Army Brigade Surgeon

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turkish

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Anyone else gotten tagged this year for an unwanted brigade surgeon position?

This is not meant to brag, but to put things in context- I'm a sub-subspecialist, teaching attending, and highest RVU producer in my department by 30%, with a combat deployment less than a year before this assignment came through...and I still got involuntarily picked up.

If you think it can't happen to you, you're wrong.

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I certainly know people (subspecialists) who have been threatened with it, although the threatener certainly didn't think he was threatening. The word on the street is that the primary care folks (or at least their leadership) were unhappy that they had to carry the brunt of the brigade surgeon weight, and they thought it would be more fair to play roulette with the specialists taking a slot here and there. They pitched that to OTSG, and as "certain people" in OTSG don't actually know what most specialists do in their practice, "they" bit. Another problem being that the people making these decisions are all operational track. So they look at a brigade surgeon spot as a good thing. Why wouldn't you be happy, this is a huge boon to your future career in the military? Again, I don't have first hand knowledge, I wasn't there.

In any case, the great thing about being rewarded with a brigade surgeon spot as a specialist is that it offers plenty of time to work. We've been assured that you'll still have time to go to the OR to maintain your skillz. You shouldn't get bogged down in paperwork and non-clinical support that prevents you from even seeing a patient. That way, in two years, you emerge still being capable of practicing medicine. It's a great investment for the military - you get to pay millions of dollars to train someone, and then you flush it straight down the toilet - at least in the case of a surgeon.

I'm sorry to hear that happened to you. If it were me, aside from pleading with everyone who'd listen, I'd at least fight like hell to maintain some clinic time.
 
i'm torn with this. as a community the primary care specialties have been bearing the brunt of brigade surgeonships and battalion surgeonships for over 10 years. we would deploy for a year or more, while the surgical folks rotated in and out every 6 months or so. it was great being "lapped" but people rotating in and out of Baghdad while i lived the high life down south at a real FOB.

i could live with some of this, but the argument of skill atrophy at the time was met with deaf ears. as a pediatrician, for instance, we did zero newborn care for a year. but an anesthesiologist, whose job in theater and back CONUS were arguably pretty damn similar, but they only had to spend half the time deployed? the same could be said for the surgical fields. at least it semi related to their jobs. the argument didn't work then, and it's not working now. because (as they said at the recent CCC-- "we will do whatever you need to get trained back up when you return"-- whatever that means)

the reason why the pain is being spread amongst other specialties now is easy. there is no more blood to give. the retention rates for pediatrics at the first "get out" point is near zero. granted, those that stay in tend to stay in for the long haul, but there's no one else in the well to draw from. they have run the primary care people into the ground and still need more bodies. spreading the burden is the only solution, and i think it's more than time for the other specialties the primary care folks have protected for so long to give their pound of flesh, too.

that's my vent session. now for the schizophrenic flip, lol:

on the other hand-- i, too, am going to be a subspecialist with a specialized skill set and at some point in the next few years will probably be tagged with one of these. we have had other subspecialists who were the n of 1 or 2 at their MEDCENs get sent to these positions as well. so we are by no means exempt. i know of a LTC who was sent for a 1 year stint as a flight surgeon in korea-- the reach of this is broad and nearly impossible to fight off. he, like many, had done a deployment (15 months), a utilization tour at a dumpy MEDDAC, and fellowship and assumed he had done his duty for the line. well, not quite-- the rules we graduated residency with (operational during CPT years then left alone during the MAJ-LTC years) have changed.

it's a complex issue-- but to me boils down to a few simple concepts.. the line gets what they want, and they don't want green wet behind the ears CPT's straight from residency. and to be honest, as a battalion surgeon i would have preferred some more rank at that position as well. they want rank because rank= respect and rank = experience/skill-- true or not. that's problem 1 for those of us in middle management.

problem 2 is that because we are intelligent, driven people (for the most part) when we are handed these "opportunities" we do a pretty good job at them. our skill set at multitasking, dealing with people (ie, patients), handling stress-- these are all things we've been doing on a daily basis that the average trigger puller doesn't appreciate. so in a way we have shot ourselves in the foot doing such a good job. it's why they absolutely refuse to have these positions filled by PA's-- they've been spoiled by overqualified doctors.

problem 3 (at least for peds) is that our TDAs for our hospitals are grossly inaccurate. so we look overstrength and fat-- when in reality we have people in leadership admin only positions, and because we only have 1 subspecialty MOS (60Q) we all look the same on paper-- whether we are peds cardiology, GI, endo, genetics, etc. it's a mess.

this is hitting everyone, everywhere-- you aren't alone, and i imagine at your brigade surgeon course you will find plenty of people in the same situation. not that it helps, but at least you can see this isn't an arbitrary "let's screw turkish" scenario. . .

at any rate-- i'm sorry you've been tagged with this, and i hope you can get some clinic/OR time to maintain your skills. and hopefully you get a unit that is near civilization and isn't deploying anytime soon. keep us posted on your travels and doings-- i'm not sure if we have any current brigade surgeon types, but it would be good to have some input into what their daily life is like for others on the board.

