BSN to CRNA vs Applying to Med

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Jyggaswoop

Jyggaswoop

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Hello,

A bit of a background about me. I will earn my BS in Biology from my state school. I applied to dental schools this semester, received 1 interview at Marquette got waitlisted and am waiting to hear back. I had a 3.49 sGPA, 3.4 cumulative 21 DAT (90th percentile) and didn't even receive an interview from my instate school (IU) which only receives ~170 IS applicants a year and has a average 3.4 sGPA and a DAT of 19.8. Because of this BS, I am quite angry and am considering switching to med. My weakness was my volunteering hours; I only had 30. But to not even get an interview I find ridiculous as my scores are quite competitive (an interview and a rejection would have been fine). Anyways, my sGPA as of now because of this spring semester is 3.53 (with a huge upward trend from a 2.4 gpa in freshman year). I am under the opinion medical programs are much more invested in your GPA/MCAT scores than dental schools seemingly seem to be. By the end of next semester, I should be near a 3.59 sGPA. I know average MD gpas are near 3.7/3.8 and DO's are near 3.4-3.6, and feel I can probably get a 509 with my work ethic (I know getting 90th percentile on MCAT is much more difficult than the DAT).

So, if I was to have a 3.6 sGPA, 509-510 MCAT, more volunteering hours, and shadowing hours (which I hope to accumulate throughout the next semester) do you guys think it's worth it to apply to medical programs including DO? I know my MCAT of 509 is probably not enough for MD coupled with my GPA. Getting into DO programs will have a lower specialty yield (but I know you can take the USMLE and do well), and because GPs are competing with NPs now (even though GPs make much more), I feel being admitted to a DO program and going into GP is not as beneficial as what I will describe below:

Another option I was looking into was an accelerated BSN program which some schools in Indiana have 16-21 month programs for. I'm particularly interested in these because of not wasting a year (if I do not get into Marquette- if I do I will probably go to Marquette dental), and for the possibility of going into CRNAs whom make a great salary for much less effort (the GRE is easy) compared to MCAT and Med school.

So because of this, do you think DO into GP and the low possibility of specializing into a good field (am interested in anesthesiology, maybe cardiology) or the BSN/RN to CRNA is worth it?

Any insight will be appreciated.
 
Switching from dentistry to medicine because you feel slighted is a very short-sighted move. Like dental education, medical training is very intense; the difference is that it lasts much longer and involves a lot more post-training uncertainty in a world where you're competing with mid-level providers.

Similarly, switching from a doctoral-level goal to a mid-level one is unwise in my opinion. You'll have greatly reduced autonomy and pay compared to what you can get in most medical specialties.

Before you give up on dentistry so easily, I think you should get together with your pre-professional advisor and see if you can get some insight into what went wrong during this cycle. If there's something amiss in your application, chances are that med schools would also be put off by it. And before you commit to a training pathway that's at least seven years long, make sure you're doing it for the right reasons.
 
I'm confused....so like, what do you want to do with your life? You're all over the map. You're comparing Kiwi, oranges and apples. The scope of practice between those three are VERY different. Different enough that folks like myself dropped the field of nursing to pursue medicine. I agree with the poster above. You need to do some soul searching and figure what exactly it is you want to do.
 
HomeSkool said:
Before you give up on dentistry so easily, I think you should get together with your pre-professional advisor and see if you can get some insight into what went wrong during this cycle.
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Hello, yes I agree with finding out what's wrong about my application. I am calling my state dental school to figure out why I didn't get an interview and hope to build off of that.

AsianPersuasion said:
I'm confused....so like, what do you want to do with your life? You're all over the map. You're comparing Kiwi, oranges and apples. The scope of practice between those three are VERY different. Different enough that folks like myself dropped the field of nursing to pursue medicine. I agree with the poster above. You need to do some soul searching and figure what exactly it is you want to do.
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To be completely honest, I do not have a burning desire for any one career path. I would certainly like to help people, and enjoy the fields and subject of medicine and biology in general (enjoyed physiology and anatomy in my university), and thus am happy whether I am a dentist or MD/DO or CRNA (wouldn't enjoy being a nurse my entire life, though).

Hm, it seems like a CRNA vs DO/MD route is difficulty, and being able to be autonomous as well as the bump in pay grade once its all said and done, at a much bigger risk of potentially not getting in.
 
Jyggaswoop said:
To be completely honest, I do not have a burning desire for any one career path.
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If that's true, then medicine would probably turn into a total disaster for you. The learning curve is very steep, the training is prolonged and punishing, and the day-to-day workload is high even as an attending. You need to really be sure it's where you want to be before you commit that kind of time and blood/sweat/tears.

