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Ha-ha - I see someone else appreciates efficiency as well as organization! 👍
 
I don't mean to be "that guy", but I'm not sure what a school having affiliated core sites proves exactly...except that hospitals have filled out a little paperwork and agreed to take a couple students. If there are schools putting students out in third year that don't have this, our profession really is in trouble. Affiliate agreements just mean that a hospital has agreed to take X number of students; it doesn't tell you anything about the quality of rotations, or the number of students who can rotate there. Affiliate lists also can and do change frequently.
 
DragonWell said:
I don't mean to be "that guy", but I'm not sure what a school having affiliated core sites proves exactly...except that hospitals have filled out a little paperwork and agreed to take a couple students. If there are schools putting students out in third year that don't have this, our profession really is in trouble. Affiliate agreements just mean that a hospital has agreed to take X number of students; it doesn't tell you anything about the quality of rotations, or the number of students who can rotate there. Affiliate lists also can and do change frequently.
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True, but if a school DOESN'T EVEN HAVE an affiliate list, yikes.
 
Both good points - that studying must be getting to Spiced. I was kind of wondering why he decided to start such a list in the first place. After all, we sure as hell know he goes to KCUMB. :laugh:👍
 
DrMidlife said:
True, but if a school DOESN'T EVEN HAVE an affiliate list, yikes.
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That was kind of my point...all schools have them, I am sure the OP's included. Simply having an affiliate list is not really a criterion upon which to measure the quality of 3rd and 4th year.

Good info on the quality of 3rd and 4th year is rather hard to come by IMO. There are so many examples of individuals who either had great experiences or, like the OP, terrible experiences that it's hard to come away with an objective sense of "how good" 3rd year is at a particular school. It is much more subtle and open to interpretation than simply comparing board scores. The first two years are a relatively controlled environment, but there are a whole lot more variables at play in 3rd and 4th year as people move to new locations, interact with lots of new people, and find themselves in stressful situations.
 
TexasTriathlete said:
PCOM seems to really be suffering from the lack of a hospital that says "PCOM" on it.
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Yeah thats right. And PCOM has no shortage of crap rotation slots. Some are great. But I've had a few awful months as well.
 
DragonWell said:
That was kind of my point...all schools have them, I am sure the OP's included. Simply having an affiliate list is not really a criterion upon which to measure the quality of 3rd and 4th year.
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OK, but there are a TON of new schools opening, and I don't think these should be summarily ruled out because they don't have a record. Most of the criticism of these new schools is "where are the corresponding AOA residencies for the love of God?!?!?" but 3rd/4th year rotations should be the first question.

So when I'm listening to a new school's dean prattle on about the curriculum, I'm listening for clues that he/she and his/her staff are losing sleep, bribing congressmen/women, schmoozing local/state officials, taking hospital administrators to lunch, driving around in a '72 Pinto looking for understaffed rural hospitals, and otherwise WORRYING THEIR FANNIES OFF about where their students are going to be successful and happy. I want this worry to start 10 years ago, not when the first class is in its second year.

But mostly what I'm hearing is "our state is so underserved, and there are so many hospitals, and our community is so enthusiastic, we're really not worried about rotations." This makes me want to stick a fork in my eye. In my state, the new school doesn't appear to have the imagination to consider Western's NWT, ATSU-SOMA's CHCs, or UWash's growth and all the accompanying noise of these programs as a concern.

Really I base a lot on how worried, tired, aware and still-passionate the dean, directors and faculty are.
 
DrMidlife said:
OK, but there are a TON of new schools opening, and I don't think these should be summarily ruled out because they don't have a record. Most of the criticism of these new schools is "where are the corresponding AOA residencies for the love of God?!?!?" but 3rd/4th year rotations should be the first question.

So when I'm listening to a new school's dean prattle on about the curriculum, I'm listening for clues that he/she and his/her staff are losing sleep, bribing congressmen/women, schmoozing local/state officials, taking hospital administrators to lunch, driving around in a '72 Pinto looking for understaffed rural hospitals, and otherwise WORRYING THEIR FANNIES OFF about where their students are going to be successful and happy. I want this worry to start 10 years ago, not when the first class is in its second year.

But mostly what I'm hearing is "our state is so underserved, and there are so many hospitals, and our community is so enthusiastic, we're really not worried about rotations." This makes me want to stick a fork in my eye. In my state, the new school doesn't appear to have the imagination to consider Western's NWT, ATSU-SOMA's CHCs, or UWash's growth and all the accompanying noise of these programs as a concern.

Really I base a lot on how worried, tired, aware and still-passionate the dean, directors and faculty are.
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Not only do I agree with most of your posts, you also make me laugh. 👍
 
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I just came across this thread, and although I only read about half of the OP's post (it's hard to read a rambling post without any paragraph breaks), I cannot disagree more.

