Can A Primary Care Physician do Basic Science Research?

[letsgetstarted1234]

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Is this unrealistic of me to want to do both?

Im interested in primary care but also basic science research in a particular field

I'm wondering if i've shot myself in the foot saying I want to do both in my secondaries.

My volunteering and experiences as a patient make the longevity of care and resulting relationships in primary care really attractive to me.

While academically, I'm really interested in a particular field of research after working in that kind of lab for several years full time. I also have a personal interest in the research as well as a patient.

@Catalystik @LizzyM @gyngyn would love your input!

 

[DubbiDoctor]

The vast majority of primary care physicians work full time to provide primary care to patients, which is in great demand. Most physicians of all specialties, for that matter, do not conduct basic science research. Sounds like you may be interested in pursuing an MD-PhD, which, after extensive training, would allow you to run your own lab while spending some time (conventionally one day a week, compared to four days in lab) providing care to patients.

 

[letsgetstarted1234]

The vast majority of primary care physicians work full time to provide primary care to patients, which is in great demand. Most physicians of all specialties, for that matter, do not conduct basic science research. Sounds like you may be interested in pursuing an MD-PhD, which, after extensive training, would allow you to run your own lab while spending some time (conventionally one day a week, compared to four days in lab) providing care to patients.

ah okay that makes a lot of sense.

🙁 applying this cycle as just an MD. hope i didn't shoot myself in the foot saying i wanted to do both in my secondaries. O_O

 

[aeshnoidea]

ah okay that makes a lot of sense.

🙁 applying this cycle as just an MD. hope i didn't shoot myself in the foot saying i wanted to do both in my secondaries. O_O

You did not. Many MDs do basic science research. In fact, if you take a quick look at research faculty for any school you will see a healthy mix of PhDs, MD/PhDs, and MDs.

I have also been told by MDs and PhDs that getting an MD is a perfectly suitable path for someone who wants to do research, especially since if research doesn't work out well you can always practice medicine whereas a PhD does not have the same luxury.

 

[aldol16]

It really depends on the specific circumstances. It's not unrealistic but it's not entirely probable that you're going to end up doing that either. Basic science work sucks up a lot of time and there is a lot of grueling labor that is done by grad students in the lab, not the MDs. If you're in the basic sciences as an MD, you either have a lot of street cred - enough that someone is giving you enough money to run a lab (funding is the hard part since federal funding is easier to get as an MD/PhD than as an MD alone when you're just starting out) - or you're in charge of the translational/clinical aspect of the project.

 

[MedicineN'Jazz]

ah okay that makes a lot of sense.

🙁 applying this cycle as just an MD. hope i didn't shoot myself in the foot saying i wanted to do both in my secondaries. O_O

You can apply MD/PhD anytime until the 2nd year of medical school. Don’t rush your decision now. I’d hate for you to shoot yourself in the foot. Most schools take less than 20 MD/PhDs, and the smaller schools usually take under 5.

 

[letsgetstarted1234]

You can apply MD/PhD anytime until the 2nd year of medical school. Don’t rush your decision now. I’d hate for you to shoot yourself in the foot. Most schools take less than 20 MD/PhDs, and the smaller schools usually take under 5.

Okay that makes me feel a bit better.

on the question of primary care doing basic science research, do you know if thats common?

 

[gyngyn]

on the question of primary care doing basic science research, do you know if thats common?

It's uncommon.
They are more likely to collaborate on clinical research if they are faculty at a medical school.

 

[eteshoe]

Okay that makes me feel a bit better.

on the question of primary care doing basic science research, do you know if thats common?

I'm confused by what basic science research you're interested in pertaining to the primary care realm. Basic science (at least w/ many MD/PhDs) tends to focus w/i a disease context or physiological phenomena, etc. Clinical research would be way more synergistic w/ primary care aspirations and wouldn't really require a 5 year break to intensely study something. You could just tack a research year and get decent exposure and experience to shape your later training (e.g. residency, jobs, etc).

 

[aeshnoidea]

Okay that makes me feel a bit better.

on the question of primary care doing basic science research, do you know if thats common?

