Being challenged on my ethnic self-identification in interview.

[ChillWaveDaze]

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[Lawpy]

Latino/Hispanic usually refers to Mexicans and Central, Latin, and often South Americans. Not Spaniards or Portuguese from mainland Europe.

@gyngyn could you clarify?

 

[Lannister]

Latino/Hispanic usually refers to Mexicans and Central, Latin, and often South Americans. Not Spaniards or Portuguese from mainland Europe.

I was under the impression that Latino refers specifically to the people of central and south america, including Brazilians, who obviously do not speak Spanish (there are also some countries in SA where French is the main language). Hispanic I think refers to any person who is descended from the Spanish, whether they're from Spain or Central/South America. Therefore, I would think that OP is neither Latino nor Hispanic.

 

[medicalCPA]

Snip. (BTW, i absolutely hate that you're race affects your chances of being accepted)

Oh, Lord. Yet another anti-URM premed.

If race bothered you so much, you could have declined to check the box. Yet you checked it, and now that the consequences are not to your liking, you suddenly "absolutely hate that you're [sic] race affects your chances of being accepted."

 

[Benjoe11]

From my understanding:
Hispanic refers to someone who comes from a Spanish speaking country. Derived from Hispania which refers to España. So people from Spain are Hispanic.

Latino refers to the geographic region of Latin America and South America. So brazilians are Latino but not Hispanic.

 

[idontwatchgreysanatomy]

You didn't seem to hate the fact that race affects your chances when you lied about being URM.

 

[gyngyn]

Latino/Hispanic usually refers to Mexicans and Central, Latin, and often South Americans. Not Spaniards or Portuguese from mainland Europe.

@gyngyn could you clarify?

Hispanic (of or relating to Spain) is a general term that includes many communities that are not under-represented in Medicine.
Though OP's community is not generally considered UIM, his self identification as "Hispanic" might be considered acceptable in its broadest definition if his parents identified as Spanish. Still, his only potential boost is going to be from language skills. There is the possibility that he will be considered disingenuous, though (hence the confusion at interviews).

 

[Lawpy]

I was under the impression that Latino refers specifically to the people of central and south america, including Brazilians, who obviously do not speak Spanish (there are also some countries in SA where French is the main language). Hispanic I think refers to any person who is descended from the Spanish, whether they're from Spain or Central/South America. Therefore, I would think that OP is neither Latino nor Hispanic.

From my understanding:
Hispanic refers to someone who comes from a Spanish speaking country. Derived from Hispania which refers to España. So people from Spain are Hispanic.

Latino refers to the geographic region of Latin America and South America. So brazilians are Latino but not Hispanic.

So according to the US Census Bureau which adcoms use to verify race/ethnicity claims

Hispanics or Latinos are those people who classified themselves in one of the specific Spanish, Hispanic, or Latino categories listed on the Census 2010 questionnaire -"Mexican," "Puerto Rican", or "Cuban"-as well as those who indicate that they are "another Hispanic, Latino, or Spanish origin." People who do not identify with one of the specific origins listed on the questionnaire but indicate that they are "another Hispanic, Latino, or Spanish origin" are those whose origins are from Spain, the Spanish-speaking countries of Central or South America, or the Dominican Republic. The terms "Hispanic," "Latino," and "Spanish" are used interchangeably.

Origin can be view as the heritage, nationality group, lineage, or country of birth of the person or the person's parents or ancestors before their arrival in the United States.

People who identify their origin as Spanish, Hispanic, or Latino may be of any race. Thus, the percent Hispanic should not be added to percentages for racial categories.

So yes, a slight change that people from Spain are considered Hispanic, but not in the same sense as the other URM/UIM Hispanics/Latinos, which is what I was referring at in direct opposition to OP's intents.

Hispanic (of or relating to Spain) is a general term that includes many communities that are not under-represented in Medicine.
Though OP's community is not generally considered UIM, his self identification as "Hispanic" might be considered acceptable in its broadest definition.

Thanks! I just referred to the US Census Bureau definition, and yeah, it's a very broad definition. I was looking at things very narrowly, in specific regards to URM/UIM.

 

[deleted480308]

the medical world is funny.....you can decide if you are a woman or a man without any regard to phenotype but you must prove your racial background

that being said, you are the one who started the conversation by not checking "prefer not to answer"......so it's kind of on you

 

[thrudheim]

(BTW, i absolutely hate that you're race affects your chances of being accepted)

Well, let's clear some things up.

