Becoming a reapplicant with one acceptance in hand

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Think deeply about why you want to become a doctor and hopefully becoming extremely wealthy isn't high up there, because with debt of that level you won't be for quite some time even after completing residency. If there truly is another reason you will be fine, you will pay off your debt in 5-10 years (maybe quicker if you work in a rural area) and be on track to financial freedom alongside a job you like. good luck =)
 
I know a guy who did something like this and was very successful. However, the main change he made was applying much earlier, so the first time around I'm guessing that was his main disadvantage rather than an issue with the content of his app.

If it makes you feel any better I'm currently in waitlist hell for my hometown med school so you're not suffering alone.
 
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First off, very few people can actually *afford* medical school. That's why everyone comes out with some amount of debt. Footing the whole bill is a lot of debt, but having an acceptance in hand is worth a lot more. If you become a reapplicant there is no guarantee and in fact likely a very large chance you will not get into medical school again.

If you want to be a doctor, take out the loans.
 
Do you like the IS school that much more? Enough to reject an acceptance? That would be hard for anyone. Only a few medical students don't graduate in debt. Even if you get a rejection report, there is no guarantee that you'll get in next cycle. I personally do not think it's smart to reject an acceptance, especially from a U.S. MD school.
 
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gonnif said:
It is not simply foolish but foolhardy. Most medical schools will red flag as probable immediate reject any reapplicant who has previously been accepted at a US MD school and turn it down. How they will know this is each and every acceptance is tracked via AMCAS ID and each school now uses AMCAS compliant system that will automatically flag your reapp. there have been tons of threads written on this, though you are the first this year. Just make sure I am clear

Turning down an acceptance with the idea to reapply next year is, in my view, the worst possible mistake a premed can make. Doing so will likely reduce your chances of ever becoming a doctor by 10 fold at minimum.

forums.studentdoctor.net/threads/to-matriculate-or-not-to-matriculate-that-is-the-question.1192428/
http://forums.studentdoctor.net/thr...hool-should-i-re-apply.1181174/#post-17361528
http://forums.studentdoctor.net/threads/should-i-decline-my-acceptance-too-much-in-loans.1132398/
forums.studentdoctor.net/threads/accepted-but-not-at-favorite-school-should-i-re-apply.1181174
http://forums.studentdoctor.net/threads/reapplying-after-acceptance.1125035/
http://forums.studentdoctor.net/threads/accepted-but-declining-good-or-bad-help.1133435/
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Huh I never knew they kept track of such things
 
Okay, let's look at it this way...if you turn it down and delay a year, you will be missing out on 1 year of Dr salary of approx $200-250K. Is your school really MORE than $200-250K difference than most other schools? By delaying a year, it will likely end up costing your more in the long run. Not to mention you have no idea if you will even be accepted if you reapply. Don't do it! Take your acceptance and run!
 
gonnif said:
It is not simply foolish but foolhardy. Most medical schools will red flag as probable immediate reject any reapplicant who has previously been accepted at a US MD school and turn it down. How they will know this is each and every acceptance is tracked via AMCAS ID and each school now uses AMCAS compliant system that will automatically flag your reapp. there have been tons of threads written on this, though you are the first this year. Just make sure I am clear

Turning down an acceptance with the idea to reapply next year is, in my view, the worst possible mistake a premed can make. Doing so will likely reduce your chances of ever becoming a doctor by 10 fold at minimum.

forums.studentdoctor.net/threads/to-matriculate-or-not-to-matriculate-that-is-the-question.1192428/
http://forums.studentdoctor.net/thr...hool-should-i-re-apply.1181174/#post-17361528
http://forums.studentdoctor.net/threads/should-i-decline-my-acceptance-too-much-in-loans.1132398/
forums.studentdoctor.net/threads/accepted-but-not-at-favorite-school-should-i-re-apply.1181174
http://forums.studentdoctor.net/threads/reapplying-after-acceptance.1125035/
http://forums.studentdoctor.net/threads/accepted-but-declining-good-or-bad-help.1133435/
Click to expand...

so if i understand this correctly, it'd be okay to turn down DO acceptances to reapply MD? because DO acceptances aren't tracked via AMCAS ID, and DO schools don't use an AMCAS compliant system? not that i would recommend doing that but just trying to understand the workflow
 
