Can a psychiatrist teach psychology?

[Hinglish]

Hey guys,
I know this is planning WAY far ahead into the future, but I would be interested in teaching psychology someday part time (at the college level). I was just wondering if this is possible while being a psychiatrist. I know the degree is a doctorate of medicine, which makes me wonder if they would be qualified to do this. Thanks in advance!

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[erg923]

Well this depends what course(s). Abnormal psych you would be qualified for obviously. I know some behavioral neurologists that teach cognitive neuroscience, and one that even teaches cognitive psychology. I friend told me that Glen Garber teaches a course in time-limited psychodynamic psychotherapy at Baylor's Psy.D program. However, he is regarded as quite an acomplished researcher in that area.

 

[billypilgrim37]

Some of the lower level courses could be taught by trained monkeys, which reflects the sad way undergraduates are taught psychology, and is not a reflection of the rich field itself. A friend of mine taught an abnormal psych course after M3 year to pay for her MPH tuition.

 

[Therapist4Chnge]

Not typically, though there are exceptions. If there is an expertise there is no reason they shouldn't.

 

[whopper]

A psychiatrist teaching a psychology course is unconventional, and that lack of convention itself will make it difficult for it to happen.

Some of the lower level courses could be taught by trained monkeys

Several courses I took in undergrad were taught by teaching assistants who were people still working on their master's degrees, so there is some truth to that, and again as mentioned above, that's no criticism of psychology itself. Several courses in college no matter the field are taught by TAs.

Here is how it is unconventional. Typically, a psychology professor does not make as much as a psychiatrist. The psychiatrist who takes a psychology professor's job will not make as much, and consider that psychiatrists graduate with debt often times about double that of a Ph.D. psychologist. Psychiatrists are taught things with a clinical & medical model in mind. Psychologists aren't. Psychologists are also taught the behavioral sciences in more of a pure model vs a medical model. E.g. we psychiatrists are taught the about mental illness etiology, method of diagnosis, labs & treatment, while psychologists learn everything about the behavioral sciences including ergonomics, workplace politics, workplace efficiency, sensory & perception etc, regardless of mental illness or not.

In college, while a psychology major, I learned that sunlight may affect the hypothalamus in a manner that causes females to enter puberty sooner vs later. That was never taught in medical school, nor any psychiatric curriculum I've ever seen.

Psychiatrists also think about things differently. E.g. they are heavily medically biased which does change outlook. E.g. there is no medication which has an FDA approval for the bonding effects of oxytocin, and few doctors I know of even know that oxytocin has that benefit. If teaching a psychopharmacology course, would a psychiatrist teach this given that the effects of oxytocin in the behavioral sciences is not taught in a psychiatric curriculum?

For the benefit of psychology students, you need to teach the material in a manner that is compatible with their own needs & desires. E.g. they have to eventually take psychology boards. Several things in a psychiatric curriculum are not tested on their boards. It'd be unfair to them to teach them a course that does not cover what they need to know, & from what I understand would make that course not accreditted. In fact I have not read the guidelines that allow for a course to be accreditted, and that may include requiring a psychology degree of some sort.

If you become a psychiatrist, and really have the bug to teach, you can still do so in a medical school, residency or to other medical professions such as nursing. If you want to teach in psychology, make sure its kosher.

 

[Hinglish]

Right on. Thanks for your input guys!

 

[Ollie123]

I think it would depend on the course. Certainly many of the more biological courses would seem fitting for an MD, as would psychopharmacology. Certainly, teaching a course in say...DBT, would be fine if the psychiatrist was sufficiently trained in it.

Something like social psychology? Doubtful. I'm actually not even sure abnormal would be the best fit. It would depend on the psychiatrist in question and their willingness to deviate from a purist medical model (i.e. disease = present or absent). I've seen a wide variance in adherence to this model among the psychiatrists I've interacted with, and those at the extreme end of are probably ill-suited to teach abnormal. Of course, there's also the question of biological reductionism...I think many abnormal courses taught by psychologists do the students a disservice by ignoring biology entirely, but at the same time teaching that depression = serotonin and addiction = dopamine without getting into the billion other aspects of each would not be an improvement😉

So I guess my answer is that it depends on the psychiatrist in question, what course they want to teach, their knowledge base, and their willingness to be flexible.

I will say that as a psychiatrist, I assume you're talking about adjuncting and not being core faculty, so don't expect much in the way of pay (likely a few grand per course...they definitely are not going to pay you an MD-level salary). Accreditation is only going to be an issue if you want to teach at the graduate level. Certain courses may need to be taught by psychologists, but enough psych students take med school courses (neuroanatomy for example) that there must be teaching options for non-psychologists.

