Between a med and dental school, which one would choose?

[turtle1966]

If you were to advise a young student, (1) knowing what you know now, (2) comparing the amount of time, effort and expenses, (3) assuming that "medicine" is becoming a "human right or entitlement" administered or directed by government, (4) considering flexibility of professional life, job satisfaction and self-esteem, which one would you pick?

It seems to me that in dentistry, (1) government interference is minimal, (2) insurance plans are basically "pre-paid self-insurances" and (3) dentists are, relatively, more in control of their practice and future.

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[2121115]

If I were starting today, I would pick dental school and not look back. Shorter training, more autonomy, less debt, opportunity to grow practice via your own initiatives, better pay than a primary care doc, etc, etc, etc. Actually, dental subspecialists make more than surgeons (endodontics, orthodontics, oral surgery, etc)

 

[Entgegen]

Dental. My uncle is a dentist and makes crazy bank. A friend of mine from med school who went into orthopedics is married to a dentist who finished dental school while we were still in med school...as a generalist working in a chain dental outfit, she was pulling close to 300K her first year out.

Plus everything 2121115 said.

 

[Kilgoretrout 65]

PA school. Avoid law school. I know nothing about dentists except there are as many dental offices as there are starbucks.

 

[ermonty]

Between Medschool or Dental scool I would go with Dental and then subspecialize (like 2121115 said, specialist dental is nice $).

However, I have to agree with Kilgoretrout, Physician Assistant (or Pathology Assistant if you will) is the best return on investment. My Wife is a Physician Assistant. She makes $105K (plus bonuses) for working 40 hours a week with no call, no nights, no weekends. She gets to do exactly what she wants (procedures all day). If she ever gets bored...she can just switch and do another specialty! Her degree took 2.5 years and cost 80K (and that was private school, can be lower if you go to a state school). Most of her classmates graduated at ~ mid 20's or so. These people will be much better of financially having started earning this salary range at an earlier point in life (paying off debts, investing, 401K, etc.), than the typical physician who spends much more time in training, has a higher debt burden, and limited ability to do anything other than the exact thing (i.e. specialty) they trained in. Many of my wifes colleagues (PAs who finished training in their mid 20s) have no debt, have multiple children and can afford a nanny, have nice portfolios and heavy 401Ks, and travel lavishly in their generous time off.

In short, anyone who has reservations about the time and cost of a becoming a doctor (to a lessor extent a dentist or lawyer), should give serious consideration to a career as a mid level practitioner (PA in any form). I beleive its the best return on investment you can get in healthcare.

 

[Thrombus]

Between Medschool or Dental scool I would go with Dental and then subspecialize (like 2121115 said, specialist dental is nice $).

However, I have to agree with Kilgoretrout, Physician Assistant (or Pathology Assistant if you will) is the best return on investment. My Wife is a Physician Assistant. She makes $105K (plus bonuses) for working 40 hours a week with no call, no nights, no weekends. She gets to do exactly what she wants (procedures all day). If she ever gets bored...she can just switch and do another specialty! Her degree took 2.5 years and cost 80K (and that was private school, can be lower if you go to a state school). Most of her classmates graduated at ~ mid 20's or so. These people will be much better of financially having started earning this salary range at an earlier point in life (paying off debts, investing, 401K, etc.), than the typical physician who spends much more time in training, has a higher debt burden, and limited ability to do anything other than the exact thing (i.e. specialty) they trained in. Many of my wifes colleagues (PAs who finished training in their mid 20s) have no debt, have multiple children and can afford a nanny, have nice portfolios and heavy 401Ks, and travel lavishly in their generous time off.

In short, anyone who has reservations about the time and cost of a becoming a doctor (to a lessor extent a dentist or lawyer), should give serious consideration to a career as a mid level practitioner (PA in any form). I beleive its the best return on investment you can get in healthcare.

Pathology fellows, in their 30's, after 4 years paying for medical school, 6-7 years of residency and fellowships, status post several moves for most, 80-100 hour weeks, will be fighting for 70K junior faculty job with 3 weeks vacation, plentiful call, 60 hour work weeks, all their spending money going towards debt service, zero investments, and plentiful weight gain/inactivity!

