Besides CNU, are there any other bad US MD schools?

[Vivid_Quail]

Not exactly. You might be right, looking at it strictly from the student's perspective, but the actual point from the school's perspective is to scoop up nervous, risk averse, high stat HS students who would never otherwise look at their UG or med school. And that's where the model has apparently broken down for CNU.

As a new school without a fully functioning UG program, literally no one was looking at them before they opened. They don't run a normal UG school that people would want to attend without the inducement of a guaranteed admission to the med school, and they had no idea what their future med school applicants would look like, so they wanted to build a pipeline. Perfectly understandable.

As it is apparently turning out, their business model seems to be attracting full pay, reasonably high stat premeds who are not finding success elsewhere, and these people are apparently deemed more likely to succeed in their program and not jeopardize their accreditation, so they school prefers them over their weaker BS/MD students. Again, perfectly understandable, and maybe an excellent reason to cut back on their BS/MD program now that they see what their regular admission pool looks like.

None of this explains why they would break a contract and refuse to honor a guarantee extended to well qualified, full pay students who met the terms of the contract, so, without having any details, it seems VERY likely that there is more to the story that is not being shared with us. There just does not seem to be a motivation to engage in such a scam. They have no reason to want to attract people to their limited UG program other than to serve as a pipeline to the med school, and have no reason to court bad publicity and potential litigation by breaking contracts with students.

As an aside, can you imagine how neurotic and unhealthy an UG of 100% premeds would be…and premeds who want to go to med school starting in high school no less.

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[KnightDoc]

As an aside, can you imagine how neurotic and unhealthy an UG of 100% premeds would be…and premeds who want to go to med school starting in high school no less.

Yup!!!! But, it's not a real UG -- it really is more of a program to funnel people into the med school. That was always one of the drawbacks to this particular BS/MD program.

To my knowledge, it really was only the most desperate to have a guaranteed med school admission (or their parents!) who chose this over a traditional UG admission, almost always after being rejected by all other BS/MD programs to which they applied. This is what makes it particularly cruel for the school to be pulling the rug out from under them. It's also what makes me think there has to be more here that is not being shared with us, since these parents are PRECISELY the type of people to litigate over a broken contract that results in their marginal darlings being denied a seat they were promised.

 

[EdgeTrimmer]

To me BS part of BSMD at CNU sounds like going to Kumon

 

[mwsapphire]

Not exactly. You might be right, looking at it strictly from the student's perspective, but the actual point from the school's perspective is to scoop up nervous, risk averse, high stat HS students who would never otherwise look at their UG or med school. And that's where the model has apparently broken down for CNU.

As a new school without a fully functioning UG program, literally no one was looking at them before they opened. They don't run a normal UG school that people would want to attend without the inducement of a guaranteed admission to the med school, and they had no idea what their future med school applicants would look like, so they wanted to build a pipeline. Perfectly understandable.

As it is apparently turning out, their business model seems to be attracting full pay, reasonably high stat premeds who are not finding success elsewhere, and these people are apparently deemed more likely to succeed in their program and not jeopardize their accreditation, so they school prefers them over their weaker BS/MD students. Again, perfectly understandable, and maybe an excellent reason to cut back on their BS/MD program now that they see what their regular admission pool looks like.

None of this explains why they would break a contract and refuse to honor a guarantee extended to well qualified, full pay students who met the terms of the contract, so, without having any details, it seems VERY likely that there is more to the story that is not being shared with us. There just does not seem to be a motivation to engage in such a scam. They have no reason to want to attract people to their limited UG program other than to serve as a pipeline to the med school, and have no reason to court bad publicity and potential litigation by breaking contracts with students.

Doesn't matter. That's what the students were going for, and they didn't get it. Okay, maybe the med schools that have these programs are trying to snatch up high stats HS kids to fill their seats ( who are risk averse), but they ( the students) also get the deal of not having to be as competitive as outside applicants. Whether or not that's what she school wants is irrelevant, this is the deal that's promised to the students. My own med school has a 7 year combined program, these people have good stats and MCAT, but they don't have much EC"s because they didn't need as many " box check" activities.


