Become a Naturopathic Physician and Owe $499K

[Wjldenver]

These stories never cease to amaze me. What are these people thinking?

More student loan borrowers carry six-figure balances

The average college graduate leaves school $30,000 in the red today, up from $10,000 in the 1990s. Yet the share of borrowers with balances in the six-figures is on the rise.

www.cnbc.com

Then, we have some friends who just sent their daughter to Curtin University in Australia to get a MS Degree in Sexuality. Since she is a US citizen, she does not qualify for any student loans at Curtin, so our friends are paying for it out-of-pocket ($50K per year).

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[Sardonix]

Knew it would be Bastyr University. If you want a good laugh go look at their Wikipedia page. If you want an even better laugh, go look at the edit history battles they've had.

 

[EmilKraepelin55]

Just goes to show how much of a scam naturopathy really is, in every aspect you can imagine. This is an example of how much wishful thinking can drive a person to the impractical and unintelligible.

 

[shadowlightfox]

Holy crap you weren't kidding about having a good laugh!

I love how in that wikipedia page, half the notable alumni of Bastyr college is either openly labelled as fraud, or a critic of naturopathy.

 

[Sardonix]

Holy crap you weren't kidding about having a good laugh!

I love how in that wikipedia page, half the notable alumni of Bastyr college is either openly labelled as fraud, or a critic of naturopathy.

Best part is there is a Bastyr PR rep "asking to start a dialogue" in the edit comments and they just get a new orifice torn open each time they post.

 

[Goro]

These stories never cease to amaze me. What are these people thinking?

More student loan borrowers carry six-figure balances

The average college graduate leaves school $30,000 in the red today, up from $10,000 in the 1990s. Yet the share of borrowers with balances in the six-figures is on the rise.

www.cnbc.com

Then, we have some friends who just sent their daughter to Curtin University in Australia to get a MS Degree in Sexuality. Since she is a US citizen, she does not qualify for any student loans at Curtin, so our friends are paying for it out-of-pocket ($50K per year).

Geez, monster.com must be filled with classified ads for jobs in sexuality.

/sarcasm

 

[Wjldenver]

Geez, monster.com must be filled with classified ads for jobs in sexuality.

/sarcasm

Never a dull moment when we look at some of the questionable degrees our friends pay for. (And most of them work in the healthcare industry, so you would think that they have a clue.) ...There's art school, film school, acting/drama school, and of course the MS degree in Sexuality. But, they told us that their daughter's passion is to be a sex therapist like Dr Ruth, so it's their $ I guess.

 

[Colbare]

Not physicians

 

[RaidenXVC]

Not physicians

No no, those initials are N.P.

You’re thinking of not a doctor, N.D.

 

[Schwifty]

Holy crap you weren't kidding about having a good laugh!

I love how in that wikipedia page, half the notable alumni of Bastyr college is either openly labelled as fraud, or a critic of naturopathy.

I second this, the wiki was a great read. It's always a good sign when your graduates are publicly criticizing the school and profession.

 

[RNthenDoc]

Lol those silly NDs and their unfounded practices.

They all just need their Chapman’s Points evaluated.

 

[Ho0v-man]

Lol those silly NDs and their unfounded practices.

They all just need their Chapman’s Points evaluated.

Clearly their cranial bones are externally rotated.

 

[sophieea]

Take a look at the Instagram profiles of naturopath medstudents though... But kind of bummed mds/dos dont have any job potential after graduation. Naturopaths dont even need a residency , 4 years and they have a job.

 

[RNthenDoc]

Take a look at the Instagram profiles of naturopath medstudents though...

I did so, and boy was that a mistake

 

[Sardonix]

Take a look at the Instagram profiles of naturopath medstudents though... But kind of bummed mds/dos dont have any job potential after graduation. Naturopaths dont even need a residency , 4 years and they have a job.

That, aside from EBM practices, is what separates us from them though...

Guarantee you except for a hand full they're not making bank either.

