Burn CD's for a Classmate????

[Paws]

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I was asked twice by the same classmate, if I would burn the textbook cd's for him. He had bought the books second hand and didn't have the cd's. The first time I was sort of ok with it (but I didn't do it yet) but the second time, I hemmed and hawed and he basically got the message "no". So maybe my new classsmate will not like me from now on - but the question is: what would other people do?

It's an ethics question, because that would be ripping off the company, but it's also an exploitation question because he would also be ripping me off. He's not my friend or anything.

Other people have these sorts of situations in school? My feeling is I coughed up the dough to buy all these books new, and I'm not likely to just share the wealth with someone who's too cheap to buy the actual text. 🙄

 

[phosphorylation]

you did the right thing. Do not feel guilty about it. You did not lose someone in your class. someone lost you. If he doesn't see you capable to be his friend (not sure how it is) because you didn't pirate software for him, screw him🙂

 

[DrMom]

Even without the ethics issue, you don't owe him a CD.

 

[chapinsita]

My feeling is I coughed up the dough to buy all these books new, and I'm not likely to just share the wealth with someone who's too cheap to buy the actual text. 🙄

Ouch - that's pretty harsh! "Too cheap"??? Do you know this for a fact, did you see his bank account statement with tons of money available, yet he still buys the books used?

I think that there are a million other reasons why your classmate may have needed to buy the books used and without the CD. You have no obligation to pirate the CD for him, but I think it would have been a nice gesture to help a fellow classmate. Personally, I would have done it. But your opinion is different, and that is completely ok. However, I don't think you should make a comment like that when you don't know the whole story.

Reminds me of a time I was shadowing an attending at a county hospital. The resident declared that a patient was "non-compliant" because she was not taking the medications she had been asked to take. The attending then pulled the resident aside and told him too be careful about labeling people like that. This patient was a single mom who had 7 kids(4 children of her own, along with 3 from her "dead-beat dad" brother). It's not that she didn't want to take the medications, she just couldn't afford them. Be careful about making assumptions!

 

[wends]

i would've done it.....its not that big of a deal and if i were in the same situation i would want someone to do me a favor....if you were too lazy then fine, but i would judge the classmate for not having a cd and wanting a bootleg copy.....

we're all classmates and need help/favor at one time or another.....this isnt premed anymore....you've made it, no more eliminations! maybe im just different but i dont mind sharing notes/burning cds for classmates

 

[dara678]

Kudos to the last two posts ... to the OP, true, you don't owe him anything. However, what you have to realize is that medicine is a cooperative effort; you can't do everything on your own, no matter how much you know. You help him this time, maybe he'll help you next time. Also, I for one know that I am not able to afford new textbooks ... I'm living entirely off loans with no parental help and I don't think you should condemn people who can't afford to buy new textbooks.

 

[ashkan33]

it's burning a freakin' cd for crying out loud.....not giving him your first born.

 

[Gerg]

Did you owe him a CD? No.
Should he have asked you for a CD? I don't know.
Should you help out others around you? Yes.
Was whatever pain you would have gone through to make him the CD worth the joy he would have recieved from getting it? Who knows.
Will I give you a pat on the back for not helping him, and standing up for anti-piracy? No.

 

[lilmo]

are the cd's actually that valuable and helpful? the only cd that i've ever used that came with a book is Langman's Medical Embryology--and that's a freakin awesome cd. i would recommend it to anyone.

but beyond that, why not share? maybe your school is more competitive than mine. but from my experience so far, everyone seems willing to help out a fellow classmate.

 

[superdood]

cd?

i never even read a medical school textbook

 

[ParisHilton]

I see your point in that you are not obligated to do this but one thing's for sure - you better believe this person is talking smack behind your back. As I'm sure you've already noticed, med school is more like jr high and reputations stick - like it or not. I would hate to be labeled "cutthroat" right off the bat (I'm assuming you're M1). It's not like there's "secret" info on these CDs that will enable you to ace your class. Even though this person is "not your friend," you could've made one that would help with old tests and pirated PDA software later on.