Sign up here!

 

[WEBB PINKERTON]

Pulmonary emboli are a huge problem in pathology. I've talked to a number of people have threw some clots and luckily lived to tell about it. I know of one person at a lab in the area that did die.

Before you consider going into pathology, get worked up to see if you have any clotting disorders. You will be on your butt a lot pushing glass. Dont end up pushing up daisies.

 

[pongo]

Med school and pathology, easily. My job is much more interesting, and I make twice as much as my dentist friends who own their own practices. The grass isn't always greener. There are challenges to owning and running a lucrative dental practice, just as there are to having a successful career in pathology or any other profession. The sense of entitlement to a great job seems limited to medicine.

 

[MetroPath]

Med school and pathology, easily. My job is much more interesting, and I make twice as much as my dentist friends who own their own practices. The grass isn't always greener. There are challenges to owning and running a lucrative dental practice, just as there are to having a successful career in pathology or any other profession. The sense of entitlement to a great job seems limited to medicine.

I have a friend who told me her classmate at NYU has 1,000,000$ in loans. I kid you not. Dental subspecialties from what I understand you have to pay for the fellowship. But again, you can make it all up in a few years. Tuition is 100,000$ a year at NYU.

http://www.nyu.edu/dental/financialservices/tuitionfeesexpensesdds.html

Also, dental schools are pumping out grads as well. My dental buddy said a new school near him is pumping out 80 grads a year. The grass may not be greener on the other side. If you go into dental, I would specialize.

 

[Silent Cool]

Med school and pathology, easily. My job is much more interesting, and I make twice as much as my dentist friends who own their own practices. The grass isn't always greener. There are challenges to owning and running a lucrative dental practice, just as there are to having a successful career in pathology or any other profession. The sense of entitlement to a great job seems limited to medicine.

So you make 400K/year?

 

[Silent Cool]

I have a friend who told me her classmate at NYU has 1,000,000$ in loans. I kid you not. Dental subspecialties from what I understand you have to pay for the fellowship. But again, you can make it all up in a few years. Tuition is 100,000$ a year at NYU.

http://www.nyu.edu/dental/financialservices/tuitionfeesexpensesdds.html

Also, dental schools are pumping out grads as well. My dental buddy said a new school near him is pumping out 80 grads a year. The grass may not be greener on the other side. If you go into dental, I would specialize.

This is absolutely true. If you attend a private dental school with some undergrad debt, and then specialize at a place like NYU, UPENN--which charge tuition--you will be looking at ~a cool million in debt. Don't forget that if you want to make the real $$$ in dentistry you have to OWN a practice--that's MORE debt.

I think the best ROI is probably CRNA who then offers services to dental offices and charges cash.

 

[Glass Pusher]

In that perfect vision of hindsight, I would definitely go dental. It certainly has its challenges (there is a lot of big commercialization going on in it), but you can be fairly entrepreneurial if you want and there is a far greater part of the businesses that is cash. I mean, I have decent dental insurance, but they still require you to pay upfront and let you work with the insurance companies to get reimbursed--don't see that happening in medicine.

I certainly agree with many of you on the PA/CRNA comments though. I know one of the things I GREATLY underestimated before medical school was the time value of money. You may be able to make far more money as a physician (or maybe less in some fields), but if you could start pulling down 100k a year as a PA/NP with little debt in your mid-twenties, you have a huge head start. That's not even considering the significant work-life balance advantages they have. It also discounts the possibility of them climbing in to administrative type roles in their 30s/40s where they could greatly narrow that salary gap. From a financial standpoint, you can definitely see why IMGs are becoming such a large contingency of medicine.

 

[yaah]

No chance I would go dental. But I don't like the work. Who are all you people who are picking careers based on salary and/or lifestyle as the main reason? This is a recipe for disaster. Because no matter how much you make you will probably discover that it isn't enough, and that someone else is making more for doing less.

 

[Silent Cool]

No chance I would go dental. But I don't like the work. Who are all you people who are picking careers based on salary and/or lifestyle as the main reason? This is a recipe for disaster. Because no matter how much you make you will probably discover that it isn't enough, and that someone else is making more for doing less.