 

[whopper]

I took psychopharm, psychoendocrinology, drugs & human behavior, abnormal psychology, & physiological psychology in college as a psychology undergrad major, and these were the courses that one would think correlates most with psychiatry in a psychology curriculum.

I can tell you---several aspects in these courses are not taught in a psychiatric curriculum. E.g. animal studies on oxytocin, sexual activity of birds, sense of direction (which is in part controlled by iron concentration in certain cells), behavior of bats eating frogs, injections of female pig fetuses with testosterone, the concentrations of testosterone or estrogen causing differences in behaviors that in no way were seen as pathologic (e.g. random new area seeking behavior), etc.

Even the things that are taught in psychiatry & psychology--different things were emphasized, and there was much more or less concentration on certain areas. E.g. Harlow's studies on monkeys I studied in much more depth than in psychology, where its a brief mention that most psychiatrists only study for their boards.

For that reason, the only way I can see a psychiatrist teaching a psychology course is if that psychiatrist already has a graduate level degree in psychology or is doing a just a handful of classes as a type of visiting professor.

 

[Ollie123]

I think you overestimate how much most professors know about the subjects they teach😉 Certainly the curriculum would need to include things way outside the scope of what is typically considered psychiatry. The question in my mind is whether the person teaching the course has sufficient background to understand the concepts, and sufficient motivation to learn from there. Chances are, the psychologist teaching you that material wasn't terribly familiar with it either until he had to put together the syllabus.

If we take a broad course like abnormal, I'm not sure there is a person on the planet who is truly an "expert" in it. Its just too broad. There's plenty of people who REALLY know their stuff, don't get me wrong. However, no one can know everything about it, since even becoming an expert on a single disorder takes decades.

If a person can understand the material and convey it effectively, I think that meets or exceeds expectations at most schools. A psychiatrist would probably have to put in more effort, since many of the concepts step outside the realm of what would be covered in med school/residency. I think there is sufficient overlap that someone with sufficient motivation could read some textbooks, some articles, etc. and get a sufficient background to teach the course. Would they be ideal? Not necessarily, but believe me, few people are "ideally" suited for the courses they teach.

 

[psychgirl95]

Bump! I know this is an old thread, but I have the same question. Has anyone on here actually done this? How'd it go?

 

[splik]

i'm not really sure what the question is. this seems rather bizarre inasmuch as psychiatrists in the US do not really learn much (if any) psychology. if the question is do psychiatrists teach undergrads - the answer is yes, child psychiatrists in particular do. there is a child psychiatrist who teaches a development course to harvard undergraduates. NYU has a whole child mental health minor led by Jess Shatkin, a child psychiatrist (it brings in $11 million a year) and i believe the child psychiatry fellows teach classes on this. I am teaching a sexuality course next year to undergrads, and taught another course this year (but more social sciences rather than psychology). it is certainly possible if you have an interest or expertise in a particular area. but you are not going to be teaching psychology courses in general (why would you?) however developing innovative undergraduate courses is actually big money for colleges, more so than graduate studies.

 

[psychgirl95]

i'm not really sure what the question is. this seems rather bizarre inasmuch as psychiatrists in the US do not really learn much (if any) psychology. if the question is do psychiatrists teach undergrads - the answer is yes, child psychiatrists in particular do. there is a child psychiatrist who teaches a development course to harvard undergraduates. NYU has a whole child mental health minor led by Jess Shatkin, a child psychiatrist (it brings in $11 million a year) and i believe the child psychiatry fellows teach classes on this. I am teaching a sexuality course next year to undergrads, and taught another course this year (but more social sciences rather than psychology). it is certainly possible if you have an interest or expertise in a particular area. but you are not going to be teaching psychology courses in general (why would you?) however developing innovative undergraduate courses is actually big money for colleges, more so than graduate studies.

The question is if a psychiatrist can occasionally teach undergraduate psychology courses, assuming they're relevant to what the psychiatrist is familiar with (such as abnormal psychology or an autism class if the psychiatrist specializes in autism). Thanks for the response 🙂. It does seem like this is possible, which is good (and yeah, I was actually wondering about child psychiatrists).

 

[erg923]

The question is if a psychiatrist can occasionally teach undergraduate psychology courses, assuming they're relevant to what the psychiatrist is familiar with (such as abnormal psychology or an autism class if the psychiatrist specializes in autism). Thanks for the response 🙂. It does seem like this is possible, which is good (and yeah, I was actually wondering about child psychiatrists).