Plenty of elite med schools and elite undergrads do this ( Boston University has a combined program for their med school, and their UGrad is very population with high stats college kids. UPenn has a combined BS/ dental degree program, are you trying to say that High stats HS grads aren't looking UPenn as an undergrad???) CNU's model is uttter crap and I hope those kisd get every penny, and get in to other places. I would hope ADCOMs are lenient to them and their situation, how could a 17/18 y/o HS senior have seen this coming?

 

[EdgeTrimmer]

Doesn't matter. That's what the students were going for, and they didn't get it. Okay, maybe the med schools that have these programs are trying to snatch up high stats HS kids to fill their seats ( who are risk averse), but they ( the students) also get the deal of not having to be as competitive as outside applicants. Whether or not that's what she school wants is irrelevant, this is the deal that's promised to the students. My own med school has a 7 year combined program, these people have good stats and MCAT, but they don't have much EC"s because they didn't need as many " box check" activities.


Plenty of elite med schools and elite undergrads do this ( Boston University has a combined program for their med school, and their UGrad is very population with high stats college kids. UPenn has a combined BS/ dental degree program, are you trying to say that High stats HS grads aren't looking UPenn as an undergrad???) CNU's model is uttter crap and I hope those kisd get every penny, and get in to other places. I would hope ADCOMs are lenient to them and their situation, how could a 17/18 y/o HS senior have seen this coming?

Not sure what was the initial purpose of BSMD programs but they became a magnet for risk averse ORM parents and recruiting high achieving kids who wouldn't otherwise go to same school for UG. I agree Boston Univ is a good school but whatever rankings you check it's not at a T20 UG or T20 medical school and those who get into BU BSMD program have higher stats that their UG admits. BU rarely gives Trustee scholarships to BSMD candidates since they know they are willing to pay.

 

[KnightDoc]

Doesn't matter. That's what the students were going for, and they didn't get it. Okay, maybe the med schools that have these programs are trying to snatch up high stats HS kids to fill their seats ( who are risk averse), but they ( the students) also get the deal of not having to be as competitive as outside applicants. Whether or not that's what she school wants is irrelevant, this is the deal that's promised to the students. My own med school has a 7 year combined program, these people have good stats and MCAT, but they don't have much EC"s because they didn't need as many " box check" activities.


Plenty of elite med schools and elite undergrads do this ( Boston University has a combined program for their med school, and their UGrad is very population with high stats college kids. UPenn has a combined BS/ dental degree program, are you trying to say that High stats HS grads aren't looking UPenn as an undergrad???) CNU's model is uttter crap and I hope those kisd get every penny, and get in to other places. I would hope ADCOMs are lenient to them and their situation, how could a 17/18 y/o HS senior have seen this coming?

I respectfully disagree. That might be what students think they are being promised, but it isn't.

That's the irony of BS/MD programs. Students think they are getting something for nothing, but, in reality, schools are pre-screening them. By only taking high stat, highly accomplished HS students, they are stacking the deck in favor of themselves, and are only taking people highly likely, not only to be successful, but to be so successful that they otherwise wouldn't be interested in either the UG or the med school without the program.

Sure, it doesn't always work out this way, and a few people every year end up slacking off and wouldn't be admitted without the guarantee, but they are NOT the majority of people in these programs, regardless of what HS students and their parents think going in.

And no, I'm not saying high stat people don't look at Penn! I am unfamiliar with dental school admission, but am fairly certain that it is not nearly as competitive as MD admission, so I honestly have no idea what is driving Penn to offer it and not a BS/MD. Come back when Penn offers a BS/MD program and we can talk!!

Edit: Just looking at Penn's website, the BS/DMD is not really a guarantee until after performance is evaluated in junior year (in addition to meeting the admission standards of the dental school, whatever that means, but it sounds a lot like being accepted for admission, just like everyone else who applies! ), so it's really probably not worth talking about. It looks like the program is nothing more than a tool used to recruit awesome applicants away from schools like Harvard and Princeton, with no real guarantee attached.

I personally know someone, whose dad is a dentist who with a Penn dental degree, who could afford to go anywhere, who turned down Penn dental to go to Rutgers, so I'm just not sure how amazing its reputation is, or what going to a top school means in the dental world, so I just don't know what a dental school guarantee means for anyone good enough to be accepted to Penn UG. FWIW, USNWR doesn't even bother ranking dental schools, so there's that!