The funny thing is that, most likely, neither of you will even open either the text or the CD! Again, I understand that it's not fair for you to have paid full price, but how many pirated MP3s do you have on your computer right now? What about Windows or MS Office? You have to be very selective when you cutthroat somebody - there's almost an art to it. Give everyone useless or easily available stuff. Only hide things that will really give you an edge. Trust me, this person will get the CD off another person so in the end what did you accomplish? You maybe saved 5 minutes of your time but made an enemy:

"He who has a thousand friends
has not a friend to spare,
for he who makes one enemy
shall meet him everywhere." - Ali ibn-Abi-Talib (602 AD - 661 AD)

P.S. If you're a good looking girl disregard this post. 😉

 

[freesolo]

wow just in writing this post you could have burnt him a cd 😀. Why doesnt he burn the cd himself if he already has a copy of his own now, i would have done it anywayz just to be nice like that, and money means alot, ive taken enough books from people to be able to return the favor

 

[omarsaleh66]

Hey dude, Burn him the cd. I come to u from the year 2034. The robots are fighting the humans. If u dont burn that ho the cd, then he will not ace Anatomy and go into Family Practice and not be the father of John Conner.

Hope that helps

Omar

 

[v-tach]

Paws--

I think you did the right thing by not burning the CD. It would be, as you say, "ripping off the company" and that's not right. As for other people's comments about helping your classmates, those are fair comments as well. Maybe a good thing to do would be to let him borrow the CD when you're not using it and he needs it. That way you would be helping him without doing anything unethical.

--v-tach

 

[bgreet]

I would just burn the cd. It's not a question of ethics its just a question of people looking out for each other. What, is he now supposed to go purchase a brand new book because his used one didnt come with a cd? I'd be one of the first to copy the cd and give him a copy. But thats just the kind of person that I am.

 

[doc05]

this is not an ethics question, because nobody really cares about "ripping off the company." what the OP did was intentionally insult a classmate.

"He's not my friend or anything" -- give me a break. you are all in this together.

 

[Smile'n'Wink MD]

Paws, what a dumb post. If you need advice on something as petty as this and you're just STARTING med school, I think you're going to have a really tough time. Man, you remind me of those anal premeds I hated hanging around during undergrad.

I don't think it was really the whole ripping off the company as much as maybe you were feeling taken advantage of. I would have totally done it, but if he showed no love back, then forget him. But don't judge him straight off and assume the worst. And it's not that ethical compared to the really unethical situations you'll be placed in as a physician such as patient coverage and drug company perks for prescriping their drugs.

 

[BeatArmy]

I would just burn the cd. It's not a question of ethics its just a question of people looking out for each other. What, is he now supposed to go purchase a brand new book because his used one didnt come with a cd? I'd be one of the first to copy the cd and give him a copy. But thats just the kind of person that I am.

Yeah. I'm certainly not a lawyer, but I'm not sure there is even a piracy issue involved. In buying the textbook (even used), he may legally have bought the rights to the info on the CD, even if the physical CD was missing.

Like when your little brother broke your New Kids on the Block tape. You already paid for the rights to the music, so copying the tape from your babysitter is ok.

 

[Al Pacino]

BURN HIM THE CD. Trust me, there will come a moment in time when you may find yourself suddenly needing his assistance. Maybe you won't need his help the first two years, BUT what are you gonna do when the two of you are paired up together in the same rotation.? He'll do anything he can to make your life miserable on the rotation.

Also, by lending him a hand by burning the CD, you've invoked the reciprocity principle. He will feel obligated to help you when you ask him.

 

[wends]

😳 , ok now i feel bad for the op....*pats Paws* s'ok do what you want, its a free world

 

[WyldeWolf1]

Some people actually do feel that pirating CDs is unethical and choose not to violate their consciences. Obviously, there are also a lot of people who choose not to respect that choice.

If Paws feels it's wrong, but did it anyway to keep this guy from talking behind his back or so he will "feel obligated to help" down the line, what would that say about his integrity?

Yes, I agree that we should all cooperate and help each other out. But why hasn't anyone suggested that Paws find an alternative way to do so if he feels strongly that burning this CD isn't ethical? He can probably offer something better anyway.

 

[lotanna]

wow is it really that deep?
I made a copy of one of my coursepack for a friend in class. Big deal, I bought it, and she didnt get hers, and it wasnt that big of a deal for her to copy it. I know I'll need her help or another classmate's help soon, its inevitable. From ur post its not even because its unethical, it seems like its because you just dont want to, which is fine.