BTW the little status on the sidebar underneath your username just gave me tachycardia and tachypnea @gonnif

I haven't thought of it in those terms yet lol
 
gonnif said:
They do so at the very least to track deferred applicants who must resubmit AMCAS for matriculation
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Oh I also never knew deferred students had to resubmit AMCAS. It seems kind of a waste of paperwork and manpower.
 
gonnif said:
How do you track acceptances versus matriculation without it? From an aggregate level, we need it. The system is setup to make sure medical schools fill their seats and train physicians; applicants are merely the fodder
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Oh yeah good point. I guess thinking about how we are just fodder elucidates this whole process.
 
Toutie said:
Okay, let's look at it this way...if you turn it down and delay a year, you will be missing out on 1 year of Dr salary of approx $200-250K. Is your school really MORE than $200-250K difference than most other schools? By delaying a year, it will likely end up costing your more in the long run. Not to mention you have no idea if you will even be accepted if you reapply. Don't do it! Take your acceptance and run!
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It's not that simple. Loans accrue interest. You pay taxes on salary.

In-state school + living at home - I'll assume is ~30k in loans a year.
Out of state school + living expenses - I'll assume he takes out ~65k in loans a year.

30k each year for 4 years followed by a 3 year residency @ 7% is $166,200
65k each year for 4 years followed by a 3 year residency @ 7% is $360,100

Difference is $193,900.

So he'd need to make about $275,000 before taxes to break even....and that assumes no income in the gap year.

But yeah the whole "getting in next year" is the real gamble.
 
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Give up the acceptance and you will never be a doctor. You can afford to take out loans

anonymous999 said:
Hi all,

I recreated a new username in order to maintain some more anonymity (creative username right?).

Anyway, wanted to gauge some opinions on what they think about reapplying while having one MD acceptance already. First off, let me admit my mistake by applying to schools that I am unable to afford. Please do not take this as a sign of not truly wanting to become an MD. Money is an extremely important consideration given my background. While the financial aid situation isn't entirely clear, I'm looking at tuition rates of 50k+ per year. Of course, financial aid in loans is possible but the school doesn't offer much merit aid from what I've gleaned so far.

I'm still waiting to hear back post-II from my IS school, which is not only in the near vicinity, but has a tuition rate at about a rate of ~20k per year while also affording me the option of living at home. If I do end up getting rejected, I know they provide admissions counseling with IS re apps having some success. The school seemed more research focused, which was an attractive fit to me as well.

You might wonder why I'm posting this now without having heard back from IS school yet, and the reason is so that I can move forward by strengthening experiences in personally perceived weaker areas to prepare for a reapplication. As an older prospective student, I'd like to continue school this fall but the prospect of so much debt is daunting.

Is it foolish to become a reapplicant and wait a year for something not guaranteed but with the ability to graduate with less than half of the debt at my IS school?
Click to expand...
 
gonnif said:
Turning down an acceptance with the idea to reapply next year is, in my view, the worst possible mistake a premed can make. Doing so will likely reduce your chances of ever becoming a doctor by 10 fold at minimum.
Click to expand...

I've heard from numerous sources that this is absolutely true. Does anyone else think this is kind of harsh though? I understand the logic behind it; they essentially think if you turned down an acceptance at another school then you might do the same to them, but the fact that you're blackballed from every school if you apply again just really sucks.

I know that as pre-meds we are suppose to not apply to schools we wouldn't attend if accepted to, but most of us are also quite neurotic and at the beginning of the cycle might just add in more schools because you just desperately want to get in somewhere.

So what happens if a school looks great on paper but you go to the interview and have a terrible experience? Or a family member unexpectedly becomes ill and maybe you no longer want to move across the country? The application cycle is basically a year long process, so many things can change in a year.

Knowing this though, I'm going to make sure I immediately withdraw from any schools that I decide post interview that I would not attend even if it were my only acceptance.
 
cbrons said:
Easily one of the dumbest yet most American statements I've ever heard. Getting deep in debt is literally the definition of throwing away your future.

Sent from my SM-N910P using SDN mobile
Click to expand...

Are you insinuating that every medical student on this forum who lacks a rich daddy to foot the bill is throwing away their future? Lol not sure if I follow...
 
