Calc-Based Physics vs Real Physics (Calc III,DiffEq-based)

[oran berry]

This is a slight twist on the classic "which physics class should I take?" thread. I'm a math/biochem major that tested into upper level physics (Calc III-IV, DiffEq-based). My most recent concern is that the upper level Mech/EM Theory classes might be too far removed from the MCAT material to be immediately useful to me. This brings me to an alternative and now very tempting option: swallowing my pride and dropping down to take plain ol' calc-based physics so that I can expend the least amount of effort but still appear relatively on-par with other applicants, at least in this basic academic sense.

This is an issue I would normally bring to a faculty member at my school, however, it seems as if the physics department does not know much about premedical studies, and, similarly, the premedical faculty does not know much about the physics department beyond "take algebra-based, calc-based if you're brave". Don't get me wrong, I enjoy intellectual pursuits, but I would also like to consider practicality here as well. It's not as if rigor of classes matter to adcoms, no matter which school I apply to (even harvard hst), right?

So my question here can be framed as: In the interest of medical school apps and the MCAT, given that I'm a math major premed student, should I take the DiffEq/CalcIII-IV based Physics or should I drop down and take normal Calc I-II based Physics?

To give you an idea of the differences between each class, I'll supply links to the respective MIT OCW pages.
Mechanics and E&M Theory, Calculus I-II assumed
Mechanics and E&M Theory, Calculus III-IV, DiffEq's assumed

Does anyone have any thoughts on the matter? I'm particularly looking forward to hearing the responses from physics majors =)

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[BigRedBeta]

For med schools: They won't care. You're not going to gain any bonus points.

For the MCAT: The math on the physics portion of the MCAT does not require anything past algebra, so calc-based physics won't give you an advantage there. From what I've heard calc makes physics easier to understand. Whether that's true or not, there are a huge number of medical students and physicians who only took algebra based physics. So with that being the case, going to even more advanced physics is of no inherent benefit. But that doesn't mean there aren't benefits for you. You may understand and remember the content better and be able to apply it better.

One consideration though - if you end up taking an MCAT prep course from the commercial test-prep companies, when they cover physics, they'll use algebra.

 

[gravitywave]

i suspect you are capable of mastering the material in either course, and quite frankly they are both overkill for anything related to med admissions. so, this is the point at which other matters should become more important than which of these sequences will better prepare you for the MCAT/med school.

you should be looking at which of these courses has the superior faculty/grading curve, and take that one. calc does make physics more intuitive, if one has the intuition to handle calc in the first place (doesn't sound like that's an issue in your case )

 

[Lokhtar]

The second set of courses are going to be way, way, way more depth than you'll ever need. Take it if you're truly interested in the very fundamentals of how mechanics works.

 

[IvyHopeful20]

Looking at the second set of courses, the course is extremely hard and detailed. I took something similar because I really loved it, but you should be ashamed of yourself if you take that course and then get a single answer wrong on the physics portion of the mcat.

From the course website, I'm looking at these questions (from the course website):

These are awesome questions but much harder than what'll you get in 99% of courses. I'd recommend it for physics majors or if you're looking to do some graduate level work in physics or engineering.

 

[gravitywave]

These are awesome questions but much harder than what'll you get in 99% of courses. I'd recommend it for physics majors or if you're looking to do some graduate level work in physics or engineering.

excellent points, i'm ashamed to say that my post was written strictly from the perspective of successful admission to med school. if OP would feel intellectually stifled by taking the less challenging course, s/he should consider that, too. just don't come back here crying if tragedy ensues: it's an uphill battle doing pre-med at MIT, from what i understand.

 

[deuist]

Doesn't matter. You can take which ever you want as far as med schools are concerned. Since you're a math major, however, I'll like to believe that you would want the challenge of a more rigorous course.

 

[IvyHopeful20]

Doesn't matter. You can take which ever you want as far as med schools are concerned. Since you're a math major, however, I'll like to believe that you would want the challenge of a more rigorous course.

Unfortunately medical school admissions, as it is structured, brutally punishes students who seek out academic challenges.

 

[gravitywave]

Unfortunately medical school admissions, as it is structured, brutally punishes students who seek out academic challenges and fail.

fixed

 

[IvyHopeful20]

Maybe. In several courses a B- is considered doing 'decent' and a B is 'really good' as far as that course is concerned - but that's not going to cut it for med school admissions. And the hours you put in might detract from other grades/activities as well...so it can have a larger negative effect than just one grade.

Some of those courses at my school haven't given out an A in like three years. You'll learn an unbelievable amount of things, but.....you have to make the decision yourself. Admission committees don't have time to check out every individual course.

 

[gravitywave]

Some of those courses at my school haven't given out an A in like three years.

ok you win. going math/physics is shooting yourself in the foot in a lot of ways. but then, i'm already on record as having said that the best way to get into medical school is by doing a non-BCPM major at a top-tier undergrad, followed by a high caliber post bac w/ meaningful research experience. so i already tacitly agree with you. but there are ways to manage the situation - as your major and GPA attests to. there's challenging yourself, and then there's throwing yourself into that proverbial brick wall.