 

[Jaded Soul]

To the OP: If you're making a big deal out of this non-issue, you're going to be for a LOT of conflict as you progress through school. That conflict isn't going to come just from your own moral and ethical standards, it's also going to come from the people you alienate along the way. Of course, there are places to draw the line. I just happen to think this is not one of them, especially since the other person bought the book (I don't think it's an issue that he got it used).

Like others have suggested, reputations in med school come quickly and stick. While you may be upholding your own beliefs, other people are going to see it as an act of selfishness and be less inclined to help you later on. That's just reality.

 

[DOctorJay]

pay it forward - good movie, good lessons

start doing nice things for your classmates, it helps out like you wouldn't believe in the long run, it WILL come back to you.

my classmates are amazing by the way!!!

-J

 

[Pixye1]

if it would have been me....i would have burned the CD....it's only a CD. I'm all about the reciprocity principle....you never know when you might need that classmate's help down the road. BUT I do understand the OP's point of view....I just wouldn't think of it in that manner.

 

[16846]

You did the right thing.

Friends asking is one thing, but other people that aren't your friends are just using you, and this is speaking from my personal experience in medical school.

There are a lot of users in medical school, be wary of anyone who wants something and it isn't someone you know well. Once you do what they ask, they probably won't talk to you again until they need something from you in the future.

 

[ParisHilton]

You did the right thing.

Friends asking is one thing, but other people that aren't your friends are just using you, and this is speaking from my personal experience in medical school.

There are a lot of users in medical school, be wary of anyone who wants something and it isn't someone you know well. Once you do what they ask, they probably won't talk to you again until they need something from you in the future.

How do you make friends in the first place? Doesn't someone have to break the ice? If this person screwed over the OP - then fine - don't give the CDs. There will be a time when the OP needs this person or this person's friends. The most selfish, dishonest, cutthroat people I've ever met in my life are other med students. I naively thought that it would be the opposite. It's like that Shawshank Redemption quote: "The funny thing is - on the outside, I was an honest man, straight as an arrow. I had to come to prison to be a crook."

 

[edmadison]

Yeah. I'm certainly not a lawyer, but I'm not sure there is even a piracy issue involved. In buying the textbook (even used), he may legally have bought the rights to the info on the CD, even if the physical CD was missing.

Like when your little brother broke your New Kids on the Block tape. You already paid for the rights to the music, so copying the tape from your babysitter is ok.

Uh, There is no question it is illegal. The rights do not transfer. The licensing agreements tend to be quite clear about this. Whether or not it is ethical or not is certainly a question for debate, however. Will you go to jail? -- not a chance. Get sued? -- not a chance. Is it OK to steal (or facilitate it) just because you won't get caught, or because the victim is a large corporation? -- that's up to you.

Ed

 

[Enkindu]

Uh, There is no question it is illegal. The rights do not transfer. The licensing agreements tend to be quite clear about this. Whether or not it is ethical or not is certainly a question for debate, however. Will you go to jail? -- not a chance. Get sued? -- not a chance. Is it OK to steal (or facilitate it) just because you won't get caught, or because the victim is a large corporation? -- that's up to you.

Ed

I was glad to see at least one voice of reason in this thread full of amoral drivel. Doing the right thing is important. I'm no fan of big corporate America, but every little moral corner you cut chips away at the social contract we all share.

Assuming this really is a community of people associated with medical education, I am amazed at the complete lack of ethical concern expressed by a number of the above posters. I suppose it does make it easier to understand how we've become a people that seem to embrace dishonesty and deception.

I would give the shirt off of my back to any of my classmates- hell, I'd even give someone a ride across the country for free if they needed it. I think we all have a duty to help each other out. But I wouldn't break the law for anyone, even if I thought the law were stupid and irrelevant... and I would think less of anyone that forced me to make that call.

I guess this is the legacy of the old Napster.... we're a nation that thinks stealing is fine as long as it's easy and impossible to prosecute. I'm so proud.

