"Bush seeks custody of Schiavo"

[HoodyHoo]

Okay, so I know this is a touchy subject with many differing opinions. But seriously, Jeb Bush trying to seek custody of this woman is a bit over the top in my opinion.

He appointed someone to "observe" her for two hours, and this person came to the conclusion that she was neglected and misdiagnosed WITHOUT EVEN EXAMINING HER. So are we saying that we should trust someone's opinion who did not examine her over doctor who have been tending to her for 15 years???

I strongly believe in doing whatever possible to protect and help our future patient's maintain their lives, but if her wishes were truly to not live like that, then they should let her go and let her pass peacefully (just my opinion).

Regardless, I think it is ABSOLUTELY ridiculous that the Bush brothers are spending so much time on this one case when there are so many more issues that affect our ENTIRE population and not just one individual. Once again it seems bush is trying to come out on top as some sort of hero.

Anyway, I just wanted to see how future osteopathic physicians felt about this subject and the intervention that Governor Bush is pursuing.

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[Kazema]

At least Bush isn't personally involving himself in all the stupid steroids crap that's going on in Congress now.

 

[PACtoDOC]

At least Bush isn't personally involving himself in all the stupid steroids crap that's going on in Congress now.

The steroids thing is not stupid at all. Major league baseball players are the idols of many a child, myself included about 20 years ago. I would have followed any regimen my idols endorsed if I knew I could throw a 90 mph fastball or hit a ball 550 feet. In my high school I knew several friends who routinely took Dianabol oral tabs for years. One of them died from a rare germ cell tumor 4 years after we graduated. Steroid are horrible for the average kid. At least pro athletes who do them have access to some of the best doctors who can help to monitor their serum androgens and LFT's, but in reality, why are they being allowed to use them anyway. I appluad Bush in his 94 state of the Union address for attacking this issue. You know something is wrong when 40 year old baseball players are built more thick than the average NFL linebacker who is 26. Baseball, being a huge monopoly protected by governmental anti-trust exceptions is accountable to people like my 5 year old son who worships the ground some of these guys walk on. Congress was only trying to scare the commissioner into making a better policy that actually has a chance of banning the use of these substances. The 5 strikes and your out rule is just crazy and Congress only wants baseball to introduce the same anti-drug rules that the NFL and Olympics already exist under.

As for the Shiavo case, the Bush twins are so far out right on this one that I think they have flanked back around 360 degrees to become radical leftists. You usually hear ACLU type groups trying to limit state government rights and trying to empower the feds. This is the craziest thing I have ever heard of and it will taint the right for a long time. Anyone who has spent a month on geriatrics doing Hospice knows that this woman is not starving, nor thirsting. She is dying a very natural death that should have occurred 7 years ago. Hospice patients die hourly without ever even having feeding tubes inserted in the first place, and this is the EXACT way they die. A little morphine and a little scopolamine is the absolute best way to pass my friends!!

 

[sophiejane]

As for the Shiavo case, the Bush twins are so far out right on this one that I think they have flanked back around 360 degrees to become radical leftists. You usually hear ACLU type groups trying to limit state government rights and trying to empower the feds. This is the craziest thing I have ever heard of and it will taint the right for a long time. Anyone who has spent a month on geriatrics doing Hospice knows that this woman is not starving, nor thirsting. She is dying a very natural death that should have occurred 7 years ago. Hospice patients die hourly without ever even having feeding tubes inserted in the first place, and this is the EXACT way they die. A little morphine and a little scopolamine is the absolute best way to pass my friends!!

Interesting how the government suddenly becomes quite useful to the conservative right when they have an agenda, especially one that might appeal to the conservative christian right, to whom they owe a debt of gratitide for November's vote. Then it's no-holds-barred in-your-face government intrusion into private lives. I can't believe more people aren't outraged by that, no matter what you think about the right to die.

The one good thing about this is that I think a lot of people (myself included) have decided to write a living will. I can't imagine a more horrible way for my family to have to spend my last days than dealing with a media (and apparently a government) circus.

 

[OSUdoc08]

In the case of Terri, her cerebal cortex is liquefied, but her brainstem is intact. She is "technically" not brain dead, but she has no cortical function. This means all sensory pathway and motor pathways do not enter or leave the cerebrum. Terri is unable to feel pain or control movements.

