Besides CNU, are there any other bad US MD schools?

[donutzebra]

As someone who might have to reapply in the future and expand my school list, and also simply out of curiosity, I'd like to know. Besides the obvious California Northstate University, are there any US MD schools that are actually bad?

I don't mean schools that are "low-tier" but will still ensure that all students who put in the honest effort and make sound decisions in residency applications will be able to get residencies and become full-fledged doctors in the US. I also don't mean schools that are just located in places many students might not want to live. I also don't mean schools that have lifestyle requirements that most students wouldn't agree with (e.g. Loma Linda, which I won't be applying to).

I mean US MD schools that have characteristics of Caribbean schools. US MD schools applicants should "watch out for." US MD schools that make you go "Umm, you really don't want to go there." US MD schools from which a significant portion of the student body might not get residencies. US MD schools with high attrition rates. US MD schools that put profits above students. US MD schools in serious danger of losing accreditation. Do any exist besides CNU?

Also, I know I mentioned CNU a lot, but please don't turn this thread into a "CNU isn't that bad" argument. I'm sure there are plenty of other threads for that.

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[Lawpy]

CNU is the only one. The rest would be dinged by the LCME if that ever happened

 

[Staco]

I don't even have any connections to CNU but the double-standard here... "LCME would ding any bad schools", "wait uh, CNU is just the exception that proves the rule".
Aside from your baseless assumptions and hilarious disclaimer at the end, widen your scope and just focus on getting into a US-MD school to avoid reapplying a 3rd time. I personally trust LCME's decisions. They research schools a lot more than any of us do. New schools like CNU, CMUS, UNLV will probably have hiccups, but they're still operating for a reason.

 

[CQREZ]

I don't even have any connections to CNU but the double-standard here... "LCME would ding any bad schools", "wait uh, CNU is just the exception that proves the rule".
Aside from your baseless assumptions and hilarious disclaimer at the end, widen your scope and just focus on getting into a US-MD school to avoid reapplying a 3rd time. I personally trust LCME's decisions. They research schools a lot more than any of us do. New schools like CNU, CMUS, UNLV will probably have hiccups, but they're still operating for a reason.

This right here! I feel like CNU, gets so much dislike just because its for-profit.

 

[Lawpy]

I don't even have any connections to CNU but the double-standard here... "LCME would ding any bad schools", "wait uh, CNU is just the exception that proves the rule".
Aside from your baseless assumptions and hilarious disclaimer at the end, widen your scope and just focus on getting into a US-MD school to avoid reapplying a 3rd time. I personally trust LCME's decisions. They research schools a lot more than any of us do. New schools like CNU, CMUS, UNLV will probably have hiccups, but they're still operating for a reason.

There are certain reasons why CNU got accredited by the LCME when they should not have been but they are beyond the scope of the thread as stated in OP. However, even then, you are falsely assuming that CNU is a school that “a significant portion of the student body might not get residencies“ or “has high attrition rates” (this is what OP means by bad schools). I have not seen cases where CNU meets either of them, but these are major issues that any MD school would get in major trouble with LCME.

This right here! I feel like CNU, gets so much dislike just because its for-profit.

Wrong. See here: Do people here still hate California Northstate?

Why NOT to apply to CNU (from the wise gyngyn)

1. Their method of selecting the inaugural class was slapdash. They didn't use AMCAS, just faxes and PayPal. This disregard for modern systematic processing makes one wonder if their profit motive was more important than thoughtful consideration.

2. This class ended up with twice as many men as women. If their mission precludes thoughtful evaluation of candidates, one

3. A review of faculty credentials reveals a significant lack of scholarship.

4. In a state that is at least 30% Mexican American, they only had a single representative from this group.

5. Because of these and other points too numerous to mention, the PD's I know are reluctant to consider these graduates in the same light as other applicants at the moment.

FYI, CNU is on LCME's radar, and not in a good way.

I'd like to hear if the wise @Med Ed has anything else to add.

 

[Staco]

There are certain reasons why CNU got accredited by the LCME when they should not have been but they are beyond the scope of the thread as stated in OP. However, even then, you are falsely assuming that CNU is a school that “a significant portion of the student body might not get residencies“ or “has high attrition rates” (this is what OP means by bad schools). I have not seen cases where CNU meets either of them, but these are major issues that any MD school would get in major trouble with LCME.
Wrong. See here: Do people here still hate California Northstate?

By that logic, are UNLV and CMUS also bad schools? We don't know match rates of new schools, because they are new.

That's the first time I've seen that topic, but this response by a supposed resident seems to contradict a lot of what was said. That 3rd point particularly. To judge a new school for not accepting as many Mexican-Americans is simply idiotic. Any qualified URM can get into an elite school of their choosing, mine has plenty. I wouldn't be surprised if a ton of "lower-tier" and new medical schools had similar numbers. Assuming his stats are right, where is the hate for Touro? Why go to CNU when you can go to UCSF? That doesn't mean the former is terrible per-se, and it definitely is out of that school's hands.