Jyggaswoop said:
Hm, it seems like a CRNA vs DO/MD route is difficulty, and being able to be autonomous as well as the bump in pay grade once its all said and done, at a much bigger risk of potentially not getting in.
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It all depends on what your priorities are, and you're the only one who can answer that question. I would've been miserable as a mid-level provider with limited autonomy, and I was willing to invest the time and energy to get to the top of the medical food chain. Many other people feel differently and they're not wrong. You do you.
 
HomeSkool said:
If that's true, then medicine would probably turn into a total disaster for you. The learning curve is very steep, the training is prolonged and punishing, and the day-to-day workload is high even as an attending. You need to really be sure it's where you want to be before you commit that kind of time and blood/sweat/tears.


It all depends on what your priorities are, and you're the only one who can answer that question. I would've been miserable as a mid-level provider with limited autonomy, and I was willing to invest the time and energy to get to the top of the medical food chain. Many other people feel differently and they're not wrong. You do you.
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I don't doubt med school is difficult, I have friends in their second years. I have learned to adopt a dedicated work ethic because I knew I had to get my grades up to even do anything since my freshman year of pooping the bed. It would be silly to assume the only people who can succeed in med schools are ones that have always wanted to be doctors since they were born and anyone who doesn't have a burning desire to become one will not succeed.
 
But my other question has yet to be unanswered, and since you are a physician and know about it, I was wondering what you thought about NPs potentially taking over the GP role? Do you think that GP job security is lower because of the advanced role NPs have? or is this just overblown? Because I have probably commit to a DO school if I do go the medical route, I am curious as to what you think.
 
Jyggaswoop said:
It would be silly to assume the only people who can succeed in med schools are ones that have always wanted to be doctors since they were born and anyone who doesn't have a burning desire to become one will not succeed.
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Don't put words in my mouth. I said nothing about lifelong medical goals. As for a "burning desire," that's your term. I've seen multiple semi-committed people wash out at all levels of medical training, and the level of ambivalence you've described puts you at increased risk to join them. I'm not saying you shouldn't go into medicine and I'm not saying you won't succeed at it. I'm saying that you need to make sure it's really where you want to be before devoting so much of your life and money to it. The "burning desire," as you put it, is a big part of what keeps you going when you're working 80-hour weeks and 24+-hour shifts.
 
Jyggaswoop said:
Hello,

A bit of a background about me. I will earn my BS in Biology from my state school. I applied to dental schools this semester, received 1 interview at Marquette got waitlisted and am waiting to hear back. I had a 3.49 sGPA, 3.4 cumulative 21 DAT (90th percentile) and didn't even receive an interview from my instate school (IU) which only receives ~170 IS applicants a year and has a average 3.4 sGPA and a DAT of 19.8. Because of this BS, I am quite angry and am considering switching to med. My weakness was my volunteering hours; I only had 30. But to not even get an interview I find ridiculous as my scores are quite competitive (an interview and a rejection would have been fine). Anyways, my sGPA as of now because of this spring semester is 3.53 (with a huge upward trend from a 2.4 gpa in freshman year). I am under the opinion medical programs are much more invested in your GPA/MCAT scores than dental schools seemingly seem to be. By the end of next semester, I should be near a 3.59 sGPA. I know average MD gpas are near 3.7/3.8 and DO's are near 3.4-3.6, and feel I can probably get a 509 with my work ethic (I know getting 90th percentile on MCAT is much more difficult than the DAT).

So, if I was to have a 3.6 sGPA, 509-510 MCAT, more volunteering hours, and shadowing hours (which I hope to accumulate throughout the next semester) do you guys think it's worth it to apply to medical programs including DO? I know my MCAT of 509 is probably not enough for MD coupled with my GPA. Getting into DO programs will have a lower specialty yield (but I know you can take the USMLE and do well), and because GPs are competing with NPs now (even though GPs make much more), I feel being admitted to a DO program and going into GP is not as beneficial as what I will describe below:

Another option I was looking into was an accelerated BSN program which some schools in Indiana have 16-21 month programs for. I'm particularly interested in these because of not wasting a year (if I do not get into Marquette- if I do I will probably go to Marquette dental), and for the possibility of going into CRNAs whom make a great salary for much less effort (the GRE is easy) compared to MCAT and Med school.

So because of this, do you think DO into GP and the low possibility of specializing into a good field (am interested in anesthesiology, maybe cardiology) or the BSN/RN to CRNA is worth it?

