Call all pharmacists, urgent action needed!

[sadcat]

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Call all pharmacists, urgent action needed!
Hi fellow pharmacists,

NABP will meet and discuss about TOEFL iBT requirement on October 28-29. Please check the September newsletter, http://www.nabp.net/ftpfiles/newslet...nabp092008.pdf, page 149-150.

Please help the group to communicate to NABP by sending the letter:

http://www.urch.com/forums/pharmacy-...ask-force.html (Final version - Petition to NABP -Task Force)

 

[Rumplestiltazepam]

Call all pharmacists, urgent action needed!
Hi fellow pharmacists,

NABP will meet and discuss about TOEFL iBT requirement on October 28-29. Please check the September newsletter, http://www.nabp.net/ftpfiles/newslet...nabp092008.pdf, page 149-150.

Please help the group to communicate to NABP by sending the letter:

http://www.urch.com/forums/pharmacy-...ask-force.html (Final version - Petition to NABP -Task Force)

Thank you for the info.

I will be writing a letter to NABP explaining why I think the TOEFL requirements need to be more strict. I will also be contacting fellow students to write letters, I know many of them feel the same way I do. The standards need to be raised if anything, not lowered.

 

[Aznfarmerboi]

👍👍👍👍

Thank you for the info.

I will be writing a letter to NABP explaining why I think the TOEFL requirements need to be more strict. I will also be contacting fellow students to write letters, I know many of them feel the same way I do. The standards need to be raised if anything, not lowered.

 

[j10c]

You mentioned the TOEFL ibt score requirement is too high for foreign pharmacist, it is unfair. However, do you ever think about the foreign pharmacist who passed the TOEFL ibt. If it is lowered, will it be fair to who passed with hard work?

Call all pharmacists, urgent action needed!
Hi fellow pharmacists,

NABP will meet and discuss about TOEFL iBT requirement on October 28-29. Please check the September newsletter, http://www.nabp.net/ftpfiles/newslet...nabp092008.pdf, page 149-150.

Please help the group to communicate to NABP by sending the letter:

http://www.urch.com/forums/pharmacy-...ask-force.html (Final version - Petition to NABP -Task Force)

 

[confettiflyer]

I hate people who complain about requirements that other people, who simply put a little bit more effort into, would easily pass.

Oh no! I can't pass! I must protest because it's racist/sexist/xenophobic/unfair! They must make it easier because I can't do it!! wahhhh!!!

I, too, will be writing a letter asking for the stricter requirement. My family came here late in their lives learning English as a 2nd language and thrived. There's NO reason why anyone else shouldn't be able to do the same. Freakin' whiners!

 

[iphetamine]

Just out of curiosity, you guys graduate with 150k of student loans, how much did you pay during school?!? How much does tuition cost?

 

[rxforlife2004]

Hi Lols,

Fantastico! What the heck are you talking? Counseling? Don't make me laugh please. Let alone to counsel, you don't have guys time to sneeze. If you guys are mature and understand well, we are asking the NABP to use a face to face interview to measure English skill of foreign graduates. Without knowing it, you are supporting our cause. That is fantastic. Our argument is how on earth we are expected to score 26 on speaking when the very native speakers and some of you score 22 and 23 on a lousy and flawed test? We know that it isn't about counseling or speaking. It is about false pride. American Education is fantastico. When the facts speak the other way.

Telling ignorants doesn't make any sense but if you have ears and eyes please read this one below:
The 1500 hours of internship was intended to teach us what you called in you nonsense posting of "C-O-U-N-S-E-L-I-N-G" WHEN IN REALITY WE ALL KNOW THAT EVERY PATIENT IS COMPALINING OF LACK OF COUNSELIN DUE TO OVERWORKED PHARMACISTS.

Anyway, I don't think you have the mental caliber to comprhend what we are talking and walking.

Merci Beaucoup.