Yaah,

To a certain degree I agree with you, but the issue is simply that people value different things. I've read many of your posts and in one I remember you saying that you could be happy as a college professor. This was in reference to accruing 300K debt for medical training. Frankly, I peg you as an academic type--one who values thinking and intellectual satisfaction over practicality, or entrepreneurship, or money--or all three. I value the latter over the former, but there is nothing wrong with either cohort.

Many on this forum are dissatisfied because in decades past being a physician was the 'almighty' career accomplishment and few other fields, let alone other health care fields, offered a similar average level of success. Now, however, other health care fields (and non-health care fields) are making similar $$$ to many physicians, and the monetary, temporal and emotional effort required to become a physician seem not all that worth it.

Back in the good ol' days of medicine--you know, the 'golden age'--When you could fork over a decade of life and make close to a million, plenty of people would sign up because they could receive phenomenal rewards. But now that the payoff is less than 1/3 of that, and the emotional, temporal and financial sacrifices are even greater....it's at times difficult to feel it was all worth it.

But those are just the practical people

 

[Silent Cool]

No chance I would go dental. But I don't like the work. Who are all you people who are picking careers based on salary and/or lifestyle as the main reason? This is a recipe for disaster. Because no matter how much you make you will probably discover that it isn't enough, and that someone else is making more for doing less.

Regarding Dentistry specifically,
I would say most entering the profession

 

[DermViser]

If you were to advise a young student, (1) knowing what you know now, (2) comparing the amount of time, effort and expenses, (3) assuming that "medicine" is becoming a "human right or entitlement" administered or directed by government, (4) considering flexibility of professional life, job satisfaction and self-esteem, which one would you pick?

It seems to me that in dentistry, (1) government interference is minimal, (2) insurance plans are basically "pre-paid self-insurances" and (3) dentists are, relatively, more in control of their practice and future.

Excellent forethought on your part. I have to tip my hat out to you. Too few students never look at the financial ROI, until it's too late. Medicine was only as strong as it was, when the AMA actually protected and fought for its members, something it has not done at least in the modern era. There's a lot of martyrdom in medicine - which has led to pharmaceutical co., med equipment co., hospitals, insurers, and the govt. taking full advantage of this altruism.

There were quite a few medical students even in my class who believed that healthcare is a right, believe in single payer, etc. Once Medicine started getting involved in the govt with respect to Medicare, it was only time before the govt. started calling the shots and reimbursement. We've almost reached that breaking pt. with Obamacare, esp. with the existence of private practice.

Dentistry was smart enough to be able to be carved out of Medicare and the ADA fully fights for its members and has fought against govt. intervention even with Obamacare. Go into Dentistry and don't look back.

 

[TheTao]

No chance I would go dental. But I don't like the work. Who are all you people who are picking careers based on salary and/or lifestyle as the main reason? This is a recipe for disaster. Because no matter how much you make you will probably discover that it isn't enough, and that someone else is making more for doing less.

I'd postulate that the same people picking careers based on salary/lifestyle are very likely the same ones who chose a career in medicine for the wrong (status, pay, status, to please parents, status) reasons.

 

[turtle1966]

chose a career in medicine for the wrong (status, pay, status, to please parents, status) reasons.

Those are Good Reasons, bad only in the eyes of Utopians. Those are the very ones that have made Capitalism so good to Humanity.

 

[TheTao]

Those are Good Reasons, bad only in the eyes of Utopians. Those are the very ones that has made Capitalism so good to Humanity.

Those are Good Reasons, bad only in the eyes of Utopians. Those are the very ones that has made Capitalism so good to Humanity.

I'm assuming this comment was made in jest? Because this country is in a financial toilet bowl IMHO, thanks to greed disguised as capitalism.

Greed. Or the pursuit of pay/status versus the pursuit of a combination of happiness and a career you enjoy/are reasonable well compensated for.

Greed. I've never met a greedy person happy with ANYTHING. Or just happy.

 

[Johnny Sunshine]

Dental or Medical school?

