Buyer Beware

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EDB

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I am a 4th year medical student about to graduate from an Osteopathic School and I just wanted to take the time to explain a few things to the “up-and-comer’s” because they are things that I did not understand and I wish someone would have explained them to me better before I signed up for this extortion. As Osteopathic Students, you will likely get 2 good years of sound, quality medical education. As third and fourth year students, however, many Osteopathic Schools leave their students high and dry and fending for themselves when it comes to clinical education. Schools will try to woo you by telling you that “You can do your clinicals wherever you want”. The reality, however, is that you will be paying tuition to your school so that you can personally call doctor’s office after doctor’s office and hospital after hospital, groveling with them to let you tag alone for 4 weeks so that you can get “credit” for that rotation. I am sure you can imagine the “clinical experience” gleaned from spending 4 weeks with “whoever says yes”. Sometimes you hit pay dirt and end up with someone who actually teaches you something, most of the time though, you end up as a glorified secretary/admit nurse in whatever office you end up. Didactics? Not unless you count arguing with your schools “clinical education director” about how you still haven’t found anyone who will permit you to leech their time as a tag-alone-student for next month (all for the grand price of $40,000 k a year). As for the hospitals – ha! I’ve been to 2 Osteopathic Hospitals, and , well, I’m not even getting into that b/c it’s a whole other can of worms. Let’s just say their reputations speak for themselves, with a few exceptions, of course. If you are not in an Osteopathic Hospital where everyone understands the anal rape we are experiencing, then you might be lucky enough to land a few rotations at some smaller community hospitals where the atmosphere is not at all one of a teaching hospital and you will feel like a red headed step child as the LPN’s bitch at you for putting the chart in the wrong place or some other petty thing. In some cases you will go to “a big University Center”, after you apply 6 months in advance for whatever time slot they dictate, hoping that they give you free housing, after you’ve submitted your 6 page application, along with the $80 fee and another $120 for a background check. Once you’ve gone through that heachache and waited months for them to get back to you they tell you they can take you for some time slot that is totally inconvenient for you. Of course, you will take the time slot anyway and spend the rest of the time leading up to that rotation just hoping that you don’t get a phone call that goes something like this: “Oh, by the way, what school did you say you go to? Sorry, we only accept students from LCGME schools” (ie, not you).
So, what about that $40,000 a year? Just go to any Osteopathic School’s web site and read all about their new expansions in lecture halls, anatomy labs, clinical simulation labs, etc etc etc… all designed to sucker in another 200 students a year so the dean and his minions can stuff their pockets. Not for profit my ass – there are just a few to many brand new BMW’s in the faculty parking lot for me to buy any of that nonsense. What about spending money on HOSPITALS and CLINICAL EDUCATION SITES? What about paying QUALITY, BOARD CERTIFIED physicians DECENT salaries to teach students in CLINICAL settings? What about the AOA and COCA making reforms that benefit our profession and educational standards, residency programs, and licensing protocols (COMLEX PE, most notably?).
Osteopathic Medical Education is rapidly becoming a SCAM, and right now, there seems to be no end in sight. No strong leadership… no voice, unless, of course, you count “cha-ching”. Just don’t say you weren’t warned.

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I think this would be a little easier to take seriously if you gave a school. I'm sure some schools are a pain like this, but not all of them. I thought several of the schools I interviewed with mentioned having clinical sites set up already.
 
i think this pretty much bodes for many schools that do not have their own clinical sites.

I have a personal friend in 3rd year talking about the same thing. you pay school the money for NOTHING. Since some of the schools dont even pay clinical sites so you have to scrounge for those free clinical sites.

I am telling you that it may not hit people now but it will when you are traveling all over the place to secure clinicals and housing while filling out financial aid forms for school that is taking your money for doing nothing.

You can focus alot more in your studies and clinicals when you know everything is very well structured and have stability.



OP, is this a majority opinion of all your classmates? I think this one of those big elephant in the classroom nobody wants talk about.

From my lack of knowledge, I think AOA is trying to go grow too fast and forgetting quality before quantity. people were talking about AZCOM increasing their class size by 80% in a single year. I see their intention but they are more thinking about $$$$$$. No body would allow such expansion in a single year at a MD school.

OP, you are being way harsh on the system that have produced so many great doctors. Personally, I think you should have thought of all this before sending in your deposit to the school, four years ago.
 