Any insight will be appreciated.
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Would you be ok with a doctor (anesthesiologist) telling you what to do and then carrying out that plan? Or being limited in which procedures you can do because of the practice you join? Because if you go the CRNA route, the chances are good that’s the type of practice model you will end up in.
 
HomeSkool said:
Don't put words in my mouth. I said nothing about lifelong medical goals. As for a "burning desire," that's your term. I've seen multiple semi-committed people wash out at all levels of medical training, and the level of ambivalence you've described puts you at increased risk to join them. I'm not saying you shouldn't go into medicine and I'm not saying you won't succeed at it. I'm saying that you need to make sure it's really where you want to be before devoting so much of your life and money to it. The "burning desire," as you put it, is a big part of what keeps you going when you're working 80-hour weeks and 24+-hour shifts.
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Fair point, I inferred that's what you were trying to say.
Man o War said:
Would you be ok with a doctor (anesthesiologist) telling you what to do and then carrying out that plan? Or being limited in which procedures you can do because of the practice you join? Because the chances are good that’s the type of practice model you will end up in.
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And yes I would, as long as I get paid 170-200k. Also, a lot of hospitals only utilize CRNAs
 
Jyggaswoop said:
Fair point, I inferred that's what you were trying to say.


And yes I would, as long as I get paid 170-200k. Also, a lot of hospitals only utilize CRNAs
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I don’t think those salaries are going to last. I’m already seeing downward pressure on them as CRNAs overproduce graduates.
The vast majority of hospitals require them to be supervised. I realize “lots” is relative, but overall those facilities are not the norm, and typically in areas that are rural.
 
Man o War said:
I don’t think those salaries are going to last. I’m already seeing downward pressure on them as CRNAs overproduce graduates.
The vast majority of hospitals require them to be supervised. I realize “lots” is relative, but overall those facilities are not the norm, and typically in areas that are rural.
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Interesting you say that the salaries are not going to last. Any references?
 
Jyggaswoop said:
Interesting you say that the salaries are not going to last. Any references?
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I’ve worked in 2 major cities and one smaller market in the last 5 years, and their salaries are on the downhill slide or stagnant in all 3. I also network with anesthesiologists across the country who for the most part are seeing the same trend. You have to have this information when you employ CRNAs so you know what to pay them.
 
Man o War said:
I’ve worked in 2 major cities and one smaller market in the last 5 years, and their salaries are on the downhill slide or stagnant in all 3. I also network with anesthesiologists across the country who for the most part are seeing the same trend. You have to have this information when you employ CRNAs so you know what to pay them.
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Interesting, but why is this the case for both CRNAs and anesthesiologists? Is it that because of the large number of CRNAs, they are bringing down the salary for themselves and the anesthesiologists who are "less in demand" and have less to say about their salary? Don't mean to cause a ruckus, I know anesthesiologists are capable of much more than CRNAs, just a thought.
 
Jyggaswoop said:
And yes I would, as long as I get paid 170-200k. Also, a lot of hospitals only utilize CRNAs
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That's very state-dependent, and it's prone to change in both directions. Not the kind of thing you want to bank on if autonomy's important to you.

Most of the CRNAs I works with are outstanding, but they still benefit from the extra breadth and depth of training and experience I bring to the table. In addition, the "MD" after my name means I can throw around weight they don't have, so I get to deal with the more challenging management dilemmas. For the large majority of CRNAs with whom I work, they're happy in their role and have zero interest in taking on the increased responsibility that I have to assume. For me, I like being the point man and team leader, so I'm happy to fight the necessary battles and be the last line of defense when things go sideways. They volunteered for their job and I volunteered for mine, and we're happy in our respective places.

There are about a hundred or so folks in the country who started as CRNAs before doing med school and becoming anesthesiologists. I know two of them personally -- one was an attending in my residency program and the other is my boss. Both of them have said they didn't realize how much they didn't know until they got into med school, at which point they were terrified at having practiced perioperative medicine with those gaps in their knowledge bases. I'm not saying CRNAs aren't great -- I'm saying it's a whole different level of training, authority, and responsibility. Just something to consider as you determine the course you want to pursue.
 
Classic post - I like to help people, but I just haven't yet.

Introspection might bring you a little insight. As for desire, medical school is a real grind, without substantial desire some people lose traction and end up on the side lines.

If you want an easy, ECs not so necessary, path with a career ladder, then apply to nursing school and become a NP while working.

Otherwise, do you like feet?
 
HomeSkool said:
That's very state-dependent, and it's prone to change in both directions. Not the kind of thing you want to bank on if autonomy's important to you.

