Blocking Cancer research?

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marcus_aurelius

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Here is an interesting and devious notion I have heard a few times. I wanted to see if anyone else has heard about this or believes in this notion....

I've heard that there are "cures" for a few cancers out there and that these breakthroughs have been kept under wraps by drug companies and other powerful lobbies that are making much more in chemo and other therapies than they could with a "cure."

I also heard that much of the rainforest land that is purchased in the name of research just sits there un-used and that these purchases were done to impede the land available for investigating new drug extracts from the local vegetation.

Could this be possible, or do you think it is a crazy notion of some paranoid individuals out there.....

if it was, then what is the point of going into research....or is research a cover up for expanding the boundaries of biological warfare? (something else i heard by a "crazy" guy)

what do u think?...i was thinking that if war was used as a means to fill a pocket book, then maybe this notion might not me that off...i dont know, but the thought itself is sickening.

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marcus_aurelius said:
Here is an interesting and devious notion I have heard a few times. I wanted to see if anyone else has heard about this or believes in this notion....

I've heard that there are "cures" for a few cancers out there and that these breakthroughs have been kept under wraps by drug companies and other powerful lobbies that are making much more in chemo and other therapies than they could with a "cure."

I also heard that much of the rainforest land that is purchased in the name of research just sits there un-used and that these purchases were done to impede the land available for investigating new drug extracts from the local vegetation.

Could this be possible, or do you think it is a crazy notion of some paranoid individuals out there.....

if it was, then what is the point of going into research....or is research a cover up for expanding the boundaries of biological warfare? (something else i heard by a "crazy" guy)

what do u think?...i was thinking that if war was used as a means to fill a pocket book, then maybe this notion might not me that off...i dont know, but the thought itself is sickening.

Yes this is true, in fact, Drug companies poured BILLIONS into researching the cure for cancer just so they could hold the patent then sit on it, they made the cure in pill form and in a specific color so they could change it every couple decades to extend the patent....Furthermore NOBODY from the clinical trial, or thier family members or physicians, that saw evidence of this cure-all has spoken about it, I suspect alien involvment. Oh no wait, a public agency funded study found the cure and the PI decided that the nobel prize was a small reward for the smug satisfaction of having the cure all to himself. Furthermore, the agency supplying the grant money never demanded to see any results.
 
marcus_aurelius said:
Here is an interesting and devious notion I have heard a few times. I wanted to see if anyone else has heard about this or believes in this notion....

I've heard that there are "cures" for a few cancers out there and that these breakthroughs have been kept under wraps by drug companies and other powerful lobbies that are making much more in chemo and other therapies than they could with a "cure."

I also heard that much of the rainforest land that is purchased in the name of research just sits there un-used and that these purchases were done to impede the land available for investigating new drug extracts from the local vegetation.

Could this be possible, or do you think it is a crazy notion of some paranoid individuals out there.....

if it was, then what is the point of going into research....or is research a cover up for expanding the boundaries of biological warfare? (something else i heard by a "crazy" guy)

what do u think?...i was thinking that if war was used as a means to fill a pocket book, then maybe this notion might not me that off...i dont know, but the thought itself is sickening.

There are some cancers that are cured by chemotherapy. Many cancers are curable through surgery as well. I never understood your argument, not all cancers are the same. However, in a patient with metastatic disease, there is no chance for recovery and chemotherapy become palliative and the patient must decide if it is "worth" the course of treatment.

Also, people will continue to get cancer whether or not there is a cure. If a drug company came up with an effective drug for a particular cancer, they stand to make even more money.
 
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dynx said:
Yes this is true, in fact, Drug companies poured BILLIONS into researching the cure for cancer just so they could hold the patent then sit on it, they made the cure in pill form and in a specific color so they could change it every couple decades to extend the patent....Furthermore NOBODY from the clinical trial, or thier family members or physicians, that saw evidence of this cure-all has spoken about it, I suspect alien involvment. Oh no wait, a public agency funded study found the cure and the PI decided that the nobel prize was a small reward for the smug satisfaction of having the cure all to himself. Furthermore, the agency supplying the grant money never demanded to see any results.


it is possible to express your views without being entirely sarcastic.

is somebody compensating for a small penis?

any other views?....i thought these notions were a little ludicrous too, but i wanted to know what others of you thought.....
 
marcus_aurelius said:
it is possible to express your views without being entirely sarcastic.

NO

marcus_aurelius said:
is somebody compensating for a small penis?

Yes

marcus_aurelius said:
any other views?.....

I doubt it

marcus_aurelius said:
...i thought these notions were a little ludicrous too

And yet you still asked

marcus_aurelius said:
but i wanted to know what others of you thought.....