Take the acceptance. Join the military as a doc if money is such an obstacle for you.
 
You can live cheaply as a med student. I share an apartment, make my own meals, drive a beater. I chose a private MD over my state school and don't regret it.
 
cbrons said:
Easily one of the dumbest yet most American statements I've ever heard. Getting deep in debt is literally the definition of throwing away your future.

Sent from my SM-N910P using SDN mobile
Click to expand...

American, sure. But, this is how our system is setup. Therefore, given the context it is hardly 'dumb'.
 
cbrons said:
Easily one of the dumbest yet most American statements I've ever heard. Getting deep in debt is literally the definition of throwing away your future.

Sent from my SM-N910P using SDN mobile
Click to expand...

There is good debt and bad debt. Borrowing to buy a home is good debt and almost every home owner in America started out by borrowing to purchase a first home. Likewise, borrowing to attend professional school where the likelihood is high that your salary after graduation will make it possible to pay off the debt, is good debt. Borrowing to attend a for-profit trade school or a off shore med school, maybe not so good.

Buying consumer products (home furnishings, clothing), restaurant meals and leisure travel with credit cards that you don't pay off every month is not smart. Getting deep in debt in that way is throwing away your future. Borrowing to cover modest living expenses while continuing your education with the prospect of a well paying job after graduation is not the same thing.
 
anonymous999 said:
...I'm looking at tuition rates of 50k+ per year. ...
I'm still waiting to hear back post-II from my IS school, which is not only in the near vicinity, but has a tuition rate at about a rate of ~20k per year while also affording me the option of living at home. ...
Is it foolish to become a reapplicant and wait a year for something not guaranteed but with the ability to graduate with less than half of the debt at my IS school?
Click to expand...
Have you tried looking at the total cost of attendance? I had the same sort of pause when deciding between a school that was 57k/yr tuition and one that was 23k/yr. But after after adding up the total COA for each, the difference only came to ~7k more per year for the "expensive" school. Now, I didn't have the living at home option (not that I would want it at this point in my life), so I would expect the difference to be somewhat greater for you, but it's probably not as much as you think. State schools can have a lot of fees that they don't advertise beforehand.

Also, as everyone has already said, the bird in the hand is the one you should go with. If you happen to get off the waitlist for your local school, great. If you don't, then attend the one you're accepted to. It may well be the only opportunity you get, so don't throw it away.
 
Lollygag said:
I've heard from numerous sources that this is absolutely true. Does anyone else think this is kind of harsh though? I understand the logic behind it; they essentially think if you turned down an acceptance at another school then you might do the same to them, but the fact that you're blackballed from every school if you apply again just really sucks.
Click to expand...

The way it's often presented here, yeah it sounds harsh. But I think it's a little less terrible in reality. There are reapplicants who previously turned down offers who get into schools again every year. It's a bad idea for sure. I think SDNers just get a bit overzealous with their statements, either because they're neurotic or because they'd rather beat it into your head and keep you safe instead of failing to get through to you. I feel like this is one of those cases.
 
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anonymous999 said:
Hi all,

I recreated a new username in order to maintain some more anonymity (creative username right?).

Anyway, wanted to gauge some opinions on what they think about reapplying while having one MD acceptance already. First off, let me admit my mistake by applying to schools that I am unable to afford. Please do not take this as a sign of not truly wanting to become an MD. Money is an extremely important consideration given my background. While the financial aid situation isn't entirely clear, I'm looking at tuition rates of 50k+ per year. Of course, financial aid in loans is possible but the school doesn't offer much merit aid from what I've gleaned so far.

I'm still waiting to hear back post-II from my IS school, which is not only in the near vicinity, but has a tuition rate at about a rate of ~20k per year while also affording me the option of living at home. If I do end up getting rejected, I know they provide admissions counseling with IS re apps having some success. The school seemed more research focused, which was an attractive fit to me as well.

You might wonder why I'm posting this now without having heard back from IS school yet, and the reason is so that I can move forward by strengthening experiences in personally perceived weaker areas to prepare for a reapplication. As an older prospective student, I'd like to continue school this fall but the prospect of so much debt is daunting.