Most of the CRNAs I works with are outstanding, but they still benefit from the extra breadth and depth of training and experience I bring to the table. In addition, the "MD" after my name means I can throw around weight they don't have, which means I get to deal with the more challenging management dilemmas. For the large majority of CRNAs with whom I work, they're happy in their role and have zero interest in taking on the increased responsibility that I have to assume. For me, I like being the point man and team leader, so I'm happy to fight the necessary battles and be the last line of defense when things go sideways. They volunteered for their job and I volunteered for mine, and we're happy in our respective places.

There are about a hundred or so folks in the country who started as CRNAs before doing med school and becoming anesthesiologists. I know two of them personally -- one was an attending in my residency program and the other is my boss. Both of them have said they didn't realize how much they didn't know until they got into med school, at which point they were terrified at having practiced perioperative medicine with those gaps in their knowledge bases. I'm not saying CRNAs aren't great -- I'm saying it's a whole different level of training, authority, and responsibility. Just something to consider as you determine the course you want to pursue.
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I understand what you're saying, I don't really care about the things you seem to, as long as it gets me a nice pay. I didn't really come from a household that is wealthy, and the prospective of making 150-200, albeit for the rest of your career, is a sweet deal (with the amount of work you put in respective to dental/med).
 
Jyggaswoop said:
I understand what you're saying, I don't really care about the things you seem to, as long as it gets me a nice pay. I didn't really come from a household that is wealthy, and the prospective of making 150-200, albeit for the rest of your career, is a sweet deal (with the amount of work you put in respective to dental/med).
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Like I said, you do you, man.
 
LibBum said:
Classic post - I like to help people, but I just haven't yet.

Introspection might bring you a little insight. As for desire, medical school is a real grind, without substantial desire some people lose traction and end up on the side lines.

If you want an easy, ECs not so necessary, path with a career ladder, then apply to nursing school and become a NP while working.

Otherwise, do you like feet?
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There's no need for introspection. I want a career in health care that's well paying and at the same time have the ability to help people. That's why everyone goes MD anyways, or else we would all be nurses. And, I stated I don't want to be a nurse my entire life, just as a stepping stone into CRNA. Of course I know medical school is a grind, but at the same time weighing my options
LibBum said:
Classic post - I like to help people, but I just haven't yet.

Introspection might bring you a little insight. As for desire, medical school is a real grind, without substantial desire some people lose traction and end up on the side lines.

If you want an easy, ECs not so necessary, path with a career ladder, then apply to nursing school and become a NP while working.

Otherwise, do you like feet?
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Yes, I apologize I get tired of serving food at the food kitchen all the time. I have volunteered other ways (science clubs at my university etc.) And, no I don't want to be a nurse my entire life, I was just asking for the pros and cons of potentially going to a DO school and becoming a GP vs a CRNA.
 
Jyggaswoop said:
I want a career in health care that's well paying and at the same time have the ability to help people. That's why everyone goes MD anyways, or else we would all be nurses.
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Not so. Nurses and doctors have incredibly different training, roles, responsibilities, privileges, and even approaches to patient care. I have no interest whatsoever in the role of a nurse regardless of the pay. And most nurses I know consider my responsibilities more trouble that the paycheck is worth.
 
Jyggaswoop said:
Interesting, but why is this the case for both CRNAs and anesthesiologists? Is it that because of the large number of CRNAs, they are bringing down the salary for themselves and the anesthesiologists who are "less in demand" and have less to say about their salary? Don't mean to cause a ruckus, I know anesthesiologists are capable of much more than CRNAs, just a thought.
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No, when I said anesthesiologists across the country seeing the same trend, I meant about CRNA salaries.
This decision is very dependent upon your desires. My #1 thing is I like having options- I don’t want to be boxed into a rural hospital or having my practice limited. You may think that doesn’t matter to you now, but I think this is why there are many militant/salty CRNA types. Don’t make this choice based on salary, there are plenty of folks out there who think CRNAs will eventually fall to salary levels of other advanced practice nurses, 100k or so. Same applies if you end up going the MD/DO route- don’t pick a specialty based on money; that could all change during the course of your career.
 
AsianPersuasion said:
From someone who's been a nurse and is now in med school, med school is way too stressful and ulcer-induced to be doing it because of money.
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I realize that it's difficult. I have a friend who I don't see because he's studying for the USMLE right now because it's his second year of med school. Let me be clear, he's doing medicine because of the money. He wants to specialize in orthopedic surgery and he has told me it's because of the money. A dentist I shadowed said you pay now or you pay later, and this mentality is something I see in many pre-meds and people I know in med school. I don't want to state that that's why EVERYONE decides to go into med, and that the income potential is what gets them through med, but you can't argue it's a huge factor.
 
