antiplatelet selection, checked the carotids, ordered PT/OT/speech and TEEs where necessary, etc. And they're better than I could ever be at BP, glucose and lipid management. At best, I can possibly narrow down a more precise localization than they come up with (pre-MRI, of course), but that usually doesn't impact clinical decision making much. ER physicians are often quite comfortable with tPA administration, and are very competent at dealing with status epilepticus or seizure flurries. The more recent IM graduates are quite well-versed with the newer antiepileptic medications as well. Primary care teams manage migraines, peripheral neuropathy and "suspected seizure vs. syncope" quite well, and that covers the bulk of most of what neurologists regularly see.

A hospital couldn't function without cardiologists to perform the cardiac catheterizations and read the echocardiograms, or GI teams to perform the won't get me wrong, I love and have always loved being a neurologist, and wouldn't choose another specialty if I had to do it all over again. But I can't really think of a single patient I've seen in the past month in whom I feel I made a huge difference. Maybe, and hopefully, it's just a matter of time until I do feel that way.



I had an opportunity to work along side a few Neuro-intensivists in managing acute stroke cases, and I must say nothing was more rewarding that seeing patients with Grade 3/4 SAH regain the ability to coherently talk, walk, and interact with others... based primarily on the way we managed the patient.

This was more of the commonality than rarity--:)
 
I am glad the days of " Neurosurgeons turn people into vegetables and Neurologists just watch them grow" are over!!
 
I had an opportunity to work along side a few Neuro-intensivists in managing acute stroke cases, and I must say nothing was more rewarding that seeing patients with Grade 3/4 SAH regain the ability to coherently talk, walk, and interact with others... based primarily on the way we managed the patient.

This was more of the commonality than rarity--:)

Sorry for my ignorance...how do the intensivists differ from members of a "regular" stroke team?

I am questioning this myself lately...I keep seeing patients with recurrent stroke who are already on optimal medical management when they come in. Essentially the only change we make is raising their aspirin dose to 325 mg or something else relatively minor. The patient's family often seems disappointed that more can't be done, and I am too...and I even wonder what the real benefit was of the patient coming to the hospital in the first place (beyond the standard "monitoring," which of course is important if they get respiratory problems and need to be intubated, but that seems like about it).
 
I have to admit that recently, I've had times where I question exactly how much of a difference I make in the care of patients I'm consulted on. The internists are very good about consulting me on every CVA/TIA case they admit, but by the time they've done that, they've already ordered the MRI brain with DWI, made appropriate antiplatelet selection, checked the carotids, ordered PT/OT/speech and TEEs where necessary, etc. And they're better than I could ever be at BP, glucose and lipid management. At best, I can possibly narrow down a more precise localization than they come up with (pre-MRI, of course), but that usually doesn't impact clinical decision making much. ER physicians are often quite comfortable with tPA administration, and are very competent at dealing with status epilepticus or seizure flurries. The more recent IM graduates are quite well-versed with the newer antiepileptic medications as well. Primary care teams manage migraines, peripheral neuropathy and "suspected seizure vs. syncope" quite well, and that covers the bulk of most of what neurologists regularly see..

You must work in a pretty good hospital. Most hospitals I've worked in, the ER docs are either too afraid or unwilling to push tPA and, granted while in the US where you get the MRI before the patient his the ward, it kinda hurts your diagnostic role, I find that the biggest role for neurologists still remain in the diagnostic realm. The most rewarding encounters I've had were centered on making the diagnosis & on addressing the patient's concerns (in spite of presence of MRIs). Plus, you hit on an important point, I hate to see neurologists follow psychiatrist and become doctors that can't treat important conditions in their patients e.g. HTN, diabetes, hyperlipidaemia. Maybe it's the way we are trained in the US or the way we practice after residency. There is just as much of a reason for neurologists to be HTN, atheroma, pneumonia, pulmonary embolism/DVT, hyper/hypo-glycaemia & possibly diabetes experts as hospitalists or internists.

In one hospital, I saw a patient that was transferred from the neurology service to the medicine service because he developed a pulmonary embolism. In another hospital I worked in that wouldn't have happened. Personally I think the patient should have stayed on neuro & that the team should have been able/trained to deal with it. I know from a training point of view, it's important that the neuro team doesn't turn into a general medicine team but still it's important to be able to treat these complications at the very least for the patient's continuity of care.
 
