BSN..then medical school?

[wannabeeDO]

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Originally wanted to major in nursing for undergrad, because I wanted to be able to have the direct patient care contact (and make somewhat of a living) which I thought would be great for my ultimate goal of becoming a doctor...told by admissions counselor that it wasn't possible to go from a nurse to a doctor, so I became a biology major...

Did very well freshman year, but sophmore year my GPA took the hardest hit ever and although I tried to make up for it I ended up graduating with a 2.99 gpa (awful I know)...I was plain not focused as I should have been on my goal and feel that my environment had something to do with it....but at any rate..I applied to a post-bac program and got my letter this week saying I have been waitlisted...how does one take it as a no...and move on or a wait and see?

I thought that maybe I need to not only prove to myself once again, but also to admission committees it seems that I do still really want to be a doctor...so I thought maybe I'd do an accelerated BSN program beginning this January and raise my gpa and get more patient care experience...although my resume is very well comprised as it is...any advice?

 

[lord_jeebus]

Your GPA is your main weakness. BSN programs are not known for academic rigor and may not even fulfill prerequisite requirements for medical school. In any event the degree would not be looked at highly by a medical school admissions committee.

Find a post-bac that will take you and go there.

 

[mspeedwagon]

I couldn't agree more with this advice. A BSN program is NOT the way to go unless you want to become a nurse. If you have the ability, you are a great candidate for programs that help build GPA (SMPs or similar post-bac programs), if not you can do an informal post-bac.

Given where you are starting from, re-taking that classes you did really badly in, acing the pre-reqs and applying D.O., which you probably are intending to judging from your sn, is the way to go.

Your GPA is your main weakness. BSN programs are not known for academic rigor and may not even fulfill prerequisite requirements for medical school. In any event the degree would not be looked at highly by a medical school admissions committee.

Find a post-bac that will take you and go there.

 

[mooshika]

My BSN program was very rigorous. What do you know about BSN programs not being rigorous? It is a fallacy.

Your GPA is your main weakness. BSN programs are not known for academic rigor and may not even fulfill prerequisite requirements for medical school. In any event the degree would not be looked at highly by a medical school admissions committee.

Find a post-bac that will take you and go there.

 

[lord_jeebus]

My BSN program was very rigorous. What do you know about BSN programs not being rigorous? It is a fallacy.

I know that I was on a medical school admissions committee that did not consider them equal to BA or BS degrees in liberal arts, science, or engineering.

Obviously I can not comment on the difficulty of your BSN program, but it's not going to be apparent to any adcom either.

 

[FrkyBgStok]

Another problem with nursing programs is the science classes are commonly put on by the nursing department not the biolgy department. So this will do nothing for your science gpa if it is low.

 

[wannabeeDO]

I applied to a SMP program and was waitlisted...applied to a post-bac program last year and was denied...I don't know what to do anymore

 

[PharMed2016]

I applied to a SMP program and was waitlisted...applied to a post-bac program last year and was denied...I don't know what to do anymore

You don't need a post-bac to bring your GPA up although it may help you get into a school that you plan on applying to. Just retake the courses that you didn't do well in. For DO admission, I believe that you can replace your worst grades with retakes. For MD admission, a lot of places average your GPA.

Good luck.

 

[mspeedwagon]

Your best option is to do an informal post-bac at a school local to you (I don't know where you are geographically, but places like Harvard Extension, UC Berkeley Extension are all great places to take classes).

You should start by re-taking the classes that are bringing your GPA down.

I applied to a SMP program and was waitlisted...applied to a post-bac program last year and was denied...I don't know what to do anymore

 

[agirl]

deleted.

I know that I was on a medical school admissions committee that did not consider them equal to BA or BS degrees in liberal arts, science, or engineering.

Obviously I can not comment on the difficulty of your BSN program, but it's not going to be apparent to any adcom either.

 

[agirl]

deleted/

Another problem with nursing programs is the science classes are commonly put on by the nursing department not the biolgy department. So this will do nothing for your science gpa if it is low.

 

[DrMidlife]

The issue with a nursing degree isn't rigor. It's whether you need to, and/or have to, take premed science coursework in addition to the nursing major requirements.

2 limiting issues with the nursing major with respect to science coursework:
1. science courses for a nursing major (bio/chem/ochem) aren't necessarily the premed prereqs (if they are offered through the nursing department, instead of the bio or chem department, they aren't the premed prereqs)
2. science courses for a nursing major don't necessarily prepare you to take the MCAT

Also, the microbiology and A&P coursework that are nursing requirements are considered lower division science. It's generally useful for premeds to take these courses, but they should not be confused with upper div micro/anat/physio.

Med schools differ, and undergrad curricula differ, so do your homework in choosing science coursework and in planning ahead for med school admission. Generally the premed prereqs are a year each, with lab, of bio/gen chem/organic chem/physics. Some undergrad schools offer two tracks of each of these, so that there is a bio/genchem/ochem/physics track for science majors and premed, and there is also a bio/genchem/ochem/physics track for non-science majors and nursing. Take the premed track if there are two tracks. Note that calculus-based physics is not a med school requirement, regardless of any one med school's calculus requirement.

Best of luck to you.