I told you then you criticized my penis, thats no way to encourage discussion
 
Drug companies are competing against each other. There are tons of lawsuits of drug companies sueing each other.

If a pharma company stumbled upon a bona fide cure, they would instantly grab 100% of market share for that disease, and totally dominate the other players.

The average tenure of a CEO is 7 years. They are interested in short term profits that make shareholders happy, not long term 25 year profits.

Shareholders would go absolutely bananas if they knew there was a cure for a disease, even if the long term profits are lower. Stock price would skyrocket overnight, the company would multiply its profits/total value 10 times over, velvet robes would part and champagne would fall from the heavens.

Profit motive FAVORS cures, it doesnt hinder them
 
marcus_aurelius said:
Here is an interesting and devious notion I have heard a few times. I wanted to see if anyone else has heard about this or believes in this notion....

I've heard that there are "cures" for a few cancers out there and that these breakthroughs have been kept under wraps by drug companies and other powerful lobbies that are making much more in chemo and other therapies than they could with a "cure."

I also heard that much of the rainforest land that is purchased in the name of research just sits there un-used and that these purchases were done to impede the land available for investigating new drug extracts from the local vegetation.

Could this be possible, or do you think it is a crazy notion of some paranoid individuals out there.....

if it was, then what is the point of going into research....or is research a cover up for expanding the boundaries of biological warfare? (something else i heard by a "crazy" guy)

what do u think?...i was thinking that if war was used as a means to fill a pocket book, then maybe this notion might not me that off...i dont know, but the thought itself is sickening.


Stop reading Tom Clancy and pickup a goddamn Robbins you ****.
 
marcus_aurelius said:
Here is an interesting and devious notion I have heard a few times. I wanted to see if anyone else has heard about this or believes in this notion....

I've heard that there are "cures" for a few cancers out there and that these breakthroughs have been kept under wraps by drug companies and other powerful lobbies that are making much more in chemo and other therapies than they could with a "cure."

I also heard that much of the rainforest land that is purchased in the name of research just sits there un-used and that these purchases were done to impede the land available for investigating new drug extracts from the local vegetation.

Could this be possible, or do you think it is a crazy notion of some paranoid individuals out there.....

if it was, then what is the point of going into research....or is research a cover up for expanding the boundaries of biological warfare? (something else i heard by a "crazy" guy)

what do u think?...i was thinking that if war was used as a means to fill a pocket book, then maybe this notion might not me that off...i dont know, but the thought itself is sickening.
Oh, my God. When I did a Hem/Onc rotation, the doctor had to explain this to at least one patient everyday. I never heard of these conspiracy theories until I got to his office, and I thought it was just something strange he got. I see now it's more common than I thought.
 
This is one of the saddest posts I have ever seen!

The worst part is that 1/3 of the American population believes that cancer is 'cured' and for financial reasons, being stifled.

I just learned about all this b.s. in my cancer immunobiology class--this is absurd, especially on a medical student post, you should be more informed, and help your patients be more informed for that matter.

At a time like this, when congress is considering cutting funds to the NIH, we do not need this chatter out there. :thumbdown:
 
THP said:
There are some cancers that are cured by chemotherapy.

I'm sorry-- which cancers? which subtypes? Rituxan for Hodgkin's is the closest we've ever gotten (80% success)

Did I miss lectures about the chemo cure in my classes?
 
THP said:
There are some cancers that are cured by chemotherapy.

I'm sorry-- which cancers? which subtypes? Rituxan for Hodgkin's is the closest we've ever gotten (80% success), and its not even a chemotherapy!!

Did I miss lectures about the chemo cure in my classes?
 
marcus_aurelius said:
it is possible to express your views without being entirely sarcastic.

is somebody compensating for a small penis?

any other views?....i thought these notions were a little ludicrous too, but i wanted to know what others of you thought.....
i can't imagine this being true. Why would a PI or company give up the prestige, and fame, not to mention money to hold back such a monumentary accomplishment? Don't people go into medicine to cure the sick and dying? Don't research scientists try to find the answer to scientific challenges? I think it's crazy to hold back such information, not to mention unethical.

And I agree with the other posters who said there are hundreds of different cancers with different etiologies, pathologies and mode of spread. They also have different cures and whereas some cancers already have effective cures or 5 year survival rates, others do not and research still seems to have a long way to go to "cure cancer". I don't expect there will be one cure for all cancers...ever.
 
curlycorday said:
I'm sorry-- which cancers? which subtypes? Rituxan for Hodgkin's is the closest we've ever gotten (80% success), and its not even a chemotherapy!!