Firstly, race =/= ethnicity.
Speaking Portuguese =/= Hispanic.
Being from Portugal =/= being from Latin America.

Being Latino is more than speaking a Latin-based language. Location weighs in as well. Brazilians are Latino because they are from Latin America, even though they speak Portuguese. Brazilians are also non-Hispanic.

From my understanding being from Portugal would mean that you have a European Latin background, not a Latino from Latin America. Saying that you grew up speaking Spanish does not make you as Hispanic, just as learning French in elementary school would not make you French. I'm getting the impression that you are grasping at straws to label yourself as URM to boost your application. I'm sorry to be the one to tell you, but it doesn't matter what box you decided to check, Portuguese people are not considered URM. You might as well have identified as white European and saved yourself this trouble.

 

[Lannister]

So according to the US Census Bureau which adcoms use to verify race/ethnicity claims

I dislike this definition. So they're basically saying Spanish=Hispanic=Latino. Therefore, that definition excludes all of the people in South and Central America who speak Portuguese or French and claims that they are not Latino because they are not Spanish. BUT the definition of "Latin America" is, "A term applied to all of the Spanish- or Portuguese-speaking nations south of the United States." Therefore, Brazilians and other non-Spanish speakers who reside in these countries SHOULD be considered Latino. =/

 

[Lawpy]

I dislike this definition. So they're basically saying Spanish=Hispanic=Latino. Therefore, that definition excludes all of the people in South and Central America who speak Portuguese or French and claims that they are not Latino because they are not Spanish. BUT the definition of "Latin America" is, "A term applied to all of the Spanish- or Portuguese-speaking nations south of the United States." Therefore, Brazilians and other non-Spanish speakers who reside in these countries SHOULD be considered Latino. =/

The US Census Bureau has inaccurate definitions. They even grouped South Asians and East Asians into the same category as Asians even though both groups are biologically, socially and ethnically different. So this is not a surprise, but medical schools follow the US Census Bureau definitions without question.

 

[deleted480308]

I dislike this definition. So they're basically saying Spanish=Hispanic=Latino. Therefore, that definition excludes all of the people in South and Central America who speak Portuguese or French and claims that they are not Latino because they are not Spanish. BUT the definition of "Latin America" is, "A term applied to all of the Spanish- or Portuguese-speaking nations south of the United States." Therefore, Brazilians and other non-Spanish speakers who reside in these countries SHOULD be considered Latino. =/

do you now see that when you ask someone for special privileges to be given to a group that the dispenser of privilege sets definitions for the group? this only matters when you ask for extra "consideration"

 

[Lannister]

Soo hypothetically, if someone was Brazilian, assuming they are pretty much 100% Portuguese and have no indigenous or African roots, what are they supposed to put on AMCAS? Caucasian? That just does not make sense to me.

 

[Lawpy]

Soo hypothetically, if someone was Brazilian, assuming they are pretty much 100% Portuguese and have no indigenous or African roots, what are they supposed to put on AMCAS? Caucasian? That just does not make sense to me.

Probably just White. Whereas an Argentine with 100% Spanish and no indigenous/African roots will be considered White Hispanic.

 

[Lannister]

Probably just White. Whereas an Argentine with 100% Spanish and no indigenous/African routes will be considered White Hispanic.

That's what doesn't make sense to me. If an Argentinian is getting a leg up by being able to say that they are Hispanic (they probably don't actually benefit, but I dunno anything about this) then a Brazilian should DEFINITELY get a leg up. Argentina is much more developed and prosperous than Brazil.

Edit: actually according to the Human Development Index, even Mexico is more developed than Brazil, so if Brazilians really aren't supposed to say that they're Hispanic, that definitely seems unfair to me.

 

[thrudheim]

Soo hypothetically, if someone was Brazilian, assuming they are pretty much 100% Portuguese and have no indigenous or African roots, what are they supposed to put on AMCAS? Caucasian? That just does not make sense to me.

Brazilian as in born and raised in Brazil? White Hispanic/Latino would make sense to me.

 

[Lannister]

Brazilian as in born and raised in Brazil? White Hispanic/Latino would make sense to me.

That would make sense to me also, but according to the definition @Lawper posted, that would be incorrect.

