Being secular in medical school

Started by Funny_Current
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Funny_Current

Funny_Current

Why would anyone do drugs when they can mow a lawn
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I am just wondering if there is anyone else out there who is pursuing medicine being secular/ an atheist. I'm not a militant atheist pushing a Richard Dawkins style agenda, but I do have peers and know people who identify as secular and I personally think it would be nice to have a group of like minded people to talk about certain issues that relate to medicine. The medical school I will be attending doesn't have any organizations for secular students and if I can find enough interest I may try to start an organization.

Whatever your beliefs might be, what are your thoughts? If you are religious, how would you feel knowing there is a secular student organziation? Any thoughts, insight, or personal experiences are highly appreciated!

(Sorry in advance to moderators if this is not posted in the correct forum)
 
I'm in a rather interesting position, religiously (well, it's probably not that interesting, but it has altered my perspectives for sure). My mother is Catholic (along with her whole family), and my dad is an atheist (his family is "Christian in name only"). My siblings and I were raised Catholic: Church on Sundays, CCD, baptism, first communion, first (and last, for me) confession, confirmation, etc. But my dad was always there to offer snide comments about indoctrination and an ever-present reminder to my sister and I about how poorly the church treats women. I have not attended mass regularly since starting college, and try (and often succeed) to not think about whether or not I believe in some higher being. I like the part of the church (or any religion) that emphasizes community, peace, loving, acceptance, etc. I don't like the parts that relegate parts of the population to second-class citizenship, or that thinks that it is their place to regulate people's private affairs, or that judges rather than helps and affirms. And I certainly don't like the holier-than-thou assumption that only people who believed in God can enter heaven, if such a thing exists. Because my father is one of the best people I know, and practices (secularly, of course) a lot of the "Christian" values that Christians have forgotten.

All of this by way of saying you could probably call me agnostic, and I would be interested in a secular interest group in medical school, if only to try to find people who are as confused about religion as I am. Also, I think no rational person would take issue with a secular medical student interest group existing, but then again, many religious people aren't that rational.
 
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PB&Jam said:
I'm in a rather interesting position, religiously (well, it's probably not that interesting, but it has altered my perspectives for sure). My mother is Catholic (along with her whole family), and my dad is an atheist (his family is "Christian in name only"). My siblings and I were raised Catholic: Church on Sundays, CCD, baptism, first communion, first (and last, for me) confession, confirmation, etc. But my dad was always there to offer snide comments about indoctrination and an ever-present reminder to my sister and I about how poorly the church treats women.
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Wow. Switch "mom" with "dad" and you have my life. Haha.




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Lannister said:
Wow. Switch "mom" with "dad" and you have my life. Haha.




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Like I said it's probably not that unique or rare. I've just managed to make friends with people who've either come from fully Catholic/Christian or fully secular households.

Do you think the different perspective has influenced your views on religion/atheism at all?
 
PB&Jam said:
I'm in a rather interesting position, religiously (well, it's probably not that interesting, but it has altered my perspectives for sure). My mother is Catholic (along with her whole family), and my dad is an atheist (his family is "Christian in name only"). My siblings and I were raised Catholic: Church on Sundays, CCD, baptism, first communion, first (and last, for me) confession, confirmation, etc. But my dad was always there to offer snide comments about indoctrination and an ever-present reminder to my sister and I about how poorly the church treats women. I have not attended mass regularly since starting college, and try (and often succeed) to not think about whether or not I believe in some higher being. I like the part of the church (or any religion) that emphasizes community, peace, loving, acceptance, etc. I don't like the parts that relegate parts of the population to second-class citizenship, or that thinks that it is their place to regulate people's private affairs, or that judges rather than helps and affirms. And I certainly don't like the holier-than-thou assumption that only people who believed in God can enter heaven, if such a thing exists. Because my father is one of the best people I know, and practices (secularly, of course) a lot of the "Christian" values that Christians have forgotten.

