biochem/cell bio requirement

[sunnex3]

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so i don't know if anyone knows about the penn biology classes...
but we have a class here, biology 202, called cellular biology and biochemistry. it's a required class for my major, and i know several schools require cell bio and/or biochem for their prereqs...

i was wondering if anyone here knew if this class would count for either or both requirements? 😕

i would really prefer not to have to take ANOTHER cell bio and/or bio chem course after taking bio 202 at penn....it's notoriously hard

this is the course description blurb from the registrar:
An introduction to protein structure, enzyme kinetics, mechanism of enzyme action and allosteric regulation of enzyme activity; introduction to cell structure and function including membrane structure, membrane receptors and signal transduction, motility, and the cell cycle.

it's very similar to the genetics class i'm taking for the bio major, which is a molecular biology AND genetics course (biol 221)

anyone know???

 

[vnair2]

I have nothing to contribute here. I never took biochem and I don't know anything about that class. However, I did just graduate from Penn, so hello.

That being said, ill give you the really really safe answer, which is, contact the schools you are interested in and ask. I know some schools specifically require 2 semesters of a year long biochem course, which means this probably wont cut it. Some schools only require 1 semester of biochem and maybe this will cut it. Some schools, like Penn, require no biochem, so it all depends.

Horray for Penn and not requiring biochem

 

[Mistoffeles]

Every school has its own rules with regards to course substitutions. Most are not thrilled about applying one course to two requirements, and may in fact reject it for both. The thing to do is to check with the schools that you're applying to, and ask. You may need to fill out an official form, requesting that a substitute course be accepted in lieu of the actual requirement, and most schools recommend that this be done very early on.

The issue seems to be that most state schools base their requirements on the course offerings in their feeder undergraduate programs, and no state is the same. So (as I think was noted in a different thread), Biochemistry may be a 200 level course at some colleges, and 300 or 400 level at others. I'm taking an immunology class right now, which is both graduate level and upper level undergraduate. So it can be very confusing.

 

[No Imagination]

When I first started out on this trip, all the schools I talked to were pretty strict about the biochem. had to be the real biochem, (organic chem as a pre-req).

lately I know of at least 6 schools that allow the "Baby" biochem to fulfill that requirement.

Seeing as it says in the course description, "An introduction..." I would be a bit careful if you decide not take real biochem later.

That said, "allosteric regulation of enzyme activity" is anything but easy. Not even sure how that can be taught as the math is usually cal. based.

 

[sunnex3]

When I first started out on this trip, all the schools I talked to were pretty strict about the biochem. had to be the real biochem, (organic chem as a pre-req).

lately I know of at least 6 schools that allow the "Baby" biochem to fulfill that requirement.

Seeing as it says in the course description, "An introduction..." I would be a bit careful if you decide not take real biochem later.

That said, "allosteric regulation of enzyme activity" is anything but easy. Not even sure how that can be taught as the math is usually cal. based.

do you mind telling me what those 6 schools are that would allow my biochem class?

 

[Mistoffeles]

That said, "allosteric regulation of enzyme activity" is anything but easy. Not even sure how that can be taught as the math is usually cal. based.

Just to be pedantic . . . 😀

If allosteric regulation is taught at the conceptual and pathway level, it doesn't necessarily need to involve calculus (or much math at all). And I might argue that you'll understand it just as well as if you can solve the problems. After all, in a clinical setting, you're not likely to be doing calculus. That said, if your interest is research, you may want to learn the mathematics of regulation much more thoroughly.

 

[No Imagination]

Just to be pedantic . . . 😀

If allosteric regulation is taught at the conceptual and pathway level, it doesn't necessarily need to involve calculus (or much math at all). And I might argue that you'll understand it just as well as if you can solve the problems. After all, in a clinical setting, you're not likely to be doing calculus. That said, if your interest is research, you may want to learn the mathematics of regulation much more thoroughly.

Yeah, but should something as complex and important as kinetics and allostery be taught at the conceptual level? Kinetics is useless without an understanding of the math behind it. I mean, Organic chem could be taught without ever taking General Chemistry, but you will not understand or get the full scope of it.

do you mind telling me what those 6 schools are that would allow my biochem class?

I don't know if they would allow YOUR biochem class, but I TA in the biochemistry department, and we recently started a new "Fundamental Biochemistry" class that is designed for science majors but non-biochem majors.

The rationale behind it was to allow students to get a wider breath of biochem is just one semester, and it is really superficial. That said, and I don't know the list, but during a Biochem club someone made a list of the med schools and vet schools (I assume they were contacted) that would allow it to fulfill the requirements).