I agree that if a neurologist is available, the ER always gets them on board and in the frontline when it comes to tPA administration, but when there isn't a neurologist around, the ER often does go ahead regardless. My point being, most of the time, the neurologist is only there for legal reasons, so their name can be on the chart in case something goes wrong. If guidelines are followed, I don't think neurologists are absolutely necessary, even in this most neurological of emergencies. Most critical care physicians can then manage acute stroke patients, post-tPA or not, fairly well, since the major issues are blood pressure and respiratory status anyway. The situation is different from, say, a cardiologist without whom an acute MI patient cannot be catheterized, or a neurosurgeon when a hemicraniectomy is needed.

You must work in a pretty good hospital. Most hospitals I've worked in, the ER docs are either too afraid or unwilling to push tPA and, granted while in the US where you get the MRI before the patient his the ward, it kinda hurts your diagnostic role, I find that the biggest role for neurologists still remain in the diagnostic realm. The most rewarding encounters I've had were centered on making the diagnosis & on addressing the patient's concerns (in spite of presence of MRIs). Plus, you hit on an important point, I hate to see neurologists follow psychiatrist and become doctors that can't treat important conditions in their patients e.g. HTN, diabetes, hyperlipidaemia. Maybe it's the way we are trained in the US or the way we practice after residency. There is just as much of a reason for neurologists to be HTN, atheroma, pneumonia, pulmonary embolism/DVT, hyper/hypo-glycaemia & possibly diabetes experts as hospitalists or internists.
 
This may be a bit oversimplified. For a hospital without any potential for catheter-based thrombolysis or clot-retrieval, then an ED physician can make the simple decision (with a radiologist) of whether or not a patient is a candidate for tPA, and in the community, they often do. Once you have additional potential therapeutics, it becomes far more complicated. Our hospital also has a tele-stroke system, where ED physicians from the community can "call in" to our hospital and speak to our stroke team, and we can examine the patient via video from across the state to make the decision on tPA.

While I agree that may uncomplicated strokes could be managed in any acute care setting, the problems arise when they become complicated. I also don't know any MICU nurses who could perform a neurologic nursing assessment as well as our neuroICU nurses do, and the nurses routinely catch new developments as they occur. Also, there is far more to neurocritical care than stroke. You could also make the argument that routine hypertensive ICH (which we manage) could be placed in any acute care setting, but these patients have already been proven to have improved mortality and morbidity in a dedicated neuroICU setting.
 
This may be a bit oversimplified. For a hospital without any potential for catheter-based thrombolysis or clot-retrieval, then an ED physician can make the simple decision (with a radiologist) of whether or not a patient is a candidate for tPA, and in the community, they often do. Once you have additional potential therapeutics, it becomes far more complicated. Our hospital also has a tele-stroke system, where ED physicians from the community can "call in" to our hospital and speak to our stroke team, and we can examine the patient via video from across the state to make the decision on tPA.

While I agree that may uncomplicated strokes could be managed in any acute care setting, the problems arise when they become complicated. I also don't know any MICU nurses who could perform a neurologic nursing assessment as well as our neuroICU nurses do, and the nurses routinely catch new developments as they occur. Also, there is far more to neurocritical care than stroke. You could also make the argument that routine hypertensive ICH (which we manage) could be placed in any acute care setting, but these patients have already been proven to have improved mortality and morbidity in a dedicated neuroICU setting.

Ideally, this is how it should work. However, due to a multitude of issues (some related to liability of doing tPA), the national statistics indicate very limited tPA usage across the USA. While I covered for my stroke collegues to go to their Stroke meeting, I did 3 cases of tPA in a week at a large tertiary hospitals.

Back to the original question on the board, I practice epilepsy. Often it is a chronic disease that you control with medications. Many of my patients are seizure-free, and in some, I can eventually take away medications. I can also do seizure surgery in specific cases and cure them from their condition. In general, specialists in the condition give better care for these patients by limiting adverse events, and preventing complications associated with long-term seizure treatment.
 
I don't understand why people are still debating the value of neurology.