It is less common because the intended outcome of medical school is for you to become a practicing physician rather than a scientist. But that does not make medical school a bad path for someone interested in research. On the contrary, many MD/PhDs and PhDs at my school have straight up told me that going to medical school is better than going to graduate school, even if the end goal is to do basic science research. A PhD is not necessary to do research in the slightest.

Even though it is uncommon, there are a lot of MDs that do basic science research so I am certain you will be able to track one down at whatever school you will go to and ask them some questions directly from the source.

Clinical hours takes up a lot of time, though, so most likely someone else will be doing the majority of the bench work for you if you choose to juggle both clinical work and research. I also know many MDs that are not practicing and do only research.

 

[MyOdyssey]

It is less common because the intended outcome of medical school is for you to become a practicing physician rather than a scientist. But that does not make medical school a bad path for someone interested in research. On the contrary, many MD/PhDs and PhDs at my school have straight up told me that going to medical school is better than going to graduate school, even if the end goal is to do basic science research. A PhD is not necessary to do research in the slightest.

Even though it is uncommon, there are a lot of MDs that do basic science research so I am certain you will be able to track one down at whatever school you will go to and ask them some questions directly from the source.

Clinical hours takes up a lot of time, though, so most likely someone else will be doing the majority of the bench work for you if you choose to juggle both clinical work and research. I also know many MDs that are not practicing and do only research.

What is the typical path for MD-only individuals who end up doing basic science (as opposed to clinical) research?

 

[Goro]

What is the typical path for MD-only individuals who end up doing basic science (as opposed to clinical) research?

The MDs I've known who did this did fellowships. We had a pulmonologist in my post-doc lab, and I knew tons of Hem/Onc fellows when I was at Sloan-Kettering.

 

[aldol16]

What is the typical path for MD-only individuals who end up doing basic science (as opposed to clinical) research?

Like full-time basic science? You can do a post-doc after med school if you want although that's more typical for MD/PhD graduates. You'll also find a lot of foreign MDs who are trying to get residency/fellowship positions here come and do fellowships in basic science research labs to try to build up their resume and connections. But the point of going to medical school if you're not an MD/PhD is to practice clinical medicine. If you're that interested in basic science research, then perhaps you should consider internal MD/PhD admissions at your school.

 

[MyOdyssey]

Like full-time basic science? You can do a post-doc after med school if you want although that's more typical for MD/PhD graduates. You'll also find a lot of foreign MDs who are trying to get residency/fellowship positions here come and do fellowships in basic science research labs to try to build up their resume and connections. But the point of going to medical school if you're not an MD/PhD is to practice clinical medicine. If you're that interested in basic science research, then perhaps you should consider internal MD/PhD admissions at your school.

I'm still a premed and haven't applied, much less been admitted. I'm definitely weighing the pros and cons of going the MD/Phd route once I do apply.

 

[aldol16]

I'm still a premed and haven't applied, much less been admitted. I'm definitely weighing the pros and cons of going the MD/Phd route once I do apply.

I would ask myself these questions:

1) Do I want to pursue a career that's mainly focused on research or mainly focused on clinical medicine?

2) What percentage of my time do I want to devote to each in my future career?

3) If a significant percentage is devoted to research, what kind of research would I be happy doing?

If you want to devote more than half of your time to research and you know for sure that you want to do basic science research, then MD/PhD should be very strongly considered.

 

[MyOdyssey]

I would ask myself these questions:

1) Do I want to pursue a career that's mainly focused on research or mainly focused on clinical medicine?

2) What percentage of my time do I want to devote to each in my future career?

3) If a significant percentage is devoted to research, what kind of research would I be happy doing?

If you want to devote more than half of your time to research and you know for sure that you want to do basic science research, then MD/PhD should be very strongly considered.

That's good advice. I noticed from your other posts that you have a PhD and are now pursuing a MD.

So you seem to be a good person to ask this question of: apart from doing wet lab research, what other experiences - particularly clinical -- should I seek out to help me make that call as to clinical work v. research.

FYI, I've had about a year and a half of experience with wet lab research that ties directly into potential new cures for a certain type of pernicious disease. That specialty is very academic medicine oriented. My clinical volunteering experience has been limited and entirely related to a different type of specialty.

 

[aldol16]

So you seem to be a good person to ask this question of: apart from doing wet lab research, what other experiences - particularly clinical -- should I seek out to help me make that call as to clinical work v. research.