--your friendly neighborhood may be replacing you in a couple of years caveman
 
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I am with you that pulling a brigade spot, when you're not operational, is a problem for anyone be they primary care or not. I am also with you that 6 month deployments in light of being deployed as a bs for a year is unfair (not that the Army should be rooting for "fairness" in this one aspect of what is otherwise an unfair system). That being said, for some subspecialties pulling someone out of their department is a bigger hit than it would be for others. If you remove someone from my department, for example, evan at a MEDCEN you're pulling between 20-50% of that department for 2 years. We also have to keep our technical skills up to par. Whereas it is one thing to suffer skill fatigue in your clinical practice while still being able to keep up to date on literature, it is another thing entirely to keep up to par with your surgical skills. The only recovery that I can think of is repeating an apprenticeship.

Our retention rates are already near 0 save for a select few "lifers," without the brigade surgeon idea. This certainly won't make it better.

So while I am 100% on board with it being unfair in terms of time away from clinical practice, and while I am in 100% agreement that it's super unfair for brigade surgeons to deploy longer than anyone else, it is apples and oranges in my opinion. (and also not just in my opinion).

In any case, just another reason not to join the military. Can't remember the recruiter mentioning the possibility of being forced into a brigade surgeon spot.....weird......
 
I understand that the brigade surgeon's job is mostly administrative, but I cannot find a single person who has done this and not seen large amounts of patients in the role of primary care provider.

For those of us with no training in primary care, such as myself who spends 50% of my time looking down a microscope and 50% treating autoimmune conditions, I can't see how this is a wise use of resources. By itself, the pathology I read will run $250-$300,000 per year to be sent out to Quest or other civilian lab, as I'm in the only one in the DoD trained to read these. Add in the hundreds of inpatient and outpatients encounters I see every year, and the cost to replace me runs around $600,000 per year. Quite a bit more than your average FP tagged for a brigade surgeon role, and a foolish waste of money and personnel.
 
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I understand that the brigade surgeon's job is mostly administrative, but I cannot find a single person who has done this and not seen large amounts of patients in the role of primary care provider.

For those of us with no training in primary care, such as myself who spends 50% of my time looking down a microscope and 50% treating autoimmune conditions, I can't see how this is a wise use of resources. By itself, the pathology I read will run $250-$300,000 per year to be sent out to Quest or other civilian lab, as I'm in the only one in the DoD trained to read these. Add in the hundreds of inpatient and outpatients encounters I see every year, and the cost to replace me runs around $600,000 per year. Quite a bit more than your average FP tagged for a brigade surgeon role, and a foolish waste of money and personnel.
Roger that. Apples and oranges.
 
the problem with the argument of surgical skill atrophy is twofold-- they claim that using surgeons who are more seasoned will have an easier time "relearning" when they return, and they claim they will be giving "ample time to retrain" when the BDE surgeon thing is over.

FP is probable the only specialty that is within its realm seeing active duty patients. but it's not as apples/oranges as you state. not doing your specialty for 2 years is not doing your specialty for 2 years-- and to hear an orthopedist duke it out with a pathologist or radiologist is a fascinating sight to behold. you'd think there were separate medical schools for them or something, lol. being an n of 1 isn't helpful either-- see genetics. or electrophysiologist. it has been done and will likely continue to be done.

i completely sympathize-- and it's not just surgical procedures. cardiac caths, central lines, intubations, endoscopy, bronchoscopy-- many of the non "surgical" procedures that non surgeons perform are just as susceptible to skill atrophy as a hernia repair or appendectomy or any other classical surgery procedure. radiology and pathology can argue similarly-- that repetition and exposure maintaining skills are just as important as learning them.

i also understand the money angle. having a highly subspecialized physician do this makes absolutely no sense. in fact, so much less sense that i don't see why they don't analyze the amount of money spent for the lost docs (let's take your 600k a year figure, for instance) and divide that up as a "brigade surgeon bonus." throw 50k a year additional bonus at these positions and i wager they will not be forcing super specialized-ologists much longer. and the kicker is they still *save* money doing it.

i don't want to come across as defending this in any way. it is a gross talent allocation disaster and is going to kill the AMEDD. unfortunately the ones in power have taken the operation track and serve at the will of the line. spine removal i think is part of the process.

at any rate, discussion is good. and the word i have heard from those currently out is that if you work with your command you can often get at least some time in the clinic, or, or lab. which in the end may make the LTC thing actually work in your favor.