 

[Howard Roark]

good luck

 

[mdchick]

Wow you are a jerk. You aren't going to tell me that you have never used napster or kazaa or stolen one of those little candies out of the grocery aisle? Face it - your pre-med competitiveness got the best of you. Not to mention that you initially said you would do it. Just hope you never need his help at some point or that perhaps you are never in some financially draining situation that would prevent you to purchase all your books shiny and new. So basically he has bought his books used, and you want him to go spend additional $$ to buy them new?? FYI: most doctors don't work alone and you'll have to learn about teamwork and doing favors for others. Check that cut-throatedness at the door and learn how to help each other out....GEEZ!!!

 

[Enkindu]

Wow you are a jerk. You aren't going to tell me that you have never used napster or kazaa or stolen one of those little candies out of the grocery aisle? Face it - your pre-med competitiveness got the best of you. Not to mention that you initially said you would do it. Just hope you never need his help at some point or that perhaps you are never in some financially draining situation that would prevent you to purchase all your books shiny and new. So basically he has bought his books used, and you want him to go spend additional $$ to buy them new?? FYI: most doctors don't work alone and you'll have to learn about teamwork and doing favors for others. Check that cut-throatedness at the door and learn how to help each other out....GEEZ!!!

Were you replying to me? If you were, thank you for illustrating my point so perfectly. I am the least competetive medical student I know. I chose my medical school because of its focus on cooperative clinical education (I turned down admission to a school "ranked" much higher because I wanted to be around people that were focused on helping patients and each other, not on grades and getting published). You (and many others here) seem to think that I am "cold hearted" because I make the personal choice not to pirate someone else's intellectual property. I do not own any illegally downloaded music, in spite of the fact that I LOVE lots of hard to find tunes AND in spite of the fact that my ex-girlfriend stole my entire 400+ CD collection in 1997. I have never stolen anything because I truly believe that dishonest acts by their nature damage relationships between people and violate the social contract (look it up) that we all share.

Just FYI, I have given away (not sold) many of my old textbooks, not to mention climbing gear, furniture, etc. to people that needed it but couldn't afford it. Please try to understand that there is a difference between being cold-hearted and repecting my fellow humans by demanding that I conduct myself in an honorable fashion.

 

[koma]

But I wouldn't break the law for anyone, even if I thought the law were stupid and irrelevant...

People with this mentality really puzzle me.

Personally, I have an individual code of ethics that relies a whole lot more on my 'gut feeling' then on any written law. I am sure either way ('follow every rule in the book regardless how stupid' or 'follow your gut') can have awful consequences, but somehow I prefer the latter.

 

[Enkindu]

People with this mentality really puzzle me.

Personally, I have an individual code of ethics that relies a whole lot more on my 'gut feeling' then on any written law. I am sure either way ('follow every rule in the book regardless how stupid' or 'follow your gut') can have awful consequences, but somehow I prefer the latter.

I won't break a law just because it is inconvenient. We have all agreed to abide by the rules of our society, and it is part of my personal code of ethics to abide by those rules unless there is a very good reason not to. For me this is simply a demonstration of respect for those around me.

On the other hand, if obeying a law requires inherently unethical behavior (e.g. discriminating against any group of people or violation of a person's inalienable human rights) then I would disregard the law completely.

Do you not see the difference? Not being able to illegally copy a CD is an "inconvenience" to those contemplating the act. On the other hand, if some law were passed saying that I couldn't offer the same standard of care to people based on their race, religion, or orientation, I would be morally obligated to violate that law.

In our culture lately there seems to be a worsening "ends justify the means" mentality. Just because you want to do something and can get away with it doesn't mean you should. I find it humorous that some of the people blathering on most loudly about "honor" are the ones that seem to think we should be exempt from holding ourselves to honorable standards.

 

[JattMed]