Yashak

This , one more time, has proven to us that you have no clue of what is going on around the pharmacy world. Not because we don't have time to counsel implies that we're in a shortage of pharmacists! Even if we have 10000000000000 pharmacists lining up for jobs, it is still the same. Why? Because the companies want so. They don't wanna pay to hire more, get it? Get the concept. It isn't about the US lacking the # of pharmacists, but the corp is the bad guy...who makes u think as such there's a shortage of pharmacists (with a bunch of statistic BS #, of course....).

 

[PumpkinSmasher]

I hate the stench of curry especially in my work environment. I judge people by how they treat my nasal passages, do them wrong and I will make your life a living hell. Farting is all in good fun though.

 

[nafcillin]

THere are layoffs and cutbacks in my area and there is definitely no shortage that I see. Despite the lack of need for foreign pharmacists I wouldn't have a problem with them practicing if the education was the same, which is clearly isn't from my experiences. If they tighten the rules a little bit and you are determined enough, you will become a pharmacist.

 

[WVUPharm2007]

Maybe in some rural areas, u'll get a job easily there, but the question is "Will u work there? in such hot/dry- no life condition?"

Hey, **** you.

Signed, guy who thinks city living is lame as hell.

 

[WVUPharm2007]

Do you know that majority of pharmacy graduates from this nation get burned in five years?

In contrast, you can elect to be thrown off of a cliff and if you DON'T fly away, you are proven to not be a witch.

The more you guys post, the more evident it becomes that there is a reason you don't pass English equivalency exams. You just told me that after 5 years we all get burned. Perhaps you meant "burnt out." Being burned would be a rather extreme punishment for just about everything.

It also doesn't surprise me that the average American gets a crap score on said exam. It's the average American. You are required to be much smarter than the average American. Ergo, one should expect to have to perform better than them.

In addition, based upon that schedule of classes, a foreign pharmacist would be lost as hell in a clinical situation.

With the economy going sour, economic protectionism is about to kick in. You should be fortunate they even ALLOW a foreign grad to come in and practice. Stop making excuses, get done what needs to get done, and if you are good enough, you'll practice. If not, you won't. It's that simple.

 

[pharmkelly]

In contrast, you can elect to be thrown off of a cliff and if you DON'T fly away, you are proven to not be a witch.

The more you guys post, the more evident it becomes that there is a reason you don't pass English equivalency exams. You just told me that after 5 years we all get burned. Perhaps you meant "burnt out." Being burned would be a rather extreme punishment for just about everything.

It also doesn't surprise me that the average American gets a crap score on said exam. It's the average American. You are required to be much smarter than the average American. Ergo, one should expect to have to perform better than them.

In addition, based upon that schedule of classes, a foreign pharmacist would be lost as hell in a clinical situation.

With the economy going sour, economic protectionism is about to kick in. You should be fortunate they even ALLOW a foreign grad to come in and practice. Stop making excuses, get done what needs to get done, and if you are good enough, you'll practice. If not, you won't. It's that simple.

I totally agree with you.

 

[confettiflyer]

I believe WVU just came in here and kicked some face.

 

[j10c]

In contrast, you can elect to be thrown off of a cliff and if you DON'T fly away, you are proven to not be a witch.

The more you guys post, the more evident it becomes that there is a reason you don't pass English equivalency exams. You just told me that after 5 years we all get burned. Perhaps you meant "burnt out." Being burned would be a rather extreme punishment for just about everything.

It also doesn't surprise me that the average American gets a crap score on said exam. It's the average American. You are required to be much smarter than the average American. Ergo, one should expect to have to perform better than them.

In addition, based upon that schedule of classes, a foreign pharmacist would be lost as hell in a clinical situation.

With the economy going sour, economic protectionism is about to kick in. You should be fortunate they even ALLOW a foreign grad to come in and practice. Stop making excuses, get done what needs to get done, and if you are good enough, you'll practice. If not, you won't. It's that simple.

Agreed

 

[BMBiology]

I am for more pharmacists but it is dishonest and illogical to say that by lowering standards, patient care will improve. Standards should be maintained.

I also don't believe comments like this is warrented:

there is NO SHORTAGE!!! Now get back to your homeland and provide pharmaceutical care there! Thank you very much.

