BS/MD vs WashU Undergrad

[shady0997]

I got into my in-state 8-year BS/MD program (Texas Tech UMSI) which guarantees a seat at the Texas Tech University Health Sciences Center (TTUHSC) so long as I maintain a 3.7 cumulative GPA, 3.6 sGPA, 100 hours of healthcare volunteering per year. The MCAT is waived; in fact, if you even register to take the MCAT, they will take away your seat at the medical school. I also have regular undergraduate options like WashU, Emory, and my public in-state school Texas A&M. I've mostly narrowed it down to between WashU and the BS/MD but I'm still considering other options:

--

WashU Pros:
- Abundant research opportunities
- Solid pre-medical program
- Lots of volunteering opportunities?
- Chance at better medical school

WashU Cons:
- Did not receive aid; have to pay the full sticker price of 76k/yr
- Grade deflation / Notoriously difficult pre-medical courses like Gen Chem?
- No guarantee of becoming a doctor.

--

BS/MD Pros:
- Received 9k/yr scholarship so it costs a total of 20k/yr
- Medical school also costs 20k/yr (super cheap)
- Less stress in applying to medical schools (no MCAT)
- Close to home (I'm a Texas resident)

BS/MD Cons:
- Limits my potential to become a medical student at a better MD school
- Location is not desirable, especially for 8 years.
- Low tier undergraduate and low tier MD

--

My financial situation is pretty good so I probably won't have to go into debt no matter the choice.

I have to make my decision by next week so any insights or recommendations are really appreciated. Thanks!!!

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[KnightDoc]

This is a rare total no-brainer. WashU is not Harvard. There is no guarantee you will do any better after 4 years and an extra $200K+. TX med schools are the dream for TX residents, due to cost, and there is no guarantee you will be successful there applying along with everyone else after 4 years, assuming you cannot get into a better school.

Applying OOS as a TX resident is EXTREMELY competitive due to the fact that most OOS schools will naturally assume you will be staying IS if you can. Finally, WashU is a known grade deflator, although med schools do make some allowance for that.

There is simply no good reason to make things so much more difficult for yourself, and so much more expensive, for the relatively small chance to maybe go to a better med school.

 

[GreenDuck12]

Agree with the above. Texas tech is a strong and inexpensive program.

 

[efle]

WashU because the texas public option is binding and no 17 year old should sign away the ability to consider all their options

 

[joshuamarcus]

Go to Texas tech. Washu is overrated

 

[efle]

Go to Texas tech. Washu is overrated

BS/MD programs are overrrated

 

[KnightDoc]

WashU because the texas public option is binding and no 17 year old should sign away the ability to consider all their options

Why do you say this? Nothing is ever binding for a 17 year old. OP can always relinquish the guarantee, transfer to another school, whatever.

It's not indentured servitude. It's an opportunity, with conditions, if he wants it. OP can always change his mind.

Again, WashU isn't Harvard, and even Harvard does not guarantee success, for all its students, in all their future endeavors. Sure, WashU is better than Texas Tech, but there is absolutely no guarantee, after spending an extra $200K+, that OP will be successful getting into a better med school, or any TX med school at all, just because he has a WashU bachelors. I'm not sure WashU is worth an extra $200K+ even without the guarantee. What makes you so sure?

 

[TheGranolaKing]

Texan here who goes to a WashU-level undergrad and is doing decently well, I'd honestly go with the BS/MD program. The requirements look pretty chill and it'll allow you to have a lot of fun and not stress too much about school. Doing well at a T20 undergrad is super time-consuming and exhausting and there's no guarantee that you'll do well enough at a school like WUSTL to go to med school, let alone a better med school than TTUHSC. When you tack on the extra cost of WUSTL, the TTUHSC path is a no-brainer as long as you're 100% committed to going into medicine. Look at Tech's match lists in the past few years and you'll see that they still match people to basically every specialty; it just comes down to if you can be at the upper end of your class and perform well on the USMLE.

 

[efle]

Why do you say this? Nothing is ever binding for a 17 year old. OP can always relinquish the guarantee, transfer to another school, whatever.

It's not indentured servitude. It's an opportunity, with conditions, if he wants it. OP can always change his mind.

Again, WashU isn't Harvard, and even Harvard does not guarantee success, for all its students, in all their future endeavors. Sure, WashU is better than Texas Tech, but there is absolutely no guarantee, after spending an extra $200K+, that OP will be successful getting into a better med school, or any TX med school at all, just because he has a WashU bachelors. I'm not sure WashU is worth an extra $200K+ even without the guarantee. What makes you so sure?

Let me rephrase their BS MD offer in plain language.