--your friendly neighborhood "if i don't make eye contact maybe they won't pick me" caveman
 
I'm with you on the cath/central line/intubation thing. That being said, it's a lot easier to relearn an IJ than it is a prostatectomy or an ossicular chain reconstruction. I feel confident about that because I've learned to do both. One took me about 2 days. One took me 5 years to start to feel comfortable. When I PCS, I come back to clinic feeling fairly confident after a month or so of not seeing patients. But I have to work my way back into the OR before I'm ready for microsurgery - and that's just a short period of time. Maybe that completely goes away for "experienced surgeons," (however you want to make that cutoff), but I would say that most of the Sr surgeons I've spoken with feel the same way that I do. Additionally, my understanding is that they're not targeting "experienced surgeons" (at least not by my definition), but rather junior O-4s (which is more or less right out of residency).

And anyway, I don't mean to insinuate that it only sucks for surgeons.

Also, those quotation marks are directed at OTSG, not at you.
 
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Why are they not tapping nurses to do this? If they're qualified enough to be the Surgeon General of the Army...
 
Also, those quotation marks are directed at OTSG, not at you.

no worries. we're all on the same side on this one, lol. the rank coming out of residency is another reason leadership thinks we are all lazy, when in fact because of training (residency or residency+fellowship) people graduate as MAJ. meaning they didn't do the CCC because they were in a training environment. but again, because everything is judged based on the line's model, this is unacceptable.

along this same line of thinking-- we were told repeatedly at the CCC that if we hadn't done so that we "really need to sit down and make a career map to plan things out." some LTC hu-ah type (you know these people from a mile away) who ran the show actually was "amazed" that so few of us had done this. because supposedly he sat down as a young 2LT and "planned his whole career" and followed it and "look where he is now." seriously? the fact they can parade these people in front of us just shows how disconnected they are from reality. as a physician we have probably some of the least predictable careers (well, except for those being forced out due to drawdowns-- not going to be us anytime soon.) our taskings seem arbitrary, come out of the blue, and we now even have a "broadening" block on our OERs to encourage being moved just for the sake of moving. a typical staff doctor can't count on being at the same duty station a year or even 6 months from now. the rules keep changing, and who's to say that a BDE SG tour will be enough? before it was utilization tours, then it was deployment, now it's BDE staff-- who knows wtf will be next.

Why are they not tapping nurses to do this? If they're qualified enough to be the Surgeon General of the Army...

see above. they refuse to consider nurses or PA's because they want (ie, think they deserve) "a doctor." i completely agree though-- if nurses are good enough for that, they should be good enough to go BDE. :cool: some of this blame may be with the medical corps, and given the recent developments i don't necessarily think a doctor in that position will look out for us any more than a nurse given the track required to get there.

i'd like to see a BDE surgeon bonus offered, and i'd like to see non-docs fill this role. those prev med people we deploy with i think would be excellent candidates, and are MSC to boot. throw the money at them and see what happens.

--your friendly neighborhood deploy me to curacao like the air force caveman
 
Yeah, DCS recently spoke with me at a one-on-one about my OER. He wanted to make sure that we had fleshed it out so that it looks good come review time. Gotta look out for the career, and what-not. I told him I actually have a five year plan. Step 1 is ETS. Step 2 is ETS. Step 3 is ETS.....I really don't care what they put on me OER other than " took care of patients." Attending CCC or ILE or the hospital commander's kid's dance recital means less than nothing to me. If I thought I had another promotion in my time, I'd do the courses, but I don't. Incidentally, there's a huge debockle in our hospital dealing with the possible loss of inpatient services. Our hospital commander has started handing out counseling statements for any SINGLE miss on any metric the hospital measures (from signing notes within 72 hours to when the nursing staff provided your last dose of post-op abx). The idea is that if our illustrious military careers were effected, maybe we'd fall in line (not that we were really all that out-of line, this is just the typical knee jerk, grasping-at-straws reaction that the Army loves). My response was "Counseling statements mean nothing to me. If you want me to do this because it is good for patient care, I am 100% on board." People become out of touch about 1 degree outside of patient care. It doesn't take much.

