BS/MD v T5 undergrad

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Thanks for the reply

If I'm understanding correctly, you are arguing that it will be hard to get into a top med school because of Stanford's average GPA. Stanford has one of the highest, if not the highest, average undergrad GPA in the nation. But of course, he'll still have to work his ass off wherever he goes. Plus, the average Stanford student will probably have a higher uGPA at a "less competitive" institution. It becomes GPA weighed against undergrad name, so it's hard to base med school acceptance on GPA alone.

Even if he doesn't get into a top med school, I'm confident he will get into other schools and have more choices in terms of financial aid and location. I also mentioned his perseverance because on average, it takes a lot of great ECs to get into Stanford undergrad. Stanford will provide OP with so many great opportunities that are hard to find elsewhere.
I wouldn't say I am arguing that it will be exceedingly hard to get into a top medical school from Stanford. I just disagree with the sentiment in this thread that an acceptance into Stanford = you'll do great at Stanford and then get into a top medical school. A lot of people at top 10 undergrads wished it worked like that lol. Because they end up at DO schools when if they have gone to their state school and gotten close to a 4.0, they probably would have gotten into a T40 NIH MD school at the very least.

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I wouldn't say I am arguing that it will be exceedingly hard to get into a top medical school from Stanford. I just disagree with the sentiment in this thread that an acceptance into Stanford = you'll do great at Stanford and then get into a top medical school. A lot of people at top 10 undergrads wished it worked like that lol. Because they end up at DO schools when if they have gone to their state school and gotten close to a 4.0, they probably would have gotten into a T40 NIH MD school at the very least.
Couple of us said Stanford performance may be based on HS rigor and transition from HS to college :cool:
 
That isn’t how Stanford or other top 10 schools work. It’s clear a lot of people replying in this thread haven’t attended a top 10 school. Everyone at these schools has extreme academic ability, except maybe the athletes of big money sports. The average GPA at Stanford is like a 3.6 and I would be shocked if the average wasn’t lower for science classes. It is very unlikely to get into a too medical school with a sGPA < 3.5 which is presumably not at all an uncommon GPA at Stanford. Look at the MSAR for top 20 medical schools and their 10th and 25th percentile sGPA if you disagree with me. Even kids from top 10 undergrads are getting into top medical schools with 3.8+ GPAs.

This isn’t to say that OP can’t excel at Stanford, but the people acting like it is a given because of OP’s performance in high school is incredibly naive. Just not how things shake out at these top schools.
i went a similarly ranked school known for grade deflation and i did poorly. i'm currently in the process of preparing to apply after spending a few years working full time, another job part time, and taking post-bacc courses at night. and i still would recommend taking the stanford acceptance over a guaranteed MD.

to be honest, i should not have gone to med school immediately out of college. i was immature and lazy. at some point you have to fail and repent a little to grow. if OP goes to stanford and does not get the grades or EC's needed for med school, then they weren't ready for med school. they wouldn't be ready if the did the 7-year program either, but they'd be thrust into it anyways as an even more immature 20-21 year old.

tbh i'd rather see more people work in the real world for a few years before they go to medical school, rather than try to go even younger. but thats a whole separate argument about larger trends thats less relevant to the individual needs of the OP.
 
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i went a similarly ranked school known for grade deflation and i did poorly. i'm currently in the process of preparing to apply after spending a few years working full time, another job part time, and taking post-bacc courses at night. and i still would recommend taking the stanford acceptance over a guaranteed MD.

to be honest, i should not have gone to med school immediately out of college. i was immature and lazy. at some point you have to fail and repent a little to grow. if OP goes to stanford and does not get the grades or EC's needed for med school, then they weren't ready for med school. they wouldn't be ready if the did the 7-year program either, but they'd be thrust into it anyways as an even more immature 20-21 year old.

tbh i'd rather see more people work in the real world for a few years before they go to medical school, rather than try to go even younger. but thats a whole separate argument about larger trends thats less relevant to the individual needs of the OP.
well said, but as per working for few years I would say that also depends on maturity level and given how long the medical school and training I am not for it for everyone. My kid will probably be the youngest in his class but I don't anticipate any issues.
 
i went a similarly ranked school known for grade deflation and i did poorly. i'm currently in the process of preparing to apply after spending a few years working full time, another job part time, and taking post-bacc courses at night. and i still would recommend taking the stanford acceptance over a guaranteed MD.

to be honest, i should not have gone to med school immediately out of college. i was immature and lazy. at some point you have to fail and repent a little to grow. if OP goes to stanford and does not get the grades or EC's needed for med school, then they weren't ready for med school. they wouldn't be ready if the did the 7-year program either, but they'd be thrust into it anyways as an even more immature 20-21 year old.

tbh i'd rather see more people work in the real world for a few years before they go to medical school, rather than try to go even younger. but thats a whole separate argument about larger trends thats less relevant to the individual needs of the OP.
The 3.6 GPA requirement is still somewhat hard to achieve and without the burden of ECs, OP can work 20/hrs a week in a service job to get more experience.