Um, if you are a psychiatrist, perhaps you could teach...gasp....psychiatry. Every psych residency program needs faculty, right? Why would you want to spend your free time adjuncting with undergrads (most of whom are relatively unintrested in whatever you have to say) for a whopping 2 grand a semester?

 

[psychgirl95]

Um, if you are a psychiatrist, perhaps you could teach...gasp....psychiatry. Every psych residency program needs faculty, right? Why would you want to spend your free time adjuncting with undergrads (most of whom are relatively unintrested in whatever you have to say) for a whopping 2 grand a semester?

Uhm... maybe because I want to? 😉
Apparently psychiatrists teaching undergraduate psychology courses isn't unheard of, so obviously some people just want to do it. Different strokes for different folks.

 

[sirius08]

There is significant variance among college professors in terms of discipline expertise, research training, and teaching skills. Many college courses are now taught by part-time adjunct lecturers, who are generally paid far less and receive few if any full-time benefits, and whose credentials range from BAs with no post-graduate training to PhDs desperate for work in an insanely competitive tenure-track job market. Tenure-track professorships usually require the highest degree of training in the discipline, which for psychology would minimally be either a research-based or clinical PhD plus significant research and teaching experience during graduate school. Medical training in psychiatry, even throughout residency, provides nothing close to that kind of training, so you may not understand the material as deeply, and/or be able to communicate it as effectively, as someone who has been preparing for years for an academic career.

 

[michaelrack]

Uhm... maybe because I want to? 😉
Apparently psychiatrists teaching undergraduate psychology courses isn't unheard of, so obviously some people just want to do it. Different strokes for different folks.

Perhaps psychgirl95 intends to work part-time and work lower paying positions while her husband does more productive work and brings home the real $.

I have no problem with that.

 

[Mad Jack]

Um, if you are a psychiatrist, perhaps you could teach...gasp....psychiatry. Every psych residency program needs faculty, right? Why would you want to spend your free time adjuncting with undergrads (most of whom are relatively unintrested in whatever you have to say) for a whopping 2 grand a semester?

Not everyone wants to make medicine the cornerstone of everything they do. I'd love to teach undergrads anatomy, biology, or similar at the local community college when I'm done with training, just to mix things up and give back. It's not all about the money.

 

[erg923]

Not everyone wants to make medicine the cornerstone of everything they do. I'd love to teach undergrads anatomy, biology, or similar at the local community college when I'm done with training, just to mix things up and give back. It's not all about the money.

I noticed you left out psychology.

The OP asked if this is possible. It is possible. It is not likely, and it seems a rather cumbersome way to satisfy ones pedagogical desires when there is a much more practical path to teaching the behavioral sciences.

 

[psychgirl95]

Perhaps psychgirl95 intends to work part-time and work lower paying positions while her husband does more productive work and brings home the real $.

I have no problem with that.

Not everyone wants to make medicine the cornerstone of everything they do. I'd love to teach undergrads anatomy, biology, or similar at the local community college when I'm done with training, just to mix things up and give back. It's not all about the money.

Yes, this is it exactly, Mad Jack. I don't want to inspire students who are already on the track I'm thinking about pursuing (psychiatry), I want to help inspire those who haven't decided yet. A psychiatrist teaching abnormal psychology and being able to describe her day to day life would definitely make the decision for me easier, and I can imagine other students would feel the same way as well.

 

[splik]

there were psychiatrists who guest lectured on my abnormal psychology class for undergrad. but in fairness, most psychiatrists don't learn anything about abnormal psychology proper, models of psychopathology, or about the concept of mental disorder. this should all be part of an advanced or even introductory abnormal psychology class. i know the standard of undergraduate education is woeful in this country and the average psychiatrist could probably get away with doing the course, but doesn't mean they should.

it would not be unheard of for an academic psychiatrist to be giving a guest lecture on an abnormal psychology class, or even an anthro or sociology class. but given particular talks on one's area of expertise is quite a different thing to leading a whole course that goes beyond it. there is nothing stopping your learning this stuff as you go along however. I would much prefer to teach senior undegrads or grad students than freshman students it can be pretty painful. that is the other issue - psychiatrists often don't have any training or experience in teaching younger undergraduates. i have to admit i am completely out of my depth, and they are pretty unforgiving. i get the worst evaluations from my freshman students, evaluations that are looked at for promotion etc...

 

[Babylon95]

Bump! I know this is an old thread, but I have the same question. Has anyone on here actually done this? How'd it go?

You're cute.

