Bu???

[koonafa]

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hey guys, i was wondering if anyone could comment on BU's program?
good training, good fellowships, malignancy, etc???? Thanks.

 

[pintsized]

..

 

[MISTERshortcoat]

Hello there, are we talking about Boston U, Baylor, or somewhere else?

 

[pulmonarybear]

I don't know if the above post is concerning Boston University or another "BU" school. I am a student at Boston University, and very much disagree with the above remarks and would like to correct them although I am not going into internal medicine. Some students at Boston University do their Internal Medicine clerkship with BU residents and some with Harvard residents. Basically, what I have heard many times before, which I am posting here because it is similar to what I have observed, is that there is a fundamental different between the teaching style at Boston University, and other more academically oriented programs like through Harvard.

1. At the BU internal medicine residency program they basically throw as many patients at you as you as possible, many 4th years coming to interview at our program already know this and ask about the work load. Time to rest and digest is less of a priority at BU, although they like to brag that they are a "Boston" residency, they are really much lower academically than many many other residency programs in the US. From my third year clerkship I noticed that the because the program is so large, attendings would often cutdown residents that they worked with because they work in an ambulatory clinic 10 months out of the year and will never see the resident again. AND you work with many different attendings, sometimes changing teams every 2.5 weeks! Personally I would find this stressful being moved around to different teams so frequently, but they said that they were going to change this. Some of the attendings are nice, but many are almost apathetic and have little passion for their choosen profession. Personally, I would never want to do a residency at Boston University. The residents I was with never did much teaching, but more or less complained (perhaps rightly so) about the high patient volume and the endless paperwork they were forced to do. I would take the above comment with a grain of salt about BU workload and comraderie . . . I have been told that at BU they torture their students and residents.

2. From a student's perspective, the residents from Harvard affiliated programs are much more relaxed, get a better education, and are more into teaching. They want their residents to actually enjoy their time in the hospital and make it comfortable for them in everyway. If I were aiming for internal medicine that is where I would want to go. If you are somewhere where they treat you with more dignity and are more interested in teaching then if you enjoy that type of environment you will be more likely to get the fellowship of your choice in the end I think.

Just my 2 cents! Obviously I am posting this anonymously!

 

[germanIMG]

without getting into a public dispute, the above post is mostly nonsense..I am currently at BMC..anyone interested can PM me...
Overall BU is obviously not BWH or MGH and does not want to...it is a strong clinical program with a very much city hospital-type Pt. clientel by in large.
Teaching, as everywhere, has a large interpersonal variablity....however, for the most part teaching at BU is very strong....especially in cards or Pulm/CC on the ICU..but also on the floors.
Faculty is very approachable, partly as there is a selection of people who like to work at BMC in the sense of its overall dedication to serve the underserved..whether that is your cup of tea or not remains a separate question.
Workload is high, but is high at any top inner city program, however you have caps that protect you. Overall the consensus is, that BMC trains you very well clinically as well as to be efficient, it certainly does not have the ivory tower academic evironment, where upon admitting a patient, the first thing you can do is to go to the libary and read up.
then again, my personal feeling, with uptodate available as an instant first resource, that is not such an issue anymore.
Particularly Cards, GI and Pulm/CC are exeptional at BU, as reflected in the quality of attendings and fellows who do a lot of teaching....and they are for the most part Harvard trained....
as an academic institution BU is probably more active then it may seem as a resident, as one of the deficits of the training program indeed is a lack of elective time in intern year and lack of an institutionalized effort to push residents to do research.
Again, those who are interested, have done research...and so this may just be a reflection of the people who go for residency to BU, there are less academic interested then clinically interested residents then say at BWH....however again, those who want to, have done and can do so...and the felllowship match list speaks for itself.....which in the edn is probably more accurate an assesment of the quality of training at BMC then the myopic view of a student who does not want to go into IM yet knows how BU compares overall to other programs in the country...;-)

As for torturing us residents....the leadership of this program is as supportive and approachable as I can imagine and I am having a heck of a time here at BU...and masochism is certainly none of my personality traits

the above student may have his/her personal reasons...overall a significant number of BU students match at BU, there are currently something like 7-8 BU students in intern class and most of them had interviews at other very strong programs and ranked BU higher for their respective reasons, but from what I have gathered, mostly because they liked the overall atmosphere and Patient population....again, that can cut either way, you have to find out for yourself if this challenging, sometimes frustrating, disenfrechized, inner city population is your thing.
I can only tell you that there is a lot of gratitude and pride in the service BMC provides to these people....something that besides other things matters to me as well... and I am probably as academic oriented as it gets..

cheers

 

[pulmonarybear]

In regards to the post above:

1. It is obvious that the BU maxim: See someone be mean to someone, be mean to someone, teach someone to be mean to someone is true as apparently I am just a "myopic" med student. I may not be as "academically oriented as it gets" but I plan to do significant teaching and research so I evaluate what I see from a different perspective i.e. what are they doing well and not so well.
2. I view myself as being very dedicated to serving underserved patients, the population of BU itself is not that much different than many hospital in general, i.e. in my mind BU does not set itself apart by specially serving poor people, especially since they are well re-embursed via the free care pool. It is just the attitude at BU that "we take care of the patients that no one else will take etc . . . we are really tough!" just serves to cut other hospitals down, when in fact most if not all hospitals allow residents to treat patients from different socioeconomic and cultural backgrounds with empathy & sensitivity. Personally, I have heard residents and attendings make snide comments about patients from lower socioeconomic and cultural backgrounds.
3. I think prospective residents should evaluate a program by how well they teach, what research is available, how many different variety of cases they see, and the case load which should be a good number, and if you would be happy in that geographic area. BU has *thinks* it has a name being a "Boston residency" and looks down at other hospitals/programs that aren't at the "city hospital", but I think that the actual substance in terms of humane treatment of residents and good teaching and time to digest and rest is lacking, making BU not one of the programs in the top half of IM in the country.