 

[pseud0]

I'm triggered right now.

"Bastyr naturopathic students take classes with the same names as medical school courses, but pseudoscience and nonsensical information is integrated into every course."

 

[Allosteopath]

We need an ND vs Caribbean MD thread...

 

[tradersluck]

We need an ND vs Caribbean MD thread...

Hey my initials are ND. That means I can be both, right? MOM! MOM!!!!

 

[Aslanim]

Hey my initials are ND. That means I can be both, right? MOM! MOM!!!!

Of course, of course honey.

 

[DrRedstone]

Hey my initials are ND. That means I can be both, right? MOM! MOM!!!!

I know a guy who's initials are MD, so he can be MD, DO. AT Still be praised.

 

[deleted998607]

But kind of bummed mds/dos dont have any job potential after graduation. Naturopaths dont even need a residency , 4 years and they have a job.

At least we have self-respect, dignity, and the scientific method to fall back on...

 

[wonko]

Take a look at the Instagram profiles of naturopath medstudents though... But kind of bummed mds/dos dont have any job potential after graduation. Naturopaths dont even need a residency , 4 years and they have a job.

Just did it. Bunch of above average to hot chicks, mostly doing yoga scantily glad. Not gonna lie, one of the better instagram search I did.

 

[Kardio]

Just did it. Bunch of above average to hot chicks, mostly doing yoga scantily glad. Not gonna lie, one of the better instagram search I did.

Can confirm this observation. It was weird seeing some hot chick my age posting about how they have a product that cures cancer and HIV - and getting >1,000 likes and no backlash.

 

[wonko]

Thanks for having the courage to post this.

I want to point out that its one of the better ones because my instagram search history is probably one of the more embarassing parts of my online-life. Now it actually makes me sad to think that #naturopathicstudents is one of the better ones.

 

[Isoval]

Clearly their cranial bones are externally rotated.

Don't breathe too hard, kids.

 

[Deecee2DO]

Curious to know how difficult ND school is compared to MD/DO lol

 

[DO2015CA]

Curious to know how difficult ND school is compared to MD/DO lol

ZDoggMD recently did a 45-60min interview with an ex-ND that went back and finished a MS and looking to complete a PhD. She practiced for three year before the veil was lifted when that happened she went back to study science and the masters courses wouldn't accept her ND courses that had the same name. At the time she stated she was mad because she had been "doing Doctoral level courses". Once she started taking the masters classes, she feel extremely ill prepared, lifting the veil even more. She said that after taking the masters courses, she feels that her ND courses were maybe bachelors level. Mainly memorization without understanding. The school she attended? Bastyr University.

Start watching at 15 mins in

 

[Osminog]

Curious to know how difficult ND school is compared to MD/DO lol

The most difficult part of ND school is working at Starbucks for 30 years after graduation in order to pay off your debt to Bastyrd University, all because you spent four years memorizing the names of different herbs and leaves that strictly work as placebos.

 

[Deecee2DO]

ZDoggMD recently did a 45-60min interview with an ex-ND that went back and finished a MS and looking to complete a PhD. She practiced for three year before the veil was lifted when that happened she went back to study science and the masters courses wouldn't accept her ND courses that had the same name. At the time she stated she was mad because she had been "doing Doctoral level courses". Once she started taking the masters classes, she feel extremely ill prepared, lifting the veil even more. She said that after taking the masters courses, she feels that her ND courses were maybe bachelors level. Mainly memorization without understanding. The school she attended? Bastyr University.

Start watching at 15 mins in

Unreal lmao

 

[Sardonix]

Curious to know how difficult ND school is compared to MD/DO lol

Given that they take anywhere from 4-6 classes in HOMEOPATHY I don't think there's a way to compare.

I mean, is it hard to study fictional details and "theory" in a "rigorous" academic setting? Who's to say.