And even if I did know the names, I wouldn't say - Because schools change their minds about this stuff all the time. You talk to one person, you get told one thing. Talk to another, and you hear something else entirely.

pedantic - Good word, had to look it up. Gotta remember that one 🙂

 

[sunnex3]

anyone else have any input?

any penn students???

 

[sunnex3]

ALSO another HUGE HUGE problem that I have
every school requires 2 semesters of gen bio right?
well the year i took gen bio (my freshman year), i took the first semester in the fall. then in the spring of that year, Penn stopped offering the 2nd semester equivalent of gen. bio and instead offered a lab/lecture course as a substitute for this 2nd semester lecture course of gen. bio.

now how am i supposed to explain this to schools? will i be penalized because of limitations set by my school? it's not that i chose not to take it, i actually couldn't take it because it wasn't offered...

argh.

 

[sumstorm]

Ummm...what is the lab/lecture course?

My college offered 3 terms of intro bio; essentially one term was aimed at population biology, another term at organismal biology, and another at cellular/molecular biology. I haven't had problems with those covering the prereqs as they are the introductory series at my college for biology majors. It is actually one of the pre-reqs that I thought might trip me up (becase the classes were called things like 'cells and molecules') but hasn't been an issue at any school I asked about it.

The biochem.... I think that might be more difficult to pull off, especially in schools that want 'upper level' biochem.

 

[sunnex3]

my school offers only 2 terms of intro bio:
biology 121 Introduction to Molecular Biology - The Molecular Biology of Life: An intensive introductory lecture and laboratory course covering the cell and molecular biology, biochemistry, and genetics of animals, bacteria, and viruses. This course is comparable to Biology 101, but places greater emphasis on molecular mechanisms and experimental approaches. Particular attention is given to the ways in which modern cell biological and molecular genetic methods contribute to our understanding of evolutionary processes, the mechanistic basis of human disease, and recent biotechnological innovations.
then the 2nd semester sequence is
biology 124 Introductory Organismal Biology Lab: This is the 2nd semester companion course to Biology 121. An intensive introductory laboratory course emphasizing direct experimental investigation and observation of fundamental evolutionary, ecological, anatomical and physiological phenomena and adaptations in diverse living systems

after that, my school doesn't offer any more "general" or "intro" bio courses. I will be taking courses in ecology, vertebrate physiology, molecular biology/genetics, cell bio/biochemistry, upper level biochemistry, infectious disease biology, intro neurobiology.

the biggest problem is that i didn't have a choice as to what 2nd semester bio i take, since no complete 2nd semester gen bio course was offered.

 

[sumstorm]

So they are not offering bio 124 any more?

 

[sunnex3]

well biology 124 is what i took, in place of the regular lecture course biology 122 (which was originally the companion course to biology 121)

124 was basically a 3 hour/week lab + 1 hour/week lecture course.

 

[cRose]

I second (or third?) anyone who's recommended checking with the admissions departments of the schools that interest you.

Also, many schools have a course description for every pre-req that they require for admission on their websites. You could always take a look at those and compare to the course description for the class you're questioning to see if it fits the curriculum.

Although, I also agree with others that most schools will probably want an actual biochem course, that extensively and exclusively covers biochemical pathways, etc.

 

[sumstorm]

Interesting. Talk to the schools. I think it will probably count, but you want to hear that (or see it preferably in an email or letter) that it will count. I would be suprised if Penn doesn't have a satisfactory intro sequence.

 

[sunnex3]

yeah it's interesting because many of the premed/prevet students here take the biol 121/124 sequence...and unfortunately the year i began school was the year they did away with the regular 122 second semester course...

i've emailed the associate dean of admissions at the penn vet school and asked him how i should deal with this issue.

 

[sunnex3]

also, i emailed many schools tonight with a short description of the biochem course i will be taking.

however, i'm now rethinking my decision not to take the upper level biochem course (a 400 level course) that is offered at penn. now, i'm thinking i'll take it my last semester here (it'll be tough to fit it in before then)

argh.

 

[dgm]

Hi Sunnex, I took my prereqs at Penn, and last fall I mistakenly signed up for Cell Bio & Biochem, since it had "Biochem" in the name and was a prereq for Biochemistry (BIOL 402). The first thing the professor told us was that the course is really a cell bio course and just takes a quick glance at biochem. I was looking to satisfy biochem requirements, so I high-tailed it outta there and wrote a panicky email to the professor of the Biochemistry (BIOL 402) course asking whether was any way I could register for his class without having taken Cell Bio & Biochem. He agreed.

Point being, I think for any schools that require biochem, you're going to need BIOL 402 and BIOL 202 is not going to cut it. And, assuming you're not already taking BIOL 202, you may be able to skip it and go straight to regular Biochem if you ask nicely.