 

[phllystyl]

wow this has turned into quite the flame war.

Having interviewed at BU, spoken with several Temple Alumni that are residents there, and worked with a fellow who is now at pretty prestigious fellowship from the BMC, I have been nothing but impressed with the program and what it has to offer. I didnt feel anyone had a significant chip on their shoulder about being a "boston program" and it seemed as if most residents I spoke with on my interview day were pretty happy.

And I have to agree with germanIMG, that match list does speak for itself, and it speaks much more loudly than someone trolling this thread.

 

[irlandesa]

I interviewed at BU when I was applying and felt the training and patient diversity would be excellent. Most of the residents I met there seemed pretty happy as well, and the fellowship matches were solid. That said, as someone who went to med school in Boston, ALL of the programs and schools, BU included, do tend to get overwhelmingly caught up in competing against each other for money and prestige. I love the city of Boston, and had some great rotations at Tufts (not so much at NEMC, but our other affiliates), but the system there is unbelieveably heirarchical at times. Some people do great in that kind of environment, but not me. I also agree with pulmonary bear that BU is certainly not the only program that is especially strong helping the underserved or inner-city or immigrant populations; I think programs in cities less well off than Boston do just as well in that respect..

 

[germanIMG]

In regards to the post above:

1. It is obvious that the BU maxim: See someone be mean to someone, be mean to someone, teach someone to be mean to someone is true as apparently I am just a "myopic" med student. I may not be as "academically oriented as it gets" but I plan to do significant teaching and research so I evaluate what I see from a different perspective i.e. what are they doing well and not so well.

"myopic" because all you can really comment on is BU, possibly BWH and BI by osmosis, as you may have rotated through the VA or even done an outside rotation...AND?....one of the advantages of the interview trail is to find out more about other programs and how they compare to your home institution.
Most large academic programs I interviewed at had similar caps and workload, some had overnight calls, others like BU had some elaborate call schedule system to circumvent ON calls, BU in no way stands out, some of the strongest programs in this country work their interns much harde, Pt population is not nessesary always comparable...BIDMC and BU certainly differ in their pt population as does the degree of autonomy/attending involvement...for better or worse. In general, this is more an individulual choice of taste then a real quality difference in training. The VA in that regard provides a great comparison....anyway, if you value research so much, you should know, that there are 387 IM programs, placing BU in the lower bottom would mean you are able to name 194 better programs...;-) start counting
this discussion is somewhat pointless, as you obviously do not like BU...which again, you may have your reasons...however,your general conclusions may be somewhat more emotional then rational...again, if BU is such a desastrous program, how come all these people match at BWH (the last 2 consecutive years 2 in GI), UCLA, DUKE, UPENN, UChic,Columbia, NYU, MAYO and so forth in GI, CARDS or Pulm, for Hem/Onc the last 3 residents I know off went to MDAnderson, Columbia, and UChic....despite the fact that Hem/Onc at BU is not as strong as say Cards..
and I personally do not know a single intern/resident who is unhappy at BU...as a matter of fact, most are very happy and enjoy despite the workload...partly because half way through intern year, you realize how much more efficient and proficient you have become

and only to prevent another of your comical assertions: this reply is not ment to slam you...it is, as was the prevous, just meant to correct statements you made about BU, which I happen to believe are so far off the reality, i felt they needed a counter statement

 

[darkmatter]

I agree with GermanIMG, BU has impressive fellowship placement and it's only going to get better. NIH funding has considerably increased, the new infectious disease and cancer centers are up and coming. It's true that there is a high patient load, but you get to become efficient and confident in what you do. I half agree with pulmonary bear, but here's my view at at the VA where BI, Brigham and BU interns rotate. The attendings tend to depend on the BU resident more simply because they are more experienced in doing procedures and codes. Although I would admit, the folks at Brigham are pretty smart when it comes to the literature, but in the grand scheme of things (I may be skewed since I've only seen one group), BU and Brigham interns are about equal in performance and confidence. Of course, I would prefer Brigham over BU just because of the name. I love BI, in fact I would say their fellowship placement is slightly better than BUs with regards to GI and Cards in the past 3 years, and I mean slightly, check the fellowship placements in their respective websites, but the BI interns tend to be less adept at handling clinical situations. Perhaps it is my myopic view, but I would agree that they are a lax program, and the BI intern that I worked with did admit about being spoonfed and less autonomous. That said, most people who preferred BI over BU was because of it being a solid program yet a gentle program it's true for a lot of applicants who want to do prelims, ambulatory or wants something more cush. However, in terms of learning, you will be forced to learn, and really appreciate the style of learning at BU, and without your knowing it, be very competent. In general, while MGH and BWH are reputedly better than BU, I would say BU and BI are about equal when laying the cards down on the table, but the thing that people probably don't know about is the fact that BU has the potential to become an elite program in the immediate future. Noticeably BU is a rich school (why tuition is pretty high is beyond me, oh well) and an aggressive one as well, always looking to expand, get more grants in, and more. I couldn't say much about Tufts, but I always hear down the interview trail how the school in general is struggling. Maybe someone can shed light about the Tufts program.

 

[Bobblehead]

2. I view myself as being very dedicated to serving underserved patients, the population of BU itself is not that much different than many hospital in general, i.e. in my mind BU does not set itself apart by specially serving poor people, especially since they are well re-embursed via the free care pool.

There's a significant difference between hospital reimbursement and physician reimbursement via the free care pool. It affects the ability of academic physicians at BU to provide their own salary support via clinical work (i.e. not usually feasible). That of course produces a ripple effect all the way down the line.