"Hello. You are an exceptional student far above who we typically manage to matriculate at our college. We know you are probably scared of the medical school application process and were going to try to leverage that to make you enroll here. Here is the offer:

You will make mostly A and A- grades similar to what we usually accept to our med school, and if you dont we take away the offer. You will be forbidden from even taking the MCAT. This probably sounds like a benefit to you, but really it's to protect our retention, because you're gifted at standardized tests and we dont want you to get a high score and apply out. Speaking of, were going to forbid you from considering other med schools, again because we'd probably lose you to other programs if you had any freedom in decision making four years from now.

Sound good? Just sign here"

 

[yellowranger]

76k a year for undergrad? hard to justify this especially when you might pay less total for BS/MD than just the 4 year undergrad

 

[absolutewasteman]

I went to WashU undergrad and loved it - I had so many opportunities there that I wouldn't have had otherwise and I really think it did a great job of preparing me for medical school and for life. That being said, if you're 100% committed to clinical medicine, you should take the BS/MD. If you have any desire to explore other career paths or a medical career that goes beyond traditional clinical practice (i.e. biotech VC/PE), go with WashU. Happy to say more about my experience at WashU via DM.

 

[KnightDoc]

Let me rephrase their BS MD offer in plain language.

"Hello. You are an exceptional student far above who we typically manage to matriculate at our college. We know you are probably scared of the medical school application process and were going to try to leverage that to make you enroll here. Here is the offer:

You will make mostly A and A- grades similar to what we usually accept to our med school, and if you dont we take away the offer. You will be forbidden from even taking the MCAT. This probably sounds like a benefit to you, but really it's to protect our retention, because you're gifted at standardized tests and we dont want you to get a high score and apply out. Speaking of, were going to forbid you from considering other med schools, again because we'd probably lose you to other programs if you had any freedom in decision making four years from now.

Sound good? Just sign here"

Agreed -- 1,000%.

And, if the deal is to be full pay at a place like Drexel versus being on scholarship at a state school or a T20, there is a strong argument to forgo the "opportunity" and roll the dice. But here, it's the exact opposite.

Take the guarantee at a low cost, reasonably well regarded state school with an after scholarship 8 year cost of $160K, OR, fully utilize your awesome test taking and other talents to spend $304K for UG, plus who knows what for med school, in a non-guaranteed attempt to trade up for what's behind Door #2, which might end up being a reapplication if it's not a T20 acceptance.

TX applicants do not exactly set the world on fire, particularly OOS, where a whopping 296 applicants matriculated last cycle out of an applicant pool of 4,888 (1,556 stayed IS, at places just like Texas Tech, while 3,036 found themselves wishing they had a plain language BS/MD offer to turn their collective noses up at as they contemplated their next steps after a failed cycle). Yeah, a low cost IS guarantee actually sounds pretty good for the 94% of TX applicants who do not end up attending med school OOS.

It is notoriously difficult for TX applicants to break through OOS due to their very well regarded, very low cost IS options, including Texas Tech. Trying to trade up is a pretty high risk, low reward, high cost proposition for most people.

 

[Test Boy]

I got into my in-state 8-year BS/MD program (Texas Tech UMSI) which guarantees a seat at the Texas Tech University Health Sciences Center (TTUHSC) so long as I maintain a 3.7 cumulative GPA, 3.6 sGPA, 100 hours of healthcare volunteering per year. The MCAT is waived; in fact, if you even register to take the MCAT, they will take away your seat at the medical school. I also have regular undergraduate options like WashU, Emory, and my public in-state school Texas A&M. I've mostly narrowed it down to between WashU and the BS/MD but I'm still considering other options:

--

WashU Pros:
- Abundant research opportunities
- Solid pre-medical program
- Lots of volunteering opportunities?
- Chance at better medical school

WashU Cons:
- Did not receive aid; have to pay the full sticker price of 76k/yr
- Grade deflation / Notoriously difficult pre-medical courses like Gen Chem?
- No guarantee of becoming a doctor.

--

BS/MD Pros:
- Received 9k/yr scholarship so it costs a total of 20k/yr
- Medical school also costs 20k/yr (super cheap)
- Less stress in applying to medical schools (no MCAT)
- Close to home (I'm a Texas resident)

BS/MD Cons:
- Limits my potential to become a medical student at a better MD school
- Location is not desirable, especially for 8 years.
- Low tier undergraduate and low tier MD

--

My financial situation is pretty good so I probably won't have to go into debt no matter the choice.

I have to make my decision by next week so any insights or recommendations are really appreciated. Thanks!!!

No brainer. Take the bs/md. And you probably don’t wanna be in Missouri anyway.