All of the actions performed by Terri are reflex mechanisms controlled by the reticular formations of the brainstem.

In my opinion, passive "euthanasia" is not euthanasia, as medication administration is not a legal requirement.

I find it interesting that people think that Terri is being "killed."

You cannot kill someone by not doing anything. You can kill someone by an active process.

I suppose you could argue negligence.

However, how do we define life?

If you pith a frog, does it still not jump? Is it alive? No.

Terri is in essence a "pithed" human. Reflexive function does not equal life.

 

[JMC_MarineCorps]

In the case of Terri, her cerebal cortex is liquefied, but her brainstem is intact. She is "technically" not brain dead, but she has no cortical function. This means all sensory pathway and motor pathways do not enter or leave the cerebrum. Terri is unable to feel pain or control movements.

All of the actions performed by Terri are reflex mechanisms controlled by the reticular formations of the brainstem.

Just curious how you can say that she has no functional sensory pathway...they were rubbing cotton swabs on her upper lips and she was 'irritated' by the stimulus and moved her head away from it...not familiar with that reflex pathway.

If she doesn't experience pain that is one thing...but if they starve her and she suffers through hunger pangs on her way to eternal sleep...there is nothing more inhumane.

 

[Bill_Brasky]

I'm interested in the whole Schiavo proceedings. I was wondering if the info in this story was accurate... its from a conservative site so I want to get it vetted by people smarter than me.

http://www.nationalreview.com/comment/johansen200503160848.asp

-Bill Brasky, future OMS

Second: To Bill Brasky.

Together: Bill Brasky!

Second: Did I ever tell you about the time Brasky and I were in a production of "The King and I?"

First: Every morning I crap the bed.

Second: Anyway, on opening night, Brasky chloroforms the entire cast, and slowly eats them in front of the audience for two hours. The production got pretty good reviews.

 

[OSUdoc08]

Just curious how you can say that she has no functional sensory pathway...they were rubbing cotton swabs on her upper lips and she was 'irritated' by the stimulus and moved her head away from it...not familiar with that reflex pathway.

If she doesn't experience pain that is one thing...but if they starve her and she suffers through hunger pangs on her way to eternal sleep...there is nothing more inhumane.

We did the case study on it today in neuroanatomy. Her anterolateral and PCML systems are not intact---there will be no "hunger."

The reflexive movement away from the cotton can be explained by the pontomedullary reticular formation. Let's not confuse a reflex with an "irritation."

As far as those news reports.......they are more varied than the colors in the electromagnetic spectrum of visible light. You will start by finding some people saying there was no MRI or that it was a bad diagnosis, and there are other conspiracy theorists that will say that it was actually her husband that strangled her.

The only reliable information is that not reported by the media, or those biased against concrete medical data.

Or, politicians, that happened to go to medical schools. Politicians will always be politicians.

 

[T.A.M]

I have gone beyond the "should Terri live or die" debate because what is now at stake has potential repercussions for everyone. What is at stake is weather or not the legally sanctioned concept of durable power of attorney for the next of kin will survive. Terri Schiavo left no living will. In similar cases everyday throughout the country, power of attorney passes to the next of kin to decide the course of treatment. Usually, the family accepts the decision, and if the choice includes palliative hospice care (as Michael Schiavo chose for his wife), the other family members accept the decision and do not fight it. The only difference with the Terri Schiavo case is that her parents want to overturn the legally-sanctioned power of attorney from her husband. If they are successful, they will set a legal precedent where any 3rd party will have potential recourse to intervene in someone's else's end-of-life care. Although it looks like the courts will not set this new precedent, I'm not certain about the legislatures or other arms of the government. Although I can emphasize with Terri Schiavo's parents on the loss of their daughter, I can not sanction the medical-legal nightmare they would unleash if their wishes are granted.

