Bringing treats at the end of a rotation...?

[smq123]

QFT. If your very first reaction when a fellow student brings in treats is "stupid kiss@ss trying to make me look bad" and NOT "sweet...free cupcakes!" you need to reevaluate who's the real gunner.

Agreed!

Not if they want to be taken seriously as a professional. But have fun being "the brownie girl" if you want.

One of the trauma surgeons brought in a bag of cookies and peanuts for the team for SICU rounds. But you're right! As soon as he brought in food, I immediately pegged that trauma attending as an unprofessional slub that I should NEVER take seriously.



People spend a lot of their time in the hospital. A lot of the food in the hospital (and a lot of the food that they eat at home) is not very good. Sometimes a homemade treat that IS tasty is welcomed.

I think you're reading waaayyy too much into it.

And what makes you think that someone who brings in food CAN'T be a good student?

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[Erina]

My classmates were always bringing food for our small group sessions during the first 2 years and no one thought they were trying to suck up to our facilitators. The facilitators even brought food for us every now and then.

JeffLebowski, if you don't think it's ok then fine. Make sure you voice your opinion about what is professional every chance you get--wouldn't want your future coworkers to make any mistakes.

And by the way, I'm the only student doing the rotation that I start on Monday. So I don't have to worry about making my classmates look bad. Happy?

 

[tulane06]

Hmmmm... basketball is a team sport. Tell you what... you take the team without anyone who likes to compete. I will take the team with the "gunners" and kick your ### up and down the court all day long. Good day sir.

You put a bunch of people who always try to "beat the guy next to them" on a team, and you get a team of ball hogs. How is that team going to win?

 

[JeffLebowski]

Agreed!



One of the trauma surgeons brought in a bag of cookies and peanuts for the team for SICU rounds. But you're right! As soon as he brought in food, I immediately pegged that trauma attending as an unprofessional slub that I should NEVER take seriously.



People spend a lot of their time in the hospital. A lot of the food in the hospital (and a lot of the food that they eat at home) is not very good. Sometimes a homemade treat that IS tasty is welcomed.

I think you're reading waaayyy too much into it.

And what makes you think that someone who brings in food CAN'T be a good student?

There's a HUGE difference between an attending bringing in food and a student baking cupcakes for everyone. Sorry, but it's true.

Well, I'm obviously overemphasizing the importance of this topic because this is an anonymous forum and I'm venting frustration, but I think my general points are legitimate.

My classmates were always bringing food for our small group sessions during the first 2 years and no one thought they were trying to suck up to our facilitators. The facilitators even brought food for us every now and then.

JeffLebowski, if you don't think it's ok then fine. Make sure you voice your opinion about what is professional every chance you get--wouldn't want your future coworkers to make any mistakes.

And by the way, I'm the only student doing the rotation that I start on Monday. So I don't have to worry about making my classmates look bad. Happy?

It obviously depends on the setting, but I'm glad you brought that up. If it's just students + a facilitator, then sure, that's probably fine. If it's the right setting, it can be harmless. And as mentioned above, it's a whole 'nother bag of worms when you're not the one being evaluated and you bring in food. Attending? Of course. Student in a group of students? Of course. An environment where everyone's on the same page - everyone wants to bring food and everyone understands there's no ulterior motive? Fine. But it's a bad idea to play with the line of appropriate/inappropriate.

There's no need to be hostile, by the way. Considering you're an M2, you can take whoever's advice you want about how to approach M3 year, but it's much different than preclinical years.

 

[smq123]

It obviously depends on the setting, but I'm glad you brought that up. If it's just students + a facilitator, then sure, that's probably fine. Sure, if it's the right setting, it can be harmless and fine. And as mentioned above, it's a whole 'nother bag of worms when you're not the one being evaluated and you bring in food. Attending? Of course. Student in a group of students? Of course. An environment where everyone's on the same page - everyone wants to bring food and everyone understands there's no ulterior motive? Fine. But it's a bad idea to play with the line of appropriate/inappropriate.

Do you go to an extremely cut-throat school, or something? Were you constantly surrounded by blood-thirsty students that would make sharks seem tame by comparison? There's a frightening tone to some of your posts that borders on paranoia....