AsianPersuasion said:
From someone who's been a nurse and is now in med school, med school is way too stressful and ulcer-induced to be doing it because of money.
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I just saw a thread started by a anesthesiologist in 2011 as I was looking into this more celebrating how the AANA shot themselves in the foot and the wage of CRNAs will drop greatly because of the numerous schools 'pumping out CRNAs' and oversaturating the market. He was celebrating because he thought Anesthesiology salary would go down because of it. Is he a hard worker?? of course, he's a freaking anesthesiologist, but you can't tell me that one of the major reasons he decided to go into it was salary
 
Jyggaswoop said:
I just saw a thread started by a anesthesiologist in 2011 as I was looking into this more celebrating how the AANA shot themselves in the foot and the wage of CRNAs will drop greatly because of the numerous schools 'pumping out CRNAs' and oversaturating the market. He was celebrating because he thought Anesthesiology salary would go down because of it. Is he a hard worker?? of course, he's a freaking anesthesiologist, but you can't tell me that one of the major reasons he decided to go into it was salary
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or that's not a reason he 'survived'
 
I'm not even going to bother addressing all of the other things wrong with this post (like your reasons for wanting to go to med school). You do realize that DOs aren't locked into "GP", right? I mean, I agree that anyone going to med school should be okay with the possibility of ending up in family med or the likes, because you never know what your scores will be/how you will do, but that applies to both MD and DO students.

Either way, I don't think you should go to med school because you'll likely burn out. If you want a high paying job and don't actually care what you're doing, do something easier.
 
You do realize if you become a CRNA, you'd still be a nurse for the rest of your life?

Anyway, oversaturation of CRNA's will bring down salaries. Same thing is happening in the pharmacy field.

Don't go into medicine for the money. You take on a ton of debt and it takes years to make a decent salary. Everyone wants ortho and derm "for the money". Guess what? A vast majority don't get there as they're hypercompetitive.

And what @fldoctorgirl is correct, DOs are not destined for a life as a GP. DO's can match into ortho as well.

Do your research. Shadow. Find out what happened with your dental app.
 
I work with both CRNA and AA(anesthesia assistant). The more I learned about AA, the more plausible I recommend it to aspiring students.

I used to think AA are for students who can't get into MD or DO schools. I came to realize that is not true.

I teach anesthesia resident, student nurse anesthetist, student AA. I get to know their credential pretty well.

SOME of the AA students could have got into medical schools with their credentials. They chose it because the time involved is shorter and the financial out look all right (starting 140k working 40 hours).

Some of our hired AA work on 3-4 jobs, filling up his working hours. I am pretty sure he is earning 200's. That is pretty good for a 25 year old.

Don't laugh at them. Some of them are hard working, determined. Come age 50, they will be just fulfilled in their career as many MD anesthesiologists and CRNA's .

For cry out loud, I drove one of AA's BMW M(6?) last week. "Push it", my AA colleague asked me. I obliged, pushed it, and that thing went up to 160 on headup windshield display !! I am 55, worked in medicine for awhile. But never had the time nor the means to really enjoy like those young guys.

Now my career is closer to sunset. I have no qualm telling students that there are many, many fulfilling pathways you can take. Don't let others tell you, it is "best" to do MD not DO, physicians not nurses, CRNA not floor nurses, nurse not OR tech, etc etc. Put your hearts into your career, you can have a fulfilling time, anywhere.
 
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Sounds to me like you just picked the highest paying professions. Find something you really do enjoy and stick to it. Get volunteering and clinical/shadowing in..
 
Words to the wise.

OP, are you trying to convince us you want to be a doctor, or yourself?

Because I would have simply decided to be a physician without the slightest care in the world what people on a forums think -- albeit many with good advice.

Instead of starting my trek with "should I become a physician", I just decided to pursue because I knew I wanted to without too much question.
 