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This is the primary reason why I did not go to the DO school I was accepted to (or the many others where I was asked to interview at). I met a DO resident from the school I was accepted to (AZCOM) - she said that she literally lived out of her car and on people's couches for 2 years during her clinical years.

I completely agree with the OP - find a school with its own teaching hospital(s). You have no idea how important that is.
 
Well, I agree that it is good to thoroughly research a program before settling on one. However, I'd like to note that the OP is generalizing where specific analysis will be much more informative and accurate. Examine each program and find out how rotations work. Be rational rather than reactive. There are programs where you stay at one core site and do not have to move around.

For example, KCUMB does not have the issue that you describe. Third year rotations work by lottery. You pick your top three choices of rotation sites; you match at one of them and do all of your rotations at that location. As far as I know, there's usually no need to switch around to different sites. If you match at an affiliate hospital in Florida, let's say, then you will do all of your core rotations there.
 
I'd love to know which school in particular the OP is referring to. If you can't post it on here, can you PM me? Thanks!
 
If you have such varied site rotations, the school reimburse you for monthly expenses. $800/month?
 
I'd love to know which school in particular the OP is referring to. If you can't post it on here, can you PM me? Thanks!

Interesting read, I want to know this as well. PM me too, thanks!
 
...As third and fourth year students, however, many Osteopathic Schools leave their students high and dry and fending for themselves when it comes to clinical education....all for the grand price of $40,000 k a year....Osteopathic Medical Education is rapidly becoming a SCAM, and right now, there seems to be no end in sight.

I think "many" might be a bit exagerated. I've met quite a few students from other schools and it's not often that I've heard someone this angry or dissapointed. But it does bring up a valid point-- you should look at what you are getting into for your clinical years.

I don't pay anywhere near 40 grand a year, so I don't really have that problem. Money was an issue that I looked at closely when I chose my school. To me, it does make a difference, and I tell that to people quite often. I'm a bit limited, though, when it comes to rotations because my school has quite a few rules about it. We have 8 elective weeks in third year and we can do a family practice wherever we want (as long as the FP is AOA board certified), but we have to stay at a core affiliate for everything else. We have 16 weeks of electives in forth year and a rural/underserved rotation where we can go wherever, but everything else must be done with a core affiliate.

I do think you are going a bit overboard when you say "SCAM". You may have had a bad experience, but I don't think that most DO students feel the same way. The ones I know don't feel that way at least, and I know a lot of them.
 
UNE also has core rotation sites. Your selectives and elective rotations can be done somewhere else if you choose - i.e. auditions.
 
I am a 4th year medical student about to graduate from an Osteopathic School and I just wanted to take the time to explain a few things to the "up-and-comer's" because they are things that I did not understand and I wish someone would have explained them to me better before I signed up for this extortion. As Osteopathic Students, you will likely get 2 good years of sound, quality medical education. As third and fourth year students, however, many Osteopathic Schools leave their students high and dry and fending for themselves when it comes to clinical education. Schools will try to woo you by telling you that "You can do your clinicals wherever you want". The reality, however, is that you will be paying tuition to your school so that you can personally call doctor's office after doctor's office and hospital after hospital, groveling with them to let you tag alone for 4 weeks so that you can get "credit" for that rotation. I am sure you can imagine the "clinical experience" gleaned from spending 4 weeks with "whoever says yes". Sometimes you hit pay dirt and end up with someone who actually teaches you something, most of the time though, you end up as a glorified secretary/admit nurse in whatever office you end up. Didactics? Not unless you count arguing with your schools "clinical education director" about how you still haven't found anyone who will permit you to leech their time as a tag-alone-student for next month (all for the grand price of $40,000 k a year). As for the hospitals – ha! I've been to 2 Osteopathic Hospitals, and , well, I'm not even getting into that b/c it's a whole other can of worms. Let's just say their reputations speak for themselves, with a few exceptions, of course. If you are not in an Osteopathic Hospital where everyone understands the anal rape we are experiencing, then you might be lucky enough to land a few rotations at some smaller community hospitals where the atmosphere is not at all one of a teaching hospital and you will feel like a red headed step child as the LPN's bitch at you for putting the chart in the wrong place or some other petty thing. In some cases you will go to "a big University Center", after you apply 6 months in advance for whatever time slot they dictate, hoping that they give you free housing, after you've submitted your 6 page application, along with the $80 fee and another $120 for a background check. Once you've gone through that heachache and waited months for them to get back to you they tell you they can take you for some time slot that is totally inconvenient for you. Of course, you will take the time slot anyway and spend the rest of the time leading up to that rotation just hoping that you don't get a phone call that goes something like this: "Oh, by the way, what school did you say you go to? Sorry, we only accept students from LCGME schools" (ie, not you).
So, what about that $40,000 a year? Just go to any Osteopathic School's web site and read all about their new expansions in lecture halls, anatomy labs, clinical simulation labs, etc etc etc… all designed to sucker in another 200 students a year so the dean and his minions can stuff their pockets. Not for profit my ass – there are just a few to many brand new BMW's in the faculty parking lot for me to buy any of that nonsense. What about spending money on HOSPITALS and CLINICAL EDUCATION SITES? What about paying QUALITY, BOARD CERTIFIED physicians DECENT salaries to teach students in CLINICAL settings? What about the AOA and COCA making reforms that benefit our profession and educational standards, residency programs, and licensing protocols (COMLEX PE, most notably?).
Osteopathic Medical Education is rapidly becoming a SCAM, and right now, there seems to be no end in sight. No strong leadership… no voice, unless, of course, you count "cha-ching". Just don't say you weren't warned.