I brought cookies in to my surgery team at the end of the rotation. I had been told over and over again by both the chief and the intern that I was a great student, that I should be a surgeon, that I'd be a great resident in a couple of years, etc. - I had absolutely NOTHING to gain by bringing in cookies. But I brought in cookies because the chief hadn't had a day off in the 3 months that he had been on that service, he had lost a good 10 pounds, and the intern was unable to go home and spend Christmas with her family (the first Christmas with her family that she'd EVER missed). I felt sorry for both of them so I brought in cookies at the end of the rotation.

Is THAT unprofessional?

I brought in cookies for the end of my IM rotation. It wasn't a big deal, and made no difference to my grade whatsoever! (The reason why I brought in cookies was because the IM resident was friends with one of the surgery resident, and had heard that I make good cookies.) I mentioned to the other students on my rotation that I was going to be bringing in cookies and if anyone had any serious nut allergies then they should speak up now. The response from the other students was of overwhelming enthusiasm - heck, one of the guys even requested a certain type of cookie! They knew that there was NO ulterior motive there, and no one seemed to resent the cookies at all. I'm glad that I wasn't teamed up with seriously paranoid people, because that would have been a serious downer....

There's no need to be hostile, by the way. Considering you're an M2, you can take whoever's advice you want about how to approach M3 year, but it's a different setting than preclinical years.

Some of your comments have been quite hostile, too.

And while she may be an M2, many residents and even ATTENDINGS have basically posted things that agree with her posts.

 

[Teee]

this thread is pretty unprofessional. lots of pointing fingers and cookie bakers. sheesh, if you want to bake the cookie, bake the darn thing. i think no matter what the environment is, as long as subjective grading is involved, it should not be encouraged. but i wont be the gunner that refused to eat the cookie when it was passed around too....

now can we stop arguing

 

[JeffLebowski]

Do you go to an extremely cut-throat school, or something? Were you constantly surrounded by blood-thirsty students that would make sharks seem tame by comparison? There's a frightening tone to some of your posts that borders on paranoia....

I brought cookies in to my surgery team at the end of the rotation. I had been told over and over again by both the chief and the intern that I was a great student, that I should be a surgeon, that I'd be a great resident in a couple of years, etc. - I had absolutely NOTHING to gain by bringing in cookies. But I brought in cookies because the chief hadn't had a day off in the 3 months that he had been on that service, he had lost a good 10 pounds, and the intern was unable to go home and spend Christmas with her family (the first Christmas with her family that she'd EVER missed). I felt sorry for both of them so I brought in cookies at the end of the rotation.

Is THAT unprofessional?

I brought in cookies for the end of my IM rotation. It wasn't a big deal, and made no difference to my grade whatsoever! (The reason why I brought in cookies was because the IM resident was friends with one of the surgery resident, and had heard that I make good cookies.) I mentioned to the other students on my rotation that I was going to be bringing in cookies and if anyone had any serious nut allergies then they should speak up now. The response from the other students was of overwhelming enthusiasm - heck, one of the guys even requested a certain type of cookie! They knew that there was NO ulterior motive there, and no one seemed to resent the cookies at all. I'm glad that I wasn't teamed up with seriously paranoid people, because that would have been a serious downer....



Some of your comments have been quite hostile, too.

And while she may be an M2, many residents and even ATTENDINGS have basically posted things that agree with her posts.

Really no need to fly off the handle.

Fine, whatever. I just hope people take some of these things mentioned here into consideration, I'm sure a lot of people genuinely hadn't thought about it.

 

[smq123]

this thread is pretty unprofessional. lots of pointing fingers and cookie bakers. sheesh, if you want to bake the cookie, bake the darn thing. i think no matter what the environment is, as long as subjective grading is involved, it should not be encouraged. but i wont be the gunner that refused to eat the cookie when it was passed around too....

now can we stop arguing

I think what I've come to realize is that, yes, while subjective grading IS always something to be a little apprehensive of, the vast majority of residents and attendings are not ogres who are going to parse apart your behavior and read deeply into everything you do.

Really no need to fly off the handle.

"Fly off the handle"?

I apologize if I went overboard, but you sounded so judgemental, hostile, and rigid in many of your posts that it got me a little heated up.

