Blood draws!

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. I know at some schools (maybe all?) there's a kind of segregation in the beginning between the students who have vet tech skills and the ones who don't. That's one of the things that makes me most nervous about starting school... :)

I haven't heard this previously. Can you expound on your statement a little more? What type of segregation and why are you nervous about it? Thanks.

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I haven't heard this previously. Can you expound on your statement a little more? What type of segregation and why are you nervous about it? Thanks.

Separate classes for the "experienced" vs "non-experienced freaks", we will sit at different lunch tables, sit in different areas of the lecture halls and have awesome dance-off battles- think west side story meets vet school. :D

No, in all seriousness, I have heard of this a bit (read: A TINY bit) but I think only in the fact that when you first get to vet school and people compare what they did to get in, share stories etc.. and the more experienced people may brag a bit. I think after the first test annihilates everyone, however, the dance-offs may end.
 
Separate classes for the "experienced" vs "non-experienced freaks", we will sit at different lunch tables, sit in different areas of the lecture halls and have awesome dance-off battles- think west side story meets vet school. :D

No, in all seriousness, I have heard of this a bit (read: A TINY bit) but I think only in the fact that when you first get to vet school and people compare what they did to get in, share stories etc.. and the more experienced people may brag a bit. I think after the first test annihilates everyone, however, the dance-offs may end.

*snort* This made me giggle. Yeah, I anticipate the usual initial posturing and showing off (think peacocks).
And they we realize we're all WAY in a lot of trouble. :laugh:
 
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I mean this in the nicest way possible, what have you all been doing in all those experience hours if you haven't learned to draw blood or whatnot? I'm just genuinely curious-- I've only been in my new job three days now and they're having me start learning how to place catheters and do dental work.
 
It's not a job, it is shadowing. For legal reasons not really allowed to "do" tasks although never entirely hands off. Some of us don't have the time to work as a regular employee.

I have sat in on countless appointments and observed hundreds of hours of surgery (and other procedures). If you want to know the steps in doing a TPLO, I'm your student.
 
Don't feel way behind in terms of technical skills. By the time we get through 3 years of class work most of us who HAVE lots of technical experience will be just as vein ******ed as everyone else :) Technical skills are a "use it or lose it" set that you have to keep working on or you run the risk of losing your technique and "feel". I might have perfected the art of zen and phlebotomy NOW, but in 3 years from now I'll likely be fumbling around a bit too!

And furthermore, anyone who segregates from you based on their technical prowess is a bit of a blowhard anyhow! I've known that I've wanted to be a vet since I was 5 years old. While its still weird to me that others HAVEN'T, I recognize that a lot of folks don't start getting in experience hours until they're in high school or college and don't have the time to get a lot of training in. Ideally a good tech should be interested in teaching you those skills, not in flaunting them!

Like I told PigsRock when she first said she was accepted into VMRCVM (she had a 3.9 gpa I think), I'm willing to help teach anyone their technical skills if they're willing to help me with the schoolwork!
 
It really depends on the clinic and what the vets and more experienced techs let you do. I know that at the clinic I work at only the vet is allowed to place catheters. The vet used to let techs place years ago but hasn't for a long time. As far as drawing blood you are not allowed to learn until you have mastered restraining an animal first at my clinic. Also we are not the busiest clinic around so it takes longer to build up skills since there aren't as many animals coming in as at other clinics.
 
I definitely didn't mean it in a condescending way, I'm just curious as to what the other side is-- and what I'm missing out on in terms of shadowing-types of experience! I've only actually "shadowed" a few times, all of my vet experience thus far has been in the context of a job-- though the vets at my hospital know I'm pre-vet so they are nice enough to take extra time to describe things while we're working sometimes! (And I can't lie, since I'm paying my way through the pre-reqs, getting paid while getting experience helps a ton. :laugh:)
 
It's also illegal for non-credentialed personnel to perform many technical skills in some jurisdictions. Even blood draws are restricted to credentialed techs in some places. And as others have said, venipuncture is a skill that needs to build on other technical skills. Please be comfortable handling a needle poking skin before you try to enter a vein!
 