Is it foolish to become a reapplicant and wait a year for something not guaranteed but with the ability to graduate with less than half of the debt at my IS school?
Click to expand...
Don't be stupid. You'll lose 200-400k of attending salary by deferring a year. That's literally enough money to pay for the entirety of your tuition.

It's like people don't even know how to do basic financial math, my god. Penny-wise but pound-foolish, smdh.
 
cbrons said:
Easily one of the dumbest yet most American statements I've ever heard. Getting deep in debt is literally the definition of throwing away your future.

Sent from my SM-N910P using SDN mobile
Click to expand...
400k in debt to increase your earnings by 150-350k per year over what you'd earn as a non-physician is more than enough to make the investment worthwhile. You might have a rough four or five years if you want to pay it off fast, but it's hardly "throwing away your future." You've got another 30 solid years of attending salary with no debt if you attack it right from the get-go.
 
cbrons said:
Easily one of the dumbest yet most American statements I've ever heard. Getting deep in debt is literally the definition of throwing away your future.

Sent from my SM-N910P using SDN mobile
Click to expand...

Generally I agree with you. In general, telling someone to go into massive debt to pursue their dream is an awful idea. However, medicine is a pretty fair exception to that rule.

Going $150k into debt for an art degree? Dumb.
Going $300k into debt for an MD? Probably not a bad move, and a move that thousands of students make every year.
 
Teaching moment: as far as tuition or COA goes, you're supposed to do due diligence and know stuff like this ahead of time.

If the interview is bad, and you decide you don't want to go to that school, you have to ask yourself, what IF this is my only accept?? How badly do you want to be a doctor??? Because that's what other Adcoms would be thinking. So again, you need to look before you leap.

A decision to withdraw from contention immediately after the interview is a very wise one. This is the type of student med schools want.

With a family illness, one can ask for a deferral.


Lollygag said:
I know that as pre-meds we are suppose to not apply to schools we wouldn't attend if accepted to, but most of us are also quite neurotic and at the beginning of the cycle might just add in more schools because you just desperately want to get in somewhere.

So what happens if a school looks great on paper but you go to the interview and have a terrible experience? Or a family member unexpectedly becomes ill and maybe you no longer want to move across the country? The application cycle is basically a year long process, so many things can change in a year.

Knowing this though, I'm going to make sure I immediately withdraw from any schools that I decide post interview that I would not attend even if it were my only acceptance.
Click to expand...
 
Thanks for all the feedback. As an older student, I guess I'm thinking about things such as starting a family (hopefully a big one!) and having financial stresses I'm afraid will hamper, but not necessarily stop, those dreams. If I really want it I'll make both happen, which I plan on doing so. The IS school was a better fit given the personal tours I took as well as befriending and getting to know several students within the class but it doesn't mean the other institution is a poor fit either.

As far as knowing COA before applying to schools, yes, it was an oversight on my part. The disparity of COA between the two is pretty high. The differentiation between good debt and bad debt hit home though. I'm very appreciative that I have the opportunity to pursue my dream. If anyone else has some insight they'd like to share, I'd be happy to hear. Thanks for feedback again.
 
Lollygag said:
Are you insinuating that every medical student on this forum who lacks a rich daddy to foot the bill is throwing away their future? Lol not sure if I follow...
Click to expand...
I'm sorry you didn't follow.

Even a medical education must undergo a cost/benefit analysis. Having such a casual attitude toward debt is very dumb. And believe it or not, there is a price at which medical education becomes a financially stupid decision (though that price is different for everyone, and not always because they have or don't have a "rich daddy").
 
LizzyM said:
There is good debt and bad debt. Borrowing to buy a home is good debt and almost every home owner in America started out by borrowing to purchase a first home. Likewise, borrowing to attend professional school where the likelihood is high that your salary after graduation will make it possible to pay off the debt, is good debt. Borrowing to attend a for-profit trade school or a off shore med school, maybe not so good.

Buying consumer products (home furnishings, clothing), restaurant meals and leisure travel with credit cards that you don't pay off every month is not smart. Getting deep in debt in that way is throwing away your future. Borrowing to cover modest living expenses while continuing your education with the prospect of a well paying job after graduation is not the same thing.
Click to expand...
You have to pay it all back regardless. And in point of fact, a medical education on a government guarenteed student loan could arguably be considered "bad" debt since its one of the rare types of debt that cannot be discharged in bankruptcy court.

