Best country to be a doctor

[msumike55]

I'd like to know what people feel is the "best" country to be a doctor... Not what country you think is the most beautiful, or highest pay, but which one seems to be best for doctors taking ALL (or most) factors into account, and keeping in mind the way things are currently changing in the health care field in the US.

So, let's hear it.

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[IlDestriero]

USA, CAN, Oz.

 

[link2swim06]

What are "all factors"?

I'd say any country with a high number of physicians/residents/med students whom immigrated from other countries to study/live/work there must be "good for doctors." I wouldn't uproot and leave my family for a foreign country unless there was a much better opportunity there.

But with anything everyone has different ideas of a "good job" and will therefore be more/less attracted to certain countries. Sorry there is no singular best country...its like asking what is the "best" color in the rainbow.

 

[Morsetlis]

The best color in the rainbow is green, because distinguishing between different shades of green is evolutionarily useful in the jungles.

 

[dr zaius]

I know a few docs in Ireland. Work stable and normal hours as a GP, make a decent living, and you have no debt. Not a bad gig, really.

 

[docnotsopc]

Australia
England
Canada
US
France

Good pay, good hours. I believe you have more perks as a Family physician in England and France than you do in North America.

 

[CatFactorial]

New Zealand

 

[Ineedhopenow]

What about Singapore? Their healthcare system, education system, politics...everything is amazing. However, I'm not sure how well doctors are paid.

 

[Crim1]

Doesn't this depend on personal preferences? For me it would be the United States. You can practice medicine, run a business (practice) with a few partners AND make money. Definitely makes up for the education debt, lawsuits, constant class warfare and having to deal with insurance companies. I might change my mind if the government takes away my independence though.

 

[Lbgem]

What about Singapore? Their healthcare system, education system, politics...everything is amazing. However, I'm not sure how well doctors are paid.

Isn't there caning there....

 

[badasshairday]

Isn't there caning there....

Yes.

Singapore is freaking awesome though. That country is so clean, safe, and just a nice place to live.

Anyways my vote for best country to be a doctor isn't actually a single country. The best is to be a US board certified radiologist and doing teleradiology from your location of choice such as Bahamas, India, Brazil, anywhere you can have a fast internet connection. If you want a tropical paradise, go to Tahiti, but remember cost of living. So you can go to India or Brazil where your dollar will go MUCH father than it can in the United States. Do nighthawk radiology and since you are US board certified you can provide a final read and bill.

 

[surftheiop]

I read somewhere that australia has been putting up huge salaries to attract all kinds of various american professionals. I think they are even hiring ex- US military to join the Australian navy for like twice the salary they were making in the US. Not sure why, I guess their economy has expanded a lot with mining and stuff and they haven't had enough time to train up a big enough professional workforce?

 

[cbrons]

Yes.

Singapore is freaking awesome though. That country is so clean, safe, and just a nice place to live.

Anyways my vote for best country to be a doctor isn't actually a single country. The best is to be a US board certified radiologist and doing teleradiology from your location of choice such as Bahamas, India, Brazil, anywhere you can have a fast internet connection. If you want a tropical paradise, go to Tahiti, but remember cost of living. So you can go to India or Brazil where your dollar will go MUCH father than it can in the United States. Do nighthawk radiology and since you are US board certified you can provide a final read and bill.

I wanna read more about Singapore cause it seems like a great backup if this country goes down the tubes.

Thing is, I think US M.D.s have to have a special dispensation from the government of Singapore to practice there. So far as I can tell (when I last checked) you have to have graduated from a specific medical school in the US and only a few of the MD schools are on that list, none of the DO are either. I'm not sure. Wish someone could clarify how a US M.D. can move and practice there.

 

[Oxer45]

I'd like to know what people feel is the "best" country to be a doctor... Not what country you think is the most beautiful, or highest pay, but which one seems to be best for doctors taking ALL (or most) factors into account, and keeping in mind the way things are currently changing in the health care field in the US.

So, let's hear it.

You're not asking which country has the best healthcare, but in which country is it better to be a doctor. From pay perspective, it to have a US degree and work in some other country where they will pay you a ton for being a US doc. As for lifestyle, nothing beats US. Euro countries pay too little, tax too much. South America, Asia, Africa, Russia, is too corrupt/ unstable .