Did I miss lectures about the chemo cure in my classes?

I suppose it depends on your definition of cure. If chemotherapy is curing 80% of patients, then I consider that a cure.

Its been over a year since I had heme/onc but I also recall that Burkitt's lymphoma, if caught early enough, has an excellent prognosis. Something like 90% or greater.

Obviously there are many factors that go into cancer prognosis. The stage and type are very important. While stage 4 Burkitt's might not be curable, stage 1 is.
 
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Fantasy Sports said:
Stop reading Tom Clancy and pickup a goddamn Robbins you ****.

:laugh: :laugh: :laugh:
 
Fine line between justified concern and paranoia...

Economically makes no sense to withold a cure for cancer

Now of course that doesn't mean certain infectious diseases (Lyme...) might not have a bacteriological warfare etiology :)
 
MacGyver said:
Drug companies are competing against each other. There are tons of lawsuits of drug companies sueing each other.

If a pharma company stumbled upon a bona fide cure, they would instantly grab 100% of market share for that disease, and totally dominate the other players.

The average tenure of a CEO is 7 years. They are interested in short term profits that make shareholders happy, not long term 25 year profits.

Shareholders would go absolutely bananas if they knew there was a cure for a disease, even if the long term profits are lower. Stock price would skyrocket overnight, the company would multiply its profits/total value 10 times over, velvet robes would part and champagne would fall from the heavens.

Profit motive FAVORS cures, it doesnt hinder them

thanks for a good post

again, i just wanted to see what your reactions would be to my post.

you all did very well.
 
curlycorday said:
This is one of the saddest posts I have ever seen!



I just learned about all this b.s. in my cancer immunobiology class--this is absurd, especially on a medical student post, you should be more informed,

At a time like this, when congress is considering cutting funds to the NIH, we do not need this chatter out there. :thumbdown:

huh? :p
 
curlycorday said:
I'm sorry-- which cancers? which subtypes? Rituxan for Hodgkin's is the closest we've ever gotten (80% success), and its not even a chemotherapy!!

Did I miss lectures about the chemo cure in my classes?




I do believe bleomycin, etoposide and cisplatin have cure rates of over 90-95% for testicular cancer. They certainly worked for me when I was diagnosed with it. Apparently you did miss something.
 
This reminds me of the people who think that they government has a cure for AIDS but keeps it a secret because they want all the minorities to die from it or something. Kanye West even talks about it in one of his songs.

First of all the government won't come up with an AIDS cure, a drug company will, and, just as was stated above, they would never keep something like that a secret when they could make such huge amounts of money from it.
 
THP said:
However, in a patient with metastatic disease, there is no chance for recovery and chemotherapy become palliative and the patient must decide if it is "worth" the course of treatment.
QUOTE]

Not entirely true. High dose IL-2 alone has an objective response rate of ~15% in patients with metastatic melanoma, and a complete response rate of ~6-7% (See Atkins MB et al., High-dose recombinant interleukin 2 therapy for patients with metastatic melanoma: analysis of 270 patients treated between 1985 and 1993, JCO 1999). Many of these CRs are durable (eg. cure).

Similar results are also seen with metastatic renal cell (see Fyfe G., Results of treatment of 255 patients with metastatic renal cell carcinoma who received high-dose recombinant interleukin-2 therapy.
JCOl. 1995 Mar;13(3):688-96).

CTLA-4 blockade can also give rise to an OR of ~15% in patients with metastatic melanoma (see Phan G et al., PNAS 2003).

Most recently, adoptive cell transfer (ACT) of tumor infiltrating lymphocytes, in combination with non-myeloablative pre-conditioning with Cy/Flu and high dose IL-2, has ORs of 45-->50% with melanoma (see Dudley ME et al., Science 2002 and Dudley ME et al., JCO 2005). Trials of ACT with lymphodepletion for patients with RCC are underway.

These are examples using immunotherapy approaches.

Germ cell tumors, such as testicular ca, are remarkably amenable to traditional chemo, even in the setting of metastatic disease.

Your point is well taken, however, that metastatic cancer is a very challenging disease for which we do not currently have adequate therapies in most cases.

-PB
 
curlycorday said:
I'm sorry-- which cancers? which subtypes? Rituxan for Hodgkin's is the closest we've ever gotten (80% success)

Did I miss lectures about the chemo cure in my classes?

See my post above, with references. There are examples outside of the realm of hematologic malignancies that can be cured.