All of this by way of saying you could probably call me agnostic, and I would be interested in a secular interest group in medical school, if only to try to find people who are as confused about religion as I am. Also, I think no rational person would take issue with a secular medical student interest group existing, but then again, many religious people aren't that rational.
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Wow! Thanks for sharing such a personal story. I was raised in church as well since my mom was a Pentecostal. It wasn't until I took biology classes that I really went on a personal quest for how to understand life. Since then I have been perfectly content with understanding life through science and human/culture values. That transition was a slow one though because of family backlash and a ingrained childhood fear of thinking I was going to hell.

Anyhow, I think that's a great thing to consider regarding the group being supportive of people who are agnostic or just unsure what they believe.


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Lannister said:
Dude there are tons of atheists in medical school. You'll be fine. As a Catholic, I would not give a crap if there was a secular student organization, why would I care?


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Perhaps you wouldn't care but there are people who are extremely religious and it might affect them. I don't want to do something that would make people uncomfortable or seem disruptive. Most student organizations are interest groups in physician specialties.


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Funny_Current said:
Perhaps you wouldn't care but there are people who are extremely religious and it might affect them. I don't want to do something that would make people uncomfortable or seem disruptive. Most student organizations are interest groups in physician specialties.


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Looking at the student groups at the schools I've been accepted to, a lot of them are specialty interest groups, but there are exceptions (a board game club, for example. Medical students really are super-nerds, and I love it). Like in college, if it's important to enough people and you can get the space/what little funding you might need, you've got a club. Doesn't necessarily have to be about medicine directly (although you could have discussions about topics like secular humanism and medicine, or something of the like), just has to be something that people want to get together and talk about. Personally, I'm scared ****less of not making friends when I get to med school, so I'm game for any group that I might be slightly interested in.
 
Funny_Current said:
Perhaps you wouldn't care but there are people who are extremely religious and it might affect them. I don't want to do something that would make people uncomfortable or seem disruptive. Most student organizations are interest groups in physician specialties.


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Like how would it affect them?
 
Just don't apply to LUCOM or Loma Linda.


Funny_Current said:
I am just wondering if there is anyone else out there who is pursuing medicine being secular/ an atheist. I'm not a militant atheist pushing a Richard Dawkins style agenda, but I do have peers and know people who identify as secular and I personally think it would be nice to have a group of like minded people to talk about certain issues that relate to medicine. The medical school I will be attending doesn't have any organizations for secular students and if I can find enough interest I may try to start an organization.

Whatever your beliefs might be, what are your thoughts? If you are religious, how would you feel knowing there is a secular student organziation? Any thoughts, insight, or personal experiences are highly appreciated!

(Sorry in advance to moderators if this is not posted in the correct forum)
Click to expand...
 
Scarlet Spider said:
Like how would it affect them?
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It's just that religion is a highly sensitive subject, and from personal experience people can become highly offended when you stand for something that is in conflict with their beliefs. I'm not saying that it would happen - the caliber of people going to medical school or professional schools are usually able to respect others beliefs. Nonetheless, I still think it's important to consider any potential problems

Edit: grammar

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PB&Jam said:
Like I said it's probably not that unique or rare. I've just managed to make friends with people who've either come from fully Catholic/Christian or fully secular households.

Do you think the different perspective has influenced your views on religion/atheism at all?
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My mom and her entire extended family are very aggressive about their atheism and just kind of emotionally cold, whereas my dad's side of the family are all Catholic and are all incredibly kind and generous people. So mostly it's made me feel like a lot of atheists are much more intolerant and hateful than a lot of Catholics. (Just to clarify, I'm sure that most atheists aren't the way, but some definitely are, as are some Catholics).
 
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sleepyhead22 said:
What types of things do religious student clubs talk about? Not asking to be sarcastic or anything, I'm just curious what they entail.
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Even as a religious person, I always find the idea of those kinds of clubs kind of scary. Once, my ultra-religious roommate cornered me in the kitchen and asked if I "had accepted Jesus Christ as my lord and savior" and I literally wanted to die if it meant I could escape that conversation. I can't imagine wanting to sit in front of a bunch of people and talk about my faith. I've always felt like that stuff is kind of personal and I don't go around talking openly about it.
 