GTFO and stop insulting my profession:thumbdown:. The established schools are nothing like this and your testimony is worthless unless you name a specific institution. I can't take you seriously with your tone and without specifics. Your warning is thus discarded by 99 percent of those who read it.

Oh yeah... and consider what it does to the image of your profession making blanket statements like this. You're incredibly myopic.
 
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So while I think its nice the OP has warn of about the potential difficulties of setting up your own rotations...

... be aware that his opinion is not the be all end all. He seemed like a hater so I have some downtime this morning at work, and I went "a-trolling" :) for all his prior posts... they are all NEGATIVE. He uses SDN to mostly complain.

When asked if he'd ever do medicine again it was "NO... hell no." Then he said something about certified nursing assistants (CNAs) now making about 130K a year.... uh huh....waaaaaaaaay off.

Caesar says "no" to EDB's comment.:thumbdown:

Maximus D: I knew I liked your comments..... I was a Nittany Lion once as well!
 
It really is just too vague. One could do that rant about a lot of places. Without cited information and PROOF it is just claims. I mean, to some degree, it wouldn't surprise me, but the "SCAM" thing is a bit much. Lets face it, even in undergrad we are paying for the degree to some extent. College isn't THAT hard. I was paying near 30k a year to take classes that I could teach myself by just buying the books. Teaching is variable regardless of where it is. Many people just can't teach. That transfers over to BOTH MD and DO. Such is life. Suck it up, match somewhere, and move on.
 
This entire rant is meaningless without knowning the school because it definately does not apply to MOST osteopathic schools. Right now KCOM is my #1 DO choice and they already gave us their rotation site lists. Everything is clear cut and there is no "calling around" just to get your core rotations in.
 
I think he crawled back under his rock. What a miscreant.
 
Not only do we not know the school, but we don't know anything about this individual person either. All I know is that tons of successful DO's are practicing today, and they all went to school somewhere.
 
I'm all tied tied up in knots over the stupid COMLEX PE (took it last month) and I can't think of anything else. I was all set to kick back and enjoy a smooth rest of medical school before I started the residency of my dreams and now it's all set to be blown away in one word... "Failed". I can't get over it. I know that I won't know for sure anytime soon and to be honest, if the alternative is the CERTAINTY of failing, I guess I should just enjoy my limbo while it lasts until the actual damnation sets in. WTF! I did fine in all my school's "practice COMLEX PE's" and I can't think of anything I actually did differently in the real thing, but I just can't shake this feeling of impending doom. Knowing the NBOME, they'll probably let me know 1 week before graduation. Am I alone in this turmoil?


Seems like all was well until failed exam
 
Hey if I go to AZCOM I may be scrambling for rotations but at least I have a 99-100 percent of passing the exam!


passing is different than doing above average you actually need to do.
 
Touché!