Nextly, that is an outstanding point about nurses being posted in brigade surgeon spots - or at least PAs or NPs. Frankly, if someone has a real medical issue, you're going to ship them upstream anyway. I'm sure the issue is that the spots are all billited for doctors, and until Jesus Christ himself comes down from heaven riding a bald eagle that $#!Ts thunderbolts and asks that they change the billet, it will continue to be billeted for doctors.

turkish said:
Why are they not tapping nurses to do this? If they're qualified enough to be the Surgeon General of the Army...

I'm not sure I completely agree that your second point is accurate, however. But who am I? Not JC riding an eagle.
 
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I read the regulations about this about 18 months ago. Strangely enough, pharmDs can be brigade surgeons, so there's an untapped resource.
 
The only power you have in the medical corps is the power to leave. I told my rater recently that he could write my OER in crayon for all I care - it obviously doesn't include important info like my RVU production, complication rates or even patient satisfaction scores (things that actually MATTER as a physician). If you can get out I HIGHLY encourage you to do so. Recruit against HPSP, USUHS, etc - tell prospective med students the truth. It is the only way that the dysfunctional organization can be brought down
 
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This is the flip side of the GMO argument. The Navy system ensures that the future specialists take a turn in an operational job before residency, lessening the burden on the primary care doctors. The GMO transition will inevitably hit IM with these jobs and they can't handle the load without dumping on the IM subs (we are a super easy target given that we can't wash off the IM stench).
 
This is the flip side of the GMO argument. The Navy system ensures that the future specialists take a turn in an operational job before residency, lessening the burden on the primary care doctors. The GMO transition will inevitably hit IM with these jobs and they can't handle the load without dumping on the IM subs (we are a super easy target given that we can't wash off the IM stench).

Very few Army GMOs serve as brigade surgeons. It happens, but they're mostly battalion surgeons or the aviation/cavalry unit flight surgeon equivalent. I don't know what the Navy equivalent for these positions is, if they even exist, but this problem doesn't change too much with the Navy's GMO system.

A brigade surgeon is supposed to be a field-grade staff position, which has been largely filled to date with company-grade physicians. Most of them are intermediate to senior level captains (think FP right out of training) or - as I mentioned - the occasional very junior GMO. FORSCOM eventually got tired of this and wanted MEDCOM to fill these spots with the 'appropriate' people. There aren't enough primary care physicians to do this.

Also, if you're a major or LTC in Army family medicine, there's a good chance you've already had this job, and doing it twice is considered a career killer because it doesn't show 'progression'. Yet another reason why the GMO system doesn't fix this, because in the Army's messed up world, it actually makes sense to be a brigade surgeon after being a battalion surgeon. It shows advancement in the same manner that a platoon leader becomes a company commander, so having been a GMO doesn't necessarily protect you (although consultants understandably prefer to choose physicians without a prior operational assignment, but that's occurring at a medical level that Big Army doesn't understand).

So MEDCOM started looking around for warm bodies, and now we've got pediatric cardiologists tracking flu shot metrics.
 
The senior operational jobs exist in the Navy but its a much flatter structure with far fewer of these jobs supervising large numbers of GMOs. Which means the GMOs aren't supervised and can (mal)practice as they see fit but also that no one gets a senior operational job without wanting it as a route to O6 (at least thats how it was a few years ago).
 
The senior operational jobs exist in the Navy but its a much flatter structure with far fewer of these jobs supervising large numbers of GMOs. Which means the GMOs aren't supervised and can (mal)practice as they see fit but also that no one gets a senior operational job without wanting it as a route to O6 (at least thats how it was a few years ago).

Is there anyone in the Navy that can comment on how well our senior operational command structure works? From this comment it sounds like the main problem with the Army brigade surgeon post is not who fills it but rather that it exists at all.
 
Is there anyone in the Navy that can comment on how well our senior operational command structure works? From this comment it sounds like the main problem with the Army brigade surgeon post is not who fills it but rather that it exists at all.
I feel the same way about Army medicine sometimes.
 