Jyggaswoop said:
Hello,

A bit of a background about me. I will earn my BS in Biology from my state school. I applied to dental schools this semester, received 1 interview at Marquette got waitlisted and am waiting to hear back. I had a 3.49 sGPA, 3.4 cumulative 21 DAT (90th percentile) and didn't even receive an interview from my instate school (IU) which only receives ~170 IS applicants a year and has a average 3.4 sGPA and a DAT of 19.8. Because of this BS, I am quite angry and am considering switching to med. My weakness was my volunteering hours; I only had 30. But to not even get an interview I find ridiculous as my scores are quite competitive (an interview and a rejection would have been fine). Anyways, my sGPA as of now because of this spring semester is 3.53 (with a huge upward trend from a 2.4 gpa in freshman year). I am under the opinion medical programs are much more invested in your GPA/MCAT scores than dental schools seemingly seem to be. By the end of next semester, I should be near a 3.59 sGPA. I know average MD gpas are near 3.7/3.8 and DO's are near 3.4-3.6, and feel I can probably get a 509 with my work ethic (I know getting 90th percentile on MCAT is much more difficult than the DAT).
Click to expand...

A career in DDS, as in Medicine, is not a reward for having good grades or being a good student. It's a privilege.

You know what your weakness is, so fix it.
 
I think its ok to be upset if you work hard for years and earn "the numbers" and don't make it, but you need to be resilient and continue to work towards your goal. Also you need to control those feelings and not rant about how you are owed a seat etc. etc.
 
Goro said:
A career in DDS, as in Medicine, is not a reward for having good grades or being a good student. It's a privilege.
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I keep reading this banter about the privilege of being a doctor, and it quite honestly has me perplexed. At the end of the day, being a doctor is a job. If doctors were not being payed [good] money to do what they do, many would not show up to work tomorrow. And this is also the first time that I have seen dentistry lumped in with the "privilege" of medicine.

Are these important jobs?

Yes.

Is it a privilege to be a doctor or dentist?

I'm not quite sure why a hard-working student who earns his keep as a doctor or dentist should be considered privileged. It almost seems like some type of psychological protection mechanism that doctors use to shield themselves from the less desirable parts of their job. "Yes, working a 24 hour shift is provably dangerous to my mental and physical health, BUT that's OK because it is a privilege to do this."

To be perfectly clear, this isn't a criticism of you personally. This is something that I have observed from the outside about the medical community, specifically doctors in general, and I find the psychology behind it rather interesting. I'm guessing the ideation of physician privilege was passed on to you at some point during your socialization as a doctor. I'm curious regarding the origins of these thought patterns and if they are unique to the United States or not.
 
Suprachiasmatik said:
I keep reading this banter about the privilege of being a doctor, and it quite honestly has me perplexed. At the end of the day, being a doctor is a job. If doctors were not being payed [good] money to do what they do, many would not show up to work tomorrow. And this is also the first time that I have seen dentistry lumped in with the "privilege" of medicine.

Are these important jobs?

Yes.

Is it a privilege to be a doctor or dentist?

I'm not quite sure why a hard-working student who earns his keep as a doctor or dentist should be considered privileged. It almost seems like some type of psychological protection mechanism that doctors use to shield themselves from the less desirable parts of their job. "Yes, working a 24 hour shift is provably dangerous to my mental and physical health, BUT that's OK because it is a privilege to do this."

To be perfectly clear, this isn't a criticism of you personally. This is something that I have observed from the outside about the medical community, specifically doctors in general, and I find the psychology behind it rather interesting. I'm guessing the ideation of physician privilege was passed on to you at some point during your socialization as a doctor. I'm curious regarding the origins of these thought patterns and if they are unique to the United States or not.
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Many of my friends work medical missions, literally *spending* their money to go have the privilege of being healthcare professionals.... So how would you explain that?
 
Suprachiasmatik said:
I keep reading this banter about the privilege of being a doctor, and it quite honestly has me perplexed. At the end of the day, being a doctor is a job. If doctors were not being payed [good] money to do what they do, many would not show up to work tomorrow. And this is also the first time that I have seen dentistry lumped in with the "privilege" of medicine.

Are these important jobs?

Yes.

Is it a privilege to be a doctor or dentist?

I'm not quite sure why a hard-working student who earns his keep as a doctor or dentist should be considered privileged. It almost seems like some type of psychological protection mechanism that doctors use to shield themselves from the less desirable parts of their job. "Yes, working a 24 hour shift is provably dangerous to my mental and physical health, BUT that's OK because it is a privilege to do this."

To be perfectly clear, this isn't a criticism of you personally. This is something that I have observed from the outside about the medical community, specifically doctors in general, and I find the psychology behind it rather interesting. I'm guessing the ideation of physician privilege was passed on to you at some point during your socialization as a doctor. I'm curious regarding the origins of these thought patterns and if they are unique to the United States or not.
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But medicine is a calling because we get paid to help people!!!