I'm so excited to figure out how to do all the accents and umlauts the other day. Never needed to till now...so Í'll ábúsé thém äs mûché as póssíblé. Wøøøøøøøøøøøøøøøøøøøøøööööööö

Took me like 30 seconds for all those badboyz.
 
So while I think its nice the OP has warn of about the potential difficulties of setting up your own rotations...

... be aware that his opinion is not the be all end all. He seemed like a hater so I have some downtime this morning at work, and I went "a-trolling" :) for all his prior posts... they are all NEGATIVE. He uses SDN to mostly complain.

When asked if he'd ever do medicine again it was "NO... hell no." Then he said something about certified nursing assistants (CNAs) now making about 130K a year.... uh huh....waaaaaaaaay off.

Caesar says "no" to EDB's comment.:thumbdown:

Maximus D: I knew I liked your comments..... I was a Nittany Lion once as well!

I am by no means defending the OPs post, because I agree it is worthless but OP is right about CRNAs and they are not assistants but Anesthesiologists.
 
Touché!


I'm so excited to figure out how to do all the accents and umlauts the other day. Never needed to till now...so Í'll ábúsé thém äs mûché as póssíblé. Wøøøøøøøøøøøøøøøøøøøøøööööööö

Took me like 30 seconds for all those badboyz.

nicework
 
OP is right in that many schools do not have their own clinical sites like all MD schools and rely on affiliates all over the place. I partly agree with that frustration especially for the 3rd/4th years, where SOME schools ARE taking your $$$$ for doing nothing.

I do not know of how many of the schools exactly where they do not have their own clinical sites or pay for clinical sites vs free sites

Also, people are being too defensive instead of at least thanking the person for bringing something to light about doing your research before choosing a school.

I wanted to thank the OP for being so honest with the frustrations. Sometimes when you attend a school, you dont let out all their dirty laundry. But when you know people on personal basis, they will tell you things you dont read here.

The school's name isnt that important. It would be much easier to narrow down the list plus OP wants to remain anonymous.

People are missing the overall point and wanting to hound specific school.
 
Also, people are being too defensive instead of at least thanking the person for bringing something to light about doing your research before choosing a school.

Yes but it's not like this is the first person to ever mention doing your research before choosing a school. It's not a brand new revelation so it's not like we should be bowing down to the OP and thanking them for sharing their infinite wisdom. From what I've seen on here, most of us are doing our best to find out what is the right school for us and to seek out the opinions of others while doing so. We're not completely misguided.
 
OP is right in that many schools do not have their own clinical sites like all MD schools and rely on affiliates all over the place. I partly agree with that frustration especially for the 3rd/4th years, where SOME schools ARE taking your $$$$ for doing nothing.

I do not know of how many of the schools exactly where they do not have their own clinical sites or pay for clinical sites vs free sites

Also, people are being too defensive instead of at least thanking the person for bringing something to light about doing your research before choosing a school.

I wanted to thank the OP for being so honest with the frustrations. Sometimes when you attend a school, you dont let out all their dirty laundry. But when you know people on personal basis, they will tell you things you dont read here.

The school's name isnt that important. It would be much easier to narrow down the list plus OP wants to remain anonymous.

People are missing the overall point and wanting to hound specific school.

+1
 
NYCOM, NSU, and UMDNJSOM all have very structured 3rd and 4th years (in fact, some say it's too structured). They tell you exactly where to go during 3rd year and some of 4th, and then you get to choose for electives.
 
No one listen to the OP! Just get as defensive as you can and ignore the OP's story even if it is a legit criticism of schools with no teaching hospital, especially newer schools with shaky/non-existent clinical teaching sites. If you just pretend hard enough that it's not a problem, it won't affect you.
 
I've passed all of my exams including CS but whoever wrote that I am bitter, it's true.... I am bitter. This gig has sucked the soul out of me and from reading some of your replies, it's no wonder (with colleges like this - who needs enemies?). Not all Osteopathic Schools scatter their students to the wind, but beware the ones who do, and there are many. It's not that I didn't do my research, it's that I got an extra-sugar-coating when I asked questions, ie, "You get to set up the rotations yourself which is really great for you... you can go wherever you want". In a nutshell, I was suckered and at the end of the day it was my fault and I accept that repsonsibility. I can still say that no one ever told me how difficult and pain-staking it would be to schedule my entire 3rd and 4th year so I thought I might try to help someone else out by letting them know. For the record, yes, I am living out of my car (it's a van actually, down by the river) and have been for almost 2 years. I hope my post did shed some light for some of you. I'm not naming my school b/c this problem extends to more than one school and it has received national attention and been addressed in public forums like this one countless times before. You can all do your own research, and I hope that you do.
Jezz, last time I'll ever post anything negative about anything that has to do with Osteopathy. You guys are merciless.
 