Is there anyone in the Navy that can comment on how well our senior operational command structure works? From this comment it sounds like the main problem with the Army brigade surgeon post is not who fills it but rather that it exists at all.

the position needs to exist-- medical readiness and medical planning is a large piece of the operational puzzle. this position will never go away, and it shouldn't. as much as we complain now, imagine if there was no one at the table with a medical background-- it would be profoundly worse.

the issue isn't the position the issue is who fills it best. a physician (at least in the traditional sense) is overkill and a waste of resources. except for someone residency trained in prev med or a similar field, it creates a situation where the skill set of the doc doesn't match well. it's like taking an armor officer and sending him to artillery. yes, both shoot big guns and make big booms, and the armor guy could learn it, but you will never hear this happening on the line side of the house. furthermore, it *can't* be that difficult of a job if a short course (if people if were able to go to it at all) and a little OJT for a freshly minted residency graduate CPT who likely has never seen anything close to this job since joining the army can attest. ie-- the fact someone totally ignorant of the job can do it for 2 years across the entire army and the army not implode should be an indicator it's not some super special skill or knowledge set. back when GPs were the most common medical specialty, this made sense-- but not now when everyone is specializing or sub specializing in the non-dominant pinky and haven't done this type of thing since medschool.

i think the best course of action would be to have PA's track to this as a career progression. they're cheaper, we (as docs) train the ones going through IPAP and they theoretically should have a familiarity with the system. if not, put it in the damn course that we run, lol. this should be sufficient for 90+% or more of what they do. the things that require medical knowledge can be directed to the division surgeon, which are less in number and where all of our people who get boners for operational stuff work or to the local MTF "brigade medical advisor" (or whatever the hell you'd call it). option 2 is what I detailed above-- giving an additional "brigade surgeon bonus" to the tune of 50k or something to get people to volunteer-- or at least numb the pain a little. in the end they'd still save money by not using highly specialized docs for this. they threw money at HPSP, try it with this, lol.

--your friendly neighborhood throwing the PA's under the bus caveman
 
I don't even like reading about this, as it is frightening. This happened to us at the Dark Tower, as one of our ophthalmologic specialists got tasked with one of these slots. He was definitely an n of 1. It has also happened to at least 1 radiologist right out of residency (so no time to get experience at all, just right to Brigade Surgeon land). If your specialty is 'over strength' be very, very afraid, but I don't think anyone is safe. I would guess at some point, they will just go from specialty to specialty asking for a warm body.
 
Is there anyone in the Navy that can comment on how well our senior operational command structure works? From this comment it sounds like the main problem with the Army brigade surgeon post is not who fills it but rather that it exists at all.

There seem to be a lot fewer of those positions in the Navy in the first place, and enough people who want to do them. Every so often my specialty leader will send out an email advertising these operational leadership positions. Always followed by words to the effect of, please keep me advised if you intend to pursue. I'm aware of nobody in my specialty who has been forced into one of those billets. I can think of 4 off the top of my head who asked for those jobs.

The specialists I've seen in SMO or similar positions have all been people who asked to be there. Mostly O5s looking for a reason to get selected to O6.
 
What happens after these mid-career, unwanted brigade surgeon taskings?

If you're primary care/generalist I'd imagine it's annoying, but not all that disruptive. If you're more specialized but able to moonlight, I'd imagine you do that, maintain your skills, and bide your time. But if you're not able to moonlight for whatever reason and are in a procedural specialty, your skills almost certainly will atrophy. What then? Does this essentially end your clinical career? Do you spend months/years after the tour retraining as a sort of "super-resident" to prepare for the next clinical tasking?
 
What happens after these mid-career, unwanted brigade surgeon taskings?

If you're primary care/generalist I'd imagine it's annoying, but not all that disruptive. If you're more specialized but able to moonlight, I'd imagine you do that, maintain your skills, and bide your time. But if you're not able to moonlight for whatever reason and are in a procedural specialty, your skills almost certainly will atrophy. What then? Does this essentially end your clinical career? Do you spend months/years after the tour retraining as a sort of "super-resident" to prepare for the next clinical tasking?

I'm not in a procedural specialty, but this was how it was sold to us - that we would be able to "rehabilitate" our skills. Of course, I have a well-developed trust issue when it comes to the Army, so I'm highly leary of anything I'm told will happen, much less something years into the future.
 
What happens after these mid-career, unwanted brigade surgeon taskings?