 

[TheGoodDoc83]

I considered going into naturopathy at one point, but I recently settled on P.A. There's no doubt that I do find a lot of value in natural cures because they definitely are out there. A lot of people who knock naturopathy and call it "quackery" seem to forget how penicillin was discovered (the first NATURALLY occurring antibiotic), so we can instantly label those people as bona fide hypocrites, no question about it. They are indisputable, unequivocal hypocrites. But I digress on that...

Physician assistant school makes a lot more sense than naturopathy for a couple of reasons: 1) ND school is 4 years, P.A. is 2 years. 2) P.A. tuition is cheaper in the long run. 3) Starting salary for P.A. is half that of an allopathic physician, so you're looking at $100 to $150K starting out. ND averages $80 to $90K starting, if lucky. 4) Physician assistant jobs are BOOMING. All you have to do is put in a job search on Indeed and you'll see tons of P.A. openings. When you put in "naturopathy" or "naturopathic," you get zilch. and 5) The chances of you finding a P.A. job that qualifies for the Public Service Loan Forgiveness program is extremely high.

So for the above reasons, which are exceptionally practical and founded on common rational sense, physician assistant school beats ND school to a bloody pulp.

 

[DO2015CA]

I considered going into naturopathy at one point, but I recently settled on P.A. There's no doubt that I do find a lot of value in natural cures because they definitely are out there. A lot of people who knock naturopathy and call it "quackery" seem to forget how penicillin was discovered (the first NATURALLY occurring antibiotic), so we can instantly label those people as bona fide hypocrites, no question about it. They are indisputable, unequivocal hypocrites. But I digress on that...

Physician assistant school makes a lot more sense than naturopathy for a couple of reasons: 1) ND school is 4 years, P.A. is 2 years. 2) P.A. tuition is cheaper in the long run. 3) Starting salary for P.A. is half that of an allopathic physician, so you're looking at $100 to $150K starting out. ND averages $80 to $90K starting, if lucky. 4) Physician assistant jobs are BOOMING. All you have to do is put in a job search on Indeed and you'll see tons of P.A. openings. When you put in "naturopathy" or "naturopathic," you get zilch. and 5) The chances of you finding a P.A. job that qualifies for the Public Service Loan Forgiveness program is extremely high.

So for the above reasons, which are exceptionally practical and founded on common rational sense, physician assistant school beats ND school to a bloody pulp.

PA wins because it actually does something for the patient other than selling them snake oil

 

[sundevilnontrad]

Curious to know how difficult ND school is compared to MD/DO lol

I met a girl during undergrad who was in an ND program, she was working 30+ hours a week at a job, and went to class once or twice a week sometimes, and had no complaints about the difficulty. So, that should tell you...how "difficult" it is. She had a degree in nutrition or something, and just "applied" to ND school, and they accept you no questions asked basically.

 

[Sephirakra]

A lot of people who knock naturopathy and call it "quackery" seem to forget how penicillin was discovered (the first NATURALLY occurring antibiotic), so we can instantly label those people as bona fide hypocrites, no question about it. They are indisputable, unequivocal hypocrites. But I digress on that...

Please, digress. I'd love to know where this is going.

 

[EmilKraepelin55]

I considered going into naturopathy at one point, but I recently settled on P.A. There's no doubt that I do find a lot of value in natural cures because they definitely are out there. A lot of people who knock naturopathy and call it "quackery" seem to forget how penicillin was discovered (the first NATURALLY occurring antibiotic), so we can instantly label those people as bona fide hypocrites, no question about it. They are indisputable, unequivocal hypocrites. But I digress on that...

Physician assistant school makes a lot more sense than naturopathy for a couple of reasons: 1) ND school is 4 years, P.A. is 2 years. 2) P.A. tuition is cheaper in the long run. 3) Starting salary for P.A. is half that of an allopathic physician, so you're looking at $100 to $150K starting out. ND averages $80 to $90K starting, if lucky. 4) Physician assistant jobs are BOOMING. All you have to do is put in a job search on Indeed and you'll see tons of P.A. openings. When you put in "naturopathy" or "naturopathic," you get zilch. and 5) The chances of you finding a P.A. job that qualifies for the Public Service Loan Forgiveness program is extremely high.