Those arguments absolutely scream of tunnel vision. You have a bias, and you're reaching for any evidence to "support" it.

This class ended up with twice as many men as women. If their mission precludes thoughtful evaluation of candidates, one

Oh no, their inaugural class has ~40/20 ratio instead of a perfect 50/50! Sorry that they accepted the most qualified students to represent the inaugural class. Not to mention the ratio is a lot better for the class of 2020 and 2021...

A review of faculty credentials reveals a significant lack of scholarship.
One of those "outdated complaints" without actually fact-checking. Check again. Looking at their list, multiple doctors graduating from Harvard Med, USC, UCLA, UCSD. PhDs graduating from Yale, UCLA, etc. Heck, their Anatomy Course Director is the director at UCSF, but I guess that school is pretty shady too?

In a state that is at least 30% Mexican American, they only had a single representative from this group.
This really gets my jimmies rustled. There is no doubt CNU is a new school that warrants some skepticism. But to criticize them for this? What are they supposed to do, accept a number of Latinos or African Americans with <20 MCAT scores just to appeal to SDN? Not to mention that number again is higher for 2020. Any under-represented students with adequate stats and no red flags can get into a much better CA school.
Check out how many people identify as Hispanic in Touro's entire 2016-2017 university (1000+ people). Only 2%. Because why would they go there when they could get into a top-notch MD program? Where's that criticism?

Because of these and other points too numerous to mention, the PD's I know are reluctant to consider these graduates in the same light as other applicants at the moment.
BS. I'm a new resident who did plenty of away rotations and visits in the Sacramento area (Sutters and Kaisers in Sacramento, Roseville, Napa, etc). The doctors and PDs I've talked to have no critiques of these students and have actually volunteered their time to be preceptors.

 

[Lawpy]

By that logic, are UNLV and CMUS also bad schools? We don't know attrition rates of new schools, because they are new.

That's the first time I've seen that topic, but this response by a supposed resident seems to contradict a lot of what was said. That 3rd point particularly. To judge a new school for not accepting as many Mexican-Americans is simply idiotic. Any qualified URM can get into an elite school of their choosing, mine has plenty. I wouldn't be surprised if a ton of "lower-tier" and new medical schools had similar numbers. Assuming his stats are right, where is the hate for Touro? Why go to CNU when you can go to UCSF? That doesn't mean the former is terrible per-se, and it definitely is out of that school's hands.

I’m saying OP’s definition of bad schools doesn’t really apply to CNU. The attrition rates are unknown and we don’t know about their match lists. There are concerns that CNU is in danger of losing accreditation, and it’s the only for-profit MD school.

CNU is an unusual case. No other school is for profit or at dangerous risk of losing accreditation. A few schools were put on probation for reasons that are far minor to attrition rates and residency placement. The issues OP is outlining are pretty damning and any MD school facing them would run into major trouble.

I’m just focusing on OP’s question at hand. There is no US MD school that is bad per their definition. And CNU is the only unusual case.

 

[Staco]

I’m saying OP’s definition of bad schools doesn’t really apply to CNU. The attrition rates are unknown and we don’t know about their match lists. There are concerns that CNU is in danger of losing accreditation, and it’s the only for-profit MD school.

CNU is an unusual case. No other school is for profit or at dangerous risk of losing accreditation. A few schools were put on probation for reasons that are far minor to attrition rates and residency placement. The issues OP is outlining are pretty damning and any MD school facing them would run into major trouble.

I’m just focusing on OP’s question at hand. There is no US MD school that is bad per their definition. And CNU is the only unusual case.

I haven't looked, but is CNU in danger of losing accreditation? As far as I know, they're still under provisional. For as much hate as they get here, LCME didn't put them on probation when they by all means could have.

That thread you linked is a dense one. I did find enjoyment reading all the backtracking from our board experts though.
This post seems like it deserved more attention

At a certain point I think you're living in a (tax-payer funded) fantasy world if you think the perfect distribution of skin tones and genitals is more important than matriculating a class that you know can take a beating and sail the choppy waters of inaugurating a program. Whether or not you think that makes CNU the Satan-incarnate of the medical world is on you. I personally don't think they were being particularly unreasonable given the arbitrary treatment leading up to it. I'm not saying everything was pretty as a result of that decision, but it was pragmatic. Cash flow issues are the top reason why start-ups fail after lack of market need; there are only so many times you can beg investors for more money if you don't have results in hand. In fact, just seeing the exponential improvement in 2020's educational experience (and even the difference between how polished classes in 2019's M1 vs. 2019's M2 year were) tells me that yes, had they waited a year, things probably would have been smoother. Would I make a different decision knowing what I do now? Absolutely not. I love this band of misfits and can't imagine my life having turned out any other way.