 

[efle]

Agreed -- 1,000%.

And, if the deal is to be full pay at a place like Drexel versus being on scholarship at a state school or a T20, there is a strong argument to forgo the "opportunity" and roll the dice. But here, it's the exact opposite.

Take the guarantee at a low cost, reasonably well regarded state school with an after scholarship 8 year cost of $160K, OR, fully utilize your awesome test taking and other talents to spend $304K for UG, plus who knows what for med school, in a non-guaranteed attempt to trade up for what's behind Door #2, which might end up being a reapplication if it's not a T20 acceptance.

TX applicants do not exactly set the world on fire, particularly OOS, where a whopping 296 applicants matriculated last cycle out of an applicant pool of 4,888 (1,556 stayed IS, at places just like Texas Tech, while 3,036 found themselves wishing they had a plain language BS/MD offer to turn their collective noses up at as they contemplated their next steps after a failed cycle). Yeah, a low cost IS guarantee actually sounds pretty good for the 94% of TX applicants who do not end up attending med school OOS.

It is notoriously difficult for TX applicants to break through OOS due to their very well regarded, very low cost IS options, including Texas Tech. Trying to trade up is a pretty high risk, low reward, high cost proposition for most people.

By all means WashU may be the wrong option too. I just wouldnt even consider the BS/MD in this equation. Someone good at test taking should plan to take the MCAT and know their real options (which may include large recruitment aid offers and end up SAVING money). This should be seen as regular Tech vs A&M vs WashU vs Emory vs whoever else.

 

[deleted314957]

Do the BS/MD. And stop listening to people who haven’t spent one day practicing medicine who talk about how school xyz is “regarded” and limiting your chances. If you shine over the next 8 years you will not have ANY serious limitations. You have already won the ball game. The kids telling you what do do are still swinging away!

 

[efle]

Do the BS/MD. And stop listening to people who haven’t spent one day practicing medicine who talk about how school xyz is “regarded” and limiting your chances. If you shine over the next 8 years you will not have ANY serious limitations. You have already won the ball game. The kids telling you what do do are still swinging away!

These BS/MD programs are straight up predatory. They literally refuse to let you even see what your other options would be. Can you think of a justifiable reason for that?

 

[pazzer2]

Save your money and go for BS/MD. You'll always have the chance to leave TX for your residency. Not worth the extra debt.

 

[KnightDoc]

By all means WashU may be the wrong option too. I just wouldnt even consider the BS/MD in this equation. Someone good at test taking should plan to take the MCAT and know their real options (which may include large recruitment aid offers and end up SAVING money). This should be seen as regular Tech vs A&M vs WashU vs Emory vs whoever else.

Maybe for the rest of us, but as with many things, TX really is an island onto itself.

All its schools are dirt cheap and inhospitable to OOS, but extremely attractive to IS. They are also relatively difficult for IS to get into.

TX has one of the lowest accept rates for its applicants in the country, and the TX applicant OOS accept rate is absolutely abysmal, so an IS guarantee is far more attractive there than in general.

Add on to that the fact that it's already $224K less expensive than the UG alternative, with a $20K med school tuition that will be hard to beat no matter what kind of scholarship OP receives (his lack of funding at WashU indicates there will be no need-based money), and there honestly is no reason for a TX resident not to jump at this, even if he later changes his mind. We don't know what his other options were, but these are the two finalists we are now left to debate.

No, this shouldn't be seen as Texas Tech vs. the field. This should be seen as a $160K MD guarantee vs. a $304K UG education and maybe another $400K for med school assuming he is good enough to score an A regular way. Sure, there is a chance that $400K could be brought back down to the $160K he is guaranteed now, but that would be at the same class of school as Tech, so why even consider that?

 

[deleted1066189]

76k per year is nuts, especially if you're paying for it

also, avoid grade deflation, it just isn't worth it

 

[KnightDoc]

These BS/MD programs are straight up predatory. They literally refuse to let you even see what your other options would be. Can you think of a justifiable reason for that?

Yup. Giving a risk averse candidate an early guarantee in return for obtaining a commitment from a higher stat candidate than it might be able to attract through the regular admission process. Each side receives something of value. If it wasn't justifiable and attractive to candidates, it wouldn't be a thing and schools wouldn't have any takers.

Yes, they are predatory for the nervous candidate (or his parents) turning down a full ride at a T20 to be full pay at a lower tier UG in return for a guarantee to a med school he wouldn't otherwise even consider applying to, but it's not a terrible deal in all cases, such as OP's. Like just about everything else, it's not one size fits all.