First of all, I want to point out that diagnosis, in and of itself, is one of the most important functions of any doctor. If this was all that neurologists did, they would still be of great service to many patients who are often misdiagnosed and then incorrectly treated (e.g. the conversion d/o patient receiving tPA, or the patient with convulsive syncope being put on dilantin). Misdiagnosis by many studies occurs 15% of the time. I bet the incidence is far higher with neurological illnesses. Anyone in neurology knows that even if you were to get a whole spine and brain MRI in every patient with a central nervous system disorder, the diagnosis is still not apparent in a good proportion of them without a good neurologist involved.

Second, like any other specialist, neurologists help provide *optimal* treatment. The question is how good is this "optimal" treatment compared to the "sub-optimal" treatment from a generalist? There are provocative data in the stroke literature suggesting that morbidity is reduced significantly by putting patients onto a dedicated stroke service. Anecdoctally, I have seen many instances where the ED physician wants to or does not want to give tPA, and we neurologists end up deciding otherwise based on the NINDS criteria and clinical judgement. Applying NINDS criteria strictly is proven to improve outcomes. Outside of stroke, epilepsy treatment requires knowledge of the various epilepsies and anticonvulsants (e.g. a friend recently was correctly diagnosed with JME as opposed to simply "seizure disorder" and thereby put on treatment that completely stopped her seizures). Many more examples of this exist.

Third, deciding who and who does not get surgery for epilepsy, movement disorders, or stroke/ICH, requires not just a neurologist, but probably a sub-specialist within neurology. The literature carries reports and case series of patients being incorrectly referred for surgery primarily because a proper expert was not involved.

Fourth, neurointensive care is revolutionary. While they may not be the best general intensivists (although exceptions exist), treatment of SAH, TBI, status epilepticus, and GBS, among other illnesses, has revolutionized with the NICU. Studies suggest a 30% morbidity/mortality reduction with dedicated NICU's at certain institutions.

Fifth, necessary procedures that neurologists regularly perform include EEG, EMG/NCS, and intraoperative electrophysiology. Other studies such as evoked potentials, sleep studies, lumbar punctures, etc. are often best performed by neurologists. The usefulness of an EEG is obvious. The EMG/NCS is useful for diagnosis, so see my first comment.

Sixth, I would beg the question. Why have generalists when there are enough specialists to take care of each specific problem? An internist can manage diabetes, but an endocrinologist usually does so better. Similarly, an internist can work up a stroke, but a neurologist will usually do so better. They are more aware of the current literature and can catch rare findings more easily (e.g. we recently diagnosed a patient with FMD clinically leading us to send her for angio, confirming the diagnosis, and finally referring her for renal artery and peripheral artery imaging to treat her renal artery stenosis--previously missed by her internist.) Finally, the neurological exam, while obviously useful diagnostically, is perhaps even more useful in helping to follow the patient's progress over days, months, and years.

And finally, seventh, people regularly underestimate the value of neurologists and overestimate the value of other specialties due to historical and economic reasons. Neurology historically has been a slower specialty to progress, primarily due to the BBB, the rigid bony structures surrounding the central nervous system, and its vastly greater complexity compared to other organ systems. This is now changing, and over the next few decades the growth in neurology will make it as powerful as any of the "elite" medical specialties (e.g. cardiology, transplant surgery). I predict revolutions including immunotherapy for dementia, DBS for epilepsy, DBS for coma and possibly even TBI (which may also benefit from certain forms of immunotherapy!), and of course, my favorite, interventional means to treat stroke. Economically, the medical system has generally favored procedures and quantity over quality. This is now changing as people are realizing the importance of making the right diagnosis from the start, the importance of having an expert in making the right diagnosis, and the usefulness of longer more thorough clinic visits in avoiding further costly procedures. For now neurologists are relatively poor compared to other specialists, but this will likely change.

So the stereotype is far off the mark. In my opinion, the main thing propogating the stereotype is economics and the fact that the best medical students are swayed by the opportunity to make more money in other specialties.

B
 
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I don't understand why people are still debating the value of neurology.

First of all, I want to point out that diagnosis, in and of itself, is one of the most important functions of any doctor. If this was all that neurologists did, they would still be of great service to many patients who are often misdiagnosed and then incorrectly treated (e.g. the conversion d/o patient receiving tPA, or the patient with convulsive syncope being put on dilantin). Misdiagnosis by many studies occurs 15% of the time. I bet the incidence is far higher with neurological illnesses. Anyone in neurology knows that even if you were to get a whole spine and brain MRI in every patient with a central nervous system disorder, the diagnosis is still not apparent in a good proportion of them without a good neurologist involved.