-PB
 
there is a cure for cancer...it just took a few moments on google to find it:

" Chuck Norris' tears cure cancer. Too bad he has never cried. Ever. "
 
PickyBicky said:
THP said:
However, in a patient with metastatic disease, there is no chance for recovery and chemotherapy become palliative and the patient must decide if it is "worth" the course of treatment.
QUOTE]

Not entirely true. High dose IL-2 alone has an objective response rate of ~15% in patients with metastatic melanoma, and a complete response rate of ~6-7% (See Atkins MB et al., High-dose recombinant interleukin 2 therapy for patients with metastatic melanoma: analysis of 270 patients treated between 1985 and 1993, JCO 1999). Many of these CRs are durable (eg. cure).

Similar results are also seen with metastatic renal cell (see Fyfe G., Results of treatment of 255 patients with metastatic renal cell carcinoma who received high-dose recombinant interleukin-2 therapy.
JCOl. 1995 Mar;13(3):688-96).

CTLA-4 blockade can also give rise to an OR of ~15% in patients with metastatic melanoma (see Phan G et al., PNAS 2003).

Most recently, adoptive cell transfer (ACT) of tumor infiltrating lymphocytes, in combination with non-myeloablative pre-conditioning with Cy/Flu and high dose IL-2, has ORs of 45-->50% with melanoma (see Dudley ME et al., Science 2002 and Dudley ME et al., JCO 2005). Trials of ACT with lymphodepletion for patients with RCC are underway.

These are examples using immunotherapy approaches.

Germ cell tumors, such as testicular ca, are remarkably amenable to traditional chemo, even in the setting of metastatic disease.

Your point is well taken, however, that metastatic cancer is a very challenging disease for which we do not currently have adequate therapies in most cases.

-PB

Point conceded. I was not aware of those particular examples.
 
THP said:
PickyBicky said:
Point conceded. I was not aware of those particular examples.


Not a dis at all. You're exactly right....these are only a few examples, limited to a very small number of histologies (the number of cases of melanoma each year are a log lower than lung ca). The burden of disease is tremendous and treatment options (this is specifically for widely diseminated disease...not local or regional) are dreadfully small. I agree with the above post: we should not let "chatter" that "the cure" has been found but miserly MDs and big pharma are holding back because of profit motives become widely disseminated. It's cruel to patients, and it's potentially detrimental to current research efforts and funding. If anything, the opposite is true: pharma and MDs claiming results of efficacy which are not supported by the data. Just like at the IMclone scandal, for example. Another example: forged data in preventative measures of oral cancer (see below)

From Science, Jan. 27th, 2006:

SCIENTIFIC MISCONDUCT:
Fraud Upends Oral Cancer Field, Casting Doubt on Prevention Trial
Jennifer Couzin and Michael Schirber
The world of oral cancer research is reeling after one of its stars, Norwegian oncologist Jon Sudbø, admitted this week through his attorney to falsifying data in three seminal papers published by top medical journals. A fourth paper is under suspicion after editors at the New England Journal of Medicine (NEJM) found that it contains a pair of duplicate images. For one of the papers, in The Lancet, Sudbø also appears to have claimed funding from a nonexistent grant.

The revelations have put on hold a multimillion-dollar oral cancer prevention trial, sponsored in part by the U.S. National Cancer Institute. The affair has also raised questions about whether researchers in multi-institutional collaborations should do more to double-check the validity of data collected by others. The fraud is all the more unsettling given the recent fabrications by South Korean researcher Woo Suk Hwang in stem cell science (Science, 13 January, p. 156).


Fraud exposed. Cancer researcher Jon Sudbø acknowledged faking data in three of these papers, and journal editors found a duplicated image in the fourth.


"Something like this, coming so hard on the stem cell revelation, is almost catastrophic," says Fadlo Khuri, an oncologist at Emory University in Atlanta, Georgia. Sudbø's results, he says, "are among the most important findings of the last decade [in] understanding the biology" of oral cancer.
The Norwegian Radium Hospital, where Sudbø is based, has launched an investigation led by Anders Ekbom of the Karolinska Institute in Stockholm. Sudbø's 38 published articles will be reviewed, as will the role of his co-authors, one of whom is his twin brother and another his wife. Results are expected in a couple of months. "We don't have any suspicions that the other authors knew," says Stein Vaaler, director of strategy at the hospital, which has already found that hundreds of patient records were fabricated in the Lancet paper.

Some papers in question identified those at greatest risk of oral cancer, a disease often preceded by noncancerous mouth lesions. Just 20% to 30% of individuals with lesions develop oral cancer, confounding prevention efforts.