If you're primary care/generalist I'd imagine it's annoying, but not all that disruptive. If you're more specialized but able to moonlight, I'd imagine you do that, maintain your skills, and bide your time. But if you're not able to moonlight for whatever reason and are in a procedural specialty, your skills almost certainly will atrophy. What then? Does this essentially end your clinical career? Do you spend months/years after the tour retraining as a sort of "super-resident" to prepare for the next clinical tasking?
In terms of sub specialists, The short answer is: they don't know for sure. They haven't been doing it long enough to know, the people making the decisions aren't aware of what a procedural medical practice is like, and frankly they don't actually care, so no one knows what happens. They have stated that they will "retrain" you.

The truth is, the Army doesn't give a crap. Every decision is an extremely short-sighted one. The only consideration is meeting their nearest goal, and if they have a mess to clean up later so be it. That is reflected in the hospital closings/consolidations every day.

They don't care that you spent two decades to get to this point. They don't care that not a single recruiter is even mildly aware of the possibility of a forced operational spot (and therefore neither is anyone signing on the line). They don't care that they've spent millions of dollars training physicians just to put them in a job better suited for a PA. They don't care that they'll never get that investment back. They don't care that their re-sign rates are never going to get any better.

Talk to someone at OTSG personally, and of course they'll tell you that they have considered these things. Some of them actually do care on a personal level, but in the board room you're just a number - filler - and they'll stick you wherever the ship is leaking.

They'll tell you that you'll be rehabilitated, but the truth is that will happen only if it's not easier to just train someone else to do your job, while leaving you to deal with your own situation. Some of the people on these billets are nearing their ETS, meaning that the only way the Army could retrain them if they actually cared to do so is if the physician signed on for more years.

If the Army cared about skill atrophy, they wouldn't be putting sub specialists in the middle of nowhere to rot and then make them take leave to keep their skills up to par.
 
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Couldn't have said it better. The Army doesn't care. Kids, read it, learn it, realize it. Consider if you want to invest 11-15+ year of your life preparing for a career, and then working for an organization that doesn't care!!!
 
Someone once asked me what I'd do if the Navy put me in a GMO billet again, specifically the same one I held with the Marine infantry prior to residency. It's really not a possibility; the Navy doesn't do that. But as a thought experiment it was hard to answer. I try to be a good officer and be part of the big Navy picture, but I'm a doctor first. I think I'd refuse to see sick call. I genuinely don't feel competent to do ortho and psych and derm and the rest of the USMC adolescent medicine, it's been so long. I haven't done a pelvic exam in about 12 years. I wouldn't risk my patients' outcomes and my license fumbling through shoulder exams. Maybe they'd try to remediate me somehow? I wonder at what point my uselessness to them would reach a breaking point and they'd send me back to a hospital (with a bad fitrep no doubt).


As another thought experiment, I wonder what would happen if a subspecialist who was put in one of those Army brigade surgeon jobs just did it really poorly. I don't mean insubordinate or subversive sabotage behavior - just a touch of passive aggressive "I really am not trained or qualified to do this, I'm not sure how" while dropping ball after ball, and forcing actual career admin people to cover the slack. What would the Army do?
 
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I don't mean insubordinate or subversive sabotage behavior - just a touch of passive aggressive "I really am not trained or qualified to do this, I'm not sure how" while dropping ball after ball, and forcing actual career admin people to cover the slack. What would the Army do?

I'd be interested, too
 
As another thought experiment, I wonder what would happen if a subspecialist who was put in one of those Army brigade surgeon jobs just did it really poorly. I don't mean insubordinate or subversive sabotage behavior - just a touch of passive aggressive "I really am not trained or qualified to do this, I'm not sure how" while dropping ball after ball, and forcing actual career admin people to cover the slack. What would the Army do?

I've thought the same thought. I'm with you in that I would have to explain to my command that outside of my specific field, I cannot ethically practice. They could keep me on as dead weight, or choose not to do so. If they chose to keep me on, it once again begs the question: why not a PA? Surely a PA could do most of what I could, more when it comes to a pelvic exam.
 
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I kn
I've thought the same thought. I'm with you in that I would have to explain to my command that outside of my specific field, I cannot ethically practice. They could keep me on as dead weight, or choose not to do so. If they chose to keep me on, it once again begs the question: why not a PA? Surely a PA could do most of what I could, more when it comes to a pelvic exam.

I know at this point the Navy is doing just that on the Marine side. There is a plan to gross up the number of PAs filling the Battalion Surgeon slot and lower at this point instead of using a GMO or BC Doc billet. There is a plan to role that out over the next 3-4 years as a test to consider other operational billets.
 