...Right there with you. Quite sure this is why residency was so horrible for so long... it's a calling, so take the crappy shifts and lack of sleep and deal with it because you're lucky to be here! It's a privilege! It's disgusting, honestly. Medicine being a privilege/calling is absolutely an excuse to take advantage of people.

Nursing suffers the same attitudes, but it's way more insidious there IMO because at least after residency/fellowship, a physician will make very good money. Nurses are all, "Oh, we're so short staffed... we were short before but now we're critically low after the last round of layoffs to save the hospital money... I have an unsafe patient assignment... oh, my hospital's been on a wage freeze for many years so I've never had a raise at all... but I've just always been called to do nursing and it's a privilege to help people on their worst days so everything is okay!"

Pretty sure the only people that benefit from healthcare positions being looked at as a privilege are hospital administrators. They get to pay fewer people to work themselves to death and not have to hire additional staff, because it's a privilege for their staff to be there.
 
calivianya said:
But medicine is a calling because we get paid to help people!!!

...Right there with you. Quite sure this is why residency was so horrible for so long... it's a calling, so take the crappy shifts and lack of sleep and deal with it because you're lucky to be here! It's a privilege! It's disgusting, honestly. Medicine being a privilege/calling is absolutely an excuse to take advantage of people.

Nursing suffers the same attitudes, but it's way more insidious there IMO because at least after residency/fellowship, a physician will make very good money. Nurses are all, "Oh, we're so short staffed... we were short before but now we're critically low after the last round of layoffs to save the hospital money... I have an unsafe patient assignment... oh, my hospital's been on a wage freeze for many years so I've never had a raise at all... but I've just always been called to do nursing and it's a privilege to help people on their worst days so everything is okay!"

Pretty sure the only people that benefit from healthcare positions being looked at as a privilege are hospital administrators. They get to pay fewer people to work themselves to death and not have to hire additional staff, because it's a privilege for their staff to be there.
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Nursing IS a calling.

Nurses also advocate for safe staffing/positive healthcare reform etc.

It is possible for there to be both lines of thinking........


Think about being an artist. Talk about a calling. You can pour years into it and not make much money at all. But when you take a freelance contract, you can accept the money in the contract while still being true to your calling as an artist, right?
 
RNthenDoc said:
Yes, many doctors don’t volunteer. But many do.

So my question remains.
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I think most people who volunteer, volunteer in something they know how to do. I don't think that necessarily makes it a privilege to do that particular action. I wouldn't say it's a privilege for someone who works as a chef to cook dinner at a soup kitchen, as an example, even if the chef spent money and bought all of the ingredients as well as cooking the meal himself.
 
RNthenDoc said:
Nursing IS a calling.

Nurses also advocate for safe staffing/positive healthcare reform etc.

It is possible for there to be both lines of thinking........


Think about being an artist. Talk about a calling. You can pour years into it and not make much money at all. But when you take a freelance contract, you can accept the money in the contract while still being true to your calling as an artist, right?
Click to expand...

I agree. Which is why I left nursing school as a junior.
 
Suprachiasmatik said:
I keep reading this banter about the privilege of being a doctor, and it quite honestly has me perplexed. At the end of the day, being a doctor is a job. If doctors were not being payed [good] money to do what they do, many would not show up to work tomorrow. And this is also the first time that I have seen dentistry lumped in with the "privilege" of medicine.

Are these important jobs?

Yes.

Is it a privilege to be a doctor or dentist?

I'm not quite sure why a hard-working student who earns his keep as a doctor or dentist should be considered privileged. It almost seems like some type of psychological protection mechanism that doctors use to shield themselves from the less desirable parts of their job. "Yes, working a 24 hour shift is provably dangerous to my mental and physical health, BUT that's OK because it is a privilege to do this."

To be perfectly clear, this isn't a criticism of you personally. This is something that I have observed from the outside about the medical community, specifically doctors in general, and I find the psychology behind it rather interesting. I'm guessing the ideation of physician privilege was passed on to you at some point during your socialization as a doctor. I'm curious regarding the origins of these thought patterns and if they are unique to the United States or not.
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In my opinion, privilege in the sense that not everyone has the opportunity to do it. Privilege in the sense that it isn’t a reward for getting good grades. It must be earned. So many people (talk to any pre-med’s family...) think because Johnny has great grades he will have no problem getting into medical school. 60% never get an interview.

This is just my take. But with that, this applies to all fields out there, not everyone is cut out for it and not everyone gets to do it.
 
RNthenDoc said:
Yes, many doctors don’t volunteer. But many do.