I'm sorry the OP had a bad experience, but as many of you pointed out, his experience is most likely unique and not applicable to most DO schools. My school (Ohio U.) set up all rotations, and I've been based at a single hospital for 3rd and 4th year.

Then again, perhaps MY experience is unique and only applicable to me...because OU-COM rocks.
 
western/comp is opening another med center in rancho cugamonga, plus the already big number of students who will go into the arrowhead list. So i think western should have no problem with that
 
PCOM has structured 4th and 3rd year

J1515 said:
NYCOM, NSU, and UMDNJSOM all have very structured 3rd and 4th years (in fact, some say it's too structured). They tell you exactly where to go during 3rd year and some of 4th, and then you get to choose for electives.
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zhousilai said:
western/comp is opening another med center in rancho cugamonga, plus the already big number of students who will go into the arrowhead list. So i think western should have no problem with that
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When will it actually be built? In time for you to rotate there 3rd year?
 
I know that NSU for sure is trying to build a hospital, even though 3rd year sites are all locked, but they want to expand the school to the next level, problem there is a hospital less than 5 miles down the road, and the city/state don't think this area needs another hospital, neither do local docs with whom I have spoken.

I just wish the NSU people and West Regional People could all get together and make a plan, seeing as how its just a short 10 min drive up the road from our campus. Just my thoughts, kind off base, but...

Just because one person had a bad experience at one school doesn't mean the profession is doomed.

Just my 2 cents worth as an ignorant OMS-I
 
gasapple said:
Both good points - that studying must be getting to Spiced.
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Si, es verdad.

I was kind of wondering why he decided to start such a list in the first place.
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Well, for a moment we had a sort of different kind of momentum, didn't we? Sometimes, it isn't about the content so much as it is about the context. 😀
 
spicedmanna said:
Si, es verdad.
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Si, senor. Necesito usar su bano por favor porque tengo una grande cagada. 😀


spicedmanna said:
Well, for a moment we had a sort of different kind of momentum, didn't we? 😀
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Si, es la verdad.

Haha! My Honduran friend loves the Gringo Espanol. Mara salvatrucha en la casa! 👎

Hang in there Spiced! Remind me the same next year...
 
DrMidlife said:
Schools with Affiliated Core Rotation Sites

KCUMB-COM
LECOM E & B
LMU-DCOM
MSU-COM
OUCOM
RVU-COM
UNECOM
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NYCOM isn't on that list because they don't have an "affiliated hospital" (although rumor has it we're getting one! 🙂) but they do have an OPTI. The NYCOMEC system has 25+ hospitals that have rotations set aside for just NYCOM students (which is how OPTIs work). For 3rd year we have to stay within this system and the school does a "match-like" program for picking our rotations. I think this is way better than having one or 2 hospitals affiliated because it gives you a lot more variation, and if you prefer to stay at one site, they have a regional option where you're at 1 hospital for your entire 3rd year. I'm just making this point because a school not having an "affiliated" hospital doesn't mean 3rd and 4th year rotations are a free-for-all.
 
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KateGia said:
NYCOM isn't on that list because they don't have an "affiliated hospital" (although rumor has it we're getting one! 🙂) but they do have an OPTI. The NYCOMEC system has 25+ hospitals that have rotations set aside for just NYCOM students (which is how OPTIs work). For 3rd year we have to stay within this system and the school does a "match-like" program for picking our rotations. I think this is way better than having one or 2 hospitals affiliated because it gives you a lot more variation, and if you prefer to stay at one site, they have a regional option where you're at 1 hospital for your entire 3rd year. I'm just making this point because a school not having an "affiliated" hospital doesn't mean 3rd and 4th year rotations are a free-for-all.
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That list was being built on the fly by a bunch of us this afternoon, but then we ran out of steam when affiliations were debunked as any form of security. Note that PCOM, CCOM, DMU, ATSU etc. aren't on it, which is obviously wrong.
 
DrMidlife said:
That list was being built on the fly by a bunch of us this afternoon, but then we ran out of steam when affiliations were debunked as any form of security. Note that PCOM, CCOM, DMU, ATSU etc. aren't on it, which is obviously wrong.
Click to expand...

They are not on it because we all about 100 years old and dont need to defend our home. For those interested though, DMU provides student feedback of the sites, so you know what places teach well and have good path. Also word on the street is that for your core you are stationed at one place. Maybe a 2nd or 3rd year can chime in?
 
I agree that the OP may have been a bit melodramatic, but he DOES have a point. I'm a fellow MS4 DO student, and I can almost guarantee that we don't go to the same school, but the comments that the OP makes are almost identical to what myself and my classmates gripe about when we get together.