 

[donutzebra]

Thank you for your help and explanation! Looking back at my post, I can see that, even though I added the disclaimer at the end, any CNU student could easily and understandably be offended by what I wrote, and I apologize for that.

Just for clarification, the sentences in my third paragraph are meant to be examples of what I'd consider a "bad school." Not all of them need to be true for a school to be considered "bad." If just one of them is true, for instance if a school puts profits above students or is at risk of losing accreditation, then I probably would not want to apply there. As my knowledge of characteristics used to judge the quality of medical schools is not nearly as in-depth as, say, Lawper's or Goro's, there could be other characteristics of "bad" schools that I'm missing in my third paragraph. So I think the most important part is "US MD schools applicants should 'watch out for.'" In other words, if a pre-med applicant were constructing a broad school list, what schools would you point to and say, "I can't recommend that school because you wouldn't want to matriculate there for X reasons..."

 

[Lawpy]

Thank you for your help and explanation! Looking back at my post, I can see that, even though I added the disclaimer at the end, any CNU student could easily and understandably be offended by what I wrote, and I apologize for that.

Just for clarification, the sentences in my third paragraph are meant to be examples of what I'd consider a "bad school." Not all of them need to be true for a school to be considered "bad." If just one of them is true, for instance if a school puts profits above students or is at risk of losing accreditation, then I probably would not want to apply there. As my knowledge of characteristics used to judge the quality of medical schools is not nearly as in-depth as, say, Lawper's or Goro's, there could be other characteristics of "bad" schools that I'm missing in my third paragraph. So I think the most important part is "US MD schools applicants should 'watch out for.'" In other words, if a pre-med applicant were constructing a broad school list, what schools would you point to and say, "I can't recommend that school because you wouldn't want to matriculate there for X reasons..."

It’s just CNU that you need to be careful. Any other US MD school is fine.

 

[Staco]

It’s just CNU that you need to be careful. Any other US MD school is fine.

How about CMUS and UNLV using the argument of unknown attrition rates and match lists? Seems like a double-standard to me.
I honestly know nothing about what's going on accreditation-wise other than what's listed on the webpage. But I'm just curious now. Again, how are they at a dangerous risk if they weren't placed on probation?

OP, we don't know your stats. If you're a borderline candidate, in my opinion, any USMD or USDO will be fine. I take no offense to your original post as I have no connections to the school. I'm typically just a lurker who helps out on my school's application thread when I see appropriate, but the double-standards regarding some DO and schools like CNU bug me.

 

[CQREZ]

How about CMUS and UNLV using the argument of unknown attrition rates and match lists? Seems like a double-standard to me.
I honestly know nothing about what's going on accreditation-wise other than what's listed on the webpage. But I'm just curious now. Again, how are they at a dangerous risk if they weren't placed on probation?

OP, we don't know your stats. If you're a borderline candidate, in my opinion, any USMD or USDO will be fine.

From what I know most schools are pretty proactive in making changes to get off probation and there currently isn't any school that has lost accreditation.

 

[Lawpy]

How about CMUS and UNLV using the argument of unknown attrition rates and match lists? Seems like a double-standard to me.
I honestly know nothing about what's going on accreditation-wise other than what's listed on the webpage. But I'm just curious now. Again, how are they at a dangerous risk if they weren't placed on probation?

OP, we don't know your stats. If you're a borderline candidate, in my opinion, any USMD or USDO will be fine. I take no offense to your original post as I have no connections to the school. I'm typically just a lurker who helps out on my school's application thread when I see appropriate, but the double-standards regarding some DO and schools like CNU bug me.

Those schools are fine. New schools will have unknown attrition rates and match lists. The issue with CNU lies largely in its for-profit status and its decision to deny students access to federal loans. I don’t know how or why CNU got accreditation but it was a major controversy.

Another thread to take a look is this: Northstate again...

 

[Staco]

Another thread to take a look is this: Northstate again...

All I'm seeing in these threads is the same arguments being regurgitated while ignoring rebuttals or using strawman fallacies. It really doesn't paint our experts in the greatest of lights.

 

[Lawpy]

All I'm seeing in these threads is the same arguments being regurgitated while ignoring rebuttals or using strawman fallacies. It really doesn't paint our experts in the greatest of lights.

We can discuss it further in one of those threads.

 

[efle]

There are no places with attrition anywhere near Caribbean schools. Admissions is too competitive for that - remember all you need on the MCAT to predict success in medical curriculum is a 500. If you just want to be a doctor, it's safe to enroll anywhere, even a brand new program.