 

[efle]

Yup. Giving a risk averse candidate an early guarantee in return for obtaining a commitment from a higher stat candidate than it might be able to attract through the regular admission process. Each side receives something of value. If it wasn't justifiable and attractive to candidates, it wouldn't be a thing and schools wouldn't have any takers.

Yes, they are predatory for the nervous candidate (or his parents) turning down a full ride at a T20 to be full pay at a lower tier UG in return for a guarantee to a med school he wouldn't otherwise even consider applying to, but it's not a terrible deal in all cases, such as OP's. Like just about everything else, it's not one size fits all.

There are plenty of BSMD programs that let you apply out. Trapping the applicant is the biggest red flag I can imagine. If a program needs to do that, you do not want to be at that program.

 

[KnightDoc]

There are plenty of BSMD programs that let you apply out. Trapping the applicant is the biggest red flag I can imagine. If a program needs to do that, you do not want to be at that program.

UNLESS, they offer you a significant UG scholarship, a highly discounted med school tuition, a contingent guarantee that is reasonably easy to obtain, etc. Sure, the ability to apply out is the gold standard, but it's not all or nothing. A med school that freely allows its BS/MD students to apply out is clearly using the program as a recruiting tool for its UG, and obviously doesn't care whether or not the students enroll in the med school.

That doesn't make it either unreasonable, or a red flag, for the med school to use the program to recruit students it couldn't otherwise attract, and to not want to merely be an insurance policy. If this were not the case, we'd all feel free to let some schools know in our secondaries that we will happily consider attending if we can't do any better, and that they should accept us anyway because, who knows, we might actually end up there!

Would you honestly not want to apply to any program that would automatically reject you if you told them you were just playing them in case you aren't accepted at any of the other schools you'd rather attend? Would you really consider that "the biggest red flag you can imagine," not putting your interest in going to the best school for you above their interest in filling a class with people who genuinely want to go there?

For the record, no one is ever trapped, and there is never a financial penalty for leaving a program. There is absolutely nothing wrong with requiring a student to forfeit a guarantee if the school is not the student's first choice, and they'd rather see what else is out there.

 

[ingobingo]

If the only reason why you want to go to Texas Tech is because of its BS/MD program and not additional important factors like location/student body/resources/etc., I would suggest not pursuing the BS/MD program given that you have the option of attending WashU and it seems like you are somewhat financially well-off. The caveat is that WashU is notorious for having tough early premed courses (i.e. the exams and subsequent grading of questions are very tough), so a bit of introspection on your part is necessary to see whether you have the educational foundation/grit/motivation to succeed in these courses (on top of handling ECs) -- but that's why WashU has a highly regarded premed program.

 

[Lucca]

WashU because the texas public option is binding and no 17 year old should sign away the ability to consider all their options

this. all BS/MD programs are excellent deals for the schools and raw deals for the applicants.

 

[Damson]

Save tons of money, save yourself tons of stress of the premedical process, and become a doctor? Great deal for both the school and student if you ask me. The school gets a fresh, smart, non burned out student to train. The student gets to focus on their undergraduate studies, take care of their mental and physical health, and become a doctor earlier than most doctors.

If there's one thing you take from this thread, it's to go with the majority opinion. Go to texas tech's combined degree program and get into medical school.

 

[Damson]

UNLESS, they offer you a significant UG scholarship, a highly discounted med school tuition, a contingent guarantee that is reasonably easy to obtain, etc. Sure, the ability to apply out is the gold standard, but it's not all or nothing. A med school that freely allows its BS/MD students to apply out is clearly using the program as a recruiting tool for its UG, and obviously doesn't care whether or not the students enroll in the med school.

That doesn't make it either unreasonable, or a red flag, for the med school to use the program to recruit students it couldn't otherwise attract, and to not want to merely be an insurance policy. If this were not the case, we'd all feel free to let some schools know in our secondaries that we will happily consider attending if we can't do any better, and that they should accept us anyway because, who knows, we might actually end up there!

Would you honestly not want to apply to any program that would automatically reject you if you told them you were just playing them in case you aren't accepted at any of the other schools you'd rather attend? Would you really consider that "the biggest red flag you can imagine," not putting your interest in going to the best school for you above their interest in filling a class with people who genuinely want to go there?

For the record, no one is ever trapped, and there is never a financial penalty for leaving a program. There is absolutely nothing wrong with requiring a student to forfeit a guarantee if the school is not the student's first choice, and they'd rather see what else is out there.

Agreed. The student can choose to opt out of the program and take the MCAT if he/she so wishes.

 

[asmallpremed]

Guns Up!

 

[deleted314957]

These BS/MD programs are straight up predatory. They literally refuse to let you even see what your other options would be. Can you think of a justifiable reason for that?