 

[sophiejane]

I have gone beyond the "should Terri live or die" debate because what is now at stake has potential repercussions for everyone. What is at stake is weather or not the legally sanctioned concept of durable power of attorney for the next of kin will survive. Terri Schiavo left no living will. In similar cases everyday throughout the country, power of attorney passes to the next of kin to decide the course of treatment. Usually, the family accepts the decision, and if the choice includes palliative hospice care (as Michael Schiavo chose for his wife), the other family members accept the decision and do not fight it. The only difference with the Terri Schiavo case is that her parents want to overturn the legally-sanctioned power of attorney from her husband. If they are successful, they will set a legal precedent where any 3rd party will have potential recourse to intervene in someone's else's end-of-life care. Although it looks like the courts will not set this new precedent, I'm not certain about the legislatures or other arms of the government. Although I can emphasize with Terri Schiavo's parents on the loss of their daughter, I can not sanction the medical-legal nightmare they would unleash if their wishes are granted.

You totally hit the nail on the head. That is exactly what is at stake. I wonder how many of the people bringing their CHILDREN (!!) out to the hospice in Florida to get arrested are aware of that.

The people protesting in Florida and in the rest of the country have no clue how complicated this case is. They don't understand the anatomy and physiology of her condition (nice job summing it up, OSUdoc) and they don't understand the legal ramifications. They are acting on gut-level emotion and that is always dangerous.

 

[docbill]

... stake has potential repercussions for everyone. What is at stake is weather or not the legally sanctioned concept of durable power of attorney for the next of kin will survive. ... her parents want to overturn the legally-sanctioned power of attorney from her husband ... they will set a legal precedent where any 3rd party will have potential recourse to intervene in someone's else's end-of-life care.

I agree 100%

Here is the real problem with this case.

Put individual feelings/ethics away for a bit. If this precedent is set, then it will open up the gates to many more cases like this.

Imagine, you are a doctor, and the husband or wife of a dying person tell you to stop treatment. The parents come and say no start treatment... The church comes and sais start treatment, Animal care degnity people say stop treatment, the boys and girls scout of america (who this person worked for) sais they have custody and they want you to start treatment. WHO GET SUED AT THE END?

 

[misyel]

Interesting how the government suddenly becomes quite useful to the conservative right when they have an agenda, especially one that might appeal to the conservative christian right, to whom they owe a debt of gratitide for November's vote. Then it's no-holds-barred in-your-face government intrusion into private lives. I can't believe more people aren't outraged by that, no matter what you think about the right to die.

The one good thing about this is that I think a lot of people (myself included) have decided to write a living will. I can't imagine a more horrible way for my family to have to spend my last days than dealing with a media (and apparently a government) circus.

It's all about the Health Care Proxy baby!

 

[docbill]

they have an agenda, especially one that might appeal to the conservative christian right, to whom they owe a debt of gratitide for November's vote.

Problems with selling your sole. It is best to least it out.

This is all a distraction. Smoke cloud. They are taking away your right to retire without begging. Your right to file chapter 11, your right to health care access and cheaper druggs. Your right to cheaper gas. You right to a better environment, your right to many more things... all because of special interest groups with lobying power. 21st century Government Corporation

 

[Dr JPH]

This really is a scary situation.

As some have eluded above, we are not simply dealing with one sick woman in Florida.

We are dealing with the rights of all of our future patients, not to mention our family members and someday ourselves.

I have my own opinions on this woman, OSU did a fine job with that so I dont need to reiterate, but I am more concerned about the legal precedent that may follow.

Pay attention future doctors...we may be witnessing a drastic change in the way we will eventually need to practice medicine.

 

[T.A.M]

I'm about to start breathing my sigh of relief because it looks like the courts aren't buying any of the Schindler family's arguments. It looks like insanity may not rule the day after all (this time...).

 

[docbill]

I was watching the news yesterday... and there were these protesters crying and screaming how unbelievable this is.. how could they do that... etc.. etc.. and I was going to throw the TV out the window. Then I decided to change the channel instead.

Jon Stewart's daily show was on... and he had fun with this case. Appearently all the maine news stations (Trusty FOX, Reliable CNN, and Hotmail MSNBC) where blowing things wayyyy out. Like calling the husband and nazi and saying he was not faithful.. etc.. the guy hung arround for many years, tried to make sure she got what she wanted. Most men, would not have done that.

 

[jkhamlin]

We did the case study on it today in neuroanatomy. Her anterolateral and PCML systems are not intact---there will be no "hunger."

The reflexive movement away from the cotton can be explained by the pontomedullary reticular formation. Let's not confuse a reflex with an "irritation."