Competition is what make this country great. If you are worried about competition, then perhaps you lack the skills to compete. I am not going to tell you to leave this country because you dont agree with me, but you certainly don't represent what makes this country strong and great.

 

[MountainPharmD]

Once again, i have to repeat this: there is NO SHORTAGE!!! Now get back to your homeland and provide pharmaceutical care there! Thank you very much.

Exactly.....we have plenty of Pharmacists. With all the new pharmacy schools opening up we certainly do not need to make it easier for foreign pharmacists. Stay in your own country and practice pharmacy.

I am with the earlier poster...make the English requirements stricter.....Ever call a CVS staffed by Indian H1B visa holders. On hold for 15 minutes, then I can't understand a single word they say because of the accent.

 

[OzPharmacist]

Please do not make generalised assumptions about "foreign pharmacists". I am a pharmacist from Australia sitting the FPGEE this year and I have no problem with the English language (obviously as it is my native language) and I have extensive clinical experience. I am not here to take jobs from Americans, I am here as my fiancee is an American and I wish to continue being a pharmacist. In Australia I was the manager of a pharmacy for 8 years and I have been a consultant pharmacist for 5 years. A consultant pharmacist involves visiting nursing homes and also private patients in their own homes, talking to them about their medications, checking for adverse effects, interactions etc. and then writing a report to the doctor which includes recommendations about changes to drug therapy if required, which requires adequate clinical knowledge and experience.
To other foreign pharmacists, I do not think the English requirement should be lowered, as communicating to people, both patients and prescribers, is critical to our practice as a pharmacist. As a native English speaker I found the TOEFL very easy and received a score of 118, but can't comment from a non-native English speaker's perspective.

 

[tinu]

sadcat,
I'm a foreign trained pharmacist currently completing my internship in CA. I've gone through all those hoops and I understand how you all feel. Even though I'm empathetic, I would suggest that you don't post such messages here. Most of the students on this forum go to a pharmacy school in the US. I understand their side of the story as well, b'coz I've a roommate that is a pharmacy student in the US. They are not wrong when they mention things like huge class load, huge educational loan, plus the drama of NABP suspending NAPLEX in 2007 (which hurt students that were scheduled to take NAPLEX, were supposed to start working and paying off their loans). Even if these student do end up signing the petition to NABP (technically they shouldn't b'coz TOEFL iBT doesn't affect them) I'm not sure how it would help you. You need to target right crowd and you'll find that crowd on testmagic forums.
I'm sure you must have read how your post has caused these students to react. Try to stay away from posting such aggravating messages.
I hope you take my post in right spirit. I sincerely wish you good luck.

 

[Aznfarmerboi]

Please do not make generalised assumptions about "foreign pharmacists". I am a pharmacist from Australia sitting the FPGEE this year and I have no problem with the English language (obviously as it is my native language) and I have extensive clinical experience. I am not here to take jobs from Americans, I am here as my fiancee is an American and I wish to continue being a pharmacist. In Australia I was the manager of a pharmacy for 8 years and I have been a consultant pharmacist for 5 years. A consultant pharmacist involves visiting nursing homes and also private patients in their own homes, talking to them about their medications, checking for adverse effects, interactions etc. and then writing a report to the doctor which includes recommendations about changes to drug therapy if required, which requires adequate clinical knowledge and experience.
To other foreign pharmacists, I do not think the English requirement should be lowered, as communicating to people, both patients and prescribers, is critical to our practice as a pharmacist. As a native English speaker I found the TOEFL very easy and received a score of 118, but can't comment from a non-native English speaker's perspective.

Welcome mate, I highly respect the pharmacy system over there in Aus, NZ, among others like England. I am sure nobody here would object you coming over.

 

[jiaguy]

Some of the Pharmacy systems work very well, Aus, GB, NZ all have semi-prescribing pharmacists, even Canada with its Bpharm has proper training programs. In these countries pharmacists are reimbursed very well also. These guys from the Mid East, however, are just jokes; they can't even write grammatical english how are they to handle MTM?