I mean this in the nicest way possible, what have you all been doing in all those experience hours if you haven't learned to draw blood or whatnot? I'm just genuinely curious-- I've only been in my new job three days now and they're having me start learning how to place catheters and do dental work.

there are more things to learn in vet med than just drawing blood. personally, i had the opportunity to work as a vet tech at 2 places, i decided against it because all the vet techs i know are stuck at their jobs, that is the ONLY experience they have. I wanted to get more experience than just that. now i have wildlife, lab, research, SA and a little LA. I think i'll do fine catching up with the clinical skills in vet school. i dont regret my decision at all and i think i am more well rounded than most applicants. I also have "matured" and gone thru the diff phases of what type of vet med i want to do. i finally found my niche, lab animal, and i would have NEVER found this if i stayed as a vet tech
 
there are more things to learn in vet med than just drawing blood. personally, i had the opportunity to work as a vet tech at 2 places, i decided against it because all the vet techs i know are stuck at their jobs, that is the ONLY experience they have. I wanted to get more experience than just that. now i have wildlife, lab, research, SA and a little LA. I think i'll do fine catching up with the clinical skills in vet school. i dont regret my decision at all and i think i am more well rounded than most applicants. I also have "matured" and gone thru the diff phases of what type of vet med i want to do. i finally found my niche, lab animal, and i would have NEVER found this if i stayed as a vet tech

:thumbup:

I will agree to this even though I am one of those "stuck as a tech people". I really wish I could have gotten more varied experiences with other animals before applying. (But I started working as a tech at 17 and I needed to keep doing it throughout college to support myself). Especially now that I know that is what has been keeping me from getting acceptances. Yes I may be able to draw blood, set catheters, etc but I have never been around a horse or LA and feel like I will have a feeling of nervousness the first time I am around these animals. I also wish I could have just done the observing instead of working as well. It would be really cool to be able to sit at the sidelines and watch a surgery and see what is actually going on instead of having to watch monitors, breathing, heart rate, and hold a laser vacuum. I think once I do get into vet school though that it will be nice to have people with all different experiences and levels of experience. All of the LA/equine people can help me become more comfortable around those animals and I absolutely love teaching tech skills so I will be able to help them in that department. I really feel like having diversity in each class is what really matters in the end. So that everyone can build off of each others experiences and the entire class as a whole can benefit from each other.
 
If you can't draw blood out of a dehydrated kitten while blindfolded and one hand tied behind your back, you have to sit on the Group W bench during clinical skills. (BTW, when we kids were little and my mom worked late a lot, my dad would sing to us, "You can get anything you want, at Dad's Restaurant," as he billed mac n' cheese as "tonight's orange vegetable.")

Marycatherine, my only SA experience has been shadowing, in which the most I was allowed to do was pet some of the more friendly animals. I was there to observe and learn about what it was like to be a vet. The one time I did try to be helpful and help clean up, it was quite clear that I was more in the way than I was helpful due to not knowing the protocols for that clinic. I followed my friend around and stood in the corner for OP appointments, put a mask on and observed surgery, and sat in her office reading textbooks or shadowed other vets when she had to do her charting.

At the place where I work currently (equine), only licensed techs are allowed to take blood from the jugular or place catheters. We non-licensed techs must use the cephalic, the saphenous, or the facial venous sinus to take blood. We ARE allowed to re-suture catheters and extension in adults if the catheter is being positional or the horse has managed to rub out the sutures. At my previous job (equine, part ambulatory/part horsepital), I took blood from the jugular (and RARELY sedated horses/gave IV drugs off the needle) but never placed or sutured catheters. As for what I've been doing, drawing blood has been a fairly small part of my job at both places, except for times at my last job when we had to do Coggins for large barns, then sometimes the vet and I would split up or trade off paperwork vs. drawing blood. What have I been doing? Well, it depends.