As far as those news reports.......they are more varied than the colors in the electromagnetic spectrum of visible light. You will start by finding some people saying there was no MRI or that it was a bad diagnosis, and there are other conspiracy theorists that will say that it was actually her husband that strangled her.

The only reliable information is that not reported by the media, or those biased against concrete medical data.

Or, politicians, that happened to go to medical schools. Politicians will always be politicians.

Just want to point out that Sen. Leader Bill Frist (you know, the doctor) disagrees with you all on this. Oh, but I'm sure it is his "agenda," like conservatives are the only ones with an agenda, and liberals cannot be swayed by their own biases.

 

[docbill]

Everyone is the same $hiat, different Pile.

 

[OSUdoc08]

"At first blush, the video of Terri Schiavo appearing to smile and look lovingly at her mother seemed to represent cognition. This was also true for how she followed the Mickey Mouse balloon held by her father. The court has carefully viewed the videotapes as requested by counsel and does find that these actions were neither consistent nor reproducible. For instance, Terri Schiavo appeared to have the same look on her face when Dr. Cranford rubbed her neck. Dr. Greer testified she had a smile during his (non-videoed) examination. Also, Mr. Schlindler tried several more times to have her eyes follow the Mickey Mouse balloon but without success. Also, she clearly does not consistently respond to her mother. The court finds that based on the credible medical evidence, cognitive function would manifest itself in a constant response to stimuli.

Dr. Hammesfahr testified that he felt that he was able to get Terry Schiavo to reproduce repeatedly to his commands. However, by the court's count, he gave 105 commands to Terry Schiavo and, at his direction, Mrs. Schindler gave an additional 6 commands. Again, by the court's count, he asked her 61 questions and Mrs. Schindler, at his direction, asked her an additional 11 questions. The court saw few actions that could be considered responsive to either those commands or those questions. The videographer focused on her hands when Dr. Hammesfahr was asking her to squeeze. While Dr. Hammesfahr testified that she squeezed his finger on command, the video would not appear to support that and his reaction on the video likewise would not appear to support that testimony.

Viewing all of the evidence as a whole, and acknowledging that medicine is not a precise science, the court finds that the credible evidence overwhelmingly supports the view that Terry Schiavo remains in a persistent vegetative state. Even Dr. Maxfield acknowledges that vegetative patients can track on occasion and that smiling can be a reflex."

Court Order, Nov. 22, 2002

 

[pathdawg]

Interesting how the government suddenly becomes quite useful to the conservative right when they have an agenda, especially one that might appeal to the conservative christian right, to whom they owe a debt of gratitide for November's vote. Then it's no-holds-barred in-your-face government intrusion into private lives. I can't believe more people aren't outraged by that, no matter what you think about the right to die.

Very well put.

 

[pathdawg]

Just want to point out that Sen. Leader Bill Frist (you know, the doctor) disagrees with you all on this. Oh, but I'm sure it is his "agenda," like conservatives are the only ones with an agenda, and liberals cannot be swayed by their own biases.

As a physician, Frist really should know better. He actually said on the senate floor that we should give her another chance at life (paraphrasing), basically implying that she has a treatable condition.
He is pandering to the conservative evangelical christian right so he can make a run in 2008. Pure and simple. I was actually excited when he was first elected, happy to see a doctor in the senate. I now have absolutely no respect for him.
Have you no shame, Dr. Frist?

 

[pathdawg]

I think there is more to this story that was has been posted. It is not a religious issue, it is about someone using the system to legally murder someone.

Wow. I think its a little more complicated than that. Do you really believe that all of those judges in Florida have a secret agenda to kill innocent people? Seriously.
Oh, and btw, please don't use Fox News Channel snipets and try to pass them off as legitimate.
Thank you.

 

[sophiejane]

news4- "Recently, another presumed “brain-dead” woman made news in Kansas. In a coma after becoming the victim of a drunk driver, Sarah Scantlin snapped out of a twenty year silence and began to speak. Memories are now coming back to her. By legal definition, Miss Scantlin’s life is valid. Yesterday, it was not. Was she ever in a persistent vegetative state, or PVS? She’d respond to questions by blinking once for no, twice for yes, but since she couldn’t speak no one was ever sure she understood the questions."