Neither. If I had known what I know now, I would have just kept doing what was working for me: Working odd jobs part-time, traveling and being active, having lots of social time eating, laughing and drinking with friends, reading as many books as I wanted on whatever subjects I felt like, and in general living a full life on $16,000 a year.

But no. After years of being pressured the advice of career advisers, parents, friends and society in general finally convinced me to give it a go. "You're such a bright guy, I'd hate to see you waste all your potential", my mother told me.

Given my current circumstances, apparently I'm not that bright of a guy.

 

[Silent Cool]

Dental or Medical school?

Neither. If I had known what I know now, I would have just kept doing what was working for me: Working odd jobs part-time, traveling and being active, having lots of social time eating, laughing and drinking with friends, reading as many books as I wanted on whatever subjects I felt like, and in general living a full life on $16,000 a year.

But no. After years of being pressured the advice of career advisers, parents, friends and society in general finally convinced me to give it a go. "You're such a bright guy, I'd hate to see you waste all your potential", my mother told me.

Given my current circumstances, apparently I'm not that bright of a guy.

What did you do before medical school and for how many years? Do you have aspirations or marriage/family?

 

[Thrombus]

I'd postulate that the same people picking careers based on salary/lifestyle are very likely the same ones who chose a career in medicine for the wrong (status, pay, status, to please parents, status) reasons.

LMAO! Who made you the moral police? Capitalism is merely the exchange of goods/services that benefits both parties involved. This is a good thing! Your communist utopian model only benefits one side in transactions, and I might also add that usually both sides lose and only those in power win.

 

[TheTao]

LMAO! Who made you the moral police? Capitalism is merely the exchange of goods/services that benefits both parties involved. This is a good thing! Your communist utopian model only benefits one side in transactions, and I might also add that usually both sides lose and only those in power win.

Who said that choosing a career based on status/money portends a moral quandary?

If capitalism is "merely the exchange of goods/services that benefits both parties involved", how do you explain the significant decrease in the numbers of middle class Americans and the records profits made by the top1%?

Along those same lines, the Physicians of yesteryear sold out the medical profession for money i.e. they were greedy SOBs. Yet you celebrate the greed of the very people who decreased the number of opportunities for Physicians, especially Pathologists.

I find it ironic your user name Thrombus is exactly what Pathologists have done to the field for years! Turned a life saving process into a pathological condition that will eventually "kill" the profession.

 

[WEBB PINKERTON]

There are many reasons the middle class is disappearing. Liberals took over our education system and told kids to "follow their dreams". All they got was a worthless degree and lots of debt for their efforts. Meanwhile in the Asian countries, they studied math and science and are more than happy to take those good paying jobs. There are a ton of good jobs in the city I live (in manufacturing) but Americans are not qualified. The education system in this country and globalization has killed the middle class. Doesn't help that the government keeps subsidizing everything, keeping costs high. Let evolution run its course and get costs down!

 

[Thrombus]

Who said that choosing a career based on status/money portends a moral quandary?

If capitalism is "merely the exchange of goods/services that benefits both parties involved", how do you explain the significant decrease in the numbers of middle class Americans and the records profits made by the top1%?

Along those same lines, the Physicians of yesteryear sold out the medical profession for money i.e. they were greedy SOBs. Yet you celebrate the greed of the very people who decreased the number of opportunities for Physicians, especially Pathologists.

I find it ironic your user name Thrombus is exactly what Pathologists have done to the field for years! Turned a life saving process into a pathological condition that will eventually "kill" the profession.

The free market has been hijacked by government created forces. The FED has created bubble after bubble and their loose monetary policy hurts those on fixed income/low income and benefits the investment class. The housing bubble created by cheap loans by the government also made housing much more expensive and when the bubble burst, destroyed middle class wealth/savings/property. Today's confiscatory tax rates on EARNED income hurt those trying to climb the ladder and benefit those of the investment class who have all the wealth already. The only reason pathologists were able to sell out is that there was a meddling government that has been funding an oversupply of trainees. Need more examples?

 

[TheTao]

Let evolution run its course and get costs down!