Now (horsepital): Taking vitals. Giving meds via catheter. Giving IM, PO, topical meds. Setting up drugs for next shift. Spiking and hanging fluids. Arguing with fluid pumps. Putting ice boots on horses. Sitting on next to flailing dummy foals, and lifting/helping them to stand. Cleaning diarrhea butts. Laundry. Cleaning diarrhea butts again. Cleaning under draining tracts and wounds. Hot-packing abscesses and veins that have had catheter reactions/infections (the really sick horses are prone to getting lumps at the site of the catheter). Milking mares. Grooming horses. Picking out stalls. Running bloodwork. Holding horses/odd tasks for the residents. (At my old job, there was more job overlap, and I also did a lot of cleaning, restocking, inventory, answering phones, billing, etc.)

Ambulatory: Setting up/holding plate for radiographs. Drawing up meds for vet to give. Restraining horses. Jogging/lungeing horses for lameness exams. Gathering meds to dispense to client. Giving PO meds. Writing out findings and instructions for client after getting directions from vet. Cleaning wounds. Carrying, fetching, and handing stuff to vet. Clipping and scrubbing joints. Giving vaccines. Doing paperwork for Coggins. Keeping track of whose horse got which drugs. Taking equipment out/putting it away. Talking to chatty clients so the vet can actually get work done. Restocking truck at end of day (keeping running list during day). Asking questions (oh, wait, that wasn't my job, but the vets were awesome about answering questions and discussing cases).

DVMDream, I'm happy to teach anyone about horses. I think you learn different things doing tech work vs. shadowing vets, and there are merits to each, but ultimately I think I gain more relevant knowledge from watching and discussing cases than being caught up in having to be the one to keep the horse from moving or carry out the doctor's orders without being able to have discussions about why we are doing x, y, and z. While I will need some basic tech skills to be able to do my job as a vet, a) there are many technical skills that I won't learn until vet school and beyond, like joint injections, placing abdominal drains and chest tubes, etc. and b) being a vet is just as much, if not more, about knowing WHEN and WHY to do things than the physical act of doing them, which does not require another 4 years of school.
 
eventualeventer, thanks so much for all of the details! I have zero equine experience as of right now (though there's a barn within biking distance from my house, so it's all a matter of time :laugh:). the most I've done concerning horses has been pet them from the other side of the fence-- my parents were always extremely protective so horseback riding was a big no. I definitely think I am going to go the shadowing route towards getting my equine experience, just because I really just want to feel more comfortable around them!

my jobs have just always been the "here's a needle let's do this" type, and so to be honest I'm jealous a lot of you have gotten to really observe and learn. I'm sure after a year in vet school I'm going to be back to being nervous about drawing blood from a dog and you all will be remembering all the things you witnessed! I've been trying to use some of my lunch breaks to sit back and listen. I'm just hoping that now that I know some vets from working with them, they're going to let me come in on my days off to observe some surgeries!
 
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DVMDream, I'm happy to teach anyone about horses. I think you learn different things doing tech work vs. shadowing vets, and there are merits to each, but ultimately I think I gain more relevant knowledge from watching and discussing cases than being caught up in having to be the one to keep the horse from moving or carry out the doctor's orders without being able to have discussions about why we are doing x, y, and z. While I will need some basic tech skills to be able to do my job as a vet, a) there are many technical skills that I won't learn until vet school and beyond, like joint injections, placing abdominal drains and chest tubes, etc. and b) being a vet is just as much, if not more, about knowing WHEN and WHY to do things than the physical act of doing them, which does not require another 4 years of school.

Deal! I will trade you your horse knowledge in exchange for teaching you some tech skills! ;)
 
I'm sure after a year in vet school I'm going to be back to being nervous about drawing blood from a dog and you all will be remembering all the things you witnessed!