Apples and oranges compared to something like the BU program, which is designed to pull high stat applicants who would never otherwise consider BU from schools like Penn. While BU is a very fine school, it is far from elite, both UG and med school, unless "elite" means T50 in Boston.

 

[mwsapphire]

I respectfully disagree. That might be what students think they are being promised, but it isn't.

That's the irony of BS/MD programs. Students think they are getting something for nothing, but, in reality, schools are pre-screening them. By only taking high stat, highly accomplished HS students, they are stacking the deck in favor of themselves, and are only taking people highly likely, not only to be successful, but to be so successful that they otherwise wouldn't be interested in either the UG or the med school without the program.

Sure, it doesn't always work out this way, and a few people every year end up slacking off and wouldn't be admitted without the guarantee, but they are NOT the majority of people in these programs, regardless of what HS students and their parents think going in.

And no, I'm not saying high stat people don't look at Penn! I am unfamiliar with dental school admission, but am fairly certain that it is not nearly as competitive as MD admission, so I honestly have no idea what is driving Penn to offer it and not a BS/MD. Come back when Penn offers a BS/MD program and we can talk!!

Edit: Just looking at Penn's website, the BS/DDS is not really a guarantee until after performance is evaluated in junior year, so it's really probably not worth talking about. It looks like the program is nothing more than a tool used to recruit awesome applicants away from schools like Harvard and Princeton, with no real guarantee attached.

I personally know someone, whose dad is a dentist who with a Penn dental degree, who could afford to go anywhere, who turned down Penn dental to go to Rutgers, so I'm just not sure how amazing its reputation is, or what going to a top school means in the dental world, so I just don't know what a dental school guarantee means for anyone good enough the accepted to Penn UG. FWIW, USNWR doesn't even bother ranking dental schools, so there's that!

Apples and oranges compared to something like the BU program, which is designed to pull high stat applicants who would never otherwise consider BU from schools like Penn. While BU is a very fine school, it is far from elite, both UG and med school, unless "elite" means T50 in Boston.

Northwestern/Feinberg has it , too.

Program Overview

www.feinberg.northwestern.edu

Before you come at me with " But maybe they're trying to pull those kids from Harvard!!!!" It's ( Feinberg MD) is ranked number 18, nobody reasonably thinks they will get into a T10 rather than Y20.

BU med is number 29. I mean, do people reasonably think they will get T20 acceptances just because they got into Columbia undergrad, coming out of HS? I don't even think HS kids are that dumb.

 

[EdgeTrimmer]

Northwestern/Feinberg has it , too.

Program Overview

www.feinberg.northwestern.edu

Before you come at me with " But maybe they're trying to pull those kids from Harvard!!!!" It's ( Feinberg MD) is ranked number 18, nobody reasonably thinks they will get into a T10 rather than Y20.

BU med is number 29. I mean, do people reasonably think they will get T20 acceptances just because they got into Columbia undergrad, coming out of HS? I don't even think HS kids are that dumb.

Northwestern cancelled their program this year and so did WashU. Well, my kid declined BU BSMD (I have mentioned more than few times on this site) and turns out to be a good decision. Another kid I know rejected Northwestern and did better than that in traditional path.

 

[mwsapphire]

Northwestern cancelled their program this year and so did WashU. Well, my kid declined BU BSMD (I have mentioned more than few times on this site) and turns out to be a good decision.

My point is it's existance proves that what was described above can't be the only purpose. In theory, those BS/MD kids applied to the combined program a couple of years ago while the Fienberg combined degree was still an option, so....it's a scam that screwed kids out of their deal.

 

[EdgeTrimmer]

My point is it's existance proves that what was described above can't be the only purpose. In theory, those BS/MD kids applied to the combined program a couple of years ago while the Fienberg combined degree was still an option, so....it's a scam that screwed kids out of their deal.

I agree CNU is screwing those kids but as merit or purpose of the BSMD programs are debatable.

 

[KnightDoc]

Northwestern/Feinberg has it , too.