...whoever wrote that I am bitter, it's true.... I am bitter. This gig has sucked the soul out of me and from reading some of your replies, it's no wonder (with colleges like this - who needs enemies?).

There's your real issue, which will continue to stub you until you shift your attitude. You have control over how you face your challenges, but sometimes, not which challenges get placed in front of you, whether by circumstance, consequence, or timing. Don't blame others for your bitterness; you are the only one responsible for your actions and your attitude. You have the power to shift it.

Not all Osteopathic Schools scatter their students to the wind, but beware the ones who do, and there are many. It's not that I didn't do my research, it's that I got an extra-sugar-coating when I asked questions, ie, "You get to set up the rotations yourself which is really great for you... you can go wherever you want". In a nutshell, I was suckered and at the end of the day it was my fault and I accept that repsonsibility. I can still say that no one ever told me how difficult and pain-staking it would be to schedule my entire 3rd and 4th year so I thought I might try to help someone else out by letting them know. For the record, yes, I am living out of my car (it's a van actually, down by the river) and have been for almost 2 years. I hope my post did shed some light for some of you. I'm not naming my school b/c this problem extends to more than one school and it has received national attention and been addressed in public forums like this one countless times before. You can all do your own research, and I hope that you do.

Yes, that is what some folks here were trying to say; definitely do your research and make an informed choice. I think we appreciate the reminder, but it is not by any means novel. Your post seemed to blame and generalize across ostepathic institutions, when it is clear that not all schools have the problem you are pointing out. You were tending towards exaggeration in your language. I agree that we are facing significant problems in our profession right now, some of which you alluded to in your post. They are absolutely worth discussing. It would have been better to approach it in a similar way as you did in the paragraph above.

Jezz, last time I'll ever post anything negative about anything that has to do with Osteopathy. You guys are merciless.

You seem too sensitive about this. The reaction you received is pretty much normal, given the overriding tone of your post. Don't let your bitterness ruin the good message you are trying to give.
 
I'm totally on board with being 100% paranoid when choosing a school, using threads like this to educate ourselves about what issues should cause paranoia, using the OP as a cautionary tale, etc. (The OP is a she, by the way, not that this matters.)

I'm also totally appalled that people think their tuition money is being pocketed. This is immature and naive whining. I encourage you to pursue an understanding of how organizations are funded and operated. Yes, there is waste. Yes, there is inefficiency. But I challenge you to go sit down with the dean (at your undergrad or at your med school) and ask to see the school's annual budget, and ask the dean to explain how tuition is spent, and ask what other funds are paying for facilities etc. Ask about why you're paying tuition to do rotations that the school doesn't fund. It's not mysterious. It costs a HUGE AMOUNT OF MONEY to run an organization that has buildings, employees (thus payroll taxes and benes), insurance, legal costs, accreditations, subscriptions, federal/state/local licensing, faculty recruiting, admissions, etc. This isn't a church picnic. Your tuition for years 1 and 2 covers maybe 60% of the cost to educate you those two years, and you're still paying for years 1 and 2 with your 3rd/4th year tuition. Go find out for yourself and stop talking out of your fanny about how schools squander your tuition money.

When you see a difference between in-state and OOS tuition, that means that the state is funding in-staters. The school is spending the OOS tuition number on each student. So Michigan State is spending over $50k per student when you add in state funding, and that's not all it's spending because the state & feds help fund the hospital ed programs too.

All this said, I am in awe of LECOM for running its programs on $25k tuition, with no outside funding. That's an efficient no-frills organization. PBL is a comparatively cheap program to run, but how do they pull this off under a didactical model at the mothership? Amazing.
 
the OP brings up a relevant point, and it's one that's weighed on me quite a bit recently. I think the attitude of the pre-osteopathic forum is "go wherever I get it, I'll be a doctor either way" which is the wrong approach to take. If you've spent this much time in your education thus far, than you'd realize how important your medical school actually is. That being said, how many Osteopathic schools actually have a teaching hospital? None of the ones I interviewed at and was accepted at thus far have one, PCOM doesn't have one anymore...
 