I don’t see the big deal. i see it as 4 yrs of college and 4 years of med school. the first baby steps in a medical career. You just do it and move on.

 

[ingobingo]

I don’t see the big deal. i see it as 4 yrs of college and 4 years of med school. the first baby steps in a medical career. You just do it and move on.

This particular BS/MD program is binding, so it puts the student in a tough position if they decide that they don’t want to stay and instead apply out.

 

[Banco]

Even if it wasn't a BS/MD program, WashU is not worth it for full sticker price 76k a year. And WashU is known to grade deflate! F That.

Go to your instate school and the BS/MD, the barriers to entry are pretty low, there is no MCAT requirement, and the EC requirements are low. If you realize you hate the place, then take the MCAT, give up your spot, and apply regularly or switch fields etc.

If you're not 100% sure you want to do medicine/BS/MD and don't like Texas Tech as an undergrad, then I'd recommend your other state school (Texas A&M) or another school that is giving you better financial aid (Emory). Again, 300k for an undergrad degree? Absolutely bonkers.

It seems like you're from a financially well off family if 300k is nothing to them and they are willing to pay, even then, I'd rather not go to a grade deflating undergrad.

 

[ingobingo]

Even if it wasn't a BS/MD program, WashU is not worth it for full sticker price 76k a year. F that.

Go to your instate school and the BS/MD, the barriers to entry are pretty low, there is no MCAT requirement, and the EC requirements are low. If you realize you hate the place, then take the MCAT, give up your spot, and apply regularly or switch fields etc.

Again, 300k for an undergrad degree? Absolutely bonkers.

OP mentions that he is likely in the financial position to be able to go to WashU.

If you take advantages of the “perks” of the BS/MD program (lax GPA standard, cookie cutter bare minimums, etc.), then you’ll be in a bad position to apply out. If you are a motivated student and don’t take advantages of the “perks”, then at that point it would’ve made more sense to attend a place like WashU anyways.

 

[Banco]

OP mentions that he is likely in the financial position to be able to go to WashU.

If you take advantages of the “perks” of the BS/MD program (lax GPA standard, cookie cutter bare minimums, etc.), then you’ll be in a bad position to apply out. If you are a motivated student, then at that point it’s better to attend a place like WashU.

I mean, it's not my money, they can do with it what they like. I just find that notion absurd. Let your parents buy you a house during residency instead.

With regards to the second point, there are plenty of "motivated" pre-meds that never get a single interview.

 

[ingobingo]

I mean, it's not my money, they can do with it what they like. I just find that notion absurd. Let your parents buy you a house during residency instead.

With regards to the second point, there are plenty of "motivated" pre-meds that never get a single interview.

Agreed, which is why this is an introspective process and OP needs to think about the benefits/sacrifices that come with each option. I’ll say that at the caliber of WashU, unless OP completely messes up their eventual med school application, they’ll at minimum likely receive interviews to med schools with a GPA/MCAT of 3.6+/515+

Edit: here’s some data to support this: 2014-2018AS_BCPMvsGPAGrid.pdf - Box

 

[Banco]

Agreed, which is why this is an introspective process and OP needs to think about the benefits/sacrifices that come with each option. I’ll say that at the caliber of WashU, unless OP completely messes up their eventual med school application, they’ll at minimum likely receive interviews to med schools with a GPA/MCAT of 3.6+/515+

Yeah well, duh, of course OP needs to think it through, I'm not stopping them; I still think it would be absurd.

And that's a lot of assumptions. I don't doubt OP could be a successful pre-med at WashU, but **** is going to be so much more effort for no guarantee.

 

[KnightDoc]

Yeah well, duh, of course OP needs to think it through, I'm not stopping them; I still think it would be absurd.

And that's a lot of assumptions. I don't doubt OP could be a successful pre-med at WashU, but **** is going to be so much more effort for no guarantee.

And ... a lot more money, no matter how affluent his family might be. It just seems crazy to go out of your way to choose the more difficult, more expensive option when you have good alternatives to get to the same place.

 

[ingobingo]

Yeah well, duh, of course OP needs to think it through, I'm not stopping them; I still think it would be absurd.

And that's a lot of assumptions. I don't doubt OP could be a successful pre-med at WashU, but **** is going to be so much more effort for no guarantee.

I’m in the camp that more effort equates to doing the activities/learning the right study habits and materials that will ultimately make you a better doctor, which is why I typically support the undergrad option vs. BS/MD, especially if it comes from a school where, if you excel, you will be a standout during the med school applications (and even if you are average, you probably won’t be completely looked over). It just gets harder from here with every step of the HS/UG/Med School/Residency training.