 

[greg1184]

The best color in the rainbow is green, because distinguishing between different shades of green is evolutionarily useful in the jungles.

Sounds like a typical med school multiple choice exam.

 

[secants]

I wanna read more about Singapore cause it seems like a great backup if this country goes down the tubes.

Thing is, I think US M.D.s have to have a special dispensation from the government of Singapore to practice there. So far as I can tell (when I last checked) you have to have graduated from a specific medical school in the US and only a few of the MD schools are on that list, none of the DO are either. I'm not sure. Wish someone could clarify how a US M.D. can move and practice there.

http://www.healthprofessionals.gov.... Registrable Basic Medical Qualifications.pdf

They list it in that PDF, and it's most of the well known private schools, hardly any state ones.

http://www.moh.gov.sg/content/moh_web/home.html

 

[MedPR]

'merica.

 

[Postictal Raiden]

I read somewhere that australia has been putting up huge salaries to attract all kinds of various american professionals. I think they are even hiring ex- US military to join the Australian navy for like twice the salary they were making in the US. Not sure why, I guess their economy has expanded a lot with mining and stuff and they haven't had enough time to train up a big enough professional workforce?

Isn't it against the law to work in the military of foreign countries?

 

[acesup123]

Isn't it against the law to work in the military of foreign countries?

You'll have give to give up your American citizenship.

I read on SDN somewhere that primary care docs in Canada make more, so I guess Canada if you like primary care and the cold.

 

[Ineedhopenow]

http://www.healthprofessionals.gov.... Registrable Basic Medical Qualifications.pdf

They list it in that PDF, and it's most of the well known private schools, hardly any state ones.

http://www.moh.gov.sg/content/moh_web/home.html

Oh man that sucks! That list will hopefully be broadened in the future.

 

[surftheiop]

Isn't it against the law to work in the military of foreign countries?

Not of an ally.

I think its not uncommon for Americans to join the israeli military. Also in WWI we had tons of americans fighting for other countries.

(Although, at a practical level I have no idea how they decide which countries are friendly enough for us to do this.)

 

[surftheiop]

You're not asking which country has the best healthcare, but in which country is it better to be a doctor. From pay perspective, it to have a US degree and work in some other country where they will pay you a ton for being a US doc. As for lifestyle, nothing beats US. Euro countries pay too little, tax too much. South America, Asia, Africa, Russia, is too corrupt/ unstable .

US might make the most money, but probably overall doesn't have the best lifestyle. In a lot of europe your going to be working way less hours and probably would take 2-3 times as many weeks vacation.

 

[mmmcdowe]

New Zealand

This is where I will move if the US system ever completely collapses 😀..

 

[starstarie]

US might make the most money, but probably overall doesn't have the best lifestyle. In a lot of europe your going to be working way less hours and probably would take 2-3 times as many weeks vacation.

I'm curious about opinions on this topic as well. There is no way the US has the best lifestyle; whoever said that probably has never been to Europe for an extended amount of time. Of course it is a matter of preference where the "best" place to practice is. In my opinion, I'd much rather be paid less and work less, with less stress.

In Spain, for example, although you don't make very much, you get a month of vacation, plus all the regular holidays (meaning about 1 week for Christmas break and a week at Easter and more). You also only work about 20-30 hours a week. Lawsuits don't really exist, and neither do insurance companies. The other side of that, however, is that you dont accrue debt because school only costs around $1000/year. So coming from the US, where you likely have 100,000+ k in debt, it may be too difficult to make it work.

I know in most other European countries MDs make a lot more, though. I'm sure Scandinavia has to be great!

 

[Parklife]

Nobody has mentioned legislative advantages? The mid-level's power struggle? Any of that present in some of these abandon ship countries? CRNAs, DNPs, etc.

burn-out rate?

 

[greatnt249]

Isn't it against the law to work in the military of foreign countries?

Ever heard of the French Foreign Legion?

 

[ijn]

Can u please fix ur link? I can't buy yoru liptorz its brokeed

thanks much sir

 

[Asp]

Best country to be a doctor in is Texas.