So for the above reasons, which are exceptionally practical and founded on common rational sense, physician assistant school beats ND school to a bloody pulp.

Not sure why this is such a difficult concept to understand for naturopath apologists, but there are a million naturally occurring drugs that have been discovered to be effective not based on unfounded assertions but through scientific investigation and peer review. Once efficacy is established and the drug is deemed safe for medical practice, it becomes mainstream medicine. Naturopathy skips the rigor and heads straight for the jugular because of “anecdotal” experiences that do not qualify as research. There literally is no room in medicine for the wishful thinking present in naturopathy because science is a thousand steps ahead of the curve. The problem is when naturopaths assert efficacy and possible curative effects without scientific rigor to back up their claims, and then sell that ideology to the most gullible and vulnerable in society. I literally have no respect for such a profession, for it spits in the face of the scientific advancements made over the past century and a half in favor of outdated and down right hokey alternatives to treatment. For example, how can anyone take homeopathy seriously after even a high school introductory chemistry class? Seriously....be VERY glad you chose PA not just for it’s practicality but for the fact that you will actually help your patients without providing some false sense of hope.

 

[BorntobeDO?]

No no, those initials are N.P.

You’re thinking of not a doctor, N.D.

How did I miss this gem? Fantastic.

 

[BorntobeDO?]

I considered going into naturopathy at one point, but I recently settled on P.A. There's no doubt that I do find a lot of value in natural cures because they definitely are out there. A lot of people who knock naturopathy and call it "quackery" seem to forget how penicillin was discovered (the first NATURALLY occurring antibiotic), so we can instantly label those people as bona fide hypocrites, no question about it. They are indisputable, unequivocal hypocrites. But I digress on that...

Physician assistant school makes a lot more sense than naturopathy for a couple of reasons: 1) ND school is 4 years, P.A. is 2 years. 2) P.A. tuition is cheaper in the long run. 3) Starting salary for P.A. is half that of an allopathic physician, so you're looking at $100 to $150K starting out. ND averages $80 to $90K starting, if lucky. 4) Physician assistant jobs are BOOMING. All you have to do is put in a job search on Indeed and you'll see tons of P.A. openings. When you put in "naturopathy" or "naturopathic," you get zilch. and 5) The chances of you finding a P.A. job that qualifies for the Public Service Loan Forgiveness program is extremely high.

So for the above reasons, which are exceptionally practical and founded on common rational sense, physician assistant school beats ND school to a bloody pulp.

Whelp buddy, you made the right choice for the wrong reasons, but hey, we all need luck sometimes. I talked a student out of his acceptance to ND school when I was a premed and hes a 4th year DO now. I consider that one my better contributions towards society and of course that student also.

 

[BorntobeDO?]

I met a girl during undergrad who was in an ND program, she was working 30+ hours a week at a job, and went to class once or twice a week sometimes, and had no complaints about the difficulty. So, that should tell you...how "difficult" it is. She had a degree in nutrition or something, and just "applied" to ND school, and they accept you no questions asked basically.

So it depends on the ND school, but yeah this is a thing in many of them. The degree is meaningless so the training isn't standardized at all.

 

[TheGoodDoc83]

Whelp buddy, you made the right choice for the wrong reasons, but hey, we all need luck sometimes. I talked a student out of his acceptance to ND school when I was a premed and hes a 4th year DO now. I consider that one my better contributions towards society and of course that student also.

Right choice for the wrong reasons? Yeah, ok.... Keep in mind these are practical reasons, not philosophical, social, etc. reasons (which I have). This thread doesn't seem like the place to provide any of those due to all the profession-bashing going on. Also, what does luck have to do with it? Really irrational statement.