Hahaha, I can vouch for this... I used to pride my self on my blood draw / cath skills, but I can definitely feel them slipping... It's almost to the "needle... what's a needle?" stage with all this anatomy & physio taking up that precious space;)! I did have a nice ~4hr block to do blood draws for a feral cat spay/neuter clinic I volunteered for, & was getting back in the groove towards the end, but it was definitely strange! I felt all fumbly & uncoordinated!

I will say I wish I had gotten more opportunity to hang back & watch a bit, so definitely don't feel bad folks! And for what it's worth, I didn't feel like there was an abundance of people super familiar / comfortable w/ tech-type skills (at least small animal... part of it is probably a large portion of our class seems to be LA oriented)
 
Drew blood for the first time today - YAY!!!!!!! I've tried a few times and have been unsuccessful so I was getting a little stressed about it.

Of course, one of the doctor's response to the experience was, "well, I knew you could draw bloodcuz anyone can do that - but did you do it with a needle and did the blood go into the syringe?" lol.... good times :love:
 
Hahaha! That's awesome! The first couple times I tried to draw blood from my cat, I drew blood all right, but there was nothing in the syringe. Good for you. :)
 
I have to draw blood from my dog today for thyroid levels...My technical skill set is from 5 years ago...needless to say, I'm a little nervous to try it! :eek:
 
However, the terminal procedure was vomit inducingly disturbing! Protocol says to take a super heavily anesthetized or freshly killed mouse, just pull an eyeball out of it's socket, and then squeeze the mouse like a tube of toothpaste to "milk" the blood out of its eye socket!!! :eek: No matter how dead the animal is, I simply refuse to do that. That's just gruesome and disgusting!

BLEGH!! yeah - I think I'd be going for the cardiac option...


I have to draw blood from my dog today for thyroid levels...My technical skill set is from 5 years ago...needless to say, I'm a little nervous to try it! :eek:

at least you have a technical skill set in the 1st place. :) You can do it - give us an update later!
 
but my alternative to a cardiac puncture was to get blood from the orbital sinus. That's a common approach for survival procedures, and as disturbing as it looks, apparently it's not all that inhumane. However, the terminal procedure was vomit inducingly disturbing! Protocol says to take a super heavily anesthetized or freshly killed mouse, just pull an eyeball out of it's socket, and then squeeze the mouse like a tube of toothpaste to "milk" the blood out of its eye socket!!! :eek: No matter how dead the animal is, I simply refuse to do that. That's just gruesome and disgusting!

I know what you mean! My lab animal vet likes doing the cardiac puncture. My PI likes pulling the eyes out. I have no choice if it is an experiment under my PI usually because it needs to be a consistent method. I just make sure I give the mice a lott of drugs before I do it lol my worst fear is that they will squeak when i pull the eye out! So far that hasn't happened. Sometimes it happens when the tech does it and i'm like :mad::mad: give them more drugs! argg
 
I feel very lucky that at my first vet job I rose through the ranks from kennel girl to assistant to tech. I learned very early on how to place catheters and draw blood. I worked in a very mixed practice. Dogs, cats, rabbits, ferrets, all sorts of birds (the vet i worked for in Phoenix is highly regarded as an avian vet even though he never bothered to specialize, bird people flock to this guy), all reptiles (lots of tortoises and iguanas) small deer, turkeys, skunks, a cotamundi (that was in my first week), raccoons, monkeys (ugh, not so much fun to work with). You name it, we saw it and drew blood on it, if needed.
Had to draw blood on a parakeet, that was fun!
We never shaved, just sprayed a little alcohol on the area. We never fished. The second clinic i worked at I saw people fish for veins. Makes me cringe, please never fish for a vein! How would you like it if someone stuck a needle in your neck and moved it around wildly!
 
at least you have a technical skill set in the 1st place. :) You can do it - give us an update later!