 

[cabinbuilder]

There are plenty of medical students who have done nursing first. A BSN degree is just fine if that's the route you want to go. There is no guarantee that anyone gets into medical school. But don't do a nursing degree if you hate nursing "just in case". That's a lot of hassle for nothing. However, if you do have a BSN and don't get into medical school you can go on to be nurse practioner or anesthetist instead. You can't do anything with a biology degree.

 

[mooshika]

Fogie is right and makes some good points.

I agree not to do a BSN if you already know you want to be a doctor. There is really no point. Not only that, it could conceivably cause you all kinds of unanticipated problems with the ADCOM's when they ask WHY??? And, really, why would you even consider this? Not only that, clearly, based on the above comments, there still exists a prejudice that nursing science is "dumbed down" science for the "dumber" nurses.


I think if you do well in the pre-med science classes, or do them post-bac at a good school, or do one of those SMP's they don't really care what your bachelor's is in, as long as you either did well, (or did well in the damage-control part of your academic career like myself and many other NT's).

Find the thread for RN's applying to med school and your questions will be answered. It takes a little more effort than just posting a new thread here, but start cultivating that effort-embracing quality because that is the kind of approach you will need to get through this process and be taken seriously. Anyone can go to med school, except for lazy people. Lazy people won't make it past the first gate.

 

[agirl]

deleted.

There are plenty of medical students who have done nursing first. A BSN degree is just fine if that's the route you want to go. There is no guarantee that anyone gets into medical school. But don't do a nursing degree if you hate nursing "just in case". That's a lot of hassle for nothing. However, if you do have a BSN and don't get into medical school you can go on to be nurse practioner or anesthetist instead. You can do anything with a biology degree.

 

[MSmentor018]

been in your shoes, BSN, now starting residency. it can be done, even with low grades/gpa/scores. harder but not impossible. search for the RN to MD/DO thread or click on my name and postings. there's plenty of information that should help/encourage you to carve a path to medicine and keep the dream alive. feel free to PM. good luck

 

[Chuck61686]

BSN programs are not known for academic rigor

Absolutely untrue. 🙄
My BSN program had a very stiff grading curve (ex. 77-84 is a C, 85-92 is a B, 93-100 is an A). Test questions were much less straight forward than the stuff I had in my chemistry and biology courses, they were highly scenario based and required extensive critical thinking. Not to mention those 20+ page care plans and 12-hour clinical days.

 

[MSmentor018]

. BSN programs are not known for academic rigor

Absolutely untrue. 🙄
My BSN program had a very stiff grading curve (ex. 77-84 is a C, 85-92 is a B, 93-100 is an A). Test questions were much less straight forward than the stuff I had in my chemistry and biology courses, they were highly scenario based and required extensive critical thinking. Not to mention those 20+ page care plans and 12-hour clinical days.

I wouldn't call that academic rigor, that's just f@#ked up in regards to gpa. there's no need for all that. critical thinking, scenario based, round about, ass backwards type questions are what I would consider normal for nursing exams/boards. especially in comparison to the straight up direct questions in chem/bio. and yeah 12 hr days can be draining and care plans.... whatever🙄

 

[lord_jeebus]

Allow me to clarify.

BSN programs are not known among members of medical school admission committees for their academic rigor.

Perhaps you attend the greatest and toughest BSN program in the country. First, chances are the OP is not applying to your particular program. Second, I wonder how many adcom members will recognize your BSN program and give it special consideration.

I'm not saying that someone currently in a BSN program is screwed - but given that the OP is not in a BSN program, there are better options for maximizing chances for eventual medical school admission.

 

[jl lin]

I know that I was on a medical school admissions committee that did not consider them equal to BA or BS degrees in liberal arts, science, or engineering.

Obviously I can not comment on the difficulty of your BSN program, but it's not going to be apparent to any adcom either.

Wow. . .really? Talk about biggotry and bias. Seriously? Not = to LA? What about other areas of applied science? And after all, EBP or not, so much even about medicine is applied science. sigh

After saying all that, I do agree that the OP should apply to a PB program or try for a SMP. Its focus will give OP a much better 'up' in terms of demonstrating the ability to work on directly relevant sciences.

Make no mistake about it, however, programs that are research-writing intensive require a lot of work, time, blood, sweat, and tears.

Anyone that has come even close to being published knows this. And from a higher level of learning--grad level--writing-intensive for research is a litmus test in and of itself.

I wish people would answer these questions w/o all the ignorance and ridiculous bias and such.

I can't possibly fathom someone like Dr. Midlife giving such biased and ignorance-based replies.

To your ad com and school, wow, what a totally poor reflection on them if true.


BTW, a number of programs in nursing require same gen. bios and chems. Dear God, they are Gen Bios and GENERAL CHEMISTRY courses.
The other science courses can be rigorous depending.

But it is fair to me to say that people should go to a nursing program primarily b/c they want to be nurses, period. Some disagree with me on that, but I have my own perspective on this as a professional nurse.

 

[jl lin]

Just noticed the replies that followed.

🙂 What many of them said.



OP: Seriously, look into some good PBs or SMPs. They can be hard to get into too; but I think they would be worth your while if you could get in and then keep your sGPA up.


To be sure, while being an art history major may be fascinating and require research and writing that is demanding in its own right, I must giggle at the prospect of a kick butt BSN program or even a kick butt ADN program being seen as somehow lesser as compared with a major such as that--as if such strong and intense BSN or ADN programs were like LPN-practical nursing programs. (No disrespect to LPNs intended, but most that were LPNs first would admit the difference.)