 

[GrigoriPerelman]

Well here's my experience..

Last year I remember taking complex analysis, applied real analysis and surface geometry along WITH physics I (Regular Calc Based) !

It was really frustrating sitting in that class learning about vectors and periodic functions things you ought to know before you start college...I couldn't stand the class...

If I were you id take the advanced physics at least you'll have fun learning something different ! Good Luck !

 

[IvyHopeful20]

ok you win. going math/physics is shooting yourself in the foot in a lot of ways. but then, i'm already on record as having said that the best way to get into medical school is by doing a non-BCPM major at a top-tier undergrad, followed by a high caliber post bac w/ meaningful research experience. so i already tacitly agree with you. but there are ways to manage the situation - as your major and GPA attests to. there's challenging yourself, and then there's throwing yourself into that proverbial brick wall.

Yea. Granted the class sizes are small so it's not like 200 people a semester for three years (it's usually 20-30 people per year), but still these courses are designed for majors and really designed to be hard - to prepare you for grad school and make you think critically about possibly contributing something original - to make original contributions to some of those fields is different than coming up with new experiments in biology.

I'm not saying you shouldn't, but there is no way to get the admissions committee to understand courses like that - and if you tried, there's a very good chance it'll come off looking like excuses.

There was one math course I took my junior year that took me 50 hours a week to get an A. The problem sets were absolutely insane. Obviously some people got away with doing less, if you were naturally good, but not that much less (I'd say a minimum of 25 hours for an A for an exceptional math person).

I learned more in that course than an entire year of courses. But it killed my perfect GPA upto that point, I couldn't do research for the next two and a half months, I had to quit volunteering, etc....

Would I take that course again? Yea, but I was lucky in that I had a high GPA so I could afford a grade or two that was below average. Other people aren't that lucky - and imagine if you were stuck with more than one of those courses during one semester. It'd be fine if you were aiming for grad school where the schools know about the courses and will think highly of your 'B', but for pre-meds: .

 

[musicmajor]

Because of timing I chose to take algebra based Physics. On one hand I wish I would have finished Calc II before taking physics because algebra based physics starts to seem pretty useless once you are studying electromagnetism in Physics II. The questions that algebra based physics are very basic and don't give you a very thorough understanding of the material. On the other hand, the course is very easy and this frees up time to do a lot of other things like volunteering at a hospital, doing research, and studying for courses that are going to be more directly applicable to the coursework in medical school.

 

[IvyHopeful20]

Oh and I agree with you....major in the humanities, do some research and volunteering, get a 4.0. Do a top flight post bac...and you're set.

 

[Isoprop]

In my MCAT physics class, the folks who took calc-based physics had no advantage over the trig-based folks. So I'm not sure if the "real" physics class will give you an edge.

 

[oran berry]

Thank you very much to all the users that replied; your opinions definitely contributed to the decision-making process. I'm a second-year that is nearly finished with the math major. The fact that Math-55 problem sets (one of the hardest classes in the country at harvard, wiki it) don't scare me speaks volumes about the upper level classes I decided on taking. Unfortunately, a couple (notably the grad-level course) sacked my GPA, even if what I had received placed me near or even into the top 5% percentile.

Perhaps taking an insane physics course might not be in my best interest if I don't plan on pursuing the subject matter beyond just those two classes, meaning that it would benefit me greatly to take the courses that would most likely boost my GPA..even if it means swallowing my pride and ignoring the intellectual challenge (difficult!).

I would still like to hear other thoughts on the matter but I think I'm almost set on taking the lower level classes and just reading up on the upper level stuff on my own. Once again, thanks everyone! I'm glad you all replied so swiftly.

 

[MilkmanAl]

Oh and I agree with you....major in the humanities, do some research and volunteering, get a 4.0. Do a top flight post bac...and you're set.

Why a post-bac? I'd just take the pre-reqs during school. I know UNC's poli sci and English majors only required 8 courses (LAWL?) within the discipline when I was there, so you'd have tons and tons of extra time to fill up. I'm totally with you on the easy-A path to med school, though.

 

[gravitywave]

Why a post-bac? I'd just take the pre-reqs during school. I know UNC's poli sci and English majors only required 8 courses (LAWL?) within the discipline when I was there, so you'd have tons and tons of extra time to fill up. I'm totally with you on the easy-A path to med school, though.

i can see your point, esp when English would only have taken 8 courses. but generally that's the exception. even at a LAC, a major usually will require 10-12 courses, grad reqs another 10-12, and then if you throw in a pre-med track, you're not looking at very much maneuverability. so much for that minor in German or Psych. Taking the fifth year just gives you more time to get everything done.

I think the recent trend, esp. at top schools, has been to look to people who truly have a broad intellectual base. medicine is specialized, but it isn't for specialists adcoms seem to love the whole "bent arrow" thing, and it sets you apart from the Bio/Biochem/Physio majors that they see so much of.

 

[ucsfstudents]

Take the simpler physics course.