FYI, I've had about a year and a half of experience with wet lab research that ties directly into potential new cures for a certain type of pernicious disease. That specialty is very academic medicine oriented. My clinical volunteering experience has been limited and entirely related to a different type of specialty.

This is a fairly complex question so I'll try my best to do it justice. Basically, it boils down to that first question. Do you want to spend the majority of your career doing wet lab work/running a wet lab or do you want to spend the majority of your career practicing clinical medicine? Now I know that in the real world, it's hardly so clear cut and dry. There are MDs who do basic science and there are MD/PhDs who don't ever use their PhDs. But I don't think it's useful to make decisions based on cases that aren't typical of the norm.

I would start off by talking with other lab members. You are likely to have MD/PhD students in your lab who are a great resource. I went from PhD to MD so I can't speak as to that specific track. I want to spend most of my career practicing clinical medicine and not research. Talk to the grad students too to see what the PhD track looks like. Post-docs are also a great resource. These people are all very willing to share their experiences and to help you make an informed decision. Try to get a feel for what it's like to work in basic science - not only the day to day activities/tasks but also the intellectual component of it. What I mean by that is that you'll recognize that most PIs aren't in lab. They don't do that anymore. They sit in their offices, keeping up with the recent literature, and come up with new ideas to test and novel hypotheses. Then they write grants and submit papers. MD/PhD PIs may see patients on top of that too. I think it's useful to have a good sense of the endpoints of both trajectories so you know what you're aiming for. You go through different experiences to get there but I would think about the endpoint versus the process. What I mean is that what you do in grad school isn't what you do as a mid-career PI. You have to be okay with that if becoming a PI and running a lab is your goal. Same for medicine. Your schedule in residency isn't reflective of what your schedule is like as an attending. So I wouldn't make a decision based on what you expect in residency but rather what you expect as a mid-career attending.

You've had a year and a half of wet lab work. Reflect on your own experiences. Do you like doing what you're doing? Do you have a lot of new ideas and hypotheses that you would want to test? Is this your environment?

 

[aeshnoidea]

That's good advice. I noticed from your other posts that you have a PhD and are now pursuing a MD.

So you seem to be a good person to ask this question of: apart from doing wet lab research, what other experiences - particularly clinical -- should I seek out to help me make that call as to clinical work v. research.

FYI, I've had about a year and a half of experience with wet lab research that ties directly into potential new cures for a certain type of pernicious disease. That specialty is very academic medicine oriented. My clinical volunteering experience has been limited and entirely related to a different type of specialty.

You will have to adjust your experiences based on whether you are trying to apply for MD-PhD or MD only.

While MD applicants don't necessarily need too much research experience, MD/PhD applicants focus very heavily on research. It will be important to show heavy involvement in at least one project, with authorship on a publication being a good indicator of this. That being said, authorship does not guarantee admission into a program nor is it the best indicator of who will be a good MD/PhD student. For this, you will absolutely need a stellar letter of recommendation from the highest authority in your lab (usually the PI). The strong letter of rec from a PI is as important as GPA and MCAT for MD/PhD prospective students.


Because research is very time intensive and often runs at odd hours depending on what your project needs, you may find yourself not having much time. This is to be expected, and a successful MD/PhD applicant does not necessarily have as much volunteering because of how much time they spend in the lab. That being said, you will want to cast a wide net when applying, and you will likely want to apply to both MD and MD/PhD programs to increase your chances of getting into something. Not having as much volunteering/clinical experience won’t hurt your chances of getting into an MD/PhD as much as it would hurt your chances of getting into an MD program.


While getting some sort of clinical job is good for MD applicants (EMT, CNA, MA), it is not the only way. Getting a clinically related job will give you a lot of clinical hours, but for an MD/PhD applicant, the research is more important. So the best thing for you to do is continue working in your lab (if you have good relations with the PI and have confidence you can get some sort of leading role in a project eventually in addition to a strong letter of rec) and volunteer (both clinical and non-clinical) on the side.


Ideas for clinical volunteering: hospital, free clinic, hospice, etc.