 

[Lawpy]

That's what doesn't make sense to me. If an Argentinian is getting a leg up by being able to say that they are Hispanic (they probably don't actually benefit, but I dunno anything about this) then a Brazilian should DEFINITELY get a leg up. Argentina is much more developed and prosperous than Brazil.

They aren't URM/UIM so there really isn't an added benefit/leg up. Spanish skills can be done by non-Hispanics as well and can significantly benefit the underserved Hispanic/Latino community.

 

[Lannister]

They aren't URM/UIM so there really isn't an added benefit/leg up. Spanish skills can be done by non-Hispanics as well and can significantly benefit the underserved Hispanic/Latino community.

Yeah I didn't think Argentinians were, but are Brazilians?
And yeah that's why I'm a Spanish major

 

[Lawpy]

Yeah I didn't think Argentinians were, but are Brazilians?
And yeah that's why I'm a Spanish major

Not according to the US Census Bureau (if you're asking URM/UIM, Brazilians are definitely ORM. Think Mexicans and some Latin Americans as URM/UIM Hispanics).

People who do not identify with one of the specific origins listed on the questionnaire but indicate that they are "another Hispanic, Latino, or Spanish origin" are those whose origins are from Spain, the Spanish-speaking countries of Central or South America, or the Dominican Republic. The terms "Hispanic," "Latino," and "Spanish" are used interchangeably.

I know, the US Census Bureau definitions are inaccurate and outdated. Medical schools follow the definitions to the letter, so we're stuck with it no matter how senseless and wrong it seems. But I still maintain that White Hispanics and Whites really have insignificant differences besides some added language skills, which non-Hispanics can easily acquire and master.

 

[Lannister]

Not according to the US Census Bureau (if you're asking URM/UIM, Brazilians are definitely ORM. Think Mexicans and some Latin Americans as URM/UIM Hispanics).

People who do not identify with one of the specific origins listed on the questionnaire but indicate that they are "another Hispanic, Latino, or Spanish origin" are those whose origins are from Spain, the Spanish-speaking countries of Central or South America, or the Dominican Republic. The terms "Hispanic," "Latino," and "Spanish" are used interchangeably.

I know, the US Census Bureau definitions are inaccurate and outdated. Medical schools follow the definitions to the letter, so we're stuck with it no matter how senseless and wrong it seems. But I still maintain that White Hispanics and Whites really have insignificant differences besides some added language skills, which non-Hispanics can easily acquire and master.

Okay! I'm not too worried about who is considered URM in practice, I'm just annoyed at the US Census Bureau's definition of Latino so that's what I'm arguing against haha.

 

[AirplaneFruit]

If race bothered you so much, you could have declined to check the box.

I don't think adcoms like it when you decline to check the box

 

[Lannister]

But to get back to the topic at hand: yes OP lied about his/her ethnicity. Even if he/she didn't mean to lie, what was written on the application was untruthful. Dunno if there'll be repercussions, there probably should be. Should have done a little more research, OP.

 

[piii]

I also have been surrounded in a primarily Hispanic/Latino environment throughout my childhood

This is like me saying that I have a German heritage but grew up in a asian neighborhood, so I identify as Chinese...

 

[Lannister]

This is like me saying that I have a German heritage but grew up in a asian neighborhood and environment, so I identify as Chinese...

Haha this actually reminds me of that white lady who pretended to be black.

 

[gyngyn]

Not according to the US Census Bureau (if you're asking URM/UIM, Brazilians are definitely ORM. Think Mexicans and some Latin Americans as URM/UIM Hispanics).

People who do not identify with one of the specific origins listed on the questionnaire but indicate that they are "another Hispanic, Latino, or Spanish origin" are those whose origins are from Spain, the Spanish-speaking countries of Central or South America, or the Dominican Republic. The terms "Hispanic," "Latino," and "Spanish" are used interchangeably.

I know, the US Census Bureau definitions are inaccurate and outdated. Medical schools follow the definitions to the letter, so we're stuck with it no matter how senseless and wrong it seems. But I still maintain that White Hispanics and Whites really have insignificant differences besides some added language skills, which non-Hispanics can easily acquire and master.

The race and ethnicity tables from AMCAS are hard to interpret because they use self-identified data.
Lots of the folks in these tables are not being considered UIM by medical schools (just like OP).