 

[Teee]

uhm, when you decide to bake something for people that would be grading you, its either because
a) you want them to like you
b) you want them to give you good grades
c) you appreciate them what they did for you

if you are just being appreciative, there are more professional ways of showing it than baking cookies, there's a reason why those drug lunches and free pens where scrapped. if it is for the other 2 reasons, like i said, carry on.

oh, i think i'm done with this conversation too. when someone in my small group borught cookies, we all laughed and joked that she was trying to get good grades. she was probably just being nice, but that thought is always going to be on the minds of those grading you whether it was your intention or not.

 

[JeffLebowski]

I think what I've come to realize is that, yes, while subjective grading IS always something to be a little apprehensive of, the vast majority of residents and attendings are not ogres who are going to parse apart your behavior and read deeply into everything you do.



"Fly off the handle"?

I apologize if I went overboard, but you sounded so judgemental, hostile, and rigid in many of your posts that it got me a little heated up.

Great, whatever. I'm sure I could think of 3 choice adjectives to describe your posts as well, but frankly I just don't care and you're welcome to have the last word.

 

[smq123]

when someone in my small group borught cookies, we all laughed and joked that she was trying to get good grades. she was probably just being nice, but that thought is always going to be on the minds of those grading you whether it was your intention or not.

If this is the kind of thinking that your classmates have of someone who brought cookies in to a SMALL GROUP, then that's going to make for a fun atmosphere during MS3 and MS4.

And if you honestly think that your residents and attendings will be so feeble-minded that they think that one batch of cookies is going to erase the memory of your incompetence during the previous 4-6 weeks...then I feel sorry for your residents and attendings!

They're not idiots. If you're a bad student, then they're going to remember that. If you're a great student, they're going to remember that.

And I guess the reason that I keep harping on this is because I do NOT want med students to read these threads and walk away with a fear and suspicion of their residents - like I did, after reading some threads on SDN. Contrary to what is frequently posted, residents and attendings are often too overworked to intensely scrutinize everything that you do.

uhm, when you decide to bake something for people that would be grading you, its either because
a) you want them to like you
b) you want them to give you good grades
c) you appreciate them what they did for you

So, what if you bake something for people that will be grading you when you already KNOW that they like you and that they're going to give you a fantastic grade?

And there is nothing wrong with bringing in a treat for reason (c). I would argue that it actually helps the students who come after you, to be honest. I've found that residents that feel appreciated by students will continue to put a serious effort into teaching. It's positive feedback - they teach well, students appreciate them, they feel good about that, and continue to put an effort into teaching the next batch of students.

 

[45408]

Way too much thought going into all of this. I brought everybody cake on my birthday, just because I like birthdays. I can't imagine that it will have any bearing at all on my grade.

 

[Teee]

If this is the kind of thinking that your classmates have of someone who brought cookies in to a SMALL GROUP, then that's going to make for a fun atmosphere during MS3 and MS4.

it is!!! i would prefer classmates who didnt suck up or who sucked up fairly by just doing what was expected of them. how noble...how professional

 

[Pinkertinkle]

I'm wondering how many people know they're going to get "fantastic grades" cause I'm never really sure anymore and sometimes when I think i will I don't and when i think I don't I do.

 

[smq123]

it is!!! i would prefer classmates who didnt suck up or who sucked up fairly by just doing what was expected of them. how noble...how professional

Sure, learning how to become a doctor is serious business and all that....

But when you're going to be spending 17 hour days with these people, dodging the surprisingly strong demented guy who tries to swat at your heads because you're trying to do an ABG on him...formality and all that kind of goes out the window.

<shrug> Maybe I just had a very good med school experience, where it's normal to become good friends with your residents.

And I guess my point is that you can be confident that your behavior as a student is strong enough to stand on its own and therefore not have to worry that people are scrutinizing your kind gestures for ulterior motives. I was a good student in M3, and was told so by the residents. I therefore didn't worry that people were going to misinterpret my actions, because they knew I had very little to gain.

I'm wondering how many people know they're going to get "fantastic grades" cause I'm never really sure anymore and sometimes when I think i will I don't and when i think I don't I do.