I know the kids in these pre-allo forums since a medical education is worth all the money in the world but its not. There is definitely a price at which it becomes downright foolish to pursue this career (different for everyone though). That was really my point.
 
@anonymous999 Have you looked into any rural medicine programs? I go to a very expensive school but am doing HPSP (I don't want to recommend it until I am a practicing physician, because it is sweet now but don't want to misguide you if it turns sour when I'm a practicing physician.), but my backup was to do a program where I would pledge 5 years of service in a rural area of my state in exchange for a tuition waiver. Additionally, I have heard practices providing loan repayment as a way to attract physicians, but I'm not close to that level yet so I can't confirm the veracity of that.
 
cbrons said:
You have to pay it all back regardless. And in point of fact, a medical education on a government guarenteed student loan could arguably be considered "bad" debt since its one of the rare types of debt that cannot be discharged in bankruptcy court.
Click to expand...

The only MD's that I know who might have to worry about bankruptcy are carribean IMG's. You would have to do either something unethical that caused you to lose your license and therefore are prevented from making a physicians salary, or make some really really poor investments and financial decisions that leaves you in 3x more debt than you were from medical school. So since the vast majority of us are pretty smart individuals and will not be in any of those three situations, I think it's safe to say we'll be ok.
 
cbrons said:
You have to pay it all back regardless. And in point of fact, a medical education on a government guarenteed student loan could arguably be considered "bad" debt since its one of the rare types of debt that cannot be discharged in bankruptcy court.

I know the kids in these pre-allo forums since a medical education is worth all the money in the world but its not. There is definitely a price at which it becomes downright foolish to pursue this career (different for everyone though). That was really my point.
Click to expand...
Relax there buddy, an extra $30k in tuition isn't "all the money in the world," thousands of med students graduate with hundreds of thousands of dollars in debt every year and they all turn out fine if they're moderately wise with their money.
 
anonymous999 said:
Hi all,

I recreated a new username in order to maintain some more anonymity (creative username right?).

Anyway, wanted to gauge some opinions on what they think about reapplying while having one MD acceptance already. First off, let me admit my mistake by applying to schools that I am unable to afford. Please do not take this as a sign of not truly wanting to become an MD. Money is an extremely important consideration given my background. While the financial aid situation isn't entirely clear, I'm looking at tuition rates of 50k+ per year. Of course, financial aid in loans is possible but the school doesn't offer much merit aid from what I've gleaned so far.

I'm still waiting to hear back post-II from my IS school, which is not only in the near vicinity, but has a tuition rate at about a rate of ~20k per year while also affording me the option of living at home. If I do end up getting rejected, I know they provide admissions counseling with IS re apps having some success. The school seemed more research focused, which was an attractive fit to me as well.

You might wonder why I'm posting this now without having heard back from IS school yet, and the reason is so that I can move forward by strengthening experiences in personally perceived weaker areas to prepare for a reapplication. As an older prospective student, I'd like to continue school this fall but the prospect of so much debt is daunting.

Is it foolish to become a reapplicant and wait a year for something not guaranteed but with the ability to graduate with less than half of the debt at my IS school?
Click to expand...

I can see where you're coming from. That being said, there's no such thing as being able to afford medical school or not. Most students take out loans over 4 years to pay for it. Yes, there is a dramatic difference between U of I out of state vs some IS tuitions for some Texas and Cali schools but if that's where you get in, that's where you get in. In Medicine which is such a long road already, each year you delay (with acceptance in hand or while being enrolled) is questioned because there's no room for tolerating second-guessers especially when there's hundreds of students eagerly waiting to take your spot . To somewhat soothe your concern realize that what you are giving up at the end of the day is one year salary as an attending which may actually cover the cost of your tuition. Of course it's not that simple with interest and payments over many years and stress to pay off while living on your own on Resident's salary.


Sent from my iPhone using SDN mobile
 
Overall, if you plan on going to medical school the average difference between going private ($60K) verses State ($30K) over 4 years will be $120K.
IMO everybody on the "I don't have any interviews" thread would gladly give $120K to NOT have to take a gap year. Be aware that, though you have 3 years, MCATs do expire and most people with a decent score do not want to have to go through that again. If you do not gain acceptance into your desired school this year or next year, you might have to retake the MCAT. Also, remember the cost of applying, the time needed to write a good application to 15+ schools, the time and the expense of interviews, and the stress of being in limbo, unable to make plans, for possibly yet another year. Many of the posters who are now realizing they have to take a gap year(s) are not happy with the prospect.