 

[xf3rn4nd3sx]

US might make the most money, but probably overall doesn't have the best lifestyle. In a lot of europe your going to be working way less hours and probably would take 2-3 times as many weeks vacation.

Ya, US docs typically make more, but European docs typically work less. Malpractice is also much lower overseas.

 

[PrideNeverDie]

Ya, US docs typically make more, but European docs typically work less. Malpractice is also much lower overseas.

in the US you can choose to work less hours. can you increase your hours in europe for increased income and is it comparable to the US?

 

[Etorphine]

One factor that I haven't heard here is the capacity to do good for your patient. You have to take into account that in a lot of countries, there just isn't the advanced medical technology to help give your patients the absolute best treatment. Obviously this will vary from disease to disease, as many can be managed with basic equipment. Nonetheless, if you assign value toward seeing your patients get better, you might consider factoring this in.

 

[IlDestriero]

Best country to be a doctor in is Texas.

There's some truth to this.

 

[deleted393595]

I'd like to know what people feel is the "best" country to be a doctor... Not what country you think is the most beautiful, or highest pay, but which one seems to be best for doctors taking ALL (or most) factors into account, and keeping in mind the way things are currently changing in the health care field in the US.

So, let's hear it.

UK easily

 

[pseudosquam]

Canada will be the best country to practice medicine in the future.

-low debt
-relatively high pay
-trending away from liberal socialism
-economically solvent and improving their position in the world
-low mal-practice occurrence.
-relatively good hours

Taken together these make Canada the best place in the world to be a doctor for the foreseeable future. Europe is crap and is going down. Asian/middle east countries have oppressive government systems of reimbursement - medicine on the cheap at the providers expense.

The US may be better in the future depending if the (D)liberals lose or not. If they win we're screwed. If (R)/conservatives win there is hope for the future - Freedom & Prosperity - medical doctors will be treated like autonomous professionals who are masters of their own skills & career. If the D's win we'll all be dogs of the state doing their bidding to help out the indigent who've drank/injected/snorted their future away. The entitlement state.

/Thread Closed. There is no more to discuss.

 

[KinasePro]

Canada will be the best country to practice medicine in the future.

Eh, you forgot about the crappy job markets for many specialties in Canada, despite high demand. A lot of your "pros" are spot on, but it's a pretty sh:tty situation if you have to choose a different specialty because the market sucks in the field you love.

 

[Wilf]

The US may be better in the future depending if the (D)liberals lose or not. If they win we're screwed. If (R)/conservatives win there is hope for the future - Freedom & Prosperity - medical doctors will be treated like autonomous professionals who are masters of their own skills & career. If the D's win we'll all be dogs of the state doing their bidding to help out the indigent who've drank/injected/snorted their future away. The entitlement state.

I wish more medical students and doctors understood this.

 

[docnotsopc]

One factor that I haven't heard here is the capacity to do good for your patient. You have to take into account that in a lot of countries, there just isn't the advanced medical technology to help give your patients the absolute best treatment. Obviously this will vary from disease to disease, as many can be managed with basic equipment. Nonetheless, if you assign value toward seeing your patients get better, you might consider factoring this in.

I agree, this isn't discussed enough. While I agree that the US has the advantage of having a good amount of advanced medical equipment..... the problem is not really as bad outside the US as American media suggests. You also need to take into account peoples attitude towards healthcare in other countries. For example in the US, many patients feel the need to get a full work up of unnecessary imaging tests etc. This is a rare mentality outside the US. So even though many countries dont have an over abundance of medical equipment, they get by just fine as the equipment is used by priority.

Back to the patient, also keep in mind that in all other first world countries outside the US there is no limit of healthcare based on financial situation. One of the advantages of universal health care is that any patient regardless of financial situation gets the same treatment

Being a doctor outside the US: many countries pay doctors a salary and than they have incentives. The bonus payments on incentives are huge too. For example as a Family Physician you get increasingly larger bonuses as you get more patients to say quit smoking or lose weight. The bonuses can be huge too (thousands of dollars here and there). In summary, you get rewarded for how good of a doctor you are (which I think is awesome and the way it should work)

 

[pseudosquam]

The contrast became clear to me when I compared my Orthodontists office that I frequented as a patient to my time spent shadowing an EM physician.