The earliest paper to contain false data, according to Sudbø's attorney, Erling Lyngtveit, appeared in NEJM in April 2004. It reported that 26 of 27 individuals with aneuploid mouth lesions, so called because they contain abnormal numbers of chromosomes, developed aggressive oral cancer and were more likely to die of the disease than were those with other types of lesions. Lyngtveit confirmed that Sudbø did not have access to death information on which the study's conclusion was based. (Sudbø is currently on sick leave and has not spoken publicly.)

That 2004 study built on one that appeared 3 years earlier in NEJM that identified aneuploid mouth lesions as unusually hazardous. Eighty-four percent of study volunteers with the lesions developed oral cancer. On 20 January, NEJM released an "Expression of Concern" stating that one of the paper's images of a mouth lesion is a magnified version of another in the same article. The journal, says a spokesperson, is awaiting the results from the Radium Hospital's investigation before determining how to handle both studies.

Two other reports that Sudbø's attorney told Science contain fabrications were published in the 20 March 2005 issue of the Journal of Clinical Oncology and the 15 October 2005 issue of The Lancet. The first concluded that smokers with mouth lesions, if told they were at high risk of oral cancer, were likelier to quit than were those without detectable lesions. The second, in The Lancet, claimed to draw on archived health records to show that long-term use of anti-inflammatory drugs reduced the risk of oral cancer.

That study was the first to attract suspicion. Several weeks ago, Camilla Stoltenberg, director of epidemiology at the Norwegian Institute of Public Health, noticed that the Lancet study relied on a database not yet available to researchers, and she alerted the Radium Hospital on 11 January. An internal investigation by the hospital concluded that Sudbø "fabricated all the data in the article," which included names, genders, diagnoses, and other variables for 908 people. The paper also cites funding from a Norwegian Cancer Society grant even though the proposal was rejected, says society spokesperson Terje Mosnesset.

An immediate casualty of the fraud may be a 360-person trial of the anti-inflammatory Celebrex, along with another drug, in healthy people with aneuploid mouth lesions. The cancer prevention trial garnered roughly $9 million from the National Cancer Institute in Bethesda, Maryland, and was to be led by Sudbø and Scott Lippman of the M. D. Anderson Cancer Center in Houston, Texas, who was a co-author on the 2004 NEJM paper and the Lancet paper. "Everything has to be put on hold," says M. D. Anderson Vice President for Research Administration Leonard Zwelling.

The hospital, he adds, will consider new ways to handle large population studies in which its researchers analyze results but may not see the raw data. "Should we have an independent board" to examine those data, Zwelling wonders.

Meanwhile, oral cancer experts are grappling with the fabrications and whether the aneuploid work will stand. Notes Richard Jordan, an oral pathologist at the University of California, San Francisco, aneuploid lesions weren't "100% predictive, but [they] were the best that anyone heard of."


-PB
 
marcus_aurelius said:
or do you think it is a crazy notion of some paranoid individuals out there.....

I think you should explore this possibility
 
THP said:
Your point is well taken, however, that metastatic cancer is a very challenging disease for which we do not currently have adequate therapies in most cases.
-PB

My point as well--it is not as though there is a 'silver bullet' for cancer-- a common misconception that is (obviously from this post) a counterproductive trend in public thinking.
 
Perhaps all of these urban legends come from playing the patent game, which most drug manufacturers do play. That is, all of their big, big money comes while drugs are on patent. If they have a next-generation version of a drug, they'll often withhold the release of that drug until the patent on a previous generation is up, so that they can milk them both for all their worth. That being said, the only reason witholding release of a drug makes sense is if the new drug isn't all that different from an old drug and the patent on the old drug is currently maintaining a huge market share.

If someone came up with a cure for cancer, or even a type or sub-type of cancer, they'd likely move from a portion of the market share to the entire market share just by virtue of the drug being that much better. Therefore, it doesn't make any sense to withold a drug when it's that much better.

My old PI from undergrad was previously head of an R&D lab at a major manufacturer and he told me about the patent games. I know that may not tell you much, but I believe the dude.
 
This cure cancer topic is a little misleading. Cancer will not be cured by one single finding. Instead it takes an understanding of specific pathways that lead to variations in certain cancer types and for other types of cancers. Remember, pathway specific is the way to target cancer.

There are some types of cancers that are cured. There are some types of cancers that will never be cured (due to molecular evolution rate purposes).
 
This cure cancer topic is a little misleading. Cancer will not be cured by one single finding. Instead it takes an understanding of specific pathways that lead to variations in certain cancer types and for other types of cancers. Remember, pathway specific is the way to target cancer.

There are some types of cancers that are cured. There are some types of cancers that will never be cured (due to molecular evolution rate purposes).
 
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