Isn't this the average American's response to Physician complaints about decreased compensation, being over worked, gov't interference, ect as a result of the cost of good healthcare?

Isn't this what insurance companies are doing?

Aren't you one of the biggest voices on this board for the lack of opportunities in Pathology? If so, congrats you got exactly what you wanted, the de-evolution of the field of Pathology to get costs down!

 

[Thrombus]

I agree with Webb's government funded and controlled public education system. It absolutely STINKS to high heaven and gets worse every year no matter how much money they throw/bribe the teachers unions.

 

[Thrombus]

Isn't this the average American's response to Physician complaints about decreased compensation, being over worked, gov't interference, ect as a result of the cost of good healthcare?

Isn't this what insurance companies are doing?

Aren't you one of the biggest voices on this board for the lack of opportunities in Pathology? If so, congrats you got exactly what you wanted, the de-evolution of the field of Pathology to get costs down!

The insurance companies are partnering with the government. There is pretty much zero competition as all insurance companies are having to follow the same "standards" while the government creates and maintains their moat.

 

[TheTao]

I agree with Webb's government funded and controlled public education system. It absolutely STINKS to high heaven and gets worse every year no matter how much money they throw/bribe the teachers unions.

And agree with you both, I taught high school chemistry in a public school and though I LOVED my students, the bureaucracy perpetuates mediocrity!!

That said and on another note, Affordable Healthcare is a joke without tort reform and personal responsibility, and I do NOT support it as it's currently written.

 

[turtle1966]

I'm assuming this comment was made in jest? Because this country is in a financial toilet bowl IMHO, thanks to greed disguised as capitalism.

Greed. Or the pursuit of pay/status versus the pursuit of a combination of happiness and a career you enjoy/are reasonable well compensated for.

Greed. I've never met a greedy person happy with ANYTHING. Or just happy.

I am pretty sure we are on the same side, simply expressing ourselves differently.

Status and pay are amoral attributes. As to "to please parents", for ages, the most "profitable" advice given to any child was, is and will be, by far: "listen, obey and honor your father and mother".
Exodus 20:12: Honour thy father and thy mother: that thy days may be long upon the land which the Lord thy God giveth thee.

You are confusing a goose for a gander, a commonly reported trait amongst Utopians and Liberals. Happiness is an attribute of a person, independent of "pay or status". By sheer probability, I have seen more people unhappy for not having "pay or status" than for having them.

Best thing a human being can do for his fellow human being is to be excellent, i.e., strive to be best you can with all heart and soul. It is one of the essences of Christianity, as portrayed in the parable of talents (... Master gave 1 talent to one servant, 2 to 2nd and 5 to the third....).

When you strive for your best, you will not desire to harm others nor to become a burden to others or to Government. "Pay and status" are approximate proxies for your performance, and not the roots of evil or unhappiness.

Unfortunately, we all are used to the Liberals and Utopians dispensing empty words of charity for the Poor but having no material or spiritual things to give away to them.

 

[turtle1966]

Dental or Medical school?

Neither. If I had known what I know now, I would have just kept doing what was working for me: Working odd jobs part-time, traveling and being active, having lots of social time eating, laughing and drinking with friends, reading as many books as I wanted on whatever subjects I felt like, and in general living a full life on $16,000 a year.

But no. After years of being pressured the advice of career advisers, parents, friends and society in general finally convinced me to give it a go. "You're such a bright guy, I'd hate to see you waste all your potential", my mother told me.

Given my current circumstances, apparently I'm not that bright of a guy.

I think you have made the right move by listening to your Mom and going into Medicine. The unfortunate move probably would have been choosing Pathology.

Confucius would have said: "He that learns weeping one day, certainly will smile someday." Do not be discouraged, I think you have made the right choice, and you still have miles to go.

BTW, I trust your Mom did not choose Pathology for you.

 

[TheTao]

You are confusing a goose for a gander, a commonly reported trait amongst Utopians and Liberals. Happiness is an attribute of a person, independent of "pay or status". By sheer probability, I have seen more people unhappy for not having "pay or status" than for having them.
.