Program Overview

www.feinberg.northwestern.edu

Before you come at me with " But maybe they're trying to pull those kids from Harvard!!!!" It's ( Feinberg MD) is ranked number 18, nobody reasonably thinks they will get into a T10 rather than Y20.

BU med is number 29. I mean, do people reasonably think they will get T20 acceptances just because they got into Columbia undergrad, coming out of HS? I don't even think HS kids are that dumb.

Actually, Northwestern just ended it, and you are exactly right. They apparently felt that they needed it back in the day, but not anymore. You're right -- a T20 UG and med school do not need a BS/MD program to attract top students. They were the only school (along with WashU) that had one, and now neither of them does!!!!!!! There is a reason schools like Albany, Drexel and BU have these programs while schools like Penn, Harvard and NYU don't!

As for BU, T29 is very respectable, but, it's not T20, not T10 and not T5. That said, you are right, they have no problem filling a class with highly talented students. As for the UG, not so much. A BS/MD is a powerful draw for a school like BU (UG) to draw people from Ivies and T20 UGs, as well as to draw full pay students. And this is exactly what they use it for, believe it or not.

 

[KnightDoc]

My point is it's existance proves that what was described above can't be the only purpose. In theory, those BS/MD kids applied to the combined program a couple of years ago while the Fienberg combined degree was still an option, so....it's a scam that screwed kids out of their deal.

But .. it was the only purpose. The fact that it was killed after Northwestern became a top school, but not before, is the proof!!!! The fact that top schools don't offer them while other schools do is further proof. No med school NEEDS them to fill seats, but mid tiers and below use them to pad their stats (assuming they require a MCAT) and UGs use them to pad their stats as well as their full pay enrollment.

 

[mwsapphire]

Actually, Northwestern just ended it, and you are exactly right. They apparently felt that they needed it back in the day, but not anymore. You're right -- a T20 UG and med school do not need a BS/MD program to attract top students. They were the only school (along with WashU) that had one, and now neither of them does!!!!!!! There is a reason schools like Albany, Drexel and BU have these programs while schools like Penn, Harvard and NYU don't!

As for BU, T29 is very respectable, but, it's not T20, not T10 and not T5. That said, you are right, they have no problem filling a class with highly talented students. As for the UG, not so much. A BS/MD is a powerful draw for a school like BU (UG) to draw people from Ivies and T20 UGs, as well as to draw full pay students. And this is exactly what they use it for, believe it or not.

At the time these kids applied to the 7 year CNU BS/MD , the Feinberg program still existed. So...my point still stands. Whatever the CNU's purpose was, they had a deal, and they can't back out of that, no matter what their motive was.

Feinberg was still a top school in the last couple of years of it's combined program.

 

[KnightDoc]

At the time these kids applied to the 7 year CNU BS/MD , the Feinberg program still existed. So...my point still stands. Whatever the CNU's purpose was, they had a deal, and they can't back out of that, no matter what their motive was.

Feinberg was still a top school in the last couple of years of it's combined program.

Yes and yes. I never meant to argue that CNU could break a contract. My point has been that I think it would be crazy for them to do so, since it is full pay students they are screwing over, and they are for-profit, so I'm pretty sure there is more to the story that we are not being told.

As for Feinberg, yes, of course you are correct. They were outliers as the only top school offering a program (along with WashU, that also stopped, and Brown, which is Ivy, but doesn't have a T20 med school). Yes, Brown certainly does use it to draw people away from other top rated UGs, and there is no telling what it would do if it had a T20 med school. The only evidence we have as to what they might do is the lack of a program at EVERY other Ivy with a med school, all of which are T20s!!!!

 

[deleted314957]

Some things never change. Back in 1973 Chicago Medical College would accept marginal gps/mcat (pretty much the only parameters that were counted back then) IF you had lots of money you could “donate”. I did not take their acceptance offer. They were a back-up. They are now named Rosy-Franklin and, I assume, have changed their 50 year old ways.

 

[YCAGA]

Some things never change. Back in 1973 Chicago Medical College would accept marginal gps/mcat (pretty much the only parameters that were counted back then) IF you had lots of money you could “donate”. I did not take their acceptance offer. They were a back-up. They are now named Rosy-Franklin and, I assume, have changed their 50 year old ways.