One thing about many decent nursing programs. They dont' hold your hand and give you two chances. You drop off once, maybe you get one more chance, and if you fall short again, your lose your seat in the program, period. It's kind of like boot camp, especially in the clinicals/practicums, where a fair amount of instructor-professors try to see how many they can get rid of or get to drop out. I used to be against this kind of thing, but I have mixed feelings about it now. Nursing isn't for wimps in reality, and that is sort of the point. Back in the day, I had nursing instructors that rode the students unbelievably, and the wise students got that what many of them were really looking to see was how much of an advocate the student would end up being for his/her patients. I think this needs to be reinstituted. To many seem to be out primarily for number one, and therefore they are so afraid to rock the boat when their patient or patients needs it to be rocking. It's kind of sad that a lot of nursing advocacy seems to be dying out. Get sick and have no one getting your back when you are acutely or critically ill, and then see how stupid and silly a strong and rigorous nursing education and experience are. WOW.

But I digress. . .

 

[lord_jeebus]

To your ad com and school, wow, what a totally poor reflection on them if true.

My impression is that even a strong GPA in a nursing program has historically been a poor predictor of academic success in medical school.

I doubt my school was unique in this assessment.

 

[jl lin]

My impression is that even a strong GPA in a nursing program has historically been a poor predictor of academic success in medical school.

I doubt my school was unique in this assessment.

LOL Terribly untrue, and there are more than enough professional nurses turned physicians to bear this out.

Poor predictor of academic success in medical school is all about being like a gnat and trying to swallow a camel. In other words, it is about the ability to cram massive tomes of information into your brain. Believe it or not, much of a good nursing program is about developing strong critical thinking skills. And that is to a person's advantage should he or she seek to become a physician.


The goal line in the most practical sense is to become a physician. People get so whacked about getting into med school (b/c usually IT IS such a crap shoot and an enormous pain in the butt--"jumping through many hoops" doesn't come close to describing it) that they lose sight of the ultimate goal.

One thing I guage in terms of discernment in motivation and dedication is something as simple as whether or not the person seeking med. school is focused on being called "doctor" versus seeing herself or himself as a physician. Physician is the key word there. If you are reasonably intelligent, diligent, and highly motivated you can graduate medical school.

 

[jl lin]

Respectfully lord, I would like to know that school, since I would not choose to apply to an institution with such myopic perspectives.

 

[mooshika]

I went to an accelerated four semester (post-bac) BSN program at **** University that also included 18 masters credits. We had 16-18 credits a semester plus 8 to 24 clinical hours a week. The pressure was very high and the hours were long and demanding, even for me, a competitive workaholic. The grading was tough in almost every class we took. It was competitive to get into the program, and it was well known in the program that academic talent was a prerequisite for success.

You really ought to consider rigor of BSN degrees on an individual basis.


There is no doubt in my mind that success in that program will predict similar success in medical school. I really hope your school IS unique in that assessment. If not, I would love a chance to prove them wrong. Or, at least find out which program that is, because I would not want to pay lots of money and go to a program that is so out of touch with reality.

My impression is that even a strong GPA in a nursing program has historically been a poor predictor of academic success in medical school.

I doubt my school was unique in this assessment.

 

[Nasrudin]

I went to an accelerated four semester (post-bac) BSN program at **** University that also included 18 masters credits. We had 16-18 credits a semester plus 8 to 24 clinical hours a week. The pressure was very high and the hours were long and demanding, even for me, a competitive workaholic. The grading was tough in almost every class we took. It was competitive to get into the program, and it was well known in the program that academic talent was a prerequisite for success.

You really ought to consider rigor of BSN degrees on an individual basis.


There is no doubt in my mind that success in that program will predict similar success in medical school. I really hope your school IS unique in that assessment. If not, I would love a chance to prove them wrong. Or, at least find out which program that is, because I would not want to pay lots of money and go to a program that is so out of touch with reality.

This @sshole is an extremist minority. And should be unheeded as such. Anyone who goes out of their way to make such an incendiary comment should be ignored.

Every credible person who has posted here. NJBMD and QofQuimica come to mind. Members of adcoms at one time or another. Have stated to the contrary. That one should major in something that interests them. And that the practical aspects of becoming a nurse for certain people are undeniable.

But by your own description. Clearly the study of nursing in a rigorous program presents it's own unique challenges that are not for everyone. I, like Jlin, think it should only be undertaken with the intent of doing the job for 1 - 2 years at least. Or its extra hassles--licensing, huge clinical commitment, etc--are just not worth it. Considering you could, in most cases streamline the effort of applying to medical school with a more compromising program.


Edit: (thought while falling asleep)

And you know what sucks. we wouldn't even be having this discussion if early 19th century vanilla frat boys studied nursing instead of some other impractical nonsense that only exists behind ivy covered halls.

But because it was traditionally a field for women. You now have to keep stamping out prejudice against it.

But from what I can tell. Your predecessors if only recently have beat the ugliness that Lord_Jeebus (I can't even type that name with out picturing a little weanie of a man--insecure at the slightest breeze against the ego) depicts into a manageable corner.

 

[MSmentor018]

You really ought to consider rigor of BSN degrees on an individual basis.