PCOM seems to really be suffering from the lack of a hospital that says "PCOM" on it.
 
OUCOM has the CORE--with 22 hospitals, each student has to match their choices. i believe they have specifically reserved these spots depending on the number of seats offered to each class (which they keep at ~100). so some schools do make sure students are covered...
 
i wanna know what school you go to. i have DOs in my family that have had great experiences in the schools they've gone to.....10 different schools. Where do you go to school? I don't buy anything coming from someone that refuses to tell me where they go to school when trashing osteopathic medicine. you have the legitimacy of Saul from Stewart University. hahaah
 
No one listen to the OP! Just get as defensive as you can and ignore the OP's story even if it is a legit criticism of schools with no teaching hospital, especially newer schools with shaky/non-existent clinical teaching sites. If you just pretend hard enough that it's not a problem, it won't affect you.

Well, I agree that this phenomenon can be seen with greater frequency in newer schools (that's why I think that the AOA needs to stop approving new schools and fix some of the more general overarching problems). Nevertheless, the OP isn't making a novel point. It is very obvious, but still appreciated. Still, the bitterness and over-generalization is optional, in my opinion.

I'm not sure it's a problem with having "no teaching hospital." It is a problem with schools not setting up core rotations properly, for one reason or another. The more well-established, or better orchestrated, Osteopathic medical schools, for the most part, do not have this issue. However, I would agree that having a teaching hospitals on campus may, in fact, be a good thing. Yet, I believe that it takes a huge amount of funding to establish and maintain a teaching hospital. It is the norm at the allopathic medical schools because the medical school is merely a college in a larger university, which is going to have the necessary budget and funding to have such a hospital. Osteopathic medical schools tend not to be aligned with larger universities and suffer a bit, in my opinion, as a result. There are some osteopathic medical schools who have aligned themselves with established universities and/or do have teaching hospitals. Yet, it strikes me that having a teaching hospital doesn't necessarily make these schools better. Being "inbred" at an institution (that is, doing basic sciences, rotations, and residency all in the same school/location) doesn't magically make everything okay; in fact, I think it's overrated. At the end, as long as core rotations are set up in one location--a decent location with decent didactics, I think it's okay. I think no school should be making you change places as you rotate; that's simply :thumbdown:

the OP brings up a relevant point, and it's one that's weighed on me quite a bit recently. I think the attitude of the pre-osteopathic forum is "go wherever I get it, I'll be a doctor either way" which is the wrong approach to take. If you've spent this much time in your education thus far, than you'd realize how important your medical school actually is. That being said, how many Osteopathic schools actually have a teaching hospital? None of the ones I interviewed at and was accepted at thus far have one, PCOM doesn't have one anymore...

Yup, caveat emptor, I agree. However, as I mentioned above, having a teaching hospital doesn't necessarily make it a better school, in terms of preparing you for, or helping you obtain a good residency. Can it arguably make it easier? Perhaps. Whatever you choose, know what you are getting yourself into.
 
Can someone make a list of schools that have affiliated sites and ones that leave you alone? It would be a great help to us Premeds. Or at least post what your school does?
 
In my investigations Ive found a few schools that have exceptional rotations coupled with residency programs. Such as MSU, PCOM, LECOM, Nova, OSU, Jersey, PCSOM, and TCOM. What I cant find is an established school that does not have core sites or a highly organized program. There are a few newer schools that might have issues with rotations but they will be solidified in the future. In addition, the list I present was only a few schools I looked at and by no means is meant to discredit another school. Happy trails all!
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lokhtar
Can someone make a list of schools that have affiliated sites and ones that leave you alone? It would be a great help to us Premeds. Or at least post what your school does?

Schools with Affiliated Core Rotation Sites

KCUMB-COM

OUCOM:
http://ohiocore.org/
 
I agree with the OP that all schools are not created equal when it comes to clinical rotations. For those of you considering going the DO route, choose your school wisely - going with an older established school won't ever hurt. As for the newer schools...it's a crap shoot. I've seen what the OP describes first hand, although, thankfully it wasn't me.
 
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