A lot has changed if an MD school was a “back-up.” Even DO-schools aren't a back up if you get hit by yield protection. Also, back in 1973, I’m pretty sure the Caribbean was a much more viable option. I mean did the match even exist back then? If you had “connections”, I’m sure you could get a residency spot after your 4 years of sipping mojitos.

 

[deleted314957]

A lot has changed if an MD school was a “back-up.” Even DO-schools aren't a back up if you get hit by yield protection. Also, back in 1973, I’m pretty sure the Caribbean was a much more viable option. I mean did the match even exist back then? If you had “connections”, I’m sure you could get a residency spot after your 4 years of sipping mojitos.

Interestingly, I never heard about Caribbean schools when I applied for the class of 1977. Only applied to 5 Chicago schools. Did NOT accept Chicago Medical College. I did not do any match. Was in the military and back then you could pretty much pick what you want after your rotating internship and operational assignment for 1 or 2 years. I did not know anyone who did not do the specialty they wanted.
It was all very different.

 

[YCAGA]

Interestingly, I never heard about Caribbean schools when I applied for the class of 1977. Only applied to 5 Chicago schools. Did NOT accept Chicago Medical College. I did not do any match. Was in the military and back then you could pretty much pick what you want after your rotating internship and operational assignment for 1 or 2 years. I did not know anyone who did not do the specialty they wanted.
It was all very different.

Wow that is really interesting about the military back then. Learn something new every day. I am sure a rotating military internship back in 1977 was quite the experience.

 

[deleted314957]

Wow that is really interesting about the military back then. Learn something new every day. I am sure a rotating military internship back in 1977 was quite the experience.

Try 36 on and 12 off on surgical shock- trauma for 2 months. Pre Nanny state. San Diego Naval Hosp. huge
workhouse.

 

[rafacena]

As someone who might have to reapply in the future and expand my school list, and also simply out of curiosity, I'd like to know. Besides the obvious California Northstate University, are there any US MD schools that are actually bad?

I don't mean schools that are "low-tier" but will still ensure that all students who put in the honest effort and make sound decisions in residency applications will be able to get residencies and become full-fledged doctors in the US. I also don't mean schools that are just located in places many students might not want to live. I also don't mean schools that have lifestyle requirements that most students wouldn't agree with (e.g. Loma Linda, which I won't be applying to).

I mean US MD schools that have characteristics of Caribbean schools. US MD schools applicants should "watch out for." US MD schools that make you go "Umm, you really don't want to go there." US MD schools from which a significant portion of the student body might not get residencies. US MD schools with high attrition rates. US MD schools that put profits above students. US MD schools in serious danger of losing accreditation. Do any exist besides CNU?

Also, I know I mentioned CNU a lot, but please don't turn this thread into a "CNU isn't that bad" argument. I'm sure there are plenty of other threads for that.

What is wrong with the lifestyle in Loma Linda?

 

[KnightDoc]

What is wrong with the lifestyle in Loma Linda?

If you don't already know, it's probably not for you.

 

[rafacena]

If you don't already know, it's probably not for you.

Try me.

 

[KnightDoc]

Try me.

If you really don't know, invest a little time exploring their mission as well as their 286 page student handbook, and ask yourself whether you'd be willing and able to conform in order to earn a MD. It's definitely not for everyone!

 

[rafacena]

If you really don't know, invest a little time exploring their mission as well as their 286 page student handbook, and ask yourself whether you'd be willing and able to conform in order to earn a MD. It's definitely not for everyone!

You must be fun at parties lol.

 

[KnightDoc]

You must be fun at parties lol.

Not Loma Linda fun, but I manage to hold my own.

I honestly just wanted to be careful not to pass judgment, because there are some true believers, and I don't begrudge them their beliefs. As I said, in case you were not baiting the thread and really didn't know, it's pretty notorious and definitely not for everyone.

 

[rafacena]

Not Loma Linda fun, but I manage to hold my own.

I honestly just wanted to be careful not to pass judgment, because there are some true believers, and I don't begrudge them their beliefs. As I said, in case you were not baiting the thread and really didn't know, it's pretty notorious and definitely not for everyone.

Oh gotcha. Sorry, I couldn't tell if you were trying to be ambiguous on purpose or what.