There is no doubt in my mind that success in that program will predict similar success in medical school.

i felt BSN program didn't prepared me for med school (it's not suppose to) but it lead me to a career in nursing, that in turn gave me a huge advantage in clinical rotations. but I definitely can't say success with getting my BSN made life any easier/predict how I did in med school. anyone find any studies on this subject?

 

[mooshika]

I will keep my eyes open for studies of this nature... I would predict that there is little or no difference in med school success between someone with a BSN and someone who majored in English or Chemistry.

You have to keep in mind that the individuals who have a BSN and also apply to medical school are not necessarily representative of the pool they come from in terms of academic and/or career ambition since not all nurses even consider med school (contrary to the popular belief on SDN boards that nurses are just people who couldn't hack med school.) My general impression is that anyone who feels up to the challenge and is able to make themselves competitive with the scores business, BSN or otherwise, is likely to be just as well equipped as any other person applying and/or succeeding, regardless of their undergrad major. This based on feedback from ADCOM members, etc.

Back to the OP - if you are just that close to getting/finishing the BSN, I don't see why not just finishing it and getting a job while you prepare to apply to medical school. The truth is, you can learn a great deal about medicine while working as a nurse in a hospital or anywhere else you find doctors, nurses and patients. And it will likely take a good year, two or even three to get through everything for med school apps, so why not just finish the BSN and make three times as much as you would make as a CNA or a tech?

In my situation, I was in a four semester thing - and didn't have an MCAT score until the middle of the third semester, so I was not about to up and leave after one semester when I made the decision to change focus because I still needed a bunch of chemistry and physics AND a good MCAT score. With one semester to go, I was ready to apply AND I got to finish, get the RN, and try to find a job - so it would have been plain stupid to up and quit nursing school at that point.

I think it all depends on where you are at, but I know for a fact that a BSN will not either hurt you or help you in terms of suitability for medical school. As everyone else has said, if you do well in those required core science courses, do well on the MCAT and have the cliical experiences, shadowing and all those other things that make you an appealing candidate, I really do not think it matters. But be prepared to face some challenges from interviewers about you career choices though.

Moo.

 

[n3xa]

Allow me to clarify.

BSN programs are not known among members of medical school admission committees for their academic rigor.

I'm not sure about actual BSN programs, but at SFSU the science pre-reqs for nursing were different than the science pre-reqs for med school.

I've seen the curriculum as a TA and as a student who took a few for GE credits, and those core science classes for nursing were not as in depth. I'm not sure if that was what you were getting at?

Whatever you do, enjoy it and kick ass in it.


*edit* did not see drmidlife's post. whoops.

 

[drlois]

Hey i finished nursing school 2 years ago and currently working at SICU. I'm doing my pre-requisites for medical school and working full time. I think it's a great advantage for people who go into nursing and become a doctor, because first off, you have hands on experience with the hospital (I can tell you I know alot more about the hospital and how it works and my critical thinking is just great compared to a fresh 3rd year medical student .... they don't know jack). Plus you can get GREAT letters of recommendations from attendings!!! And medical schools can see that yes you were a nurse, and you see how the doctors live and you still want to pursue it, you are determined. At least I KNOW I AM!!! I'm completely working hard and doing well in classes. And NURSING school is tough, for those of you who said it's not tough or considered a bachelors. And nursing school helps develop your critical thinking. And to end this note, those who become nurses first i think are the best doctors because they know what happens on both sides and don't become stuck up like those doctors who think they can talk down to nurses. peace. hope this encourages you. 👍

 

[The right Path]

I'm not sure about actual BSN programs, but at SFSU the science pre-reqs for nursing were different than the science pre-reqs for med school.

I've seen the curriculum as a TA and as a student who took a few for GE credits, and those core science classes for nursing were not as in depth. I'm not sure if that was what you were getting at?

Whatever you do, enjoy it and kick ass in it.


*edit* did not see drmidlife's post. whoops.

Pssst.... the SFSU (SF state) nursing students....er...how do I say this? Tend not to be.... hmmmm...on the same level as those from other local programs. I don't know what is the problem with their program, but generally speaking, they just don't seem to cut the mustard (in critical care anyway). Of course there have been exceptions.

 

[jl lin]

I'm not sure about actual BSN programs, but at SFSU the science pre-reqs for nursing were different than the science pre-reqs for med school.

I've seen the curriculum as a TA and as a student who took a few for GE credits, and those core science classes for nursing were not as in depth. I'm not sure if that was what you were getting at?

Whatever you do, enjoy it and kick ass in it.


*edit* did not see drmidlife's post. whoops.

This seems, like many things, to depend upon the schools. I so tire of this silly argument.
I mean to hear some people tell it, a four-year degree in basketweaving is more rigorous than nursing.

Again I say for the upteenth time, many in professional nursing programs take the SAME CREDIT/LAB for core undergrad natural science courses as other science majors.

And my microbiology was the same, and it was challenging given the amount of stuff we had to learn in the timeframe allotted. But then I overlearned, b/c I knew I would be taking the all essay Mid-Term--and that was was tough. You didn't know what the professor was going to ask in detail, so it was like learning at least a couple of textbooks in a week and a half. That was a good while ago, and my hand and wrist still hurt from it. And he asked that I describe all the specific mechanisms of action for a ton of antimicrobial agents--specific cellular functions, etc.


You know, I said it before. It depends on the school--and beyond that, guess what? It depends on the professor and those involved in direct instruction. You can easily be at the same school and one will be a killer and another not so bad.