How can you, allegedly a serious, albeit ** future ** student of medicine, actually promote this cr#p? Do you have any idea how different the two cases are? You obviously have no idea what persistent vegetative state means if you are posting this blather as support for your argument. PVS patients are UNCONSCIOUS. They do not respond to commands. Scantlin was not in a PVS if she was blinking on command.

And what does gay pride have to do with this, anyway? Are people waving rainbow flags in front of the hospice? No, they are praying CHRISTIAN prayers. I don't see scads of Muslims, Jews, or Buddhists out there crying and screaming. This is a Christian cause (although a small but vocal minority of them, no doubt), taken on by lawmakers because they have realized what a boon this group can be to them politically. If you can't see that you should take off the rose colored glasses.

 

[VentdependenT]

Isn't there a war going on?

 

[kyriacos01]

Isn't there a war going on?

I think…maybe…ummm….yes, I vaguely recall hearing something about that, but who knows it probably just another internet rumor.


Here is another well thought out and sound idea; compliments of GWB et al…
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/south_asia/4382735.stm


All the best,
-ky

 

[jkhamlin]

Dr. Frist based his opinion only of a video clip showing a behavior, which was not reproducible, indicative of no cortical activity.

Read the Court's Ruling, as above.

Dr. Frist based his opinion on his personal conversation with her neurologist.

 

[jkhamlin]

Dr. Krauthammer also disagrees with the definitive diagnosis that she is a "vegetable."

http://jewishworldreview.com/cols/krauthammer032305.asp

 

[T.A.M]

But something new comes up every day to boil my blood- now its the crowd of protesters outside of the hospice center, acting like its some kind of gulag or death camp. Imagine, this place is filled with patients and their families who chose to die with dignity and comfort. Rather than a peaceful death and proper mourning, these people have to fight their way through a police barrier and a media circus to be with their loved ones. Are protesters to be a common site outside of every nursing home and hospice center from now on (many of which, by the way, are run by the same religious demoninations the protesters claim to represent.)? Although I can not sanction abortion-on-demand, the "pro-life" movement has gone too far.

 

[jkhamlin]

Wow. I think its a little more complicated than that. Do you really believe that all of those judges in Florida have a secret agenda to kill innocent people? Seriously.
Oh, and btw, please don't use Fox News Channel snipets and try to pass them off as legitimate.
Thank you.

This is hilarious (or maybe Hillary-ous). You think that activist judges have no agenda, but Fox News does. Keep fencing windmills.

 

[jkhamlin]

As a physician, Frist really should know better. He actually said on the senate floor that we should give her another chance at life (paraphrasing), basically implying that she has a treatable condition.
He is pandering to the conservative evangelical christian right so he can make a run in 2008. Pure and simple. I was actually excited when he was first elected, happy to see a doctor in the senate. I now have absolutely no respect for him.
Have you no shame, Dr. Frist?

Yeah, it has to be that and not his knowledge of the situation and his medical education. Whatever. But the liberal side has to be no ideology, just the correct interpretation of fact. Why? because pathdawg said so, that's why.

 

[pathdawg]

Yeah, it has to be that and not his knowledge of the situation and his medical education. Whatever. But the liberal side has to be no ideology, just the correct interpretation of fact. Why? because pathdawg said so, that's why.

His knowledge of the situation? Did he examine her? Did he review her chart? No responsible doctor would make a statement like that without at least examining the patient, for crying out loud! He clearly has an agenda and that involves placating the religious right.
This is not about "ethics" (as if it is somehow ethical to maintain this poor woman in this unspeakably horrible condition when it is against her wishes). Frist's comments were not based on medical facts. He has a base to pander to. I guess I expected more from a physician. Frist is a politician at heart. Not a doctor.

 

[pathdawg]

This is hilarious (or maybe Hillary-ous). You think that activist judges have no agenda, but Fox News does. Keep fencing windmills.

Besides exposing your blind raging hatred for Hillary Clinton (all too predictable, btw), your point makes little sense. I love the buzz word "Activist Judge", of course only utilized when a judge makes a decision that does not please the right. We should all just sit back and let the right have their way. We'll have a nice, secure theocracy in no time.

When fascism comes to America, it will be draped in an American flag.

I think one could argue that it has already come.

And one last thing: The sole purpose for the existance of FOX News is to forward their radically conservative agenda. It is not to provide news. Their "news" is actually about 80% commentary. The fact that they are so successful is truly frightening.