 

[Lawpy]

The race and ethnicity tables from AMCAS are hard to interpret because they use self-identified data.
Lots of the folks in these tables are not being considered UIM by medical schools (just like OP).

What do you think of a suggestion to eliminate race/ethnicity self-identification from the application? Would it be unnecessary since all application systems include them by default?

 

[ChillWaveDaze]

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[gyngyn]

Well, I understand that my reasoning for identifying as Hispanic/Latino does not exactly fall under U.S. Census Bureau guidelines, but I have truly self-identified with this ethnicity throughout my life. That's just the bottom line for me. If I knew it would cause me this trouble, I would have put down Caucasian. I mean if an interviewer suspects that I have "violated" those guidelines on my application, will they notify the AAMC or other schools? Thanks for all the help guys.

This happens all the time.
We only report verifiable evidence of lying, cheating or credible threats of violence.
If we reported everyone who identified themselves as UIM but was not, we'd have to hire another full time employee!

 

[raiderette]

What do you think of a suggestion to eliminate race/ethnicity self-identification from the application? Would it be unnecessary since all application systems include them by default?

Those numbers still matter. If you don't measure it, you can't see the trends. There are fewer AA doctors now than in the 70s in post-racial US. Those numbers matter. Hispanic numbers matter in order to gauge trends in healthcare with a changing demographic. If anything, I would prefer that they add more boxes in order to more accurately measure and consider populations. Wouldn't it make sense to be able to track Asian URM populations such as Hmong, to differentiate between white European and Middle Eastern? It need not be divisive. Of course, it should start with the US Census correcting their definitions and expanding their categories.

 

[NickNaylor]

Well, I understand that my reasoning for identifying as Hispanic/Latino does not exactly fall under U.S. Census Bureau guidelines, but I have truly self-identified with this ethnicity throughout my life. That's just the bottom line for me. If I knew it would cause me this trouble, I would have put down Caucasian. I mean if an interviewer suspects that I have "violated" those guidelines on my application, will they notify the AAMC or other schools? Thanks for all the help guys.

You can self-identify as whatever you want, but when you have the potential to benefit from that self-identification (e.g., URM definition) and you don't appear to "fit the bill," so to speak, then yes, you will likely be asked - directly or indirectly - about it.

No one will care what you self-identify as. It's not as if you're lying about it from your perspective. It is just unlikely to "help" you in the admissions process as it might, for example, a Hispanic applicant living in Compton would. And if there is a real disconnect between what you self-identify as and what you appear to be, then a school is unlikely to trust you or believe that you are being completely genuine in your application. Neither of those things is what you're aiming for, obviously.

 

[Goro]

We don't care

I don't think adcoms like it when you decline to check the box

 

[LFC85]

I'm Hispanic/latino, born in Central America, and I don't even know my race!

It is an interesting question, though. There's probably little doubt that I am Native American (Amerindian), but to what percentage? And is the other percentage Asian or Caucasian or something else? And what race would I select then?

In short, I'm simply checking Hispanic.

 

[WGSgrad]

This thread is kind of funny and not at all surprising if you have been following the OP's other threads...

In a thread in which the OP asked about their chances as a first generation Hispanic male and then was asked about their service to that community (or even about their experience as a member of that community), the OP came up with nada.

The rationale behind medical schools admitting URMs is the idea that most URM communities are generally under served and the hope is that producing more URM doctors will increase service to those communities (you see this rationale reflected in the mission of predominantly URM schools like Howard). Medical school applicants who are not URMs don't really seem to care or understand this. For most, it's an angle to increase the likelihood of acceptance into the competitive medical school application process. Which is how you can have a recently immigrated European American say, "(BTW, i absolutely hate that you're race affects your chances of being accepted)" with the entitlement that accompanies it with a totally straight face.

Hilarious.

 

[ChillWaveDaze]

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[Womb Raider]

What do you think of a suggestion to eliminate race/ethnicity self-identification from the application?

Remove race/ethnicity classification all together? Or only the self-identification part? If the latter, how do you propose applicants proving their race/ethnicity?

 

[WGSgrad]

Remove race/ethnicity classification all together? Or only the self-identification part? If the latter, how do you propose applicants proving their race/ethnicity?

 

[Old_Mil]

The Rules of Victimology are the only thing on the planet more confusing than ICD10. Good luck to you.