Also, literally everywhere else in the world besides Canada, students enter medical school right after high school and they seem mature enough to become great physicians when they graduate.
 
The 3.6 GPA requirement is still somewhat hard to achieve and without the burden of ECs, OP can work 20/hrs a week in a service job to get more experience.

Also, literally everywhere else in the world besides Canada, students enter medical school right after high school and they seem mature enough to become great physicians when they graduate.
All BSMD required ECs but don't have any set number of hours. As per traditional path, some schools prefer lot of service hours but for most I believe 100-150 hrs each in clinical and non-clinical are sufficient and those are not hard to achieve in non-pandemic times.
 
All BSMD required ECs but don't have any set number of hours. As per traditional path, some schools prefer lot of service hours but for most I believe 100-150 hrs each in clinical and non-clinical are sufficient and those are not hard to achieve in non-pandemic times.
I've heard 150hr each is the minimum sufficient but many applicants have multiple times that, esp. at T20s. It's getting more competitive every year and who knows what OPs cycle will look like in 4-5 years. When I entered college 6 years ago, a 3.60 was considered "good" for MD. Now, it's at or below the 25th percentile for most MD schools.

But, there is no wrong choice here. Everyone has their own risk/benefit scale. Even as an average Stanford premed, OP can probably get into GW the traditional way, and maybe even a more prestigious school. The question is: can OP survive the premed weed-out classes? None of us have that answer.

I have many friends who had 2300+ SATs but dropped premed after they got Cs/Ds in gen chem or orgo.
 
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I've heard 150hr each is the minimum sufficient but many applicants have multiple times that, esp. at T20s. It's getting more competitive every year and who knows what OPs cycle will look like in 4-5 years. When I entered college 6 years ago, a 3.60 was considered "good" for MD. Now, it's at or below the 25th percentile for most MD schools.

But, there is no wrong choice here. Everyone has their own risk/benefit scale. Even as an average Stanford premed, OP can probably get into GW the traditional way, and maybe even a more prestigious school. The question is: can OP survive the premed weed-out classes? None of us have that answer.

I have many friends who had 2300+ SATs but dropped premed after they got Cs/Ds in gen chem or orgo.
Yes those are the minimums and you probably need to have another stronger experience like research (my kid has 2K research hours)
 
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BA/MD is my choice. You will save time. As long as you dont change your mind during mid course that you dont want to be doctor you should be good. I know one person who got into dermatology residency. He was a BS/MD graduate.
 
I think you need to consider how important location is to you, OP. They're literally on opposite sides of the country. I'm not sure where you're from, but if the GW BS/MD program is super far from your support system, that can be hard during medical school to be without your friends/family for extended periods.

Stanford has great grade inflation, as long as you take your MCAT studying seriously and apply early for med schools, stay active in your community and get some clinical experience/shadowing/research, you should be fine.

Someone also mentioned you may be Native? Stanford is super supportive of Natives in their professional programs. You may have a stronger support system of other tribes near you, if that matters to you as well. You are very likely to not find this in the D.C. area.
 
People have mentioned the caveat “if you are dead set on medicine”, but that’s a big if. You are 17-18. There’s a good chance that you will decide to pivot to another profession.


When or if you make that dececison (and it’s likely you will), you will be miles better off at Stanford where investment banking, consulting, prestigious CS outcomes etc etc will be much easier to obtain. And as many already mentioned, Stanford is known for grade inflation. If you put in the work, you’ll have a competitive gpa.
 
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75% of their premeds go to med school​



But make sure you know what that 75% means.

is it the %:

of freshman who say they are pre-med? no

the ones who get through Bio and Chem?

The ones who get through Organic Chem?

The ones who finish all the pre-med courses?

The ones who have a good GPA and good sGPA?

The ones who still want to go to medical school?

The ones who volunteer and shadow?

The ones who do research?

The ones who take the MCAT?

The ones who get a good score on the MCAT?



Of the ones who get that far....

The ones then who got a recommendation letter from the Health committee (if that is a thing at your college)?

Then 75% them get into medical school. But you have to get that far.
 