The clinical rotations in 4th year can be a major PITA to coordinate for the reasons that the OP mentioned. MD students, who have an associated medical center along with their medical school, don't have this problem. I spent as many months of my 4th year as possible in University tertiary care centers, and the difference in the quality of education versus the backwater community hospital where I spent my 3rd year was embarrassing and depressing to me. I can't tell you how many conversations I had with MD students who couldn't believe that I didn't have a 'home hospital' to do sub-internships. I'll admit, I was a bit embarrassed at times to explain how the clinical years of DO schools work. All I can say is that their 3rd year was far superior to mine.

I'm proud to be a DO, but that does not prevent me from seeing that there are significant problems with the way we are headed as a profession. Osteopathic education has some extremely serious issues to work through. The ridiculous pace of new schools opening and the lack of quality Osteopathic GME programs are two issues which the AOA has been totally deficient in addressing. I can assure you that the allopathic world (on whom we depend on to train close to 60% of DO grads) is noticing this.

Part of the reason why so little progress is accomplished in the AOA is that whenever a new way of thinking is proposed, a very vocal cadre of DOs and students rise up to decry 'the end of osteopathy' and an imminent takeover by the allopathic world. It doesn't have to be like that. Change is needed and is in fact required. But the current system by which the AOA chooses new leaders rewards those who would stifle change.
 
Excellent thread title, very appropriate. 3rd and 4th yrs are the most important years; everything else you can learn in a textbook. Make sure you look at those years when deciding on medical schools.
 
JadinSleeper said:
I agree that the OP may have been a bit melodramatic, but he DOES have a point. I'm a fellow MS4 DO student, and I can almost guarantee that we don't go to the same school, but the comments that the OP makes are almost identical to what myself and my classmates gripe about when we get together.

The clinical rotations in 4th year can be a major PITA to coordinate for the reasons that the OP mentioned. MD students, who have an associated medical center along with their medical school, don't have this problem. I spent as many months of my 4th year as possible in University tertiary care centers, and the difference in the quality of education versus the backwater community hospital where I spent my 3rd year was embarrassing and depressing to me. I can't tell you how many conversations I had with MD students who couldn't believe that I didn't have a 'home hospital' to do sub-internships. I'll admit, I was a bit embarrassed at times to explain how the clinical years of DO schools work. All I can say is that their 3rd year was far superior to mine.

I'm proud to be a DO, but that does not prevent me from seeing that there are significant problems with the way we are headed as a profession. Osteopathic education has some extremely serious issues to work through. The ridiculous pace of new schools opening and the lack of quality Osteopathic GME programs are two issues which the AOA has been totally deficient in addressing. I can assure you that the allopathic world (on whom we depend on to train close to 60% of DO grads) is noticing this.

Part of the reason why so little progress is accomplished in the AOA is that whenever a new way of thinking is proposed, a very vocal cadre of DOs and students rise up to decry 'the end of osteopathy' and an imminent takeover by the allopathic world. It doesn't have to be like that. Change is needed and is in fact required. But the current system by which the AOA chooses new leaders rewards those who would stifle change.
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What school do you go to JadinSleeper?

If no one is being specific about where the roations are crap, us pre-meds would have a hard time deciding things 😛
 
Yeah, there are plenty of hospitals in the very nearby area that could accomodate the entire class for all of the clinical years time!!! A very special hospital of their own would be real swell if they can get it running by the time we start clinicals though!

madscientist50 said:
I know that NSU for sure is trying to build a hospital, even though 3rd year sites are all locked, but they want to expand the school to the next level, problem there is a hospital less than 5 miles down the road, and the city/state don't think this area needs another hospital, neither do local docs with whom I have spoken.

I just wish the NSU people and West Regional People could all get together and make a plan, seeing as how its just a short 10 min drive up the road from our campus. Just my thoughts, kind off base, but...

Just because one person had a bad experience at one school doesn't mean the profession is doomed.

Just my 2 cents worth as an ignorant OMS-I
Click to expand...
 
JadinSleeper said:
I agree that the OP may have been a bit melodramatic, but he DOES have a point. I'm a fellow MS4 DO student, and I can almost guarantee that we don't go to the same school, but the comments that the OP makes are almost identical to what myself and my classmates gripe about when we get together.

The clinical rotations in 4th year can be a major PITA to coordinate for the reasons that the OP mentioned. MD students, who have an associated medical center along with their medical school, don't have this problem. I spent as many months of my 4th year as possible in University tertiary care centers, and the difference in the quality of education versus the backwater community hospital where I spent my 3rd year was embarrassing and depressing to me. I can't tell you how many conversations I had with MD students who couldn't believe that I didn't have a 'home hospital' to do sub-internships. I'll admit, I was a bit embarrassed at times to explain how the clinical years of DO schools work. All I can say is that their 3rd year was far superior to mine.