Pepe18 said:
There is fellowship (of the religious kind). Having religious discussions, supporting each other through religion. Organizing religious events and getting involved with religious affiliated relgious organizations, providing relgious service to patients, etc.

Medicine is secular and then atheism/agnosticism is basically a lack of belief in a god, so there isn't too much to do/discuss.
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I disagree. There are a lot of things to discuss, especially ethical dilemmas involving religion/ cultural issues interfering with patient care. It can also serve as a support group for people who are confused about what they believe. Being secular doesn't meant you can't get involved with other humanitarian organizations and organize community events.


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Lannister said:
My mom and her entire extended family are very aggressive about their atheism and just kind of emotionally cold, whereas my dad's side of the family are all Catholic and are all incredibly kind and generous people. So mostly it's made me feel like a lot of atheists are much more intolerant and hateful than a lot of Catholics. (Just to clarify, I'm sure that most atheists aren't the way, but some definitely are, as are some Catholics).
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I guess that makes sense. Could be that I was pushed the other way because my dad is one of the kindest, most open and giving people I have ever met, and my mom's side of the family is full of closet intolerance, i.e. they are nice enough people, but heaven forbid you don't agree with their worldview or fit their mold of how people should behave, who they should love, what gender they should be, etc.
 
Lannister said:
Even as a religious person, I always find the idea of those kinds of clubs kind of scary. Once, my ultra-religious roommate cornered me in the kitchen and asked if I "had accepted Jesus Christ as my lord and savior" and I literally wanted to die if it meant I could escape that conversation. I can't imagine wanting to sit in front of a bunch of people and talk about my faith. I've always felt like that stuff is kind of personal and I don't go around talking openly about it.
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this x1000. same exact thing happened to me once (not with my roommate). absolutely nightmarish. especially if you haven't cemented your views on anything. the only thing im confident about is that i don't enjoy trying to be converted by fanatics of any viewpoint.
 
Lannister said:
Even as a religious person, I always find the idea of those kinds of clubs kind of scary. Once, my ultra-religious roommate cornered me in the kitchen and asked if I "had accepted Jesus Christ as my lord and savior" and I literally wanted to die if it meant I could escape that conversation. I can't imagine wanting to sit in front of a bunch of people and talk about my faith. I've always felt like that stuff is kind of personal and I don't go around talking openly about it.
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I feel this. In high school, my ultra-religious friend got me to join her bible study club. I was going through a rough time, mental-health wise, and decided to try to give a religious approach a go. It was all sort of creepy, faux-empathetic stuff (not that the people themselves weren't empathetic, just that the scripture readings they chose to help me and the "prayers" they offered me kinda fell flat). It was all like "Jesus Christ will heal you if you accept and love him," and I'm like, I think I'm going to find more of a savior in a therapist than a dead guy.
 
kb1900 said:
this x1000. same exact thing happened to me once (not with my roommate). absolutely nightmarish. especially if you haven't cemented your views on anything. the only thing im confident about is that i don't enjoy trying to be converted by fanatics of any viewpoint.
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PB&Jam said:
I feel this. In high school, my ultra-religious friend got me to join her bible study club. I was going through a rough time, mental-health wise, and decided to try to give a religious approach a go. It was all sort of creepy, faux-empathetic stuff (not that the people themselves weren't empathetic, just that the scripture readings they chose to help me and the "prayers" they offered me kinda fell flat). It was all like "Jesus Christ will heal you if you accept and love him," and I'm like, I think I'm going to find more of a savior in a therapist than a dead guy.
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I'm glad other people have had this experience haha. I still cringe and get embarrassed when I think about that conversation and it happened two years ago. The girl was one of the nicest people I've ever met, and I know she had good intentions, but still.
 
I'm Catholic (sort of), but who cares? Do you.

Most atheists are as annoying as Mormons loaded for bear. Don't force your beliefs on someone else, no matter what you are.
 
HopefulSlav said:
I'm Catholic (sort of), but who cares? Do you.

Most atheists are as annoying as Mormons loaded for bear. Don't force your beliefs on someone else, no matter what you are.
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Cool story, bro. This is exactly what I meant by this being a sensitive subject. If you want to put people down or try and invoke an argument out of someone go somewhere else.