Gimme a break.......ethics and med students?
The two are mutually exclusive.
Ethics suddenly appear after you graduate.
Everyone in med burns CD's of past exams, texts, slides you name it, and nary a cry of foul is heard.
Med students in this together? Hmmmm sounds like the school of love to me.
Reality is med students are the most competitive bunch you will ever meet. They will tell you "oh damn I never studied all day".
Interpretation the dude 'read' for 6 hours and only 'reviewed' what he 'read' for an hour therefore no 'studying' done.
It is all semantics.
These people should be in the employ of the CIA.
Anyways, my advice is 'surprise' the dude and toss him the disc.
As said before by others, he will reciprocate, perhaps with a burnt copy of old exams-ya never know.
I remember in my first year I asked a guy in my PBL twice if he could let me 'borrow' his CD-not a single reply yet the guy had the nerve to sit across from me weekly in PBL. When he failed the first exam, heck I cracked a smile. Did I do him any favors? Take a guess.
There are however limits to what you 'should' share. If you went out and spent $500.00 on Kaplan Organ Systems and you refuse to share your Kaplan CD then that is absolutely understandable-make it known you spent the green.
You have to keep in mind that most things circulating in med classes are usually received 'gratis' from someone else anyway.
My friends and I constantly received and passed on CDs full of info in years 1 and 2.
There were times when we did 'consciously' decide to not give it to someone-i.e., people that shafted us. Common sense.
Give and ye shall receive.

 

[Sharky]

You don't need to burn him the CD. You should have just let him borrow it and let him burn it himself. Burning him the CD is just exta work. That way, he would have still been happy but he would have had to work for it.

 

[Pooh Chong]

Interesting question...ethically, it may not matter if you burned him the CD or not. A lot of textbooks come with CDs as a part of the package. If he bought it second hand, he should have received the CD as part of the book. If you burn it for him, you are not stealing from the company as he should have had it in the first place.

If the CD has a ISBN number then it could be seen as two items when you bought the book, but if there is nothing like the sort then I would think that the CD is implicitly bundled with the book.

But, you don't owe the student anything...and you didn't give him anything, don't expect that student to give you anything when you are in a similiar situation. If you're okay with that...then no big deal.

 

[Ramoray]

all i have to say to this debate is the OP--> what a TOOL! I can totally picture the uptight toolish type to make a big ethical debate about burning a cd.. wow you must have really been fired up over the napster thing! And clue 2 to being a total tool is who says " I hemmed and hawed over it" ha

 

[nutmegs]

sometimes I'm tempted to come back and post on SDN more, and then a thread like this shows up and I remember why I left in the first place. christ.

 

[JattMed]

sometimes I'm tempted to come back and post on SDN more, and then a thread like this shows up and I remember why I left in the first place. christ.

Hahahaha Nutmegs!
No soup for you! j/k
And it's Jesus H. Christ!

 

[macdown]

all i have to say to this debate is the OP--> what a TOOL! I can totally picture the uptight toolish type to make a big ethical debate about burning a cd.. wow you must have really been fired up over the napster thing! And clue 2 to being a total tool is who says " I hemmed and hawed over it" ha

I totally agree with Ramoray. If this is the OP's idea of a major ethical issue, I'd hate to see him in paractice. You are the definition of a TOOL!

 

[Enkindu]

I totally agree with Ramoray. If this is the OP's idea of a major ethical issue, I'd hate to see him in paractice. You are the definition of a TOOL!

I don't think the OP was making a big deal out of this issue. I think he just wanted some feedback on a small but interesting ethical point. According to the majority here, anyone who takes the time to look at potentially valid different sides of an argument is a TOOL.

Your sensitivity and gift for in-depth analysis are impressive. I defer to your superior intellect.

 

[Scott_L]

From a publisher's standpoint, I appreciate you not burning the CD not only because it is against copy write laws but it is also an ethical issue.

Publishers have to fight piracy on a daily basis. In the long run, piracy drives up the cost of books. While piracy is more of an issue in the international markets, it is a growing problem domestically too.

By the way, I totally agree with the post stating that the Simbryo CD in Langman's is great so is the Dynamic Human Anatomy CD in Grant's.

Good luck with your studies!

Regards,

Scott

Lippincott Williams & Wilkins
[email protected]

 

[modemduck]

I don't think the OP was making a big deal out of this issue. I think he just wanted some feedback on a small but interesting ethical point. According to the majority here, anyone who takes the time to look at potentially valid different sides of an argument is a TOOL.

Your sensitivity and gift for in-depth analysis are impressive. I defer to your superior intellect.

I agree w/you Enkindu... the OP just wanted some feedback...

To the OP: yo Paws, if you decide not to burn him the CD just remember that people are going to expect that type of "integrity" from you later on when it comes to following the rules. So if you ever run into a snag again - like needing old exams or help on a "take-home exam", then you will be seen as two faced rather than ethical... I know a lot of kids at my school that you could burn alive before they would do something unethical even burning a CD; even though I probably would copy the CD i think that ppl that live to a higher standard are really awesome. g/l w/yer choice.