But I ended up loving the killer dude in microbiology, b/c I learned that I could learn a lot, and a lot in detail, that was, as he stated, "amazingly comprehensive," in a relatively short period of time. And though I felt like I was completely tortured in that period of time, in some sicko way, I actually enjoyed it--though I basically hauled up in my room eating junk and studying for days on end.

🙂

 

[n3xa]

This seems, like many things, to depend upon the schools. I so tire of this silly argument.
I mean to hear some people tell it, a four-year degree in basketweaving is more rigorous than nursing.

Again I say for the upteenth time, many in professional nursing programs take the SAME CREDIT/LAB for core undergrad natural science courses as other science majors.

And my microbiology was the same, and it was challenging given the amount of stuff we had to learn in the timeframe allotted. But then I overlearned, b/c I knew I would be taking the all essay Mid-Term--and that was was tough. You didn't know what the professor was going to ask in detail, so it was like learning at least a couple of textbooks in a week and a half. That was a good while ago, and my hand and wrist still hurt from it. And he asked that I describe all the specific mechanisms of action for a ton of antimicrobial agents--specific cellular functions, etc.


You know, I said it before. It depends on the school--and beyond that, guess what? It depends on the professor and those involved in direct instruction. You can easily be at the same school and one will be a killer and another not so bad.

But I ended up loving the killer dude in microbiology, b/c I learned that I could learn a lot, and a lot in detail, that was, as he stated, "amazingly comprehensive," in a relatively short period of time. And though I felt like I was completely tortured in that period of time, in some sicko way, I actually enjoyed it--though I basically hauled up in my room eating junk and studying for days on end.

🙂

Of course it depends on the school and the professor and all those other factors. Keeping in mind of the two different science tracks certainly is the only real take-home message here. See DrMidLife's post.

Perhaps I didn't quite emphasize that enough in my OP because I was too busy having flashbacks of wanting to strangle the people in my micro lab (but that's another story).

 

[jl lin]

None of my science courses were offered through the nursing department. They were through the respective science departments, and no, nursing students could not take a watered down science course to meet their major's science prerequisites.

I am absolutely certain that is true for a good number of programs.

And frankly I am annoyed that other nursing programs would host science courses outside of the respective departments. Sure there is a lot in say biology that is more related to other areas of the discipline than what is directly human biology. Some folks think that this makes honing in on say more human biology in a nursing program an advantage in the same way that in (non-vet) medical school you don't waste a lot of time on studying zoology or marine biology.

At any rate, so much of it is the kind of academic snobbery or superiority that comes out of such things.

But I say, just keep the general sciences standardized. For the love of God, they are general, year one and two college courses anyway. So I don't see the need to take Gen Chem I and II or Gen Bio I and II and have them taught under nursing. Plus, it gives people a limited perspective IMHO.

 

[mililani]

No, that's a bad idea. I would do what others advised and go for an advanced degree. Since you have a bio degree, you probably have taken the right general chem, organic chem, bio, physics, and math required for the MCAT. You just need to show maturity by advancing your GPA. Go for a masters in biology. A BSN is a bad idea. The BSN programs I've seen were a joke. I mean, the rigor of their science and math courses were laughable. As an adcom, I would see this as a step backwards. That's not to say a BSN would not be able to get into med school. If I were an adcom and was interviewing someone who initially got a BSN and decided to go to medical school, I would look at their GPA and MCAT scores. If they had great scores and GPA, I would reason that they probably would do well in the hard sciences too. However, strength of schedule is also important. It's like college football rankings. If the BSN had a traditional BSN program schedule, and then took 2 years to complete the MCAT pre-reqs, that would weigh on my decision.

I have family members that are on adcoms. And, lots of my relatives are nurses. My cousins couldn't hack general chem so they went into nursing. Besides, nursing isn't a bad decision. Nurses in the Bay Area can make over six figures starting.

 

[mililani]

None of my science courses were offered through the nursing department. They were through the respective science departments, and no, nursing students could not take a watered down science course to meet their major's science prerequisites.

I am absolutely certain that is true for a good number of programs.

And frankly I am annoyed that other nursing programs would host science courses outside of the respective departments. Sure there is a lot in say biology that is more related to other areas of the discipline than what is directly human biology. Some folks think that this makes honing in on say more human biology in a nursing program an advantage in the same way that in (non-vet) medical school you don't waste a lot of time on studying zoology or marine biology.

At any rate, so much of it is the kind of academic snobbery or superiority that comes out of such things.

But I say, just keep the general sciences standardized. For the love of God, they are general, year one and two college courses anyway. So I don't see the need to take Gen Chem I and II or Gen Bio I and II and have them taught under nursing. Plus, it gives people a limited perspective IMHO.

http://www.drexel.edu/cnhp/nursing/RNBSN_Handbook.pdf

Program requirements at the bottom. Doesn't look much different than the program requirements at the school I went to. The level of rigor is really weak, IMHO. I could do the first 90 credits in my sleep.

 

[jl lin]

http://www.drexel.edu/cnhp/nursing/RNBSN_Handbook.pdf

Program requirements at the bottom. Doesn't look much different than the program requirements at the school I went to. The level of rigor is really weak, IMHO. I could do the first 90 credits in my sleep.

Do you know what happens when you assume? Remember that old saying?