 

[OSUdoc08]

Dr. Frist based his opinion on his personal conversation with her neurologist.

Her neurologist admitted in court that her actions were not reproducible You obviously did not read my post very well.

Additionally, politicians have no objective credibility due to their partisan agendas. There is no need to defend them.

 

[OSUdoc08]

im not seeing the blind rage thing here... maybe im already blind

it is pretty interesting subject to talk about. following the end of WW2, a number of key nazi's were brought into the usa not as prisoners but as specialists, advisors, etc. very interesting... this was back in the 40s. today is 60 years later.....

i disagree with your "sole" purpose, but rather it is in my opinion to make money. They would not be there operating if they did not make money for the big guy that owns it all. i thought i read something that about 3 people control something like 90% of all news communication you see. pretty crazy. if Fox is a very conservative station, wouldnt that make CNN a very liberal station?

Yes.

 

[pathdawg]

im not seeing the blind rage thing here... maybe im already blind

it is pretty interesting subject to talk about. following the end of WW2, a number of key nazi's were brought into the usa not as prisoners but as specialists, advisors, etc. very interesting... this was back in the 40s. today is 60 years later.....

i disagree with your "sole" purpose, but rather it is in my opinion to make money. They would not be there operating if they did not make money for the big guy that owns it all. i thought i read something that about 3 people control something like 90% of all news communication you see. pretty crazy. if Fox is a very conservative station, wouldnt that make CNN a very liberal station?

I am not sure what the point is to your nazi reference. Anyway, to answer your question, no, cnn is not a liberal station. CNN balances out their commentary with conservatives (any channel that features Robert Novac cannot be considered liberal in any sense of the word). Fox features Sean Hannity (nutjob arch conservative), Geraldo Rivera (pathetic) and Bill O'Reily (O'Liely is more apt). Of course, they have frequent guest appearances by Ann Coulter, who spews her bizarre brand of distortions and lies. Fair and balanced? I don't think so. Fox is indeed out to make money, and remember that their owner is Rupert Murdock, an Australian national and tabliod newspaper magnate who leans waaaaaaay to the right.

The truth is, the "liberal media" boogeyman that folks like FNC perpetuate is a myth. There is indeed a biased media in this country, and it is biased towards the right. Liberals are not represented in the media (where have you gone, Phil Donohue?) The right (and not the reasonable George Will/Bob Dole libertarian right, but the far far right) is all over the media, and not just on Fox. Scarborough, Savage, Bennett, Coulter, Carlson, and of course, the granddaddy of them all, gigantic (pun intended) hypocrite Rush Limbaugh. They have mainstreamed and are very inflluencial. The fact that a born-again christian who does not believe in evolution occupies the oval office is evidence of that.

 

[HoodyHoo]

yes... in many diverse places... and rumors of many more on the horizon... iran's secret nuke operations, syria plotting against israel, much of africa is in continuous turmoil, bird flu virus running around the world, Kyrgyzstan government has been overturned, north korea not happy , china has formally laid the legal grounds for attacking taiwan, will the war that has officially ended in iraq ever be over??, and in our own neighborhoods people everyday fight with others for their lives.

watch what you say about the persians, they'll tear you up.......there is no proof of "secret" weapons. just like there were weapons in Iraq huh?? *******

 

[HoodyHoo]

is it not to kill her, but rather it is to not allow any future cases like this to be overturned in custody battles. but really this is not a custody battle, it should be criminal charges against her husband.

are you crazy??? criminal charges against the husband??? that's about the most ridiculous thing i've heard in a long time.

 

[pathdawg]

are you crazy??? criminal charges against the husband??? that's about the most ridiculous thing i've heard in a long time.

Believe it or not, that is what alot of the conservative activits are saying. Terri's brother, in fact, strongly implied as much the other night (this accusation was aired on Fox and of course, went unchallenged by that hack Sean Hannity).

These kind of wild accusations, crazy innuendos, and mistruths have been perpetuated in this case for a while now. Very sad.