We have to have mid-rotation feedback in our rotations; in many cases it was pretty obvious to me what I was going to get. I don't recall ever being surprised during MS3, when it came to grades.

 

[brenster99]

I can tell who is going to be bitter old (wo)men and who will be nice and help med students in the future....
haha
why do everyone's motives have to be questioned?
some people are nice
some like to bake

big deal

 

[Teee]

Sure, learning how to become a doctor is serious business and all that.... .

no its not, we only had to take and pass all those exams, go through all of those interviews, go through all those course, all those so called professional exams, wear those white coats and act like the professionals we were being trained to be, no i can see how its not serious business, especially when lives are involved, what was i possibly thinking?

But when you're going to be spending 17 hour days with these people, dodging the surprisingly strong demented guy who tries to swat at your heads because you're trying to do an ABG on him...formality and all that kind of goes out the window.

<shrug> Maybe I just had a very good med school experience, where it's normal to become good friends with your residents.

And I guess my point is that you can be confident that your behavior as a student is strong enough to stand on its own and therefore not have to worry that people are scrutinizing your kind gestures for ulterior motives. I was a good student in M3, and was told so by the residents. I therefore didn't worry that people were going to misinterpret my actions, because they knew I had very little to gain.

aite then. we agree to disagree. you be nice, i'll be professional.

I can tell who is going to be bitter old (wo)men and who will be nice and help med students in the future....

waaaaaaaaaaaaaaay to make generalizations... if we dont bake cookies, we are bitter. okay.

 

[brenster99]

waaaaaaaaaaaaaaay to make generalizations... if we dont bake cookies, we are bitter. okay.

I didnt mean to imply THAT i meant to imply that if you cant just accept someones gesture as genuine appreciation or being nice, or that they just LIKE to bake, that will probably carry over into your professional career also. I hold doors open for people (who i dont know) when i enter buildings, so when i am in rotations, if i hold a door open for an attending does that make me a kiss *****?

 

[Teee]

I didnt mean to imply THAT i meant to imply that if you cant just accept someones gesture as genuine appreciation or being nice, or that they just LIKE to bake, that will probably carry over into your professional career also. I hold doors open for people (who i dont know) when i enter buildings, so when i am in rotations, if i hold a door open for an attending does that make me a kiss *****?

it depends, are they grading you? just kidding. you are right though. people can be nice without ulterior motives. the setting is different if they are your co-workers that you work with everyday and you like to bake and just want to bring stuff, they dont owe you anything, you aren't bribing them for anything.

There's nothing wrong with doing that on rotations too but there is no question that because of the issue of subjective grading, one's motives could be questioned. that's all.

 

[brenster99]

it depends, are they grading you? just kidding. you are right though. people can be nice without ulterior motives. the setting is different if they are your co-workers that you work with everyday and you like to bake and just want to bring stuff, they dont owe you anything, you aren't bribing them for anything.

There's nothing wrong with doing that on rotations too but there is no question that because of the issue of subjective grading, one's motives could be questioned. that's all.

and for the record, i will NEVER bring in baked goods, but i would have no reason to question someone who would.... I would say thanks with a smile, and get some calories.

 

[smq123]

no its not, we only had to take and pass all those exams, go through all of those interviews, go through all those course, all those so called professional exams, wear those white coats and act like the professionals we were being trained to be, no i can see how its not serious business, especially when lives are involved, what was i possibly thinking?

I wasn't being sarcastic.

Of course medicine is serious. I've helped deliver babies in horrific conditions. I've (unfortunately) seen patients start hemorrhaging and scream in extreme pain in front of their children (which is why I really don't think that you should bring small kids into the delivery room with you!). I've seen small children on ventilators, in comas. I've had a number of patients who, sadly, didn't make it. I've had to tell people that they or their loved ones were going to die in a number of months. And this was just in med school!

But bringing in cookies is unprofessional? That's the strangest thing I've heard.

You CAN bring in treats without having it be an attempt to kiss up. And you can bring in food AND be professional.

aite then. we agree to disagree. you be nice, i'll be professional.

waaaaaaaaaaaaaaay to make generalizations... if we bake cookies, we are unprofessional. okay.