 

[Banco]

I’m in the camp that more effort equates to doing the activities/learning the right study habits and materials that will ultimately make you a better doctor, which is why I typically support the undergrad option vs. BS/MD, especially if it comes from a school where, if you excel, you will be a standout during the med school applications (and even if you are average, you probably won’t be completely looked over). It just gets harder from here with every step of the HS/UG/Med School/Residency training.

You think that the more struggles you overcome in the pre-med rat race to get admitted to medical school makes you a better doctor? Is this some kind of weird stockholm syndrome?

In the Banco school of thought, being able to go to medical school makes you a better doctor, because without it, you can't be one at all. I'd like to have this printed into a fortune cookie if possible.

 

[KnightDoc]

I’m in the camp that more effort equates to doing the activities/learning the right study habits and materials that will ultimately make you a better doctor, which is why I typically support the undergrad option vs. BS/MD, especially if it comes from a school where, if you excel, you will be a standout during the med school applications (and even if you are average, you probably won’t be completely looked over). It just gets harder from here with every step of the HS/UG/Med School/Residency training.

Sounds great. In fact, you sound like my dad, who also doesn't believe in any path that doesn't build character. Most people, though, aren't looking to be heros and just want to get where they are going.

Your advice might be applicable to a very high stat candidate who received As from Penn tier schools, but, you should realize, it has no relevance to the vast majority of the applicant pool. A lower tier, lower cost, TX public school might in fact be a wonderful option for a TX resident who isn't going to be receiving an all expense paid 7-8 year trip to Philadelphia. If you didn't have any As and you ended up having to reapply, would you still stand by your opinion as expressed above? If so, I'm pretty sure you'd be in a tiny minority of applicants who are so enthralled with top tier schools that they'd rather submit to another cycle than take an A at a low tier state school.

And, that is actually exactly what you are advising -- screw the guarantee, the struggle is good for you, and, since things don't get any easier, you might as well make it as hard on yourself as possible as early as possible. Good for you and my dad, but most people don't go out of their way looking for problems. A guarantee has a very high value for most people in an environment in which less than 40% are successful.

 

[Test Boy]

You think that the more struggles you overcome in the pre-med rat race to get admitted to medical school makes you a better doctor? Is this some kind of weird stockholm syndrome?

In the Banco school of thought, being able to go medical school makes you a better doctor, because without it, you can't be one at all. I'd like to have this printed into a fortune cookie if possible.

I think she’s basically saying that the harder undergrad will make you into a better student for med school and residency due to the discipline and hard work required to excel at this harder undergrad. I think this could be true for some people whereas others could just get burned out. Depends on the individual.

 

[Banco]

I think she’s basically saying that the harder undergrad will make you into a better student for med school and residency due to the discipline and hard work required to excel at this harder undergrad. I think this could be true for some people whereas others could just get burned out. Depends on the individual.

I get what they're saying, and that may well be true to some extent, but also that poster is still a "pre-med" so how could they possibly know really.


The current difficulty and struggle in getting into medical school is there as a side effect of increased competition over the years. It isn't in place to build up the character of future physicians. Go back 20 years and you'll see current attendings, who are by and large great doctors, getting into MD schools with scores and activities that would be DOA these days. So while the "struggle" might be a silver lining and a positive way to look at it, I'd rather spare myself.

 

[Damson]

@ingobingo Not everyone has to put in the same effort to achieve the same outcome. The experience of going through the lengthier, harder route of MCAT prep/volunteer/high GPA maintenance/writing apps/interviewing may or may not make one "more ready" for medical school. My take on it is meh. maybe a little bit.

Gotta reiterate the point @Banco made that also crossed my mind; I've heard things about WashU being a really difficult university for premeds to maintain a high GPA. Given that, and the MUCH higher sticker price, even if there was no BS/MD opportunity, I'd still go to texas tech.

@shady0997 go shine at texas tech!

 

[efle]

I don’t see the big deal. i see it as 4 yrs of college and 4 years of med school. the first baby steps in a medical career. You just do it and move on.

You heard it here folks, 8 years in lubbock is an insignificant amount of time, and college and med school are definitely not an important period in a young persons life.

With this kind of mindset I can see how teenagers get talked into these awful BS/MDs

 

[EdgeTrimmer]

As most of you know I am not a fan of BSMD programs but given WashU is full pay and TX is very cheap I would go with BSMD. Since this is a 8 year program, may be OP go in with a expectation that you will apply out and work hard, take a practice test and decide whether to take MCAT or not based on that.

 

[Damson]

You heard it here folks, 8 years in lubbock is an insignificant amount of time, and college and med school are definitely not an important period in a young persons life.