The one time to worry is if you have very high expectations. Take a look at some of the lists of new schools that had their first match in recent years. For example here is Oakland Beaumont's very first match list. Huge tendency to home match and you can count the number of competitive specialty matches on one hand. So if you'd be perfectly happy staying at Vegas for IM or EM or something like that, then no sweat being in the first cohort at UNLV. If your dream is to match something competitive on the other side of the country, then yeah you might think twice before putting a new school on your list unless you plan to be an outlier.

 

[MareNostrummm]

There are no places with attrition anywhere near Caribbean schools. Admissions is too competitive for that - remember all you need on the MCAT to predict success in medical curriculum is a 500. If you just want to be a doctor, it's safe to enroll anywhere, even a brand new program.

The one time to worry is if you have very high expectations. Take a look at some of the lists of new schools that had their first match in recent years. For example here is Oakland Beaumont's very first match list. Huge tendency to home match and you can count the number of competitive specialty matches on one hand. So if you'd be perfectly happy staying at Vegas for IM or EM or something like that, then no sweat being in the first cohort at UNLV. If your dream is to match something competitive on the other side of the country, then yeah you might think twice before putting a new school on your list unless you plan to be an outlier.

To be fair they only had a class size of 47.

 

[Goro]

As someone who might have to reapply in the future and expand my school list, and also simply out of curiosity, I'd like to know. Besides the obvious California Northstate University, are there any US MD schools that are actually bad?

I don't mean schools that are "low-tier" but will still ensure that all students who put in the honest effort and make sound decisions in residency applications will be able to get residencies and become full-fledged doctors in the US. I also don't mean schools that are just located in places many students might not want to live. I also don't mean schools that have lifestyle requirements that most students wouldn't agree with (e.g. Loma Linda, which I won't be applying to).

I mean US MD schools that have characteristics of Caribbean schools. US MD schools applicants should "watch out for." US MD schools that make you go "Umm, you really don't want to go there." US MD schools from which a significant portion of the student body might not get residencies. US MD schools with high attrition rates. US MD schools that put profits above students. US MD schools in serious danger of losing accreditation. Do any exist besides CNU?

Also, I know I mentioned CNU a lot, but please don't turn this thread into a "CNU isn't that bad" argument. I'm sure there are plenty of other threads for that.

Nope, none. Rosy Franklin sometimes gets flak for not having a teaching hospital.

The only thing risky about a new school is that it just takes time for the faculty to gel in giving delivering a curriulum. The students may get annoyed, but they still end up doing OK.

I'd send my own kids to WSU, Cali Med, UNLV (despite the heat) etc.

 

[efle]

To be fair they only had a class size of 47.

Very true, but even with 50 I think it makes the point when 2-3 people matched competitively outside their own hospital.

For those interested in more, here is Florida Atlantic first match (they've since taken it down off their website and left 2016 and after).
And here is Cooper rowan

Pretty consistently there are a couple people that manage to match neurosurg, ENT, urology etc even in first cohorts at new schools!

 

[mwsapphire]

Very true, but even with 50 I think it makes the point when 2-3 people matched competitively outside their own hospital.

For those interested in more, here is Florida Atlantic first match (they've since taken it down off their website and left 2016 and after).
And here is Cooper rowan

Pretty consistently there are a couple people that manage to match neurosurg, ENT, urology etc even in first cohorts at new schools!

I mean, is OUWB a lower ranked med school? Couldn't that have something to do with it? Whereas Hofstra is new but is rising the ranks faster, I'd imagine their first match list will be more appealing.
Just a thought, not sure if its really the case.

 

[WingedOx]

Very true, but even with 50 I think it makes the point when 2-3 people matched competitively outside their own hospital.

For those interested in more, here is Florida Atlantic first match (they've since taken it down off their website and left 2016 and after).
And here is Cooper rowan

Pretty consistently there are a couple people that manage to match neurosurg, ENT, urology etc even in first cohorts at new schools!

However, as someone who's from Michigan and knows those places well, I think you're underestimating the quality of Oakland's list.

 

[efle]

It wasn't my intention to say their home matches/regional matches weren't good! Just that it looks like you're an outlier if you match elsewhere especially in something competitive. Maybe they just didn't have many people interested in doing that.

 

[VeitVat]

The 3 private Puerto Rican medical schools. True - the are “LCME accredited “ but it’s affirmative action accreditation. Mainland U.S. schools with their standards would never be allowed to operate.

They barely sponsor residency programs (their students rotate through hospitals some of which have residencies of their own or none

Ponce School of Medicine: Psychiatry residency and fellowships in Addiction, Child Psych and Psychosomatic Med.

Universidad Central del Caribe: Internal Medicine.

San Juan Bautista: None.

They don’t have their “own” university hospitals. Ponce splits between a third world county hospital many miles away and a couple of half way decent community private hospitals.

Caribe’s “University” Hospital is a decayed third world county hospital barely operating 100 beds total.