So my question remains.
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I said many doctors would not continue to work without being [well] compensated. I believe that the answer to your question regarding your friends who work for free is implied in the research I linked, but I can state it in my own words: according to the data, your friends are not representative of the average physician.
 
Suprachiasmatik said:
I keep reading this banter about the privilege of being a doctor, and it quite honestly has me perplexed. At the end of the day, being a doctor is a job. If doctors were not being payed [good] money to do what they do, many would not show up to work tomorrow. And this is also the first time that I have seen dentistry lumped in with the "privilege" of medicine.

Are these important jobs?

Yes.

Is it a privilege to be a doctor or dentist?

I'm not quite sure why a hard-working student who earns his keep as a doctor or dentist should be considered privileged. It almost seems like some type of psychological protection mechanism that doctors use to shield themselves from the less desirable parts of their job. "Yes, working a 24 hour shift is provably dangerous to my mental and physical health, BUT that's OK because it is a privilege to do this."

To be perfectly clear, this isn't a criticism of you personally. This is something that I have observed from the outside about the medical community, specifically doctors in general, and I find the psychology behind it rather interesting. I'm guessing the ideation of physician privilege was passed on to you at some point during your socialization as a doctor. I'm curious regarding the origins of these thought patterns and if they are unique to the United States or not.
Click to expand...
This is one of those situations where if I have to explain it, then you're simply not going to understand it. Being a doctor is not merely a job. One doesn't go through eight years of schooling plus 305 years of residency for a job. Ditto whatever the requirements for DDS are.

I think my learned colleagues @gyngyn and @HomeSkool can explain this far better than I can.
 
Goro said:
This is one of those situations where if I have to explain it, then you're simply not going to understand it. Being a doctor is not merely a job. One doesn't go through eight years of schooling plus 305 years of residency for a job. Ditto whatever the requirements for DDS are.

I think my learned colleagues @gyngyn and @HomeSkool can explain this far better than I can.
Click to expand...
Residency is, by definition, a job. A resident trades his time and labor for money. The tradeoff may indeed be inequitable, but it is an employment agreement nonetheless.

A resident is analogous to a junior partner at a law firm or a junior programmer at a technology firm. These individuals also trade their time and labor for money and may also work many hours and be on call. And, much like residents, there is the hope and expectation that a more equitable agreement regarding this trade of time/labor for money will be reached as more experience is accumulated by the junior employee. Unfortunately, in many industries, this expectation/hope may not be realized to the extent that it is in medicine.
 
Suprachiasmatik said:
Residency is, by definition, a job. A resident trades his time and labor for money. The tradeoff may indeed be inequitable, but it is an employment agreement nonetheless.

A resident is analogous to a junior partner at a law firm or a junior programmer at a technology firm. These individuals also trade their time and labor for money and may also work many hours and be on call. And, much like residents, there is the hope and expectation that a more equitable agreement regarding this trade of time/labor for money will be reached as more experience is accumulated by the junior employee. Unfortunately, in many industries, this expectation/hope may not be realized to the extent that it is in medicine.
Click to expand...
Your analogies are good but not perfect. In reality, residency is a training period during which new physicians practice under the supervision of fully-trained, independently-functioning attendings to obtain the skills necessary for unsupervised medical practice. There are a couple things that make residency different from those other lines of work, though.

1. Residents and attendings must deal with the fact that faulty decision-making on their part could cause grievous injury or death to another human being. That's not something that junior lawyers or software developers have to deal with.
2. Residents and attendings must try to keep pace with a field in which new knowledge is being discovered much more quickly than in law or even technology.
3. Residents and attendings often juggle more simultaneous tasks and decision trees than nearly any other type of professional.
4. Residents and attendings often work under more internal and external production pressure than any other type of professional. For example, in November 2016 I took a sick day -- my first one since George W. Bush was still president. I've worked twice while dragging my own IV pole along with me. (As an aside, it's incredible how many nonsense complaints from patients and nurses instantly evaporate as soon as they realize the doctor is sicker than they are.)

I say none of this to disparage the other professionals who work incredibly hard at their professions. But don't be so quick to say "residency is just a job." That's true, but it's grossly oversimplifying things. If the only thing calling you to medicine is the money, you could get a better return on investment in many other fields.
 
Suprachiasmatik said:
What position in health informatics?

I know people working in healthcare IT, and they barely make 1/4 the salary of a physician.
Click to expand...

Software development, product sales, even go-live launches can net you a six figure salary.

I’m talking about working for EPIC, Cerberus, MediTech etc, not for a small hospital’s IT department (although the latter may have a better QOL).
 
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