I did not receive my RN college and clinical education through Drexel. LOL

Tsk. Tsk. Tsk. False assumptions lead to faulty conclusions.

And the upper level courses are about writing more to prepare for graduate work and certain kinds research and are managment courses and courses in things impacting nursing and clients and healthcare on a broader level, etc.



Finally, people get out of their education what THEY CHOOSE to put into it.

No one can make you intellectually curious. It has to be there, and it propels you further to continue to grow and learn.



The biggest beef I have with much of our educational system on the post-secondary level is how it breeds some sort of lack of humlilty.

True education should make a person more humble; for the more you learn and grow, the more you see how complex things are--how they are so much bigger than we are in many ways. Genuine EDUCATION should bring the student-person to a place where he or she employs every man, woman, child, insect, mineral, whatever as his or her teacher.

Until you get that, you only get so much "learning," and a piece a paper in a frame.

Real education is about so much more than credentials, a piece of paper, and a sense of entitlement.

 

[dahlmarino]

If a liberal arts major can get into med school, I see no reason why a nursing major couldn't, so long as the med school pre-req's are fulfilled.

 

[Nasrudin]

Do you know what happens when you assume? Remember that old saying?


I did not receive my RN college and clinical education through Drexel. LOL

Tsk. Tsk. Tsk. False assumptions lead to faulty conclusions.

And the upper level courses are about writing more to prepare for graduate work and certain kinds research and are managment courses and courses in things impacting nursing and clients and healthcare on a broader level, etc.



Finally, people get out of their education what THEY CHOOSE to put into it.

No one can make you intellectually curious. It has to be there, and it propels you further to continue to grow and learn.



The biggest beef I have with much of our educational system on the post-secondary level is how it breeds some sort of lack of humlilty.

True education should make a person more humble; for the more you learn and grow, the more you see how complex things are--how they are so much bigger than we are in many ways. Genuine EDUCATION should bring the student-person to a place where he or she employs every man, woman, child, insect, mineral, whatever as his or her teacher.

Until you get that, you only get so much "learning," and a piece a paper in a frame.

Real education is about so much more than credentials, a piece of paper, and a sense of entitlement.

Well. Actually. I couldn't agree more. It's just that there is a bell curve. That says. Dispassionately as Nature. That. Some salmon don't make it up river. Some sperm never make past the labia. Some coconuts never find safe harbor. And never become trees on other islands. Etc.

What common sense says. Is that the sweet spot of the traditional science premed bell curve is more narrow for pure academics. 10,000 applications for 1-2 hundred spots. Like 18 million sperms--is that about right?--for one egg. Means hard measures. Like swimming speed. Will come into play.

Not that there's not more than one way to crack a coconut. But you dig what I'm sayin. Besides your playing both ends of the fiddle. On the one hand sayin Nursing academics is just as rigorous. On the other hand sayin it aint all about the rigor.

Truth is I could care less about any of this. The smartest most interesting people I've met. Were no where near the premed game. Which is in essence. A treadmill for the stubborn and willful. Not field of expression for the brightest of intellect.

 

[jl lin]

Well. Actually. I couldn't agree more. It's just that there is a bell curve. That says. Dispassionately as Nature. That. Some salmon don't make it up river. Some sperm never make past the labia. Some coconuts never find safe harbor. And never become trees on other islands. Etc.

What common sense says. Is that the sweet spot of the traditional science premed bell curve is more narrow for pure academics. 10,000 applications for 1-2 hundred spots. Like 18 million sperms--is that about right?--for one egg. Means hard measures. Like swimming speed. Will come into play.

Not that there's not more than one way to crack a coconut. But you dig what I'm sayin. Besides your playing both ends of the fiddle. On the one hand sayin Nursing academics is just as rigorous. On the other hand sayin it aint all about the rigor.

Truth is I could care less about any of this. The smartest most interesting people I've met. Were no where near the premed game. Which is in essence. A treadmill for the stubborn and willful. Not field of expression for the brightest of intellect.

Not playing both ends, just looking at things in balance. I don't like to be pulled by subjective biases or even objective information used in a biased fashion.

Just as rigorous as what? One program or course in say Inorganic Chem II could be much more rigorous than another even within the same university depending upon the professor. There is this huge relative factor.

In the end I don't lose sleep over it either. I think in academics and in certain circles, there is just a lot of trippin going on, period.

There comes a time for the truly teachable but perhaps slower to learn on this kind of thing where residency, fellowship, or functioning as an attending can and should be quite eye-openning for some. Until then, whatever. . .

 

[mililani]

Do you know what happens when you assume? Remember that old saying?


I did not receive my RN college and clinical education through Drexel. LOL

Tsk. Tsk. Tsk. False assumptions lead to faulty conclusions.

Fair enough. Then where did you do your RN? Let's see the level of "rigor" at your program.

To me, fair amount of rigor would consist of this in the first year:

General Chem I/II
Engineering Physics I/II
Calculus I/II
General Biology I/II
Some humanities courses

I've never seen a nursing program come remotely close to that. The first 2-3 years of nursing is a cakewalk.