San Juan Bautista has no hospital of their “own”.

They rely on primitive lecture formats where you squeeze all students in their very few lecture rooms. They don’t have the facilities or staff to do small group conferences.

All three feature dismal research and funding.

Caribe has gone further to discredit the credibility of their graduates by opening a school of chiropractic in their tiny little campus. It heavily promotes its alternative (acupuncture/chiropractic/massage) treatment center as one of its major community service initiatives.

 

[AnatomyGrey12]

I mean, is OUWB a lower ranked med school? Couldn't that have something to do with it? Whereas Hofstra is new but is rising the ranks faster, I'd imagine their first match list will be more appealing.
Just a thought, not sure if its really the case.

No

 

[Saifa]

True - the are “LCME accredited “ but it’s affirmative action accreditation. Mainland U.S. schools with their standards would never be allowed to operate.

Wow. What an incredibly ignorant comment.

 

[PreMedMissteps]

Stay away from Northstate....the rest of the US MD schools are fine

 

[mwsapphire]

Wow. What an incredibly ignorant comment.

Studies show that seventy-eight (78) percent of white people who use the phrase " affirmative action" have no ****ing clue what they're talking about.

 

[Professional Student]

Studies show that seventy-eight (78) percent of white people who use the phrase " affirmative action" have no ****ing clue what they're talking about.

So are you a racist because you assumed they’re white and made up an ignorant statistic in response to an ignorant comment?

 

[JermanH]

Listen, as a re-applicant, I don't think you get to be that picky. If it's a US accredited MD, you're in good-standing.

 

[MD-2021]

Wow. What an incredibly ignorant comment.

He is right that the Puerto Rican schools exist solely to produce physicians to fill healthcare needs in Puerto Rico

 

[PreMedMissteps]

He is right that the Puerto Rican schools exist solely to produce physicians to fill healthcare needs in Puerto Rico

300 seats for a territory whose population is only 3.3 million. Wonder why. And why not combine somehow to perhaps offer better facilities, etc.

 

[Saifa]

He is right that the Puerto Rican schools exist solely to produce physicians to fill healthcare needs in Puerto Rico

But does this mean schools like TCMC and Marshall are also merely getting by on "affirmative action accreditation?" This person might even be from PR but the comment still sucks. I know a lot of Puerto Ricans that would be pretty angry at the implication that the legitimacy of their ability to educate doctors is solely because of "affirmative action."

 

[mwsapphire]

So are you a racist because you assumed they’re white and made up an ignorant statistic in response to an ignorant comment?

Did I ever say I thought the person who made that comment was white?
Ntm, most Americans, and most people on this site, are white, so that's no a "racist " assumption. It's just the most likely case because statistics.

 

[VeitVat]

Wow. What an incredibly ignorant comment.

I presented my evidence to support my categorizing PR private school accreditation as not up to par to that of schools located in the mainland US (irregardless of whether they are historically black or not.)

Your counter argument was to call it “ignorant .” One can only assume you did so because it did not fit your narrative. You obviously are not as intimate with those schools realities as I am.

Finally, I was explicitly referring to the 3 private schools- which means I clearly excluded the “state” funded university of Puerto Rico, which is able to meet mainland minimum standards by virtue of local government financial support of the institution.

 

[Saifa]

I presented my evidence to support my categorizing PR private school accreditation as not up to par to that of schools located in the mainland US (irregardless of whether they are historically black or not.)

Your counter argument was to call it “ignorant .” One can only assume you did so because it did not fit your narrative. You obviously are not as intimate with those schools realities as I am.

Yes, your use of "affirmative action accreditation" was in fact ignorant. I am not a PR native but I have spent time on the island and know people who have gone through its many educational systems. Your comment is an insult regardless of your "intimacy" with these programs. Tell a Puerto Rican physician that their credentials are "affirmative action" and see what kind of attitude you're met with.

 

[Professional Student]

Did I ever say I thought the person who made that comment was white?

Yes... lol

Ntm, most Americans, and most people on this site, are white, so that's no a "racist " assumption. It's just the most likely case because statistics.

Tell yourself whatever you need to.

 

[nachocheese1]

Maybe this could be of help--published on US News today. US News annually generate "peer assessment" and "residency director assessment" scores (that subsequently get factored in their list of the "Best Medical Schools").

Per their methodology:

"In fall 2017, medical and osteopathic school deans, deans of academic affairs and heads of internal medicine or directors of admissions were asked to rate programs on a scale from 1 (marginal) to 5 (outstanding). Those individuals who did not know enough about a school to evaluate it fairly were asked to mark "don't know."
Respondents were asked to rate program quality for both research and primary care programs separately on a single survey instrument. Thirty-one percent of those surveyed responded.
A school's score is the average rating of all the respondents who rated it; average scores were then sorted in descending order. Responses of "don't know" counted neither for nor against a school."