Second, like any other specialist, neurologists help provide *optimal* treatment. The question is how good is this "optimal" treatment compared to the "sub-optimal" treatment from a generalist? There are provocative data in the stroke literature suggesting that morbidity is reduced significantly by putting patients onto a dedicated stroke service. Anecdoctally, I have seen many instances where the ED physician wants to or does not want to give tPA, and we neurologists end up deciding otherwise based on the NINDS criteria and clinical judgement. Applying NINDS criteria strictly is proven to improve outcomes. Outside of stroke, epilepsy treatment requires knowledge of the various epilepsies and anticonvulsants (e.g. a friend recently was correctly diagnosed with JME as opposed to simply "seizure disorder" and thereby put on treatment that completely stopped her seizures). Many more examples of this exist.

Third, deciding who and who does not get surgery for epilepsy, movement disorders, or stroke/ICH, requires not just a neurologist, but probably a sub-specialist within neurology. The literature carries reports and case series of patients being incorrectly referred for surgery primarily because a proper expert was not involved.

Fourth, neurointensive care is revolutionary. While they may not be the best general intensivists (although exceptions exist), treatment of SAH, TBI, status epilepticus, and GBS, among other illnesses, has revolutionized with the NICU. Studies suggest a 30% morbidity/mortality reduction with dedicated NICU's at certain institutions.

Fifth, necessary procedures that neurologists regularly perform include EEG, EMG/NCS, and intraoperative electrophysiology. Other studies such as evoked potentials, sleep studies, lumbar punctures, etc. are often best performed by neurologists. The usefulness of an EEG is obvious. The EMG/NCS is useful for diagnosis, so see my first comment.

Sixth, I would beg the question. Why have generalists when there are enough specialists to take care of each specific problem? An internist can manage diabetes, but an endocrinologist usually does so better. Similarly, an internist can work up a stroke, but a neurologist will usually do so better. They are more aware of the current literature and can catch rare findings more easily (e.g. we recently diagnosed a patient with FMD clinically leading us to send her for angio, confirming the diagnosis, and finally referring her for renal artery and peripheral artery imaging to treat her renal artery stenosis--previously missed by her internist.) Finally, the neurological exam, while obviously useful diagnostically, is perhaps even more useful in helping to follow the patient's progress over days, months, and years.

And finally, seventh, people regularly underestimate the value of neurologists and overestimate the value of other specialties due to historical and economic reasons. Neurology historically has been a slower specialty to progress, primarily due to the BBB, the rigid bony structures surrounding the central nervous system, and its vastly greater complexity compared to other organ systems. This is now changing, and over the next few decades the growth in neurology will make it as powerful as any of the "elite" medical specialties (e.g. cardiology, transplant surgery). I predict revolutions including immunotherapy for dementia, DBS for epilepsy, DBS for coma and possibly even TBI (which may also benefit from certain forms of immunotherapy!), and of course, my favorite, interventional means to treat stroke. Economically, the medical system has generally favored procedures and quantity over quality. This is now changing as people are realizing the importance of making the right diagnosis from the start, the importance of having an expert in making the right diagnosis, and the usefulness of longer more thorough clinic visits in avoiding further costly procedures. For now neurologists are relatively poor compared to other specialists, but this will likely change.

So the stereotype is far off the mark. In my opinion, the main thing propogating the stereotype is economics and the fact that the best medical students are swayed by the opportunity to make more money in other specialties.

B

Excellent.

Very well said.

But I have to add that there is money in neurology especially in Sleep, EMG/NCS, EEG, in some instance pain and Interventional Neurologists will eventually take over the field.

I would still prefer people to enter neurology because they simply love the field rather than how much money you can make.
 
Yeah Neurology seems like a great field to get into right now...

I'm only a lowly 1st yr but I cant help but think about the future of this field...on one side of the spectrum, you have behavioral neurology and neuropsychiatry (which is crossing the border b/w psych and neuro) as an up and coming field...on the other side, you have interventional neurology....I'll prob change my mind but I am def. leaning towards doing neuro as a residency since both of these fields appeal to me...
 
Neuro definitely in the future! Still somewhat torn between the thought of IM and Neuro. Just a lowly MS1 like the previous poster.
 
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