 

[Doug Underhill]

It would be unfortunate if someone who was Brazilian faced adverse consequences for claiming they were Hispanic/Latino, even though Brazil is not a majority Spanish-speaking country. The country's unique ethnic history makes them challenging to classify.

In the end, I would probably just nod and accept what they said, but Brazilians are not considered UIM, right? It should not affect admissions unless they were fluent in Portuguese and the med school served a Portuguese-speaking population.

 

[lcm2020]

It would be unfortunate if someone who was Brazilian faced adverse consequences for claiming they were Hispanic/Latino, even though Brazil is not a majority Spanish-speaking country. The country's unique ethnic history makes them challenging to classify.

In the end, I would probably just nod and accept what they said, but Brazilians are not considered UIM, right? It should not affect admissions unless they were fluent in Portuguese and the med school served a Portuguese-speaking population.

To end this discussion. Born and raised in Brazil here, and on AMCAS I have:
"Hispanic, Latino, or of Spanish origin
Other (Brazilian)"
I had almost no problems with this except for one school where the interviewer said my English was way too good and asked for proof of my Brazilian origins (wtf), but this was not related to how I identified myself on AMCAS. On top of it all I do look like a regular white dude, so it's really all about of how you identify yourself (just don't be European putting yourself as latino, haha)

 

[JessebenBenjamin]

I had almost no problems with this except for one school where the interviewer said my English was way too good and asked for proof of my Brazilian origins (wtf), but this was not related to how I identified myself on AMCAS. On top of it all I do look like a regular white dude, so it's really all about of how you identify yourself (just don't be European putting yourself as latino, haha)

My interviewer asked me what I thought of Donald Trump and border security.

 

[gyngyn]

In the end, I would probably just nod and accept what they said, but Brazilians are not considered UIM, right? It should not affect admissions unless they were fluent in Portuguese and the med school served a Portuguese-speaking population.

Each school has the autonomy to identify and recruit any group as under-served (and thus UIM).
If the school identifies an under-served Brazilian, Portuguese, Hmong, Cambodian or any other group it may so designate.

 

[Womb Raider]

My interviewer asked me what I thought of Donald Trump and border security.

What did you say?

 

[JessebenBenjamin]

What did you say?

Border security is necessary, but Trump is going at it the wrong way.

 

[JCK51792]

If you are a Massachusetts resident, you are considered URM in that state. Unfortunately, if you are from a Portuguese speaking background and not from that state, you can't apply there unless via MD/Ph.D pathway.

http://www.umassmed.edu/som1/admissions/academic-programs/baccalaureate-md-pathway/

 

[Proteinz]

To end this discussion. Born and raised in Brazil here, and on AMCAS I have:
"Hispanic, Latino, or of Spanish origin
Other (Brazilian)"
I had almost no problems with this except for one school where the interviewer said my English was way too good and asked for proof of my Brazilian origins (wtf), but this was not related to how I identified myself on AMCAS. On top of it all I do look like a regular white dude, so it's really all about of how you identify yourself (just don't be European putting yourself as latino, haha)

That is weird that they asked you for proof. None of my interviewers asked me for proof of my ethnicity, and I'm Mexican of European descent. Maybe your interviewer doesn't know about Brazilian culture. Non Hispanics I meet usually don't believe me when I tell them I'm not white because they don't know that there's also people of European descent in the Hispanic culture.

 

[LizzyM]

That is weird that they asked you for proof. None of my interviewers asked me for proof of my ethnicity, and I'm Mexican of European descent. Maybe your interviewer doesn't know about Brazilian culture. Non Hispanics I meet usually don't believe me when I tell them I'm not white because they don't know that there's also people of European descent in the Hispanic culture.

You are confusing race and ethnicity. Hispanics can be of any race. The category "white" is usually further divided to be "White, non-Hispanic" to account for that.

 

[AsianPersuasion]

If you are a Massachusetts resident, you are considered URM in that state. Unfortunately, if you are from a Portuguese speaking background and not from that state, you can't apply there unless via MD/Ph.D pathway.

http://www.umassmed.edu/som1/admissions/academic-programs/baccalaureate-md-pathway/

Nope. It's now open to the OOS for their regular MD program. What you're looking at is the joint program. I believe 12 spots is reserved for OOS.