As for the 2 semesters of gen bio, I can't help you there, because I took 101 & 102 instead of 121 & whatever else...

Hope that helped at least a little.

Diane

 

[sunnex3]

yeah i've already adjusted my schedule to include the upper level biochem, biol 402, the last semester of my senior year..

the only problem is that i have to take biol 202 for my major anyway, so i need to take both in the end...

 

[eatpinkpenguins]

I took cell bio and biochem at Penn also, and contacted VAMD, Illinois, and Tufts. The biochem needs to have an orgo pre-req, so unfortunately, that class won't cut it. I'm taking the 400-level now (luckily my grade doesn't matter and I can slack off although I recently learned that if you send a PennVet transcript, your undergrad Penn classes will be on it too 🙁 ) , but you need to take 202 as a pre-req. Also, you will be at an EXTREME disadvantage for the first exam in biochem if you don't.

 

[sunnex3]

eatpinkpenguins, is professor rea your professor for bio 402? i had him for bio 121 and he was great(thought it was a legitimately super difficult class)

i was just wondering what you thought of the class...

 

[Ben and Me]

As for only have 4 credits of intro Bio, I had the same problem. My school stopped teaching it because "nobody enjoyed taking or teaching it." Nevermind that some of us HAVE to take it....but I digress. I contacted all the schools I was interested in applying to--there were a lot that I emailed!

A few schools were okay with it, even though they required 8, because I had taken several upper level bio courses as well. I think most were willing to count Animal Physiology (300-level) as the 2nd semester of intro bio. It probably helped that I was also a bio major. Some were NOT willing to count it--Auburn definitely wasn't--they wanted me to take Zoology to count as the second semester, and I didn't have enough room left in my schedule, so I just didn't apply there!

Here is where I applied with only 4 credits of "intro" bio:

-NCSU (only requires 4 credits anyway!)
-Penn
-Illinois
-Minnesota
-Miss St
-VMRCVM
-CSU

Don't take my experience with each of these schools though--definitely email them yourself. They may have their changed policy, etc.

 

[sunnex3]

i wonder if my animal nutrition course (ansci212) that i took at cornell during the summer a couple years ago would count for the 2nd semester gen. bio requirement...i've had transfer credit approved at penn for it.

the thing is that at penn, we don't even have a zoology course - but we do have a vertebrate physiology course.

 

[DocDVMD]

My school stopped teaching it because "nobody enjoyed taking or teaching it."

Um... that's completely absurd.

 

[DocDVMD]

i wonder if my animal nutrition course (ansci212) that i took at cornell during the summer a couple years ago would count for the 2nd semester gen. bio requirement...i've had transfer credit approved at penn for it.

Don't count my word on this, but I doubt that will fulfill the requirement. I've taken that course and it just doesn't teach the same material. On the other hand, I actually used AP credit to place out of all 8 credits of intro bio, and I didn't have a problem with any schools I applied to. I made sure the AP credit was on my college transcript. For those schools that were a little iffy on it, they approved my Animal Science intro courses (domestic animal biology) as replacements.

 

[sunnex3]

well i'm not sure what else i can do...
the 2nd semester companion course to another intro bio course (biol 101) is biol 102, but of course, if you took biol 121/biol 124, like i did, you are not allowed to take biol 102 for credit (biol 102 is a full lecture + lab course)

nor does penn offer zoology. the closest thing is vertebrate physiology.
but i am taking a class in genetics...and will be taking a cell bio class...and i'm a bio major...i've contacted the associate dean of admissions at penn, as he's probably familiar with this problem...

 

[tpad40]

I also did not have a full year of intro bio - it was a single semester course. I had taken a lot of bio (I am a bio/math major). Since I am not a responsible applicant, I just submitted my transcripts and figured it couldn't be that big of a deal since I had a lot of upper level bio courses (genetics, cell bio, etc.). It worked out, but reading this I probably should have been a little more concerned 🙄.

 

[No Imagination]

In my experience, once you are past the VMCAS stage, most schools work with you. Many schools require Genetics, well, most schools accept Molecular Biology instead of Genetics (totally different IMO).

A lot of vet schools still have Inorganic Chemistry listed as their pre-req's, when they in fact mean "General Chemistry" - Totally different, and I am sure anyone who went through a real Inorganic can attest.

Many schools require Zoology, but those same schools recognize that Zoology is usually bundled in Bio I and II, and they accept it.

I think they tend to look at the big picture of your application - and while it's not a guarantee, you would be hard pressed to get your degree, and fulfill every requirement for every vet school in 4 years. Not to mention, vet schools requirements change.