There truly are no winners in this case (except for the lawyers, of course, but then again, don't they always win?) I feel terrible for her parents, not only because they are going to lose their daughter (one can argue they lost her 15 years ago), but also because of the way they have been manipulated by the radical right. Have you noticed how many spokespeople they have speaking on their behalf? Have you seen who is speaking on their behalf? These people don't care about Terri or the parents. They see this as yet another opportunity to impose their beliefs on the American people.

 

[pathdawg]

another lovely source

"Ms. Iyer said that Terri could:

# Interact with staff.
# Laugh.
# Talk - saying words like "mommy," "help me" and "hi."
# Let you know if she was in pain.
# React reflexively on command."



"Doocey then revealed that Carla was fired from the care facility because of a disagreement with Michael Schiavo in an incident where she claims he injected Terri with insulin.

Ms. Iyer said that after Michael visited Terri one day for about 20 minutes, with the door shut, she went in after he left and saw Terri sweating, lethargic and "crying hysterically."

Carla checked Terri's blood sugar, and it was barely reading on the glucometer. She also saw a vial of "insulin concealed in the trash bin."

According to Carla, there were needle marks underneath Terri's breast, under her arms and near her groin. Carla talked to the police and then went to the director of nursing, who was very upset that Carla had gone to the police. "



"Carla concurred, saying that Terri could be fed by mouth - jello and pudding, etc. - without aspirating, but that when Michael found out Terri was being fed by mouth, he told the nurses he was going to get them fired."

This news "source" is based on an interview that was aired on "Fox and Friends". Interesting...

Just to be clear, kids: This is not a legitimate story. Just like FNC is not a legitimate news organization.

Please don't pass on this kind of garbage, lest someone actually takes it as face value. If you have an opinion that is different than mine, then cool, bring it. We can both learn something. Just please base your arguments on fact.

 

[pathdawg]

look at the quotes from "Ms. Iyer". does this not strike you as a possible reason for criminal charges?? at the very least something very shady is going on.

i do agree that some of the speakers that get on there are not acting for the best reasons but, even so, even if they were muslim, or anything, my point for criminal charges would not be diminished.

I simply do not believe her. She was able to say "help me"? No way. Dude, I am a doctor. I have seen patients in persistent vegatative states. It doesn't make sense. The very fact that this story was carried on Fox and not the mainstream media should tell you something.

 

[pathdawg]

interesting summary

well i have never been there to see it myself so i dunno. all i can do is go by what others say. apparently there are doctors on both sides of the fence, neurologists on both sides, politicians on both sides, and family on both sides. so who knows i guess. it just bothers me to see that this never really was fully investigated. i mean it seems there was more circumstancial evidence here than with scott peterson. maybe we will never know.

It was litigated in the Florida courts for eight years, so I think its been fully investigated.

Interestingly enough, that is the crux of the Schindler's appeal. You can see how successful that argument has been.

 

[pathdawg]

interesting summary

well i have never been there to see it myself so i dunno. all i can do is go by what others say. apparently there are doctors on both sides of the fence, neurologists on both sides, politicians on both sides, and family on both sides. so who knows i guess. it just bothers me to see that this never really was fully investigated. i mean it seems there was more circumstancial evidence here than with scott peterson. maybe we will never know.

btw, I have to ask: Where do you find these links? I mean, yikes! The last one you listed has a link for some rant by Alan Keyes. Are you serious? Even conservatives I know think he's' completely nuts!

My favorite Alan Keyes factoid: He has a daughter who came out of the closet a few months back. Of course, he banished her from his family. That, my friend, is the true face on compassionate conservatism. Nicely done, Alan, nicely done.
Last time I checked, intolerance is not a moral value.

 

[jkhamlin]

Besides exposing your blind raging hatred for Hillary Clinton (all too predictable, btw), your point makes little sense. I love the buzz word "Activist Judge", of course only utilized when a judge makes a decision that does not please the right. We should all just sit back and let the right have their way. We'll have a nice, secure theocracy in no time.

When fascism comes to America, it will be draped in an American flag.

I think one could argue that it has already come.

And one last thing: The sole purpose for the existance of FOX News is to forward their radically conservative agenda. It is not to provide news. Their "news" is actually about 80% commentary. The fact that they are so successful is truly frightening.