I go to school with a majority of Muslims (Detroit), there isn't one person who doesn't speak fluent English. If you can't communicate, how are you to answer questions? You couldn't even work in the biggest Arab community in the states. With the proliferation of low cost, low quality, pharmacy schools here in the US there will be more than enough graduates. Most choice markets are aready at saturation. The US produces enough counter stuffers itself.

 

[gustavo32]

Have no time to read all this.
Keep it simple,let's start emailing the Board of Pharmacy and asking them to act in favor of US pahrmacists,please.
God Bless America.

 

[FORTLIVINGROOM]

Its up to you nobody is forcing you to do this. I think you are a studying here in The United States. Currently there are many foreign pharmacist are working here with the native pharmacist. I want to point out one more thing that according to ETS own survey a native American got 22/30 in speaking section of Toefl ibt and NABP is asking for 26/30. Most of the foreign pharmacist are getting 24 which is even higher than natives. Nabp allow to take FPGEE after very strict evaluation of foreign pharmacist credentials therefore it is not true that they are behind in their professional abilities.

You can't even write English correctly. Why the hell would I want you counseling one of my patients? Or more importantly, one of my loved ones????

 

[FORTLIVINGROOM]

I go to school with a majority of Muslims (Detroit), there isn't one person who doesn't speak fluent English. If you can't communicate, how are you to answer questions? You couldn't even work in the biggest Arab community in the states.

Nowhere in Detroit is there a majority Muslim community. Dearborn, yes. Detroit, no.



And what's up with people ragging on Middle Eastern students. I find the Asian students harder to understand myself.

 

[bananaface]

That letter page is dead, so I can't read whatever it is that we are supposed to read.

Obviously, the OP has demonstrated why we have the TOEFL in place. However, it's kind of ******ed to make every Canadian pharmacist take the TOEFL before they become licensed in the US. The ones who speak French as their primary language, certainly. But the ones who speak English as their first language should be assumed competent in English.

 

[Goober]

My wife is a pharmacist and I can absolutely assure all of you that in the current job market there is not an huge shortage of pharmacists. There are many pharmacists that have been laid off and are looking for work. Yes you heard me- they can't find a job within a major metro area or adjacent suburbs. Yes there are jobs out there, but once you are settled in with house, family and kids and spouse with a job, you can't just get up and move to another state. There are many new schools in the USA that are pumping out the more and more graduates. Making it easier for foreign pharmacist is a step in the wrong direction.

 

[YiYaoYue]

I was laughing when I read one of the foreign students saying that they want to pay back their own country for giving them free education. How exactly are you helping your own country if you move to the US and work here and pay taxes here? It sounds more like a kick in the face to all the taxpayers that gave you free education. Can i go to your country and get my pharmacy license for free tuition and go back to my country? I bet anything you'll be picketing against it.

Pharmacists are already having trouble trying to communicate with other health professionals that aren't native English speakers (heavy accents) and they would easily pass the TOEFL and any other English proficiency exam since they been in the US much longer. How much more understanding do Americans have to be? It is already awkward to ask someone to repeat what they said or write an email because it is hard to understand what one is saying.

And talk about asking at the wrong time. If your going to be pointing ignorance on the part of the US students who don't understand the "outsider." Well the same can be said if your looking to live in another country and have no clue about their current situation.

 

[Orchid17]

There is no longer a pharmacist shortage... pharmacy corporations made sure of that by leveling the playing field. I don't know if many of you are aware of it, but these big corporations would try to meet with pharmacy schools and their deans to convince them to increase the pharmacy school admission rates on the basis of this supposed "shortage"... maybe they even gave money to the schools to "persuade" school officials to the same conclusion.. who knows. Obviously their only agenda is, more pharmacists=more competition=more pharmacists willing to work for less. I wouldn't put it past these companies to pull strings to make it easier for foreigners to work in the US. This goes for all jobs, not just pharmacy.

The proof? ....
*If you look at the pharmacy profession 7-10 years ago, it was much more lucrative. Companies would offer huge sign-on bonuses, cars, profit-sharing and huge benefits. Now? The only time you get a sign-on bonus is if you're willing to work in rural or unsafe areas.
*As for schools, years ago the admission rate for my pharmacy school, (I'm pretty sure for other schools it was similar) was around 60 or so students from an applicant pool of 4000+. So only the best of the best were admitted. Nowaday for most schools, if not all, the admission rate/yr is 100+, and students would be admitted just to meet a certain quota. Not to mention an increase number of pharmacy schools.