With this kind of mindset I can see how teenagers get talked into these awful BS/MDs

Except @mikesheree is a seasoned physician, not a teenager

 

[efle]

Except @mikesheree is a seasoned physician, not a teenager

I'm aware, I'm saying hes on here telling a teenager its NBD to sign up for a decade of 200k person locale in west texas, with no ability to apply out, with the reasoning "just do it"

 

[KnightDoc]

I'm aware, I'm saying hes on here telling a teenager its NBD to sign up for a decade of 200k person locale in west texas, with no ability to apply out, with the reasoning "just do it"

You keep ignoring the fact that he is a TX resident, so 8 years in Lubbock might not be as abhorrent to him as it clearly would be to you.

You also keep ignoring the fact that a ton of students transfer every year to and from colleges all over the country if they are unhappy where they are.

You also keep ignoring the fact that he could drop the guarantee at any time and do whatever the hell he wants.

You also keep ignoring the fact that Lubbock is a low cost guaranteed option that could very well end up saving OP over $500K, which is real money to everyone, no matter how much they already have.

This really is a total no-brainer, free option for a teenager, who thinks he might want to be a doctor, and who retains total freedom to change his mind at any time, from initial deposit, through any of the 4 years of UG, and right through med school. People change their mind then too, at HMS as well as at Tech. It is NOT an irrevocable life decision, which you seem to think it is. And, even if it was, 17 year olds have been known to make far worse decisions than this.

 

[efle]

You keep ignoring the fact that he is a TX resident, so 8 years in Lubbock might not be as abhorrent to him as it clearly would be to you.

You also keep ignoring the fact that a ton of students transfer every year to and from colleges all over the country if they are unhappy where they are.

You also keep ignoring the fact that he could drop the guarantee at any time and do whatever the hell he wants.

You also keep ignoring the fact that Lubbock is a low cost guaranteed option that could very well end up saving OP over $500K, which is real money to everyone, no matter how much they already have.

This really is a total no-brainer, free option for a teenager, who thinks he might want to be a doctor, and who retains total freedom to change his mind at any time, from initial deposit, through any of the 4 years of UG, and right through med school. People change their mind then too, at HMS as well as Tech. It is NOT an irrevocable life decision, which you seem to think it is. And, even if it was, 17 year olds have been known to make far worse decisions than this.

Like most states the vast majority of Texans live in cities and would prefer not to be in Lubbock, but true, maybe he loves Lubbock. I've said it already and I'll say it again, the right choice for him may still be Tech or any of the others. I just HATE seeing people hype the BS/MD part as a reason to choose Tech. It's a **** deal that helps the school, not the student. If Tech is the right choice of cost, location, career opportunities, fit, etc then by all means he should go to Tech. But if the BS/MD is the reason why, he shouldnt.

 

[ingobingo]

Sounds great. In fact, you sound like my dad, who also doesn't believe in any path that doesn't build character. Most people, though, aren't looking to be heros and just want to get where they are going.

Your advice might be applicable to a very high stat candidate who received As from Penn tier schools, but, you should realize, it has no relevance to the vast majority of the applicant pool. A lower tier, lower cost, TX public school might in fact be a wonderful option for a TX resident who isn't going to be receiving an all expense paid 7-8 year trip to Philadelphia. If you didn't have any As and you ended up having to reapply, would you still stand by your opinion as expressed above? If so, I'm pretty sure you'd be in a tiny minority of applicants who are so enthralled with top tier schools that they'd rather submit to another cycle than take an A at a low tier state school.

And, that is actually exactly what you are advising -- screw the guarantee, the struggle is good for you, and, since things don't get any easier, you might as well make it as hard on yourself as possible as early as possible. Good for you and my dad, but most people don't go out of their way looking for problems. A guarantee has a very high value for most people in an environment in which less than 40% are successful.

If you want me to provide relevant context on my background as opposed to just gleaming my post history, here it is: 5 years ago I was in the same position for BS/MD programs. I had the option to attend Northwestern, Brown, and WashU's BS/MD programs and was torn between the decision of these programs vs. regular college. I talked extensively with physicians, mentors, etc. and the key advice I took was to believe in myself and know that if a school admitted me, then I was qualified enough to succeed there. I am so glad that I took this advice, and it just so happens that I remained committed to my interests in medicine (even deciding that I want to have a career in patient-oriented basic research). If I didn't have any A's, then I would take another year to critically review and improve upon my application to reapply. I had this in mind going into the cycle, especially with COVID and the fact that one of my lab mates had to reapply this cycle (they now have some fantastic schools to choose from).