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Pepe18 said:
That's an ethical dilemma that you will have to discuss in class (and the answer is just that pt has autonomy).
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That could get sticky though. It's never that easy in real life. There are plenty of circumstances where the patient isn't fully able to exercise their autonomy, which are rightly recognized in medical ethics and case law, and which necessitate the intervention of a trusted person on the patient's behalf. But there are also interesting arguments to be made (and that have been made) that even when a patient is legally autonomous, the state of being a patient (being ill/injured) compromises their autonomy and causes them to act in ways which they wouldn't normally. If you can, try to get a hold of Ackerman's paper "Why Doctors Should Intervene." He outlines numerous ways in which autonomy can be compromised, demonstrates that most patients have had their autonomy compromised in these ways, and concludes with the assertion that doctors do not fully treat the patient when they act merely as competent caregivers and assume that the patient's autonomy is the end all, be all. He argues that doctors instead should see it as part of their duty to restore autonomy to patients, which, in Ackerman's view, involves medical intervention in the patient's best interest.

Obviously this gets quite sticky too, but there is a point to be made there. Not to use Dr. House as an upstanding model of medical ethics, but he did save quite a few lives by insisting that he knew best and the patient didn't.
 
PB&Jam said:
That could get sticky though. It's never that easy in real life. There are plenty of circumstances where the patient isn't fully able to exercise their autonomy, which are rightly recognized in medical ethics and case law, and which necessitate the intervention of a trusted person on the patient's behalf. But there are also interesting arguments to be made (and that have been made) that even when a patient is legally autonomous, the state of being a patient (being ill/injured) compromises their autonomy and causes them to act in ways which they wouldn't normally. If you can, try to get a hold of Ackerman's paper "Why Doctors Should Intervene." He outlines numerous ways in which autonomy can be compromised, demonstrates that most patients have had their autonomy compromised in these ways, and concludes with the assertion that doctors do not fully treat the patient when they act merely as competent caregivers and assume that the patient's autonomy is the end all, be all. He argues that doctors instead should see it as part of their duty to restore autonomy to patients, which, in Ackerman's view, involves medical intervention in the patient's best interest.

Obviously this gets quite sticky too, but there is a point to be made there. Not to use Dr. House as an upstanding model of medical ethics, but he did save quite a few lives by insisting that he knew best and the patient didn't.
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This x1000. Nicely said


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I wouldn't discuss religion or politics at all if I was in med school to be honest. Piss off the wrong guy and you can kiss your career good bye
Unfortunate truth
 
Dr.Sticks said:
I wouldn't discuss religion or politics at all if I was in med school to be honest. Piss off the wrong guy and you can kiss your career good bye
Unfortunate truth
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I think it depends on who you're talking to, I think it's totally fine to talk to your classmates about religion and politics.
 
Just dont be these guys and you should be fine.
1202_10151403005166800_556376486_n.jpg
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Dr.Sticks said:
I wouldn't discuss religion or politics at all if I was in med school to be honest. Piss off the wrong guy and you can kiss your career good bye
Unfortunate truth
Click to expand...

Lannister said:
I think it depends on who you're talking to, I think it's totally fine to talk to your classmates about religion and politics.
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Agreed. Don't get into it with your profs unless you know their opinion/that they'll take it as an intellectual debate and not a slight to their beliefs or lack thereof. With other students, go at it, if political/religious debates are your thing. Highly doubtful one of your peers will be determining your future career.
 
Lannister said:
I think it depends on who you're talking to, I think it's totally fine to talk to your classmates about religion and politics.
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Perhaps, but I would keep those conversations off social media.
PB&Jam said:
Agreed. Don't get into it with your profs unless you know their opinion/that they'll take it as an intellectual debate and not a slight to their beliefs or lack thereof. With other students, go at it, if political/religious debates are your thing. Highly doubtful one of your peers will be determining your future career.
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No; But social media posts can/do travel no matter your privacy settings
 
Dr.Sticks said:
No; But social media posts can/do travel no matter your privacy settings
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Posting political/religious beliefs on social media is usually asking for trouble. That said, if you do it in a reasoned and intelligent way (rare, I know), I don't think any medical professional can slight you for it. If you're not smart about it and post something insulting or incendiary, then yeah, ya dun goofed.
 