 

[Sephirakra]

Right choice for the wrong reasons? Yeah, ok.... Keep in mind these are practical reasons, not philosophical, social, etc. reasons (which I have). This thread doesn't seem like the place to provide any of those due to all the profession-bashing going on. Also, what does luck have to do with it? Really irrational statement.

Charlatanism isn't a profession.

 

[nimbus]

Naturopathy is more of a religious belief system than a science. This is fine. Some of the remedies may even help. Many people pray and give millions of dollars to religious organizations too without much evidence for efficacy. Just like religion, it meets a need for both practitioners and patients.

 

[Schwifty]

Just curious..has anybody here actually gone to a N.D., witnessed first-hand what it's about, got a remedy from a N.D., etc.? If not, then you absolutely should not criticize it. It's like running your mouth at something you know nothing about. I'm not a N.D., nor do I have any interest in becoming one; it's just that it's so disgraceful to hear people bashing somebody else's livelihood. And let me tell ya...if this was being debated in person with me, at least one person here would not have a face left. Don't speak if you have no experience of something.

Have I been to a ND? Nope, but I've never been to a psychic palm reader either and I can still call BS on that.

 

[Shuazaki]

Just curious..has anybody here actually gone to a N.D., witnessed first-hand what it's about, got a remedy from a N.D., etc.? If not, then you absolutely should not criticize it. It's like running your mouth at something you know nothing about. I'm not a N.D., nor do I have any interest in becoming one; it's just that it's so disgraceful to hear people bashing somebody else's livelihood. And let me tell ya...if this was being debated in person with me, at least one person here would not have a face left. Don't speak if you have no experience of something.

Just a counter point, I've never had homeopathic treatment either, but it should be obvious to anyone that 99.99999% pure water does not have memory or the ability to cure disease (other than dehydration). I also would be pretty confident in telling any homeopathic "physician" that in person.

Anything claiming to be science should be able to be critiqued without anecdotal experience, especially when dealing with people's health. If it can't, it probably should not be practiced.

 

[Sardonix]

I considered going into naturopathy at one point, but I recently settled on P.A. There's no doubt that I do find a lot of value in natural cures because they definitely are out there. A lot of people who knock naturopathy and call it "quackery" seem to forget how penicillin was discovered (the first NATURALLY occurring antibiotic), so we can instantly label those people as bona fide hypocrites, no question about it. They are indisputable, unequivocal hypocrites. But I digress on that...

You know what they call natural medicine that works?

Medicine. They call it medicine.

 

[DO2015CA]

Whelp buddy, you made the right choice for the wrong reasons, but hey, we all need luck sometimes. I talked a student out of his acceptance to ND school when I was a premed and hes a 4th year DO now. I consider that one my better contributions towards society and of course that student also.

You are a good soul. I honestly would’ve let them jump into that traffic jam. If they don’t have my bloodline then idc if they ruin their life. There’s gotta be suckers

Right choice for the wrong reasons? Yeah, ok.... Keep in mind these are practical reasons, not philosophical, social, etc. reasons (which I have). This thread doesn't seem like the place to provide any of those due to all the profession-bashing going on. Also, what does luck have to do with it? Really irrational statement.

Luck has to do with you avoided essentially ruining your financial future due to external factors not the fact you didn’t see through the horse **** that is naturopathy...

Just curious..has anybody here actually gone to a N.D., witnessed first-hand what it's about, got a remedy from a N.D., etc.? If not, then you absolutely should not criticize it. It's like running your mouth at something you know nothing about. I'm not a N.D., nor do I have any interest in becoming one; it's just that it's so disgraceful to hear people bashing somebody else's livelihood. And let me tell ya...if this was being debated in person with me, at least one person here would not have a face left. Don't speak if you have no experience of something.

to answer your question yes I have seen it. No I did not go myself. I dated a girl in college that asked me if I wanted to go to the doctor with her. It was the craziest encounter I had ever witnessed. Needless to say we broke up shortly afterward, unrelated reasons . The funny thing is the ND found out I was premed during the visit and tried to persuade me to go to ND school because she was some born again RN that found real medicine.