Regardless, my point is adcoms look for potential. If you come from a humanities background with straight A's, good MCAT scores, and solid pre-req scores and schedule, I see potential. There isn't anything there that could tell me you reached your limit of potential. ****, you could probably go on to do a physics Ph.D. at Princeton University with the brightest minds. Who knows? However, if you come from a hard sciences background with a ****ty GPA, go to an easier program like nursing and get much better grades, that doesn't tell me anything other than hard sciences is your limit. And if I was an adcom and I see that you have a mediocre limit, I wouldn't accept you. Why do you think GPA is such a huge deal for med school? That and your MCATs preclude any degree you have. Strength of schedule is considered; for example, the number of credits taken per semester is important. If you got a hard degree, even better. You're a shoe in. But, I can't assume you're limited because you did an "easy" degree with great grades and all the other stuff.

Anyways, I still don't recommend doing a BSN. That's only going to hinder your chances of getting in.

 

[Nasrudin]

I ain't really point fingers.

Shoot. I ducked what I could to get my degree and tried to come out lookin pretty.

If I had an easy option. I took it. An old crappy 2.7 aint gonna fix itself.

That said I took the nursing sciences in my sleep. Whilst my colleagues yelped in agony. And decided I would challenge myself to get into medical school.

So big deal for me. Maybe in other places it's the other way around for all I know. Could be. I doubt it. But could be.

If I had a lick of sense as a younger man. I would of had fun AND cooled out with a 3.5 in Spanish. And read from my own syllabus. Taking my time.

Jlin. You got a chip on your shoulder. So do I. Less of one now. Success makes some things like that go better I guess. But that's why it's easy for me to spot.

Just concentrate on getting into medical school. Forget about towing the nursing line.

 

[jl lin]

I ain't really point fingers.

Shoot. I ducked what I could to get my degree and tried to come out lookin pretty.

If I had an easy option. I took it. An old crappy 2.7 aint gonna fix itself.

That said I took the nursing sciences in my sleep. Whilst my colleagues yelped in agony. And decided I would challenge myself to get into medical school.

So big deal for me. Maybe in other places it's the other way around for all I know. Could be. I doubt it. But could be.

If I had a lick of sense as a younger man. I would of had fun AND cooled out with a 3.5 in Spanish. And read from my own syllabus. Taking my time.

Jlin. You got a chip on your shoulder. So do I. Less of one now. Success makes some things like that go better I guess. But that's why it's easy for me to spot.

Just concentrate on getting into medical school. Forget about towing the nursing line.

*smile* No nas. No chip. Just balance. I don't follow crowds when it comes to thinking. I don't get stuck on some agendas.

But agree about one thing. A person should go to school for nursing b/c they want to be a nurse.

You could do liberal arts and get a killer MCAT, same as doing BSN and get a killer MCAT.

People consistently seem to forget that adcoms need to look at the whole picture--the whole file and applicant. Shoot, that is why they schedule interviews. Else they just stick with paper.


My issues are almost always with regard to imbalance and unfair generalizations in thinking Nas. If you get that, you will get me. If not, I guess, Oh well.

PS nothing, and I do mean nothing on any discussion board is truly worth losing sleep over if you have a life. It's humorous to me that some would think otherwise of me all b/c I am for balance in thinking, am passionate, and can type fast--though not without a good amount of typos.

Life is just more real than what goes on a some board. One thing my current profession and life in general has taught me. Life is a vapor man. The struggles of people in real life make what's truly important clear, at least to some number of us.

Had a mom tell me this neurores shared the following with regard to giving her holoprosencephally kid a shunt. His comment was, "What's the point?" The father jump on his throat in record spead. Freaking azzhole resident. One thing is sure. Education doesn't stop some folks from being total imperforate anuses.

If nothing else, the shunt would relieve her pain.

Meanwhile the child has lived for more than a few years now. She laughs and is an entity with her own purpose and being--not defined by some resident's view on life and quality thereof.

Who the f. is anyone to tell some pt or pt's family, "What's the point?" "Screw you dude," I say. Walk a few miles in the mom's and dad's steps and then maybe consider a comment--and I do mean just consider.

If I get a chip on my shoulder Nas, I will tell you that it about crap like that.

Fortunately the attending neurosurgeon recognized his resident was a total azz for that. Yes I have seen my share of imperforate anuses. You will see it, if you haven't already. . .sure enough.

 

[jl lin]

I ain't really point fingers.

Shoot. I ducked what I could to get my degree and tried to come out lookin pretty.

If I had an easy option. I took it. An old crappy 2.7 aint gonna fix itself.

That said I took the nursing sciences in my sleep. Whilst my colleagues yelped in agony. And decided I would challenge myself to get into medical school.

So big deal for me. Maybe in other places it's the other way around for all I know. Could be. I doubt it. But could be.

If I had a lick of sense as a younger man. I would of had fun AND cooled out with a 3.5 in Spanish. And read from my own syllabus. Taking my time.

Jlin. You got a chip on your shoulder. So do I. Less of one now. Success makes some things like that go better I guess. But that's why it's easy for me to spot.

Just concentrate on getting into medical school. Forget about towing the nursing line.

Now Nas, ME? Towing the "nursing line?" That is hilarious. If you only knew how untrue that was. I am not saying I'm against nurses, but I have too many issues with nursing as a 'profession.'