Btw, I like the name Pooh Chong... that is really catchy!

 

[BeatArmy]

From a publisher's standpoint, I appreciate you not burning the CD not only because it is against copy write laws but it is also an ethical issue.

Publishers have to fight piracy on a daily basis. In the long run, piracy drives up the cost of books. While piracy is more of an issue in the international markets, it is a growing problem domestically too.

By the way, I totally agree with the post stating that the Simbryo CD in Langman's is great so is the Dynamic Human Anatomy CD in Grant's.

Good luck with your studies!

Regards,

Scott

Lippincott Williams & Wilkins
[email protected]

Scott-

Maybe you are the perfect person to resolve the licensing question.
What are the legalities when a CD is sold with a textbook?
Can the software license be sold along with the book? Is it automatically transferred with the book? Would it have made a difference if the person who sold it had left the CD inside the cover?
Buying a book used isn't a copyright infringement, and the CD's often contain the same info as in the book, so the person has paid for the copyrighted material.
A quick check of the three textbooks I have on hand. Two contain no licensing information at all. The other says that the license is transferrable, but doesn't specify if the actual CD has to be transferred.
My curiosity has been piqued by this thread. You gotta have some legal gurus around LWW who can answer.

 

[azzarah]

Give me a break!
So you are not going to burn him the CD...at least nicely explain your "ethical" problem with this issue to him and let him borrow it for a few days...that's not against the law, is it? 🙄

 

[toofache32]

Burn it.

I actually don't see the ethical issue here. You guys obviously let the media brainwash you when they use terminology like "pirating." I have several thousand MP3's on my computer. I only downloaded them because they were free...many of them I haven't even listened to. If I had to pay, I would have just said forget it and done without them. Therefore, the record company never would have gotten money from me to begin with. They cannot claim "lost profits" on profits they never had and never would have had.

What about people who sit in my room and listen to music I bought. They didn't pay for it, but I did. What if we listen to it on their stereo? What if I forget and leave it in their stereo? Are they allowed to listen while I am gone?

Anyone ever pick up a newspaper someone left in a chair in an airport or restaurant? Did you read it even though you didn't throw another 50 cents into a machine?

Re-selling the MP3s or the newspaper is another story, because you're generating profits that should go to the record company or newspaper.

 

[Paws]

Well, it's interesting to read the feedback here. I guess I misjudged the forum when I posted this question. I appreciate all the people who called me a "tool" and a "cutthroat".

This guy is not my friend and he is someone I feel is just looking for an easy way. I would definitely help out a friend but I am not so interested in helping someone 1) break the law, and 2) rip me off. I also didn't trust him to borrow the CDs and actually return them, so that's a large part of why I didn't want to do it. I offered to burn them in the computer room but he said no he wanted to borrow them.

Plenty of people in my class are really awesome and I am happy to help them and work with them. But, I have also definitely already found people who are not helpful, supercompetitive and still seem to think we are in the pre-med phase. These people I try and avoid if possible.

Well, it's a free country and we're all welcome to our own opinions. I appreciate the supportive comments (thanks Enkindu!) and it's been interesting to read the feedback. 🙂

 

[thackl]

I can't believe this has gotten so much attention. Go study

 

[edmadison]

People with this mentality really puzzle me.

Personally, I have an individual code of ethics that relies a whole lot more on my 'gut feeling' then on any written law. I am sure either way ('follow every rule in the book regardless how stupid' or 'follow your gut') can have awful consequences, but somehow I prefer the latter.

Wow!

No offense, but this is what is wrong with our society today. When everyone adopts your ethical code, we will have anarchy. Read some Locke, read some Jefferson. The free nature of our society depends on us giving up some individual freedom for the common good. If you break the laws you don't agree with just for the heck of it, you stomp on democracy. I don't like to pay taxes. I know how to hide things on my tax return and not get caught. Do I do it? No. Why, because our elected officials have determined that I should pay taxes.

In my opinion it is a fundamentally immoral act to break the law. Before some of you others jump on me, there are situations when it would be more immoral not to break the law. However, just taking something because "I want it", doesn't fit the bill.

ED