I'm actually on the conservative side of being an Independent. In fact, I still have the McCain sticker on my car and wish he would have run again in 2012.
Poor people say married longer than rich folks. Happiness is relative I suppose.

 

[Johnny Sunshine]

I trust your Mom did not choose Pathology for you.

Heh, no. She was disappointed in that decision, actually. But my mother did not choose medicine for me either, no one did. That was just one example of the social pressure to "make something of yourself", regardless of whether doing so leads to happiness.

 

[turtle1966]

Heh, no. She was disappointed in that decision, actually. But my mother did not choose medicine for me either, no one did. That was just one example of the social pressure to "make something of yourself", regardless of whether doing so leads to happiness.

Many would envy you, a doctor.

 

[Johnny Sunshine]

What did you do before medical school and for how many years? Do you have aspirations or marriage/family?

Unfortunately it was quite a variety, so I don't really have a "career" to fall back on. Between high school and med school was 8 years, which included part-time office stuff during college, as well as a year of retail and a couple years as a nurse's aid in a retirement home and a hospital psych ward. I also worked security at an amusement park for a few months.

Those years certainly had their downsides; it wasn't all rosy like I may have implied. But I had a lot more free time than I do now, had to put up with less micromanagement and similar restrictions on my life, and wasn't trapped by a career path. I owned a decent car, had no debt, and even paid off my college loans. If I got bored of a job, city, or whatever, I could leave and do something completely different at any time without consequence.

I'm now 34, and have never had a desire to marry. I have no desire to own a house, boat, or hot rod, nor to travel, go on cruises, Disney World, etc. I'm sure there are parts of The American Dream I would enjoy, but for the most part the effort and restrictions on one's life required to do so aren't worth it to me.

Many people suffer though a ho-hum job or similar situations because they know they're building a certain kind of life for themselves; they'll be getting something from it in the end. That's wonderful! More power to them if that's what they want. But I'm simply not all that interested in what having a career can "offer" me, so I feel regret being where I am now.

 

[KluverB]

I am pretty sure we are on the same side, simply expressing ourselves differently.

Status and pay are amoral attributes. As to "to please parents", for ages, the most "profitable" advice given to any child was, is and will be, by far: "listen, obey and honor your father and mother".
Exodus 20:12: Honour thy father and thy mother: that thy days may be long upon the land which the Lord thy God giveth thee.

You are confusing a goose for a gander, a commonly reported trait amongst Utopians and Liberals. Happiness is an attribute of a person, independent of "pay or status". By sheer probability, I have seen more people unhappy for not having "pay or status" than for having them.

Best thing a human being can do for his fellow human being is to be excellent, i.e., strive to be best you can with all heart and soul. It is one of the essences of Christianity, as portrayed in the parable of talents (... Master gave 1 talent to one servant, 2 to 2nd and 5 to the third....).

When you strive for your best, you will not desire to harm others nor to become a burden to others or to Government. "Pay and status" are approximate proxies for your performance, and not the roots of evil or unhappiness.

Unfortunately, we all are used to the Liberals and Utopians dispensing empty words of charity for the Poor but having no material or spiritual things to give away to them.

Dude, you've had me at amoral.

When you strive to be the best pathologist ever, despite the market glut, the crappy reimbursement, etc.; that's the best thing ever? If your parents are creationists who tell you to read the good book, and do everything in their power to make sure you don't catch any of that satanic guvmint-run claptrap liberal ideas spread by modern educational institutions; that's the best advice ever?

Thank you for your charitable words for those of us who don't have your highly evolved sense of conservative capitalist spirit.

Btw, happiness is actually just a chemical reaction.

 

[DermViser]

I have a friend who told me her classmate at NYU has 1,000,000$ in loans. I kid you not. Dental subspecialties from what I understand you have to pay for the fellowship. But again, you can make it all up in a few years. Tuition is 100,000$ a year at NYU.

http://www.nyu.edu/dental/financialservices/tuitionfeesexpensesdds.html

Also, dental schools are pumping out grads as well. My dental buddy said a new school near him is pumping out 80 grads a year. The grass may not be greener on the other side. If you go into dental, I would specialize.

NYU is also the most expensive medical school and not as competitive.