And you are a real tough guy if you are talking abut “one of us wouldn’t have a face”. Really Speaks to your ability to be a professional in any career. You will meet plenty of people that disagree with you in your lifetime. Best to not get all riled up

 

[Neopolymath]

Just curious..has anybody here actually gone to a N.D., witnessed first-hand what it's about, got a remedy from a N.D., etc.? If not, then you absolutely should not criticize it. It's like running your mouth at something you know nothing about. I'm not a N.D., nor do I have any interest in becoming one; it's just that it's so disgraceful to hear people bashing somebody else's livelihood. And let me tell ya...if this was being debated in person with me, at least one person here would not have a face left. Don't speak if you have no experience of something.

Would you find it acceptable for me to bash fraudsters or con artists? Oh wait...

 

[nimbus]

You are a good soul. I honestly would’ve let them jump into that traffic jam. If they don’t have my bloodline then idc if they ruin their life. There’s gotta be suckers



Luck has to do with you avoided essentially ruining your financial future due to external factors not the fact you didn’t see through the horse **** that is naturopathy...



to answer your question yes I have seen it. No I did not go myself. I dated a girl in college that asked me if I wanted to go to the doctor with her. It was the craziest encounter I had ever witnessed. Needless to say we broke up shortly afterward, unrelated reasons . The funny thing is the ND found out I was premed during the visit and tried to persuade me to go to ND school because she was some born again RN that found real medicine.


And you are a real tough guy if you are talking abut “one of us wouldn’t have a face”. Really Speaks to your ability to be a professional in any career. You will meet plenty of people that disagree with you in your lifetime. Best to not get all riled up

I had a very similar experience with a woman I was dating. Needless to say it did not last.

 

[BorntobeDO?]

Right choice for the wrong reasons? Yeah, ok.... Keep in mind these are practical reasons, not philosophical, social, etc. reasons (which I have). This thread doesn't seem like the place to provide any of those due to all the profession-bashing going on. Also, what does luck have to do with it? Really irrational statement.

Your lucky that your ability to identify job markets is better than your ability to identify effective treatments. The fact that you are still defending ND's already shows an amazing lack of judgement/insight. You almost messed up a 'no-brainer' decision, if society hadn't told you that an ND is incredibly dumb (i.e. through the job market) you would have made the wrong choice. That's pretty much the definition of luck.

 

[BorntobeDO?]

You are a good soul. I honestly would’ve let them jump into that traffic jam. If they don’t have my bloodline then idc if they ruin their life. There’s gotta be suckers



Luck has to do with you avoided essentially ruining your financial future due to external factors not the fact you didn’t see through the horse **** that is naturopathy...



to answer your question yes I have seen it. No I did not go myself. I dated a girl in college that asked me if I wanted to go to the doctor with her. It was the craziest encounter I had ever witnessed. Needless to say we broke up shortly afterward, unrelated reasons . The funny thing is the ND found out I was premed during the visit and tried to persuade me to go to ND school because she was some born again RN that found real medicine.


And you are a real tough guy if you are talking abut “one of us wouldn’t have a face”. Really Speaks to your ability to be a professional in any career. You will meet plenty of people that disagree with you in your lifetime. Best to not get all riled up

Admittedly I did talk him into by reminding him of the actual scope of practice a DO has, and mentioning that his soon newborn might want daddy to practice in the same state as grandma (ND's only have practice rights in Arizona, which is still one state too many). I also showed him the DO philosophy stuff that every other profession likes to steal (i.e. treating the whole patient). It was a long process, but he was my friend and I didn't have it in me to let him goto Bastyr and ruin his life.

Also thanks for the succinct statement of why it was luck, I think you described it much better than I did.

 

[wxman]

Interesting read

10 Common Myths About Naturopathic Medicine | AANMC

Despite its popularity, there are still many myths about naturopathic medicine. Know the facts and fiction on naturopathic medicine.

aanmc.org