Dr.Sticks said:
Perhaps, but I would keep those conversations off social media.
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I would keep off of social media in general. What are you really gaining from Facebook, when you think about it? All it does it make me depressed that I'm not traveling the world and drinking wine on the beach like the kids I went to high school with.
 
Also be prepared to feel incredibly uncomfortable, a good portion of hospitals in america are affiliated with religious institutions. That being said. No one cares. this is America in 2016 we are the most secular we have ever been as a nation.
 
Lannister said:
Even as a religious person, I always find the idea of those kinds of clubs kind of scary. Once, my ultra-religious roommate cornered me in the kitchen and asked if I "had accepted Jesus Christ as my lord and savior" and I literally wanted to die if it meant I could escape that conversation. I can't imagine wanting to sit in front of a bunch of people and talk about my faith. I've always felt like that stuff is kind of personal and I don't go around talking openly about it.
Click to expand...
For those of us outside the majority( or even large minority) campus religious organizations are a way for us to find people who share similar interests.
 
Pagan FutureDoc said:
For those of us outside the majority or large minority campus religious organizations are a way for us to find people who share similar interests.
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Sorry, I didn't really mean to bash religious groups, they're just not for me personally. I totally get why other people join them.
 
PB&Jam said:
Posting political/religious beliefs on social media is usually asking for trouble. That said, if you do it in a reasoned and intelligent way (rare, I know), I don't think any medical professional can slight you for it. If you're not smart about it and post something insulting or incendiary, then yeah, ya dun goofed.
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Remember when Hopkins medical students boycotted Ben Carson because he didn't agree with gay marriage or something?
I think holding certain views and expressing them is very risky.. That incident alone shows it.

Lannister said:
I would keep off of social media in general. What are you really gaining from Facebook, when you think about it? All it does it make me depressed that I'm not traveling the world and drinking wine on the beach like the kids I went to high school with.
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Kids from my school are either parents by now or broke still.. Lol
Or high or shooting heroin(sadly)
(Class of 15)
 
Keep political opinions to your self. If you are soo inclined wait until you are an attending, but even then they can cause trouble for you. If I had a burning desire to contribute to online social media I would create fake accounts and spew my hearts content making sure I was anonymous . Just like this account. Hypnotoad 2016!!!!
 
libertyyne said:
Keep political opinions to your self. If you are soo inclined wait until you are an attending, but even then they can cause trouble for you. If I had a burning desire to contribute to online social media I would create fake accounts and spew my hearts content making sure I was anonymous . Just like this account.
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+1
I read that if you piss the wrong person off you can be kept from taking boards and from ever being able to practice
https://forums.studentdoctor.net/threads/chilling-resident-lawsuit-ohio-state.1108344/
 
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libertyyne said:
There is also the anasthesiologist from CO that said some nasty stuff about Michelle Obama that got forced to resign and fired from her professorship.
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Or those surgeons who talked badly about a patient during a case in the OR and got sued big time?

Yeah.. I will probably deactivate my social media accounts when I apply..

Not a risk I want to take ever
 
You might find it interesting to know that even during the middle ages there was an idiom in Europe that went like: Tres medici, duo athei. I.e, 2 out 3 doctors are atheists. In the 17th century Thomas Browne wrote a now infamous defense of Christianity in the medical profession called Religio Medici (which I recommend reading, even as an atheist, if for no other reason than its prose). In any case, this has always been a profession stereotypically stocked with skeptics. If you live in the bible belt this might be hard to believe, but I'd be willing to bet 50% of physicians would consider themselves agnostic about religion.
 
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Dr.Sticks said:
Or those surgeons who talked badly about a patient during a case in the OR and got sued big time?

Yeah.. I will probably deactivate my social media accounts when I apply..

Not a risk I want to take ever
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MY accounts are deactivated. May reactivate when I matriculate, maybe , maybe not.
 
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