I kn


I know at this point the Navy is doing just that on the Marine side. There is a plan to gross up the number of PAs filling the Battalion Surgeon slot and lower at this point instead of using a GMO or BC Doc billet. There is a plan to role that out over the next 3-4 years as a test to consider other operational billets.

I really don't understand why this is a PA thing but not an NP thing.
 
I really don't understand why this is a PA thing but not an NP thing.

Because the Navy predominately only commissions Pysch, Peds, Midwife, and CRNAs in the advance practice role. The FNPs aren't "trained" for Pysch or Emergent care, so that leaves the PAs as the only generalist option.
 
PETA would complain. Us, no one gives a rat's you know what. People in charge of our protection (consultants) are in too deep, and already forgot what it takes to be a physician.
The chimp in the track suit might do a better job than a lot of the NPs I deal with here. I strongly think we should reconsider this option.
 
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As another thought experiment, I wonder what would happen if a subspecialist who was put in one of those Army brigade surgeon jobs just did it really poorly. I don't mean insubordinate or subversive sabotage behavior - just a touch of passive aggressive "I really am not trained or qualified to do this, I'm not sure how" while dropping ball after ball, and forcing actual career admin people to cover the slack. What would the Army do?

first, they would send you to the brigade surgeon's course. then if you kept dropping the ball it would go something like this: they would counsel you, retrain you, then if you continue screwing up take your bonus pays and have HRC find a worse place to send you, haha

I've thought the same thought. I'm with you in that I would have to explain to my command that outside of my specific field, I cannot ethically practice. They could keep me on as dead weight, or choose not to do so. If they chose to keep me on, it once again begs the question: why not a PA? Surely a PA could do most of what I could, more when it comes to a pelvic exam.

brigade surgeons don't really do sick call from what i can tell. it's a lot of administrative things. your argument would be difficult-- "this is so simple a PA could do it" while at the same time saying "this is too difficult for me to do" doesn't jive. argument A would mean you can't do something simple, argument B would mean they need even smarter people. catch-22 :-/

a work slow down or civil disobedience will only make your life more painful. plus, there's a decent chance you may actually like some of the people you work for/with. there's a lot of line douchbags, but there are also a lot of fairly charismatic good peeps.

--your friendly neighborhood i do not understand this "powerpoint" you speak of caveman
 
I believe there is tremendous value in being a brigade surgeon. As an Army physician, it's an excellent opportunity to develop as an officer and it's the best way to get an appreciation of the physical and emotional stress our Soldiers and officers face. In regards to subspecialists being tapped for the job, I have mixed feelings on it. The guy that replaced me was one of two GI docs at our hospital - while I think it's important for Army docs to be fully rounded officers, it can't be cost effective to send subspecialists to BDE surgeon positions. In any event, as the Army contracts, this issue may resolve itself.

Tremendous value for who, exactly? Me, my medical career and my 4 year obligation? How would gaining appreciation help me in my subspecialist career? If brigade surgery is supposed to be an OPD tool, I got a really large list of 0-4 to 0-5 and above dead weight MEDCEN-dwelling career people that they should pick over me as a specialist.
 
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Tremendous value for who, exactly? Me, my medical career and my 4 year obligation? How would gaining appreciation help me in my subspecialist career?

well . . . on your fellowship application if you go military you'd basically be a shoe-in. other than that, i feel it's hard to argue "value" from a purely medical standpoint. to me it's only valuable in that it lets you see behind the curtain and see why the AMEDD exists in the eyes of the line.

--your friendly neighborhood has seen oz caveman
 
well . . . on your fellowship application if you go military you'd basically be a shoe-in. other than that, i feel it's hard to argue "value" from a purely medical standpoint. to me it's only valuable in that it lets you see behind the curtain and see why the AMEDD exists in the eyes of the line.

--your friendly neighborhood has seen oz caveman

Fair enough, but honestly, I don't care what anyone thinks about me in an army line sense. I want to be the best medical specialist possible, so when you are at risk of losing the ability to think (or move, or breathe) forever, I use my skills to bring you back. Short-timer attitude? Maybe, but at work or when in uniform, I keep it to myself.
 
first, they would send you to the brigade surgeon's course. then if you kept dropping the ball it would go something like this: they would counsel you, retrain you, then if you continue screwing up take your bonus pays and have HRC find a worse place to send you, haha



brigade surgeons don't really do sick call from what i can tell. it's a lot of administrative things. your argument would be difficult-- "this is so simple a PA could do it" while at the same time saying "this is too difficult for me to do" doesn't jive. argument A would mean you can't do something simple, argument B would mean they need even smarter people. catch-22 :-/

a work slow down or civil disobedience will only make your life more painful. plus, there's a decent chance you may actually like some of the people you work for/with. there's a lot of line douchbags, but there are also a lot of fairly charismatic good peeps.