Well, it took two tries (which is bad 'cause Lucy is a great dane!) but the second was beautiful. I think I was going at it wrong handed...the one downfall of being semi ambidextrous...and, NO hematomas! ...lol...
 
I feel very lucky that at my first vet job I rose through the ranks from kennel girl to assistant to tech. I learned very early on how to place catheters and draw blood. I worked in a very mixed practice. Dogs, cats, rabbits, ferrets, all sorts of birds (the vet i worked for in Phoenix is highly regarded as an avian vet even though he never bothered to specialize, bird people flock to this guy), all reptiles (lots of tortoises and iguanas) small deer, turkeys, skunks, a cotamundi (that was in my first week), raccoons, monkeys (ugh, not so much fun to work with). You name it, we saw it and drew blood on it, if needed.
Had to draw blood on a parakeet, that was fun!
We never shaved, just sprayed a little alcohol on the area. We never fished. The second clinic i worked at I saw people fish for veins. Makes me cringe, please never fish for a vein! How would you like it if someone stuck a needle in your neck and moved it around wildly!

Wow! That sounds amazing. :) I'm super jealous. I also agree that fishing is awful! Owwwieeee. I've had nurses do a bad job of drawing blood on me, I know how it feels!
 
I feel very lucky that at my first vet job I rose through the ranks from kennel girl to assistant to tech. I learned very early on how to place catheters and draw blood. I worked in a very mixed practice. Dogs, cats, rabbits, ferrets, all sorts of birds (the vet i worked for in Phoenix is highly regarded as an avian vet even though he never bothered to specialize, bird people flock to this guy), all reptiles (lots of tortoises and iguanas) small deer, turkeys, skunks, a cotamundi (that was in my first week), raccoons, monkeys (ugh, not so much fun to work with). You name it, we saw it and drew blood on it, if needed.
Had to draw blood on a parakeet, that was fun!
We never shaved, just sprayed a little alcohol on the area. We never fished. The second clinic i worked at I saw people fish for veins. Makes me cringe, please never fish for a vein! How would you like it if someone stuck a needle in your neck and moved it around wildly!

we don't shave either - unless we are placing a catheter... besides disliking "fishing" I also refuse to poke unless I'm POSITIVE I know it's there. We have one tech who often just starts jabbing where it "should" be if she can't palpate it...works occasionally but really makes me cringe.
 
Well my blood draw experience was kind of a sink or swim scenario. I was working in an ER clinic as an intern, we had myself, 1 tech and the doctor working that night and 2 emergencies came in. while the doctor and tech were working on one dog, the tech needed blood from the other. she asked me if I could draw blood. I told her I had seen it done about a million times but never had done it. She threw me a syringe and said good enough, give it a try. Got it on the first stick (luckily the dog was not well enough to need restraint). I was so proud of myself that I was grinning for a week.
 
I've been working as a tech for 9 years now (egads, has it been that long?!) and was trained on the job.

I will say that for any procedure, from drawing blood to taking an IOP to trimming some toenails, the #1 most important factor is having a good restrainer assisting you. Today I had to poke a poor dog three separate times, because he was so wiggly and the assistant was like a wet noodle :(

So, If you're having a tough time drawing blood, try switching legs/neck sides, and when in doubt, swap the person restraining!

I still think drawing blood on ferrets is the roughest for me because they always seem to resist restraint the most. I'll take a rabbit over a ferret any day!
I always remember interning at an exotics clinic a few years ago, and I was so proud of my IV cath I had placed in a ferret's cephalic, only to watch it shuck the entire bandage off and pull the IV out with the opposing leg. AUGH!
 
we don't shave either - unless we are placing a catheter... besides disliking "fishing" I also refuse to poke unless I'm POSITIVE I know it's there. We have one tech who often just starts jabbing where it "should" be if she can't palpate it...works occasionally but really makes me cringe.