And yes, screw the guarantee if the only reason why you want to attend a particular institution is for the BS/MD program and nothing else that the school can offer better that WashU can't offer (especially since the OP lists the TX location as a con). But that's my opinion and one I stand by. I am offering my advice because someone helped me all those years ago and I want to give back by providing my perspective. The good thing about having a constructive discussion is that the OP can weigh everything we mention and make a decision that works best for them.

Edit: Only just saw some posts addressed to me from earlier
- @Banco at the end of the day my point boils down to the fact that simply choosing the BS/MD program because it's a BS/MD program isn't enough, especially when there are cons that can affect your experiences and especially when you have great options (i.e. WashU/Emory) for undergrad. That isn't even to bring in the fact that 4 years of undergrad is a long time and OP might even have a change of heart with medicine. Rarely will I be gung-ho for someone to choose a BS/MD program for these reasons. I do see where you're coming from (one of my parents even echoed your sentiments way back when I was deciding on undergrad programs) but I think we just hold two very different camps of thought.
- @Test Boy just wanted to give you a heads up and let you know that I'm a male - no worries!

 

[KnightDoc]

Like most states the vast majority of Texans live in cities and would prefer not to be in Lubbock, but true, maybe he loves Lubbock. I've said it already and I'll say it again, the right choice for him may still be Tech or any of the others. I just HATE seeing people hype the BS/MD part as a reason to choose Tech. It's a **** deal that helps the school, not the student. If Tech is the right choice of cost, location, career opportunities, fit, etc then by all means he should go to Tech. But if the BS/MD is the reason why, he shouldnt.

I might be a bit of a hypocrite, because I don't totally disagree with you. BS/MD programs are scams to the extent they prey on the insecurities of high stat HS students (and, more importantly, their overbearing parents), and suck them into being full pay at lower ranked programs (especially UG) that they would never otherwise consider in return for a guarantee at a med school that they also would probably never even apply to regular way.

That said, there ARE exceptions. Brown is an exception if you are drawn to that school. Northwestern was, being a T20 UG and med school, which is probably why they pulled the plug. And, in this case Tech is, given how extremely difficult it is for TX applicants to find success outside TX, how many of them are unsuccessful even within TX, how inexpensive Tech is, and how expensive the alternative is.

This is not a bad deal for OP, who can always change course if he is unhappy. Again, it is not full pay Drexel or CNU luring him away from a full ride at Vandy. It is a $20K/yr guaranteed opportunity luring him away from being full pay at a T20.

 

[shady0997]

Hey all,

Thanks for all of your helpful responses.

It seems that WashU, Emory, or any other expensive private schools are pretty much out of the question now in terms of the cost and risk associated with it.

Now, discussing the BS/MD: I really like that it would provide me a peace of mind as an undergraduate so that I'd be able to explore different passions, have fun, and focus on myself for the next four years. Also, I've looked at the profiles of some students that have gone through this specific BS/MD and most of them have an MBA by their senior year of undergrad along with some research publications. If this program provides me that ease of obtaining an MBA and research right before medical school, it'd pretty much be a no-brainer, but I need to make sure with the program director.

However, going beyond the option of WashU is the fact that I'm on the UT Austin waitlist. Now, UT Austin is also cheap but it's a tad bit more expensive than Texas Tech because they don't give out scholarships (30k/yr) so they're both around the same ballpark. Texas A&M is also similar in that regard. The waitlist is not your typical waitlist, though. According to my UT Austin application portal, they only admit a "very select few" onto the waitlist this year so I'm pretty confident I'd get in by next month. I would presume that they're using this waitlist to gauge the amount of admitted students that enroll this fall.

@ingobingo is correct in that the only reason I'd ever go to Texas Tech would be for its BS/MD program because of the quality of the other students and its location, but from my perspective, it seems worth the sacrifice. On the other hand, I'd be happy to go to UT Austin because it's a nice, familiar location and that I know the students are of higher quality (many of my friends are attending). Overall, in terms of quality of location and students, I would rank my public IS undergrad schools as such in descending order: UT Austin, Texas A&M, and Texas Tech.

So I guess my final question boils down to this: would attending UT Austin/Texas A&M be worth the effort and stress of maybe getting to attend a better medical school like UT Southwestern and UT Houston McGovern over the guarantee of TTUHSC? Does going to a higher-ranked medical school really matter if I wanted to pursue a competitive residency such as ortho or general surgery?

Since medical school admissions seem to be getting increasingly more difficult every year with more and more people reapplying to more cycles and people taking gap years just for the sake of getting in, I am leaning towards the BS/MD. Especially as an Asian male, I know I'd have to grind my ass off in undergrad and sacrifice my mental well-being to get into ANY medical school.

Again, thank you all for helping me make my decision-making process much easier.