I'm proud to be a DO, but that does not prevent me from seeing that there are significant problems with the way we are headed as a profession. Osteopathic education has some extremely serious issues to work through. The ridiculous pace of new schools opening and the lack of quality Osteopathic GME programs are two issues which the AOA has been totally deficient in addressing. I can assure you that the allopathic world (on whom we depend on to train close to 60% of DO grads) is noticing this.

Part of the reason why so little progress is accomplished in the AOA is that whenever a new way of thinking is proposed, a very vocal cadre of DOs and students rise up to decry 'the end of osteopathy' and an imminent takeover by the allopathic world. It doesn't have to be like that. Change is needed and is in fact required. But the current system by which the AOA chooses new leaders rewards those who would stifle change.
Click to expand...

I couldn't agree more. Have no problems being a DO, but I did have a problem with how rotations were set (hit or miss), how inflexible the scheduling was (because you have 250 in the class). I went to LECOM. Thank God I am done with that medical school.

It is very simple. You will teach yourself and how hard you are willing to work will ultimately determine future. If you rely on the school you will end up at Community Hospital practicing something you never intended. If you go in with the mindset that you are on your own (which you are at LECOM) and kill the USMLE (NOT COMLEX) then you can be whatever you want.

LECOM has residencies associated with it.....it's true, but nobody in their right mind applies for them unless you are at the bottom of the class and barely passed boards. Millcreek is one biggest hole in the wall hospitals you will ever have the displeasure of visiting.
 
OK, so:

"On your own schools"
LECOM-E


This type of information is very sobering and nice to know:

The clinical rotations in 4th year can be a major PITA to coordinate for the reasons that the OP mentioned. MD students, who have an associated medical center along with their medical school, don't have this problem. I spent as many months of my 4th year as possible in University tertiary care centers, and the difference in the quality of education versus the backwater community hospital where I spent my 3rd year was embarrassing and depressing to me. I can't tell you how many conversations I had with MD students who couldn't believe that I didn't have a 'home hospital' to do sub-internships. I'll admit, I was a bit embarrassed at times to explain how the clinical years of DO schools work. All I can say is that their 3rd year was far superior to mine.
Click to expand...
 
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Shinken said:
I just came across this thread, and although I only read about half of the OP's post (it's hard to read a rambling post without any paragraph breaks), I cannot disagree more.

I'm sorry the OP had a bad experience, but as many of you pointed out, his experience is most likely unique and not applicable to most DO schools. My school (Ohio U.) set up all rotations, and I've been based at a single hospital for 3rd and 4th year.

Then again, perhaps MY experience is unique and only applicable to me...because OU-COM rocks.
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Shinken, may I ask which hospital you were based at, and how would you say your training was at that hospital?
 
DrMidlife said:
You mean this list? https://www.do-online.org/pdf/sir_postdocoptilist.pdf ?

Yes, that's an AOA osteopathic residency list. It's my understanding that there are AOA residencies that are not on this list, meaning there are residencies that are not part of a DO-school-affiliated program.
Click to expand...

On the AOA approved residency website, it appears that there are a plethora of fields and locations for AOA residencies. I am gonna sound like a fool for saying this, but I need/want to know. Is it the general consensus that AOA sites < quality of ACGME? What about hospitals that have both. Like KCUMB's core list for example, a lot of the rotation sites ( DO for the DME) have both AOA and allo residencies. If its the SAME hospital, how can the quality be different? Exuse my ignorance.
 
DiverDoc said:
On the AOA approved residency website, it appears that there are a plethora of fields and locations for AOA residencies. I am gonna sound like a fool for saying this, but I need/want to know. Is it the general consensus that AOA sites < quality of ACGME? What about hospitals that have both. Like KCUMB's core list for example, a lot of the rotation sites ( DO for the DME) have both AOA and allo residencies. If its the SAME hospital, how can the quality be different? Exuse my ignorance.
Click to expand...

Diverdoc, my man!

This is SDN, trust me, you don't want the SDN general consensus on mostly anything.

This is an area of high speculation, how often do you find people who have done residencies in both allo and osteo programs, right? not often, talk to students who have done rotations in both places - that could give you an idea, although not 100% accurate. Whatever you do, don't get your consensus from premeds hearsay.

🙂
 
DiverDoc said:
On the AOA approved residency website, it appears that there are a plethora of fields and locations for AOA residencies. I am gonna sound like a fool for saying this, but I need/want to know. Is it the general consensus that AOA sites < quality of ACGME? What about hospitals that have both. Like KCUMB's core list for example, a lot of the rotation sites ( DO for the DME) have both AOA and allo residencies. If its the SAME hospital, how can the quality be different? Exuse my ignorance.
Click to expand...

I recommend you try this question in osteo. I'd bet you're less ignorant than most premeds here, including this one.
 
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