Each medical school in the United States is given a "residency director assessment" score, it seems, regardless of their participation in the survey (with the exception of Arkansas College of Osteopathic Medicine in their "primary care rank").

Regarding their "research rank", twenty medical schools have "residency director assessment" scores <2.0. Three of these are US MD schools, and two of these are US MD schools that aren't CNU--Universidad Central Del Caribe, and San Juan Bautista School of Medicine. Regarding their "primary care rank", eight medical schools have "residency director assessment" scores <2.0. Four of these are US MD schools, and three of these are US MD schools that aren't CNU--Universidad Central Del Caribe, and San Juan Bautista School of Medicine, and Ponce School of Medicine.

 

[Go2Mars]

This right here! I feel like CNU, gets so much dislike just because its for-profit.

This is a very late reply to this thread, but I think the discussion about this school should continue on either this thread or a new thread. CNUCOM is a scam. They have begun to deny their BS/MD undergrad students who received the necessary MCAT and GPA scores from matriculation into the medical school due to tension between the undergrad and the medical school, they have multiple issues with the surrounding city and its residents(Elk Grove) after they tried to build a gigantic trauma center/hospital on top of existing businesses and right across from a residential neighborhood and wetland reserve, and they still refuse to provide financial aid to students who have been asking continuously for the past few years. Many of my friends made the mistake of joining CNU a few years ago, and they continuously tell me that @Goro and the other SDN members were correct. I may begin a new thread to begin to warn incoming students

 

[Goro]

This is a very late reply to this thread, but I think the discussion about this school should continue on either this thread or a new thread. CNUCOM is a scam. They have begun to deny their BS/MD undergrad students who received the necessary MCAT and GPA scores from matriculation into the medical school due to tension between the undergrad and the medical school, they have multiple issues with the surrounding city and its residents(Elk Grove) after they tried to build a gigantic trauma center/hospital on top of existing businesses and right across from a residential neighborhood and wetland reserve, and they still refuse to provide financial aid to students who have been asking continuously for the past few years. Many of my friends made the mistake of joining CNU a few years ago, and they continuously tell me that @Goro and the other SDN members were correct. I may begin a new thread to begin to warn incoming students

What's the latest with the hospital?

BTW, not surprised at any of this.

I've also heard that their pharmacy school is in really big trouble.

 

[Go2Mars]

What's the latest with the hospital?

BTW, not surprised at any of this.

I've also heard that their pharmacy school is in really big trouble.

The hospital was rejected by the Elk Grove planning commission after hundreds of Elk Grove residents called in and went berzerk on CNU. The residents mentioned first-hand stories such as CNU trying to destroy businesses, knowingly building a hospital in a flood plain, sending their own representatives who disguised themselves as Elk Grove residents to the city hall meetings, and knowingly building a massive hospital next to a residential area/wildlife refuge. The hospital will most likely be rejected by the Elk Grove city council as well. This school is pretty much hated by the citizens in Sacramento County, and many CNUCOM students are very upset at their administration. I have linked an article below. I will most likely make a thread as well soon. All premed students need to be aware of these issues before committing to this medical school in the coming years.

Elk Grove planning commission recommends denial of proposed CNU hospital

In a late-night vote, the Elk Grove planning commission voted 3-0 to recommend denial of the California Northstate University plans for a 400-bed teaching hospital.

www.abc10.com

 

[KnightDoc]

This is a very late reply to this thread, but I think the discussion about this school should continue on either this thread or a new thread. CNUCOM is a scam. They have begun to deny their BS/MD undergrad students who received the necessary MCAT and GPA scores from matriculation into the medical school due to tension between the undergrad and the medical school, they have multiple issues with the surrounding city and its residents(Elk Grove) after they tried to build a gigantic trauma center/hospital on top of existing businesses and right across from a residential neighborhood and wetland reserve, and they still refuse to provide financial aid to students who have been asking continuously for the past few years. Many of my friends made the mistake of joining CNU a few years ago, and they continuously tell me that @Goro and the other SDN members were correct. I may begin a new thread to begin to warn incoming students

What "tension"? I'm the furthest thing from a CNU fan, but "tension" between the med school and UG sounds like total nonsense, especially because CNU is not a full blown university catering to UGs.

Their undergraduate program serves no purpose other than to feed people into their med school. There is almost certainly something you are not telling us, or that your "friends" are not telling you, because it makes absolutely zero sense that they wouldn't want candidates that met their standards to pay them tuition and attend their crappy for-profit med school.

 

[Go2Mars]

What "tension"? I'm the furthest thing from a CNU fan, but "tension" between the med school and UG sounds like total nonsense, especially because CNU is not a full blown university catering to UGs.