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75% of their premeds go to med school​



But make sure you know what that 75% means.

is it the %:

of freshman who say they are pre-med? no

the ones who get through Bio and Chem?

The ones who get through Organic Chem?

The ones who finish all the pre-med courses?

The ones who have a good GPA and good sGPA?

The ones who still want to go to medical school?

The ones who volunteer and shadow?

The ones who do research?

The ones who take the MCAT?

The ones who get a good score on the MCAT?



Of the ones who get that far....

The ones then who got a recommendation letter from the Health committee (if that is a thing at your college)?

Then 75% them get into medical school. But you have to get that far.
I have yet to see a source for this 75% number. The only thing I see on Google is some site with a ton of ads that spells the school as “Standford” and reads like a bad machine translation from Chinese.
 
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I have yet to see a source for this 75% number. The only thing I see on Google is some site with a ton of ads that spells the school as “Standford” and reads like a bad machine translation from Chinese.
Wouldn't doubt it. My Ivy school likes to tout that they have a ~70% acceptance rate for people with a >3.5 GPA, and they have stats from self-reporting students to back it up.
 
Wouldn't doubt it. My Ivy school likes to tout that they have a ~70% acceptance rate for people with a >3.5 GPA, and they have stats from self-reporting students to back it up.
And my middle tier college has stats saying that they have a >80% med school acceptance rate for GPA >3.5 and MCAT >502. Doesn’t mean much with how many DO’s schools there are now. 70% from an Ivy is still pretty horrible if you are the 30% that made it through all 4 years of premed classes, still want to be a doctor and probably would have been accepted if you went to your state school for undergrad. And that’s if the 70% is just for MD schools. If it includes DO schools then it is truly atrocious. If it includes Caribbean schools then those schools deserve sanctions lol
 
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And my middle tier college has stats saying that they have a >80% med school acceptance rate for GPA >3.5 and MCAT >502. Doesn’t mean much with how many DO’s schools there are now. 70% from an Ivy is still pretty horrible if you are the 30% that made it through all 4 years of premed classes, still want to be a doctor and probably would have been accepted if you went to your state school for undergrad. And that’s if the 70% is just for MD schools. If it includes DO schools then it is truly atrocious. If it includes Caribbean schools then those schools deserve sanctions lol
Yep, that's why I've been telling any pre-meds who are interested in my school to stay the hell away :lol:. It ain't worth the 250k COA by a long shot.
 
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I am a high school senior and was accepted to Stanford for undergrad but also accepted to GW for their 7 year BA/MD.

I am really torn between the two choices. I am as certain as I can be at this time that I want to be a doctor. Whereas one gives me a pretty much guaranteed med school acceptance, the other is one of the best schools in the world, but applying to med school even from Stanford still seems to be an arduous uncertain process.
Would you take bird in hand or go for the risk?
I am in a BA/MD program and I had similar predicament when making college decision. Many of my friends in the BA/MD program did too. One of them got into Yale and chose our program on top of that. Need to know some of the OP's factors (like who is paying for undergrad) to be able to make a better decision. Also, does GW require you to take MCAT and get a certain score for their BA/MD program? Feel free to PM if you have any questions
 
Couple of 7 year BSMD candidates I know ended up taking gap year to beef up research to apply for competitive specialties so don't bet on 1 yr physician salary savings.
Yes, one of friends kid took the GW 7 years, used the extra year for additional research, he got into orthopedic surgery.
 
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Also my daughter in BS/MD program , she finished half years early then did the study aboard . But her friends who were in ivy UG were busy maintained good GPA , research /doctors shadow/MCAT ....and still most of them decided gap year to prepared better application.
 
What percentage of Stanford undergrads who start out as pre-med wind up in med school? This is roughly your chance of getting into a med school once you graduate. DO NOT look at the number accepted through the pre-med committee as they will have already weeded out those who they do not think will make it into med.
 
Also my daughter in BS/MD program , she finished half years early then did the study aboard . But her friends who were in ivy UG were busy maintained good GPA , research /doctors shadow/MCAT ....and still most of them decided gap year to prepared better application.
but good percentage of those Ivy students matriculate without gap years though. Also, some take gap years to get into T5/T10 schools not to for GPA repair or ECs.
 
but good percentage of those Ivy students matriculate without gap years though. Also, some take gap years to get into T5/T10 schools not to for GPA repair or ECs.
Not anymore. For example, about 75% of Harvard, 65-75% of Princeton, and 80% of Dartmouth undergrads take at least 1 gap year.
Medical school applications are becoming way too competitive.