More pharmacists= more competition, but this does not mean improved patient care or more qualified pharmacists. It's just the opposite. Now we're faced with the "needle in the haystack" when it comes to competent workers.

I am not against foreign workers coming to the US, as long as they are QUALIFIED AND COMPETENT. Making any standards easier is unfair to everyone, even foreigners. How do you think a qualified foreigner who bust their butt feels, when they have to receive less pay because there are so many other unqualified people willing to work for less. If people really care about improving patient care they would want testing standards to be MORE DIFFICULT not easier.

As for educational standards being better here in the US, it's reasonable to say that IT IS better. Why else would foreign affluent families and working families in third-world countries try so hard to send their children to go study abroad in the US or Europe? Why else would people immigrate? Because the opportunites are BETTER. They want to give their kids a BETTER education. Honestly, the main reason foreigners come here to work has nothing to do with improving patient care. It's either for personal reasons, for higher pay, or whatever else.

Standards should be more difficult for US residents/citizens as well as foreigners. Please stop whining about exams and standards being too difficult, especially when it involves healthcare... patients' lives are at stake. If you don't pass the first time, try again. If after multiple tries you still don't pass, you shouldn't be practicing anyways.

 

[Orchid17]

Anyhow, good luck to everyone =)

 

[maliciousdoc]

Orchid17, I totally agree with your points. How do you suggest the pharmacy industry to solve the problems you stated above? And I would love to hear your insights regarding what we (students and practitioners) should do to improve the current status of pharmacy, that is, it is reaching equilibrium?

 

[AlNik]

I decided initially that I would ignore this thread as it edges on racism, Nazism, and is definitely xenophobic. Unfortunately, my sense of righteousness and my low tolerance level for the bigotry just wouldn't let go.

Firstly, let me address our immigrant offspring rxforlife2004. Did you ever spend any time thinking about what made America great? In my opinion - liberal economy (not protectionism), ability to attract new talent from all over the world and the "land of possibilities" element. Everyone could make it to the USA and become someone within one life time. That is not possible in socialist Europe, and probably wasn't possible in communist China from which your parents or grandparents left in search of a better life.

Who are you to close the gate for new immigrants? What gives you the right to deny other people what you have enjoyed your whole life? Remember, if you start with immigrants, pretty soon someone will ask a reasonable question - who is an immigrant? Can we send all the Chinese back to China, too? It's happened already in Switzerland where many political parties are looking for a way to get rid off the Arab and Eastern European population.

What makes America great is the fact that it gives a chance to people to prove themselves. Rest assured, if some of the new pharmacists discover that there is no need for them and that they can not live better here than they would have in their home countries, they will leave. But, do not refer to them as cheap labor as they compete for same jobs and same wages as you do. Nobody is allowed, by law, to hire a pharmacist and pay him below what an American would be paid.

You complain about their poor English and poor clinical expertise. Well, since you have described yourself as a mega-expert on the subject and a fluent speaker of English, you shouldn't be threatened by the immigrants, should you? Neither should the American future graduates.

American is a LIBERAL economy (read a few articles about what that means) which implies that it allows the competition to improve the efficiency of the market, which makes everyone better off.

I hope that moderator of this forum is not a xenophobe and that he will stop people like rxforlife2004 in their mental masturbation on this forum.

Shame on all of you. You do not represent America, at least not the one that became the leader of the free world. All this goes for the rest of the bigots on this forum, too. Thank you very much (as on of you put it).

 

[Loulla]

Once again, i have to repeat this: there is NO SHORTAGE!!! Now get back to your homeland and provide pharmaceutical care there! Thank you very much.

Why dont "U" go back to your homeland??? Obviously from ur pic u're not a native american....maybe u were just born in the US , but u're obviously not a native one! So how about u going back to ur homeland coz u're obviously an arrogant racist who doesnt deserve to be living in the US!