Yes I hate "fishing" too, but I will do that if I get in right on the side of the vein and the vein is just rolling around then I will "fish" once or twice, but not more than that because I do not like to do it. I also figure that if you do not "fish" then you have to poke again which, IMO, hurts more than fishing (personal experience). Also, I wish I could "feel" veins everytime, but sometimes you get the super overweight dog or cat who you would not be able to feel a neck vein even if you're fingers were directly above the vein...it is nearly impossible. Also there are the dogs/cats with such low blood pressure that their veins are nearly non-existant. Then, you get the severly dehydrated animals that you have no other option but to "fish" for the vein because if you don't you will have to poke that dog/cat 5,000 times because finding veins on them takes some decent tech skills plus the planets lining up in just the right way that some mystical power sucks the needle into the dehydrated animals' invisible vein. Then, you can get the dog we had in last week who literally was such a complete nut that even the best restrainer had a difficult time holding the dog so we could get 1 drop of blood for a heartworm test. It took 10+ tries just to get the dog into a somewhat decent position for ATTEMPTING to draw blood and it was one of those dogs that you just poked it anyway while it was wiggling because at least the leg was staying in one spot. It took us over five minutes to get 1 drop of blood from this dog and the vet was about to give up and say nevermind. In a perfect world, I would have an animal that does not move, has veins like a garden hose (that do not roll) and the needle goes directly into the vein, but we can all guess how often that happens....;).

After 5 years being a tech, I have learned that sometimes you just have to do those "things" you do not like or prefer not to because fishing two or three times is better than poking 5 or 6. And deciding that the 30 pound, 11 year old cat's jugular vein "should" be in this area of the neck, underneath the enormous amounts of fat is better than destroying a decent leg vein that could be used for an IV catheter should that be needed in the near future. Just my two cents; which with that and 3 dollars you might be able to get a small cup of coffee. :p
 
To me "fishing" means randomly moving the needle around in hopes of possibly hitting the vein. It should (almost) never be done. Redirecting, on the other hand, is perfectly acceptable - either moving the needle in the direction of the vein that you can clearly see rolling away from you, or pulling most of the way out and trying a different angle. Purposeful redirection is fine; aimless fishing is bad.

If you can't feel a vein, it is necessary to give yourself every opportunity to see it. Shave if you have to. That's part of the joy of emergency medicine - when someone's dying, aesthetics don't really matter!
 
we don't shave either - unless we are placing a catheter... besides disliking "fishing" I also refuse to poke unless I'm POSITIVE I know it's there. We have one tech who often just starts jabbing where it "should" be if she can't palpate it...works occasionally but really makes me cringe.

Oh god I worked with a girl who EVERYTIME fished. She barely would feel and would just stick the needle right in and move it around so deeply. Yes I agree with what was said before, that in some instances it is beneficial to fish, but the people that do it on every blood draw deserve to be slapped.
Now, it has been over 2 1/2 years since i have been a tech. I'm in research now, and we are about to start the rabbit studies and i am really hoping all the skills i acquired years ago will still be there. These rabbits are $150 each and i cant screw up a catheter. :scared:
 
I work at a clinic too where I don't get alot of clinical experience. I'm more of an assitant tech. My vets and techs are great, we are just so busy that it's hard for them to slow down to walk we through some stuff. They are great at letting me participate in surgeries and things so it's pretty cool. I've been fortunate to see some amazing things. As for the blood draws, I do get to do some of those but not a lot of them. I'm still not that comfortable with it either but I feel a little better each time I try. I first learned by doing glucose curves on our diabetic dogs and cats. My first full blood draw was a jugular on a small lab. Little squirmy but I had a great tech holding so it made it easier!

Like some of you, I feel like I'm behind the eight ball in clinical experience too. I don't have large animal exposure yet. I'm trying to get some though!!

Hang in there everyone! We'll master these blood draws one of these days!

Somerset:)
 
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