Night and day. lol.

Ortho office: Nice, well mannered, prompt patients who are diligent and curious to optimize the treatment plan they've bought. Thankful, even.

ED: Entitled, angry, belligerent, selfish patients who care little for their health. In fact most of their problems were a result of their own choices. This of course is excluding the few legitimate emergent patients who came to the ED. However, the voice of the women at the ER triage counter still rings out to me: "Why dont you gimme any of dem contacts for my eyes. I cant see! I need them and I'm out!" 😕

I wish more medical students and doctors understood this.

 

[CaptainSSO]

The contrast became clear to me when I compared my Orthodontists office that I frequented as a patient to my time spent shadowing an EM physician.

Night and day. lol.

Ortho office: Nice, well mannered, prompt patients who are diligent and curious to optimize the treatment plan they've bought. Thankful, even.

ED: Entitled, angry, belligerent, selfish patients who care little for their health. In fact most of their problems were a result of their own choices. This of course is excluding the few legitimate emergent patients who came to the ED. However, the voice of the women at the ER triage counter still rings out to me: "Why dont you gimme any of dem contacts for my eyes. I cant see! I need them and I'm out!" 😕

Judgemental, much? Nah....

Seriously, though. Is this you?

I'm pretty sure Brett Easton Ellis modeled him after you.

 

[Marcus Brody]

How about "no country"?

A country is a farm. Government, the farmer. We are the cattle.

 

[pseudosquam]

Work in the system a little bit before you question my point of view or ethics, medical student. The helping hand you would extend is the one holding people down.

You are naive.

Judgemental, much? Nah....

Seriously, though. Is this you?

I'm pretty sure Brett Easton Ellis modeled him after you.

 

[calvnandhobbs68]

The contrast became clear to me when I compared my Orthodontists office that I frequented as a patient to my time spent shadowing an EM physician.

Night and day. lol.

Ortho office: Nice, well mannered, prompt patients who are diligent and curious to optimize the treatment plan they've bought. Thankful, even.

ED: Entitled, angry, belligerent, selfish patients who care little for their health. In fact most of their problems were a result of their own choices. This of course is excluding the few legitimate emergent patients who came to the ED. However, the voice of the women at the ER triage counter still rings out to me: "Why dont you gimme any of dem contacts for my eyes. I cant see! I need them and I'm out!" 😕

You kind of leave out the big differentiating factor here...MONEY.

People who can afford to go to an orthodontist are absolutely going to have a different attitude than people coming into the ED. If you can drop a grand on some braces you probably have a different outlook in general than someone who doesn't make that in a month. One could write pages about why these people had different attitudes but making this glossed over comparison is just ridiculous. Once again, there is a different population of people at the orthodontist because you are excluding all those people who cannot afford the services. It'd be like comparing a cosmetic plastic surgery practice to an ED...completely ludicrous and they serve completely different purposes.

I'm surprised that for someone who thinks you're so clever you didn't quite catch that when comparing the two experiences.

 

[pseudosquam]

You connected the dots or read-between-the-lines as they say. My goal in that comparison was to show the differences in the perceived value of a service or good when the consumer has some skin in the game vs. it being their "right".

When people actually pay for a good, or some portion of it, they view it differently - it's value. There are bound to be socioeconomic differences; however, I've seen people with less means take great care for items that they've bought themselves.

Speaking to the broader question raised in this thread. I think the best health systems are ones that allow physicians to act as their own agents and their services are not seen as another persons right. That sort of treatment of a good or service devalues it - after all - what choice do the docs have (EMTALA)? They work for "us" right?

Ahhhh. Now you see.

You kind of leave

 

[xf3rn4nd3sx]

in the US you can choose to work less hours. can you increase your hours in europe for increased income and is it comparable to the US?

It's not always possible to work less here. I'm sure it's feasible to work more hours in Europe, but the dollar per hour amount seems to be better (at least in Great Britain, not too sure about other countries).

 

[Bulc12]

I know a few docs in Ireland. Work stable and normal hours as a GP, make a decent living, and you have no debt. Not a bad gig, really.