Their undergraduate program serves no purpose other than to feed people into their med school. There is almost certainly something you are not telling us, or that your "friends" are not telling you, because it makes absolutely zero sense that they wouldn't want candidates that met their standards to pay them tuition and attend their crappy for-profit med school.

I was a "CNU fan" until 2 weeks ago when I began to read about the hospital and the current issues at the school. The purpose of the undergrad (CNUCHS) initially was to provide a constant feed of students to the medical school. However, the tension now is that CNUCOM feels the BS/MD students are not up to the par of outside applicants. CNUCOM is receiving plenty of outside applications now, so there is no purpose for the undergrad now. Three separate MS1s at CNUCOM have told me that the professors mentioned to them that the CNUCOM administration was very mad after the 2019-2020 interviews since CNU undergraduate students had applications that were very weak compared to outside application. In addition, the CNU undergraduate students are currently fighting with the CNU medical school admissions/administration after several BS/MD kids with 519 MCAT and 524 MCAT scores were waitlisted/denied even though BS/MD students were supposed to be guaranteed acceptances if they received a 510+ MCAT and 3.5 GPA. So @KnightDoc, I agree it makes no sense that they wouldn't want their candidates to continue since those undergrad students are paying thousands in tuition. This whole situation is making me realize CNUCOM is not a trustworthy organization

 

[KnightDoc]

I was a "CNU fan" until 2 weeks ago when I began to read about the hospital and the current issues at the school. The purpose of the undergrad (CNUCHS) initially was to provide a constant feed of students to the medical school. However, the tension now is that CNUCOM feels the BS/MD students are not up to the par of outside applicants. CNUCOM is receiving plenty of outside applications now, so there is no purpose for the undergrad now. Three separate MS1s at CNUCOM have told me that the professors mentioned to them that the CNUCOM administration was very mad after the 2019-2020 interviews since CNU undergraduate students had applications that were very weak compared to outside application. In addition, the CNU undergraduate students are currently fighting with the CNU medical school admissions/administration after several BS/MD kids with 519 MCAT and 524 MCAT scores were waitlisted/denied even though BS/MD students were supposed to be guaranteed acceptances if they received a 510+ MCAT and 3.5 GPA. So @KnightDoc, I agree it makes no sense that they wouldn't want their candidates to continue since those undergrad students are paying thousands in tuition. This whole situation is making me realize CNUCOM is not a trustworthy organization

Wow. Just wow. If you go back, you'll see I was bashing the CNU business model, and received some push back on SDN from people who felt they were filling a necessary niche. I understand them preferring stronger candidates, and that's an ample justification for cutting back or killing the BS/MD program. However, I still think something else might be going on, since it makes absolutely no sense for a for-profit to break a contract and risk being sued by people who paid them a ton of money for the promise of a MD admission they are entitled to under the terms of the contract.

With respect to fin aid, it's pretty naive for someone who knowingly signs up for a for-profit experience to expect that. Do they also go to Macy's with their FAFSA and ask for fin aid? Fin aid at a for profit will almost always mean loans, unless someone who actually has better options is willing to take a scholarship in order to be a "loss leader" for the school in its efforts to attract even more, higher stat, full pay matriculants. It's honestly crazy for anyone who signs up for CNU because they have nothing else and don't want to go to the Caribbean or take a chance on a reapplication to expect after the fact fin aid, so no sympathy there.

With respect to the proposed hospital, NIMBY is a thing, everywhere, with everything nowadays, so that's not unique to CNU or Elk Grove, so that's not a reason to hate on an institution. The fact that it set up as a for-profit, solely to exploit the supply/demand imbalance for med school seats in CA, and the eagerness of some, particularly well to do ORM parents who desperately want their kids to have US MDs, is a reason to be wary. That said, those who signed up unfortunately received exactly what they bargained for -- a sleazy organization totally established to profit from your desperation. Assuming you are not already part of the magic, you are lucky that you found out now. If you are already sucked in, I'm sorry, but, as you said in your OP, everyone with access to SDN was warned.

 

[Mad Jack]

There are certain reasons why CNU got accredited by the LCME when they should not have been but they are beyond the scope of the thread as stated in OP. However, even then, you are falsely assuming that CNU is a school that “a significant portion of the student body might not get residencies“ or “has high attrition rates” (this is what OP means by bad schools). I have not seen cases where CNU meets either of them, but these are major issues that any MD school would get in major trouble with LCME.



Wrong. See here: Do people here still hate California Northstate?