What kind of chip do you have on your shoulder? I don't have it in me to carry unnecessary chips. Just like I am not a jealous or envious kind of person. It's against my general nature. And I have learned that the total cleansing value of forgiveness is a beautiful and freeing thing. Finally, I am not all-beholding to the nursing profession; b/c, well, I don't find it as supportive, unified, and objective in approach as it really should be. But I'm not out to dismiss nursing or hate on it unnecessarily, or undermine valulable work, insights, or marginalize it's role, which is often so much more than meeting basic needs or being holistic or highly proficient in technical things.

Some would say I should be a Libra, b/c of my need to balance things. . .not just equations. But alas, I am a Virgo. Go figure. (Not that I put much stock in such things.)

 

[da Vincis World]

Are most Biology programs known for their rigor?

 

[jeaneous]

BSN education will not prepare you much to become a Dr. The hands on experience would be nice, though. Is this your fallback? If so, that's great if you want to be a nurse. If not, major in something else. Also, you'll have a difficult time getting into any university nursing program with your gpa. When I was accepted to nursing school, it seemed that anything below a 3.5 didn't have a chance. Good luck!

 

[DanielSTK]

even with that gpa you still have a chance, don't let anyone tell you otherwise

 

[mililani]

even with that gpa you still have a chance, don't let anyone tell you otherwise

I didn't realize she didn't even try the MCATs. Yeah, it is still possible to get in with a 2.9. I think my friend had a 3.0 from Harvard with a biology degree and semi-ok MCAT scores finally got into medical school after 1-2 years of trying. You should go for the MCAT and see how you do.

 

[leashBTS]

Hey i finished nursing school 2 years ago and currently working at SICU. I'm doing my pre-requisites for medical school and working full time. I think it's a great advantage for people who go into nursing and become a doctor, because first off, you have hands on experience with the hospital (I can tell you I know alot more about the hospital and how it works and my critical thinking is just great compared to a fresh 3rd year medical student .... they don't know jack). Plus you can get GREAT letters of recommendations from attendings!!! And medical schools can see that yes you were a nurse, and you see how the doctors live and you still want to pursue it, you are determined. At least I KNOW I AM!!! I'm completely working hard and doing well in classes. And NURSING school is tough, for those of you who said it's not tough or considered a bachelors. And nursing school helps develop your critical thinking. And to end this note, those who become nurses first i think are the best doctors because they know what happens on both sides and don't become stuck up like those doctors who think they can talk down to nurses. peace. hope this encourages you. 👍

I am enrolled in Drexel's ACE program (a 2nd degree accelerated program). I'm sitting out a quarter and have had some time to think. I chose the nursing route b/c I want to work in medicine, but felt I was too old to obtain my ultimate goal of becoming a Dr. After some serious thought, I realized that I still have time (I'm 29), but am not sure if I should finish the BSN program or not. I am practically 1/2 way through. Upon completion I will be able to work in the field, gain experience, while prepping for med school. A lot of people have asked me why don't I just stop the program and pursue med school right now, but I am not academically or mentally ready for that so I figured staying in the program would be my best bet. Also, one person told me that when applying to med school they'd ask me why I stopped the BSN program and consider that a lack of commitment. Any thoughts?

 

[jl lin]

I am enrolled in Drexel's ACE program (a 2nd degree accelerated program). I'm sitting out a quarter and have had some time to think. I chose the nursing route b/c I want to work in medicine, but felt I was too old to obtain my ultimate goal of becoming a Dr. After some serious thought, I realized that I still have time (I'm 29), but am not sure if I should finish the BSN program or not. I am practically 1/2 way through. Upon completion I will be able to work in the field, gain experience, while prepping for med school. A lot of people have asked me why don't I just stop the program and pursue med school right now, but I am not academically or mentally ready for that so I figured staying in the program would be my best bet. Also, one person told me that when applying to med school they'd ask me why I stopped the BSN program and consider that a lack of commitment. Any thoughts?

You have to sit down and have a serious discussion with yourself. If you know NOW that you'd like to become a physician, and you already have an undergrad degree, you could take the tuitions dollars and put them into pre-med coursework.

Personally, I honestly think that BSN is OK if you went to it to become a nurse, became a RN, learned and grew, but came to the realization that the practice of nursing may not be enough debth. For me it was the fact that I realized I thought quite differently from many in nursing--not all of course--but many. Physicians around me picked up on this and encouraged me to consider medical school, but with family and such, I didn't feel it was attainable. Truth is that I know in my heart of hearts that I am a physician more than a nurse, and I have loved many aspects of being a nurse.



You really can't bypass the tough face-to-face you have to have with yourself over this.
If you were maybe 3/4s or more along the way, I'd say, "Finish the BSN." And yes, 1/2 of the way is a considerable investment as well. But you do not need the Bachelor's in Nursing to meet med school admissions requirements. If you had no other Bachelor's, than I say finish the BSN first. If you had a less than competitive undergrad GPA, and completing the BSN would pull that up, I'd say complete the BSN.


Don't worry so much about if they might ask you this or that. You only have to be concerned about having a truly honest and compelling reason for pursuing medical school. They could ask any number of questions for which you may not be able to prepare an ideal response.

Figure out what YOU really want and need to do. After that, work on making the very best application package for yourself that you can.

The BSN won't necessarily prepare anyone for medical school. What may give some nurses an edge is the clinical areas and experience and expertise they picked up after years of working as RNs in certain areas.


So look at your whole situation--your undergrad GPA, money issues, how you will go about obtaining and growing your BPCM GPA as well. What do you want, and what is the best way for YOU to get there?

Good luck.