Many did undergraduate in schools like Northwestern, Notre Dame, Vanderbilt, Brown, George Washington U, Swathmoor etc, and sunk $250 into UNDERGRAD tuition which may not even have a payout. Sinking money into medical school, which does have a payout does not seem so bad. By choosing a State School for undergrad or the one that offered scholarship $$, many applicants have already reduced their undergrad costs enough to equate with the cost of 2 years of medical school. The idea that getting into debt is always bad is not true. It is only true when it does not ever become profitable and never has a payout beyond what was invested.
 
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akuko2 said:
@anonymous999 Have you looked into any rural medicine programs? I go to a very expensive school but am doing HPSP (I don't want to recommend it until I am a practicing physician, because it is sweet now but don't want to misguide you if it turns sour when I'm a practicing physician.), but my backup was to do a program where I would pledge 5 years of service in a rural area of my state in exchange for a tuition waiver. Additionally, I have heard practices providing loan repayment as a way to attract physicians, but I'm not close to that level yet so I can't confirm the veracity of that.
Click to expand...

As someone who lives in an urban area, the idea of rural medicine doesn't seem the most attractive option to me, when considering the whole picture and not just financials. That being said however, doesn't mean I won't try and find scholarships and make sure I put the money I've saved towards my education as investment opportunity!
 
Do it man. Drop the acceptance and reapply against all advice. You probably won't get in again and then your spot will go to a student who might make better decisions. The 120,000 you'll be saving by going to an IS school will be equivalent to the amount you make one year earlier as an attending...
 
cbrons said:
I'm sorry you didn't follow.

Even a medical education must undergo a cost/benefit analysis. Having such a casual attitude toward debt is very dumb. And believe it or not, there is a price at which medical education becomes a financially stupid decision (though that price is different for everyone, and not always because they have or don't have a "rich daddy").
Click to expand...

A good way to look at the value of education is in terms of lifetime earnings. The average high school graduate in the country earns 1.2 million dollars in a lifetime. The average college graduate earns about 2 million. The average physician earns 6-15 million over a 35 year post residency career, depending on specialty. Almost everyone except for Academic Pediatricians will have at least 8 million in lifetime earnings.

For medicine to be a bad financial decision, you need to spend more than 4 million on your debt. You could argue that with the stress of training its not worth it overall if you make less than twice what an average college graduate will, but even then you would need to spend 2 million on debt

The absolute most you can spend on medical school right now is about 100K/year. And a good rule of thumb is that you need to earn 3 pre-tax dollars after residency for every dollar you borrow at 7% for medical school (over a 10 year repayment plan). So a worst case scenario is that your debt eats 1.2 million of your lifetime earnings. Which is obscene, but isn't a reason not to go.
 
cbrons said:
You have to pay it all back regardless. And in point of fact, a medical education on a government guarenteed student loan could arguably be considered "bad" debt since its one of the rare types of debt that cannot be discharged in bankruptcy court.

I know the kids in these pre-allo forums since a medical education is worth all the money in the world but its not. There is definitely a price at which it becomes downright foolish to pursue this career (different for everyone though). That was really my point.
Click to expand...



Bad debt is where you have nothing to show for it after the money is spent. Good debt is money that is borrowed with relatively good assurance that the money borrowed will make money. People borrow to buy a home that is expected to appreciate in value over time, they borrow to establish or expand a profitable business, they borrow to acquire the education and credentials needed to earn a higher salary than what they earn with their present education. That is good debt.
 
anonymous999 said:
As someone who lives in an urban area, the idea of rural medicine doesn't seem the most attractive option to me, when considering the whole picture and not just financials. That being said however, doesn't mean I won't try and find scholarships and make sure I put the money I've saved towards my education as investment opportunity!
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If you're interested in primary care, look at the HRSA Service Corp Scholarship or Loan Forgiveness program. You just have to serve in a high need location, sometimes including large cities.
 
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