Oh you must be having a laugh! Irealnds health care system is the worst in the whole world at the moment. People will be waiting 5 -7 years inorder to get an operation done. There are no free hospital beds at all where ever you go and people will be required to pay healthcare insurance which some people cant even afford. Please do not choose us to be a surgon!

 

[petyr_baelish]

You'll have give to give up your American citizenship.

I read on SDN somewhere that primary care docs in Canada make more, so I guess Canada if you like primary care and the cold.

Newsflash: Minnesota is colder than the most populated areas in Canada.

 

[petyr_baelish]

Oh you must be having a laugh! Irealnds health care system is the worst in the whole world at the moment. People will be waiting 5 -7 years inorder to get an operation done. There are no free hospital beds at all where ever you go and people will be required to pay healthcare insurance which some people cant even afford. Please do not choose us to be a surgon!

Not to mention that abortion is illegal and medically necessary ones are filled with red tape.

I know in most other European countries MDs make a lot more, though. I'm sure Scandinavia has to be great!

Scandinavia is extremely xenophobic.

It costs more to import your 6 year old Audi than it does to buy one new in the USA. Just buy a European car? Nope, the crappiest one will cost you the same as an Audi in the USA.

The tax rate is ~50%.

It's a great place if you're an artist with a Vespa. I think this is where the romanticized notions of Scandinavia come from. Ikea was born there out of necessity since everything is so damn expensive.

People love minimalism and clean lines in Scandinavia, not because of aesthetic reasons in my opinion, but because it's cheap and practical. All the brightly coloured houses exist because the weather is grey and rainy half of the time and red paint isn't much more expensive than white paint. The suburbs are not cute and quite flat. Norway is beautiful but pretty much unpopulated.

Scandinavia is good for a certain kind of person. It's a horrible place if you are highly skilled, healthy and have no kids. Unless you like subsidizing other people's college funds and waiting a long time to see a doctor. To be clear, if you are already a doctor and moving there, you never got any of the advantages of living there. You will simply foot the bill for everyone else for the rest of your life unless you lose your job or go on mat leave. Canada gives one year of paid maternity leave so there is no need to go all the way to Scandinavia.

If you're cool with all of the above, there is the fact that infidelity rates are extremely high and social life is very cliquey. It's extremely difficult to become one of 'them' the way you can in Australia, Canada or the UK. Or, gasp, TEXAS. Is it ever easy to make friends in Texas!

I love Europe but I didn't study this long, collecting US debt, to turn around and get paid nothing.

 

[Roxas]

Not the Philippines

 

[MedWonk]

*sigh* I can't believe I responded to a two year old message.

 

[graviton]

Scandinavia is extremely xenophobic.

It costs more to import your 6 year old Audi than it does to buy one new in the USA. Just buy a European car? Nope, the crappiest one will cost you the same as an Audi in the USA.

The tax rate is ~50%.

It's a great place if you're an artist with a Vespa. I think this is where the romanticized notions of Scandinavia come from. Ikea was born there out of necessity since everything is so damn expensive.

People love minimalism and clean lines in Scandinavia, not because of aesthetic reasons in my opinion, but because it's cheap and practical. All the brightly coloured houses exist because the weather is grey and rainy half of the time and red paint isn't much more expensive than white paint. The suburbs are not cute and quite flat. Norway is beautiful but pretty much unpopulated.

Scandinavia is good for a certain kind of person. It's a horrible place if you are highly skilled, healthy and have no kids. Unless you like subsidizing other people's college funds and waiting a long time to see a doctor. To be clear, if you are already a doctor and moving there, you never got any of the advantages of living there. You will simply foot the bill for everyone else for the rest of your life unless you lose your job or go on mat leave. Canada gives one year of paid maternity leave so there is no need to go all the way to Scandinavia.

If you're cool with all of the above, there is the fact that infidelity rates are extremely high and social life is very cliquey. It's extremely difficult to become one of 'them' the way you can in Australia, Canada or the UK. Or, gasp, TEXAS. Is it ever easy to make friends in Texas!

I love Europe but I didn't study this long, collecting US debt, to turn around and get paid nothing.

A pretty complete summary of everything that's wrong with Northern Europe.

The weather, the cost of living, taxes and the antisocial people.

I assume you've lived in Scandinavia?