 
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Not anymore. For example, about 75% of Harvard, 65-75% of Princeton, and 80% of Dartmouth undergrads take at least 1 gap year.
Medical school applications are becoming way too competitive.

Again are they taking gap years to target for T5s or just to get into any medical schools?
 
Again are they taking gap years to target for T5s or just to get into any medical schools?
No idea, but given people I know and for myself, it was either a forced gap year for reapplication or to bolster our apps to get into any medical school.
I don't know anyone who took additional years off specifically to target T5s.* I was just addressing your first point; gap years are the norm now, even at elite undergrads.

*I just remembered someone. He took 2 gap years to do FT research since he was targeting T10 MSTP.
 
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i wonder if anyone has studied physician burnout compared between traditional MD graduates, BS/MD graduates, and non-trad (>2 years entry into med school after colllege) graduates? how many former BS/MD physicians are depressed and unhappy because they wouldn't have chosen the profession if they had other options in college, or because they were pressured by parents? i know multiple people at my UG that switched to getting a PhD because they looked at the lifestyle and decided it wasn't for them... these are people with 3.85+ GPAs and likely high MCATs (I only know of one that got a 517) that could have gotten acceptances if they wanted. medicine isn't the end-all be-all in the world, although many tiger parents probably think it is.
 
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If you do not take the BS/MD I will find you and chase you around with a stick!

If you are CERTAIN you want to be a physician this choice is obvious.
 
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I mean it doesn’t matter if it is on the chill side if half their students are getting sGPA’s <3.6😬
The average GPA at my school (top 25 college undergrad stats wise comparable to Stanford) was 3.1 or so and a 3.6 would put you in the top 15% or so off the class. Everyone was in the top of their high school class with top SAT scores. So yes, a 3.6 GPA average GPA sounds pretty sweet to me.
 
Also nepotism at top research medical schools is real.
 
GW requirements: maintaining a minimum 3.60 overall GPA; no grades of C or below in any science courses; providing an MCAT practice exam score from an online MCAT review; and participation in medically-related and service experiences. So easily doable.

Also GW cost is comparable to Stanford and I don't think they offer much in terms of merit.

As a parent I am against 6 or 7 year program and would want kids to enjoy the UG and as anyone who seen my posts know how it worked out for my kid (I don't want to rehash and sound gloating :) )
In other words, it isn’t a guaranteed thing after all. While Georgetown isn’t known for deflation like some other schools, I’m betting the average GPA is a lot lower than 3.6 (the quoted GPA for Stanford).
 
Since the out of pocket cost is the same at both, do factor in the cost of the MCAT exam, AMCAS application and secondaries, travel to interviews (which we are likely to be doing 3 years from now), interview clothing, and all the rest. Most people spend a few thousand (or much more) on the MCAT prep/application/interview process.
 
Locking yourself into one career at 17 or 18 is, in my opinion.....lunacy. Yes, medical school admissions are nuts. But Stanford *certainly* has the resources to get you there, if that's what you decide in a few years.

But honestly? Give yourself the time and experience to really be sure, or to fall in love with something else.
 
The average GPA at my school (top 25 college undergrad stats wise comparable to Stanford) was 3.1 or so and a 3.6 would put you in the top 15% or so off the class. Everyone was in the top of their high school class with top SAT scores. So yes, a 3.6 GPA average GPA sounds pretty sweet to me.
3.1 in your major/friend group or across the whole school? That seems incredibly low for Emory, UC Berkley, Georgetown, UMich, and USC. Assuming its one of those five because 9 times out of 10 if someone says they go to a "top 25 school" they go to 21-25...otherwise they would say top 20, or top 15, etc :D
 
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3.1 in your major/friend group or across the whole school? That seems incredibly low for Emory, UC Berkley, Georgetown, UMich, and USC. Assuming its one of those five because 9 times out of 10 if someone says they go to a "top 25 school" they go to 21-25...otherwise they would say top 20, or top 15, etc :D
or could be actual T25. Last year one said they go to T15 and based on other info I figured it's actually T15th and DMed them to alter the post.
 
I don't believe any 17 year old can be certain enough about medicine to turn down HYPS, there's just too much opportunity cost if they realize they want any other field

I did it as a 17 year old. Never regretted it, never changed my mind.
OP, i chose a state school BA/MD over multiple Ivies. People were really freaked out (how can you choose a state school over an ivy league??!), but I had the last laugh in the end. I came out with no college loans due to scholarships (still paid for med school but free college is nothing to sneeze at). Best decision of my life. You can get your “connections” in med school and residency. No one cares were you went to college when you are a physician. I dont even get asked where i went to med school. It also makes your college life so much easier not playing the stupid application games. Instead, you spend your time making yourself into a better, more informed person whose personal growth isn’t stunted by the need to constantly pad the med school application. Go BA/MD if you want to be a doctor, and don’t look back.
 