Ideas for non-clinical volunteering: anything related to an underserved population (migrant workers, homeless, and people with disabilities)


Clinical research experience is not as valuable as basic science research in applying for MD/PhD, nor does it substitute for the need for clinical experience. Clinical research may get you published faster, but for MD/PhD you will want basic science research experience no matter what.


No matter what you choose to do, make sure you can stick to your commitments and don’t spread yourself too thin. Long term commitment in a few activities is a lot better than sporadic, short-term commitments.

 

[MyOdyssey]

You will have to adjust your experiences based on whether you are trying to apply for MD-PhD or MD only.

While MD applicants don't necessarily need too much research experience, MD/PhD applicants focus very heavily on research. It will be important to show heavy involvement in at least one project, with authorship on a publication being a good of this. That being said, authorship does not guarantee admission into a program nor is it the best indicator of who will be a good MD/PhD student. For this, you will absolutely need a stellar letter of recommendation from the highest authority in your lab (usually the PI). The strong letter of rec from a PI is as important as GPA and MCAT for MD/PhD prospective students.


Because research is very time intensive and often runs at odd hours depending on what your project needs, you may find yourself not having much time. This is to be expected, and a successful MD/PhD applicant does not necessarily have as much volunteering because of how much time they spend in the lab. That being said, you will want to cast a wide net when applying, and you will likely want to apply to both MD and MD/PhD programs to increase your chances of getting into something. Not having as much volunteering/clinical experience won’t hurt your chances of getting into an MD/PhD as much as it would hurt your chances of getting into an MD program.


While getting some sort of clinical job is good for MD applicants (EMT, CNA, MA), it is not the only way. Getting a clinically related job will give you a lot of clinical hours, but for an MD/PhD applicant, the research is more important. So the best thing for you to do is continue working in your lab (if you have good relations with the PI and have confidence you can get some sort of leading role in a project eventually in addition to a strong letter of rec) and volunteer (both clinical and non-clinical) on the side.


Ideas for clinical volunteering: hospital, free clinic, hospice, etc.


Ideas for non-clinical volunteering: anything related to an underserved population (migrant workers, homeless, and people with disabilities)


Clinical research experience is not as valuable as basic science research in applying for MD/PhD, nor does it substitute for the need for clinical experience. Clinical research may get you published faster, but for MD/PhD you will want basic science research experience no matter what.


No matter what you choose to do, make sure you can stick to your commitments and don’t spread yourself too thin. Long term commitment in a few activities is a lot better than sporadic, short-term commitments.

Most of day to day interactions are with the post-doc in the lab (in my current lab) and in my previous lab with a PhD (also faculty) who worked under the PI (who was mostly busy with higher level commitments and didn't spend much time in the lab).

In situations like that (which I imagine are common), do I still get a letter from the PI? Do I get separate letters from both the PI and the post-doc?

@aldol16

 

[aeshnoidea]

Most of day to day interactions are with the post-doc in the lab (in my current lab) and in my previous lab with a PhD (also faculty) who worked under the PI (who was mostly busy with higher level commitments and didn't spend much time in the lab).

In situations like that (which I imagine are common), do I still get a letter from the PI? Do I get separate letters from both the PI and the post-doc?

@aldol16

That is normal for an undergrad...You will need to ask both your mentor/supervisor and your PI to collaborate on a letter of rec for you. Signature from the PI or both the PI and the mentor will be sufficient, but you want whoever worked closest to you (and can best vouch for your abilities) to be the one writing the letter.

 

[aldol16]

Most of day to day interactions are with the post-doc in the lab (in my current lab) and in my previous lab with a PhD (also faculty) who worked under the PI (who was mostly busy with higher level commitments and didn't spend much time in the lab).

In situations like that (which I imagine are common), do I still get a letter from the PI? Do I get separate letters from both the PI and the post-doc?

Get a letter from the post-doc and get the PI to countersign it. You need the faculty signature.

 

[Goro]

Like full-time basic science? You can do a post-doc after med school if you want although that's more typical for MD/PhD graduates. You'll also find a lot of foreign MDs who are trying to get residency/fellowship positions here come and do fellowships in basic science research labs to try to build up their resume and connections. But the point of going to medical school if you're not an MD/PhD is to practice clinical medicine. If you're that interested in basic science research, then perhaps you should consider internal MD/PhD admissions at your school.

Or just PhD