 

[Ben and Me]

I don't think that it has to be a physiology course--I just used that for many schools because most of the other upper level lab bio classed I'd taken (Micro, Genetics, etc) counted as separate pre-reqs. I'm sure any sort of upper level biology course with a lab would count--Immunology, Endocrinology, Anatomy, etc. That cell bio class you're taking would probably suffice for most schools.

In retrospect, I think I actually emailed all the schools with a list of Bio courses I'd taken, along with their description in the course catalog, and let the schools decide whether one of them would count or not.

I think No Imagination is right--most schools are pretty willing to work with you, as long as you show that you're doing the best you can and trying to get the courses done in a way that works with what your undergrad school offers.

 

[eatpinkpenguins]

I'm taking the night class w DiAngelo. He's a nice guy, but not the best lecturers. Gets excited and speaks too quickly. And all the pre-meds just complain incessantly about the MCAT and I'm already in vetschool for next year, so I'm not particularly motivated to memorize all of the enzymes. At all. I know its bad. I will need to learn them next year. I just have no attention span anymore. In the baseemnt. No windows. Until 9:30 at night. That being said, thank god I'm taking it this semester and not last!

As far as bio goes, if worst comes to worst, maybe you can take it over the summer somewhere? I know thats sucks to pay $$ waste time etc, but you could always take it somewhere like villanova or something. Penn takes AP credit for bio, so maybe they will be lax about it, and so does Tufts, but Cornell is pretty stringent about taking the intro sequence. The penn admissions people are pretty friendly though so don't be shy!

 

[sunnex3]

yeah i would take a 2nd semester intro bio course at home somewhere, but i'm already taking physics this summer and next summer.

am i really going to get penalized for a problem that is the result of the structure of my school's biology course sequence, and not a choice that i made on my own?

i mean, i couldn't take any other course but this semi 2nd semester gen. bio course... i just think it's so unfair 🙁 i mean there's so many pre-health people at penn, are they all going to get screwed?? (since most med/vet schools require 2 semesters of bio????)

 

[sumstorm]

you certainly could. Not all schools offer animal nutrtition, genetics, or biochem (at least, not when I was in undergrad...it just started being a pre-req.)

It is possible to do 2 courses in the summer....not fun, but possible.

life, education, and vet school admissions are far from fair. at least as far as I have observed.

 

[sunnex3]

it's not that i'm not willing to do so, it'd just be really expensive for me to do so. there's only 1 state univeristy around where i live, and it's a bit too far for me commute. so i'm taking my physics at a private univreisty in my area for the next 2 summers.

i can't take the other 2nd semester bio course they have for students at penn on the less advanced bio track - it wouldn't count as credit for me, because i took the more advanced track. argh

i've already begun to realize as a sophomore that vet school admissions is FAR From fair 🙁

 

[sunnex3]

and i just want to add a side note:
i haven't been posting on this forum for very long, but i'm already REALLY REALLY thankful for all the advice people have given me already. it has been immensely helpful for me, you guys are actually more helpful than the associate dean of admissions at penn vet is! 😉

just wanted to say i really appreciate it all!

 

[Konfetkette]

I have nothing to contribute here. I never took biochem and I don't know anything about that class. However, I did just graduate from Penn, so hello.

That being said, ill give you the really really safe answer, which is, contact the schools you are interested in and ask. I know some schools specifically require 2 semesters of a year long biochem course, which means this probably wont cut it. Some schools only require 1 semester of biochem and maybe this will cut it. Some schools, like Penn, require no biochem, so it all depends.

Horray for Penn and not requiring biochem

I've always wondered why a good school like Penn will only require one semester of organic! It's crazy right. Do you know why?

To the OP, vet schools tend to want Biochem which have Orgo as a prerequisite. Does the class have Orgo as a prereq?

 

[WildlifeSaver]

I think 3 people that have been posting in here got into penn vet med and they went to penn undergrad. They really do want their students..

 

[sunnex3]

I think 3 people that have been posting in here got into penn vet med and they went to penn undergrad. They really do want their students..

it's true - all the people i know here at penn who applied to penn vet got in! 😱

 

[WildlifeSaver]

it's true - all the people i know here at penn who applied to penn vet got in! 😱

Damn I wish I was valedictorian in HS so I could of went to penn. Maybe I will try for a masters there..haha

 

[sunnex3]

Damn I wish I was valedictorian in HS so I could of went to penn. Maybe I will try for a masters there..haha

we have great graduate programs too 🙂

 

[No Imagination]

They still call you future VMD guys "Penn Wee's"?

Story I heard, there is/was a habit among penn vets to preface their statements with "At Penn we... (do things this way)"