Eh, I wouldn't not apply to a school that could grant me an MD just because they aren't diverse enough. Yeah, I would make them the lowest on my list when I was accepted, but no MD versus a school that isn't the most diverse is not the biggest of deals. With regard to research credentials, that's about where most DO schools are at and doesn't mean you'll have students with bad clinical skills. Yeah, they're for profit. But many of these same issues were brought up with RVUCOM on the DO side of things and all of that panned out just fine. While I'm not a fan of for-profit medical education, I still wouldn't say someone should write off a school that is LCME- accredited when it may be their best shot at becoming a doctor if no one else takes them

 

[mwsapphire]

I was a "CNU fan" until 2 weeks ago when I began to read about the hospital and the current issues at the school. The purpose of the undergrad (CNUCHS) initially was to provide a constant feed of students to the medical school. However, the tension now is that CNUCOM feels the BS/MD students are not up to the par of outside applicants. CNUCOM is receiving plenty of outside applications now, so there is no purpose for the undergrad now. Three separate MS1s at CNUCOM have told me that the professors mentioned to them that the CNUCOM administration was very mad after the 2019-2020 interviews since CNU undergraduate students had applications that were very weak compared to outside application. In addition, the CNU undergraduate students are currently fighting with the CNU medical school admissions/administration after several BS/MD kids with 519 MCAT and 524 MCAT scores were waitlisted/denied even though BS/MD students were supposed to be guaranteed acceptances if they received a 510+ MCAT and 3.5 GPA. So @KnightDoc, I agree it makes no sense that they wouldn't want their candidates to continue since those undergrad students are paying thousands in tuition. This whole situation is making me realize CNUCOM is not a trustworthy organization

Wow, the exact purpose of a combined program is not having to be as " Good" as outside applicants and just meeting mandatory minimums and getting in. That's literally the point of a BS/MD or BS/DO , to basically get into med school coming out of high school. What a scam. I hope those kids have a chance at other programs.

 

[Lawpy]

Eh, I wouldn't not apply to a school that could grant me an MD just because they aren't diverse enough. Yeah, I would make them the lowest on my list when I was accepted, but no MD versus a school that isn't the most diverse is not the biggest of deals. With regard to research credentials, that's about where most DO schools are at and doesn't mean you'll have students with bad clinical skills. Yeah, they're for profit. But many of these same issues were brought up with RVUCOM on the DO side of things and all of that panned out just fine. While I'm not a fan of for-profit medical education, I still wouldn't say someone should write off a school that is LCME- accredited when it may be their best shot at becoming a doctor if no one else takes them

I sort of agree here and partially disagree with the 2018 Lawpy post. A lot has changed in 3 years

 

[Mad Jack]

I sort of agree here and partially disagree with the 2018 Lawpy post. A lot has changed in 3 years

Oh damn, I didn't realize this was a necrobumped thread

 

[Vivid_Quail]

Can’t wait to read the court filing when the kid with a 524 MCAT sues for $6 million in lost career earnings because CNU broke their BS/MD agreement.

Unfortunately, CNU probably has some bull**** clause that says they can reject anyone if the applicant doesn’t meet some vague criteria of “professionalism” or some other buzzword.

 

[mwsapphire]

Can’t wait to read the court filing when the kid with a 524 MCAT sues for $6 million in lost career earnings because CNU broke their BS/MD agreement.

Unfortunately, CNU probably has some bull**** clause that says they can reject anyone if the applicant doesn’t meet some vague criteria of “professionalism” or some other buzzword.

They may be able to apply normally if they have other ECs and were set on getting their BS degree. But it's still wrong.

 

[KnightDoc]

Wow, the exact purpose of a combined program is not having to be as " Good" as outside applicants and just meeting mandatory minimums and getting in. That's literally the point of a BS/MD or BS/DO , to basically get into med school coming out of high school. What a scam. I hope those kids have a chance at other programs.

Not exactly. You might be right, looking at it strictly from the student's perspective, but the actual point from the school's perspective is to scoop up nervous, risk averse, high stat HS students who would never otherwise look at their UG or med school. And that's where the model has apparently broken down for CNU.

As a new school without a fully functioning UG program, literally no one was looking at them before they opened. They don't run a normal UG school that people would want to attend without the inducement of a guaranteed admission to the med school, and they had no idea what their future med school applicants would look like, so they wanted to build a pipeline. Perfectly understandable.

As it is apparently turning out, their business model seems to be attracting full pay, reasonably high stat premeds who are not finding success elsewhere, and these people are apparently deemed more likely to succeed in their program and not jeopardize their accreditation, so they school prefers them over their weaker BS/MD students. Again, perfectly understandable, and maybe an excellent reason to cut back on their BS/MD program now that they see what their regular admission pool looks like.

None of this explains why they would break a contract and refuse to honor a guarantee extended to well qualified, full pay students who met the terms of the contract, so, without having any details, it seems VERY likely that there is more to the story that is not being shared with us. There just does not seem to be a motivation to engage in such a scam. They have no reason to want to attract people to their limited UG program other than to serve as a pipeline to the med school, and have no reason to court bad publicity and potential litigation by breaking contracts with students.