I guess that's the good thing about being a post-Match MS4. No one questions your motives if you decide to bring in something for the nurses.

 

[Teee]

and for the record, i will NEVER bring in baked goods, but i would have no reason to question someone who would.... I would say thanks with a smile, and get some calories.

me too

 

[surrender903]

words

You re avatar reminds me of lingerie everytime i see it.

 

[ThinkTooMuch]

people do it to suck up, plain and simple.

never had a real job have you?

 

[fab4fan]

It's not a matter of "overthinking" everything. I don't think it influences my grade. And if it did I'm stubborn enough to not bring treats just to spite them or make a point. I'm just surprised how many people do this when I never have even thought about it. Seems kind of silly. It's clinic, not a social gathering. I sure have had a swell time here, have a cookie pal.

I'm sure some are sincere and others are sucking up. My point was just that it's lame that the nurses bring this to your attention and tell you that if you want an A you should bring in treats like most of the other students haha wink wink just kidding....kind of. Ultimately not a big deal though.

If the nurses are bringing it up to you, it's totally inappropriate. If someone mentions it to you, you could always take a moment, cooly look the nurse up and down, then say "What's your BMI up to these days?"

This could make you some enemies, but it would surely send a message. Personally, I hate that idea that people feel they owe the nursing staff something like cookies or treats. We're not pets.

 

[lilnoelle]

We (my classmates on the same rotation) would always discuss this kind of thing before it was done. So, instead of having one person bring in cookies, it would be a group affair. (one person brought in treat, other brought in beverage, and third brought in plates, cups, plastic silverware)
I don't think bringing in treats in unprofessional, but I also appreciate that my classmates might want to be involved in such an endeavor.

As far as residents/attendings expecting this type of behavior, realize that (at least at my hospital) residents and attendings would rotated through services and therefore there was always a different group on each service. They don't really have any reason to expect treats because they weren't on the same service the month before.

Come to think of it, we would generally talk amongst ourselves about any behavior that might seem gunnerish. We'd decide how many patients we each would carry, what time we'd show up in the a.m., etc.

 

[Regnvejr]

Bring something when on-call in weekends. Weekend call staff always feel a little bit put upon, and donuts or a box of strawberries makes everything go better. When you are consistent, then it is not BN, but rather everybody doing their little extra to make things go well, and your contribution then simply involves the donuts or strawberries, or bagels & cream cheese, or whatever your budget can bear over the years. Since last year of medical school I have brought something to every call, and it simply helps everybody get through the day. Nurses and staff REALLY appreciate that. Attendings don't need the donuts, we can afford our own.

I never brought anything to the last day or anything like that, last day is more relaxed anyway, and nobody need the donuts to get through it.

 

[J1515]

Come to think of it, we would generally talk amongst ourselves about any behavior that might seem gunnerish. We'd decide how many patients we each would carry, what time we'd show up in the a.m., etc.

You just solved everyone's problems. That's exactly what we did as well. All you losers whining about professionalism and gunnerism need to remove the poles from your a**es. By thinking this far into everything, YOU are actually proving to be the bigger gunners. On a couple of rotations we picked up dunkin donuts or something as a group. One person collected the money and picked up the merchandise in the morning on the way in. There was no fighting over who was going to walk in with the pastries. Some of you people need to stop worrying about what everyone else is doing and worry about yourselves. Besides, cupcakes or cookies WILL NOT influence your grade. Whether or not you honor the shelf and were competent on the floor will. Grow up.

 

[Baditude]

When we had over night call on OB everyone brought some kind of a dish to pass. Nurses, residents, med students and the doctor on call all participated. If the nurses have gone the extra mile to put up with me and teach me along the way I bring in a treat near the end of my rotation and put it in the nurses lounge with a note that says thanks for putting up with me and helping me out. The nurses do not grade me but they make my residents life easier if they like me and are willing to take time to help me while my resident does something more important.
I come from a baking family so during holidays I try to bring in something special for those who don't get to take the holidays off. I am not a gunner or brown noser just someone trying to be considerate to those who are stuck teaching when they have a million other responsibilities.
I do not expect better grades of preference in choosing someone for the " good procedures" or whatever I just enjoy doing it and baking is a great stress reliever!

 

[Teee]

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