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Locking yourself into one career at 17 or 18 is, in my opinion.....lunacy. Yes, medical school admissions are nuts. But Stanford *certainly* has the resources to get you there, if that's what you decide in a few years.

But honestly? Give yourself the time and experience to really be sure, or to fall in love with something else.
No one is "locked in". It is reasonable to start the program and ask to transfer to a straight up BS or BA program if one chooses not to matriculate at the med school.
 
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I did it as a 17 year old. Never regretted it, never changed my mind.
OP, i chose a state school BA/MD over multiple Ivies. People were really freaked out (how can you choose a state school over an ivy league??!), but I had the last laugh in the end. I came out with no college loans due to scholarships (still paid for med school but free college is nothing to sneeze at). Best decision of my life. You can get your “connections” in med school and residency. No one cares were you went to college when you are a physician. I dont even get asked where i went to med school. It also makes your college life so much easier not playing the stupid application games. Instead, you spend your time making yourself into a better, more informed person whose personal growth isn’t stunted by the need to constantly pad the med school application. Go BA/MD if you want to be a doctor, and don’t look back.
Did anybody else in your BA/MD drop out of premed? Or 100% saw it through to med school? I don't really have any sense of how exposed these 17 year olds are to what med school, residency or practice are like
 
Did anybody else in your BA/MD drop out of premed? Or 100% saw it through to med school? I don't really have any sense of how exposed these 17 year olds are to what med school, residency or practice are like
AAMC data shows 5% BSMD matriculants dropped out vs 2.x% for others. It was debated month or two back.
 
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AAMC data shows 5% BSMD matriculants dropped out vs 2.x% for others. It was debated month or two back.
He's asking about dropping out of premed. You are citing dropping out of med school! The attrition rates of the BS/MD programs vary widely, but nobody has a 100% matriculation rate into med school. Some people lose interest and others are kicked out for failing to meet standards. At some programs (typically those that are easier to get into) the attrition rate can be greater than 50%.
 
I am absolutely shocked that 95% of 17 year olds correctly predict medicine, but I stand corrected!
Nope -- you are correct! Please see my post!! 5% of the people who make it to med school don't survive med school, which is a sky high attrition rate for any US med school. MANY more than that drop BS/MD prior to entering med school.
 
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I am absolutely shocked that 95% of 17 year olds correctly predict medicine, but I stand corrected!
95% of that 95% are ORMs with tiger/helicopter parents, so no chance that they will deviate :)
 
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Locking yourself into one career at 17 or 18 is, in my opinion.....lunacy. Yes, medical school admissions are nuts. But Stanford *certainly* has the resources to get you there, if that's what you decide in a few years.

But honestly? Give yourself the time and experience to really be sure, or to fall in love with something else.

The guy/gal says he’s sure. If that is the case, they need to do the MD undergrad deal. I wanted to be a doctor since childhood. I spent weekends with the pathologist and his lab tech at my hometown hospital when I was 10. I had an old, research/ lab grade Bausch & Lomb scope when i was 12. My 16th b-day present was Robbins Pathology ( probably ‘64 ed.) and Gray’s anatomy. I never considered anything but medicine. There are others like I was
 
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3.1 in your major/friend group or across the whole school? That seems incredibly low for Emory, UC Berkley, Georgetown, UMich, and USC. Assuming its one of those five because 9 times out of 10 if someone says they go to a "top 25 school" they go to 21-25...otherwise they would say top 20, or top 15, etc :D
You’ve misjudged me. I was intentionally being vague as possible while trying to provide some modicum of meaning. I don’t want an admissions committee member to be able to identify me on the basis of my SDN moniker.
Edited to add: The GPA between average pre-med majors was close to the class wide average .
 
You’ve misjudged me. I was intentionally being vague as possible while trying to provide some modicum of meaning. I don’t want an admissions committee member to be able to identify me on the basis of my SDN moniker.
just curious, your status says non-student, are you an adcom or parent?
 
Did anybody else in your BA/MD drop out of premed? Or 100% saw it through to med school? I don't really have any sense of how exposed these 17 year olds are to what med school, residency or practice are like

One person during the 4 years I was there. They ended up going to a different med school eventually.
 
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One person during the 4 years I was there. They ended up going to a different Easter basket eventually.
Someone is playing with the software. I sent a DM in which some of my message was altered to an egg like message too.
 
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