--your friendly neighborhood i do not understand this "powerpoint" you speak of caveman

In terms of administrative nonsense, I don't think that I can't do it. I just think it's a waste of time and training, whereas it wouldn't be for a PA. It's an argument of wasted resources rather than one of ability.

The Reality is that the fact we're even discussing this means that any argument presented is a difficult argument, because the people making the decisions have no idea what they're doing - trading a decade of training for another paper-pusher. It's a career killer for any surgeon.
 
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In terms of administrative nonsense, I don't think that I can't do it. I just think it's a waste of time and training, whereas it wouldn't be for a PA. It's an argument of wasted resources rather than one of ability.

The Reality is that the fact we're even discussing this means that any argument presented is a difficult argument, because the people making the decisions have no idea what they're doing - trading a decade of training for another paper-pusher. It's a career killer for any surgeon.

i agree. it's just that this is where the "lawful order" and military side of the house has you by the short and curlies. it's more painful to do a poor job and fight it than to just do it. like an ER consult, lol.

--your friendly neighborhood i lost my cac again and can't log onto any computers . . . caveman
 
Fair enough, but honestly, I don't care what anyone thinks about me in an army line sense. I want to be the best medical specialist possible, so when you are at risk of losing the ability to think (or move, or breathe) forever, I use my skills to bring you back. Short-timer attitude? Maybe, but at work or when in uniform, I keep it to myself.

that's root cause of the problem. "we" (as in AMEDD) should care what the line thinks, because our bosses ultimately answer to them, and the line run the show. deep down in the primordial ooze of military medicine, they created us. distasteful and hard to see how a neonatal intensivist or what have you fit into this vision but the line gets what they want. refusing won't work, so the best we can hope for is to learn what makes the trigger pullers tick and see if we can convince them PA's would suffice.

--your friendly neighborhood these aren't the docs you're looking for caveman
 
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well . . . on your fellowship application if you go military you'd basically be a shoe-in. other than that, i feel it's hard to argue "value" from a purely medical standpoint. to me it's only valuable in that it lets you see behind the curtain and see why the AMEDD exists in the eyes of the line.

--your friendly neighborhood has seen oz caveman
I'm not entirely sure that "haven't operated in two years" is going to buff up a fellowship application.
 
i agree. it's just that this is where the "lawful order" and military side of the house has you by the short and curlies. it's more painful to do a poor job and fight it than to just do it. like an ER consult, lol.

--your friendly neighborhood i lost my cac again and can't log onto any computers . . . caveman

I hear what you're saying, and if don't disagree in principal. I just feel like having my medical career destroyed because someone needs a file clerk is going to kind of gate-control any other pain associated with dragging ass.
 
brigade surgeons don't really do sick call from what i can tell. it's a lot of administrative things. your argument would be difficult-- "this is so simple a PA could do it" while at the same time saying "this is too difficult for me to do" doesn't jive. argument A would mean you can't do something simple, argument B would mean they need even smarter people. catch-22 :-/

BDE surgeons aren't immune from sick call. Like pediatric subspecialists, my specialty has been hit hard by this, so I've been in touch with a number of recently christened, reluctant brigade surgeons. Like so many other things about being a brigade surgeon, your breadth of practice is almost exclusively up to the brigade commander. I agree that it is largely an administrative job, but that's of little comfort if your CO mandates you see sick call, as has happened to a number of my colleagues. The disconnect in the system is so blatant that the local MTF - who is responsible for credentialing all of the line unit PAs and MDs - refused to grant privileges to see sick call based on lack of qualifications and experience, in at least once instance. This person had to go through a period of remediation just to see sick call.

Also, I'm not following your logic about the PA thing. It seems like it's only a catch-22 if you consider a PA and any physician to be at two points on a linear training scale that I'll call "general medicine". Obviously, the point of specialization and subspecialization is that we diverge from that line, and it makes sense to me that it may be difficult or even dangerous for us to attempt to return to "general medicine". Even if we can, I see nothing inconsistent in demonstrating to a commander that the point on the line to which we might return is substantially down the training scale than even a PA.
 
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