The CEO of Fox News is a liberal. Yes, to liberals, reporting the news without extreme leftist embelishment is considered "radically conservative." Nice buzzword BTW.
Dr. Frist personally spoke to Schiavo's neurologist. Get a grip.
A judge legislating from the bench based on partisan politics is an activist judge. The judges in this case have done that. Unfortunately there are no decent checks and balances in the Constitution for when the Judicial Branch violates the Separation of Powers Doctrine, so that is how liberals get things passed. That is called tyranny my friend. Liberal issues almost never get passed by a fair vote. They are ramrodded through by the left wing friendly bench.

 

[pathdawg]

was the idea of criminal charges litigated? i thought it was just the custody battle and the fight for the malpractice settlement that whomever won custody would win the money too.

No, the criminal charges issue you are raising is really nothing more than a wild conspiracy theory. The malpractice settlement ocurred in 1992. That money has long been spent on her care. There is no money left to win. The litigation over the last 8 years has been centered around the discontinuance of her care.

 

[jkhamlin]

Her neurologist admitted in court that her actions were not reproducible You obviously did not read my post very well.

Additionally, politicians have no objective credibility due to their partisan agendas. There is no need to defend them.

I don't get it, it seems as if you are saying that the court's little amateur medical Dx is more credible than the neurologist's.
Yes, politicians do have partisan agendas; and now, unfortunately thanks to radical left wing appointees, judges do to.

 

[pathdawg]

The CEO of Fox News is a liberal. Yes, to liberals, reporting the news without extreme leftist embelishment is considered "radically conservative." Nice buzzword BTW.

You have got to be kidding me. Seriously, put down the remote control, resist regurgitating the ridiculous radical propaganda that the likes of Sean Hannity and Ann Coulter spew, and come up with an original thought.
You'll be happy you did.

btw, if you think that the "mainstream" media (cnn, cbs, nbc, et al) is liberal, then you have obviously yet to actually meet a liberal. I hope, for the sake of your own personal growth, you will someday.

 

[pathdawg]

A judge legislating from the bench based on partisan politics is an activist judge.

Hmmm, isn't that how Bush got "elected" in the first place? Again when it pleased the right (I am sure you remember that partisan Supreme Court decision in 2000, right?) its ok. When it diverts from whatever agenda they are imposing on us, its "renegade activist judges".

Please.

 

[macman]

The CEO of Fox News is a liberal. Yes, to liberals, reporting the news without extreme leftist embelishment is considered "radically conservative." Nice buzzword BTW.
Dr. Frist personally spoke to Schiavo's neurologist. Get a grip.
A judge legislating from the bench based on partisan politics is an activist judge. The judges in this case have done that. Unfortunately there are no decent checks and balances in the Constitution for when the Judicial Branch violates the Separation of Powers Doctrine, so that is how liberals get things passed. That is called tyranny my friend. Liberal issues almost never get passed by a fair vote. They are ramrodded through by the left wing friendly bench.

The last two stories I saw on Fox told me all I needed to know. The last one was Hannity outside of the hospice in FL with some family members ranting about how they were awaiting the 'right' decision to reinsert the tube. Does that sound objective? The other story I saw was part of their main evening news broadcast and it was a piece on Bush's Medicare plan which consisted mainly of excepts from his stump speach and interviews with his preselected audience for these speeches, the last 5% of the piece was spent ridiculing the congressional democrats for their opposition. I was shocked. REgardless of your politics this has to bother you.

With regard to this case in FL, the whole thing is very sad and shows the danger of mixing religion with public policy. All I needed was one month in the ICU to see that sometimes the kindest thing you can do is let someone go in peace, and also that families will rarely agree on a plan.

btw-what ever happenened to state's rights and small government being conservative principles?

 

[Elysium]

I would just like to know where cooldreams did his neuro residency. He seems to have a lot of very interesting ideas about this case, so I imagine he must know a great deal about neuroanatomy. Can you please educate all of us about the neuroanatomy behind your claims? I think that would help me a great deal with my neuro course.

Thanks.

 

[The Virginian]

I think the reason we see so much of this case in the media is because the extreme right hoped to…

1) Gain points with the fundamentalists; and
2) Take the media attention away from DeLay and friends regarding the criminal trial in Texas on illegal PAC funding and other recent revelations of possibly illegal gifts from lobbyists.

I also think some of the newly-minted MS-I’s on this thread are going to have their eyes opened when they begin school this fall, or be very miserable for the next many years.