 

[notdeadyet]

I'd love to teach undergrads anatomy, biology, or similar at the local community college when I'm done with training, just to mix things up and give back.

Your average psychiatrist is likely more qualified to teach community college anatomy and physiology than undergraduate psychology. It's a matter of qualification.

If the OP wants to scratch the teaching itch while also providing a worthwhile educational experience for his/her students, OP might consider guest lecturing on various topics in various classes. We are all qualified to lecture on a topic tied into years of work specialization or research.

I've done this and loved it. But ask me to teach a semester psychology undergraduate course? Even if it's in abnormal psychology, your average psych MA is much more qualified. I'd have ethical issues with the invitation.


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[vistaril]

Your average psychiatrist is likely more qualified to teach community college anatomy and physiology than undergraduate psychology. It's a matter of qualification.

Agreed....I wouldn't feel qualified at all to teach such a course.

 

[clausewitz2]

Your average psychiatrist is likely more qualified to teach community college anatomy and physiology than undergraduate psychology. It's a matter of qualification.

If the OP wants to scratch the teaching itch while also providing a worthwhile educational experience for his/her students, OP might consider guest lecturing on various topics in various classes. We are all qualified to lecture on a topic tied into years of work specialization or research.

I've done this and loved it. But ask me to teach a semester psychology undergraduate course? Even if it's in abnormal psychology, your average psych MA is much more qualified. I'd have ethical issues with the invitation.


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So I have a PhD in a field that is a little unusual for someone in medicine and got told in one of my interviews that if I was really interested I could get involved in teaching undergrad courses in that subject. I wasn't entirely sure how to respond, apart from if I was really interested in teaching classes in the subject I probably would have passed up med school for the exciting(-ly insecure) and impoverished world of adjuncting.

 

[WisNeuro]

the exciting(-ly insecure) and impoverished world of adjuncting.

The real question is why would anyone, psychiatrist or psychologist, want to teaching part-time as an adjunct. Unless you just really loved it for some masochostic reason. Last time I checked some of the opportunities in my area and projected out the hours involved, they all ended up being about 1/4 to 1/3 of what I make if it's broken down hourly. No thanks, I'd rather bar tend.

 

[clausewitz2]

The real question is why would anyone, psychiatrist or psychologist, want to teaching part-time as an adjunct. Unless you just really loved it for some masochostic reason. Last time I checked some of the opportunities in my area and projected out the hours involved, they all ended up being about 1/4 to 1/3 of what I make if it's broken down hourly. No thanks, I'd rather bar tend.

The problem is in many fields if you are dead set on a tenure track job, taking jobs outside of academia is frequently equivalent to forfeiting any chance at pursuing the career you spent your PhD training for.

 

[WisNeuro]

In some instances, yes. I've seen a good amount of people go back and forth from academic to clinical. Generally people who have always had a hand in the research pot in some capacity. Still, the TT isn't something I'd seriously consider. Long hours, uncertain future, not nearly enough compensation.

 

[Mad Jack]

Um, if you are a psychiatrist, perhaps you could teach...gasp....psychiatry. Every psych residency program needs faculty, right? Why would you want to spend your free time adjuncting with undergrads (most of whom are relatively unintrested in whatever you have to say) for a whopping 2 grand a semester?

Academic medicine is very different than undergraduate academics. Some might view this as a break, or a chance to influence young minds instead of preaching to the choir, or just a change of pace a couple of days per week. I'm perusing this thread because I've thought of doing similar at the local community college as a way to give back. Two of my professors in cardiopulmonary A&P were practicing pulmonologists, and another two who taught me human A&P were podiatrists when I attended the same CC back in the day, and they certainly weren't in it for the money. Yeah, most kids are just going through, but occasionally you can make a difference.

 

[Crayola227]

Um, if you are a psychiatrist, perhaps you could teach...gasp....psychiatry. Every psych residency program needs faculty, right? Why would you want to spend your free time adjuncting with undergrads (most of whom are relatively unintrested in whatever you have to say) for a whopping 2 grand a semester?

lol yes, because med students are soooo much more interested than undergrads

I never slept through more classes than I did when I was in med school

 

[thoffen]

I'd have to say that teaching to undergrads evokes an enjoyable fantasy. However, in practice, the foundation that undergrads would have to actually appreciate (rather than regurgitate) what I would be interested in teaching is nil. It's already hard enough to get residents to examine why they are doing things the way they are. You have to get so far invested in something to allow for nuance.

Take mania for instance. You need to experience it enough to really simply know what it's like. How many non-psych MDs and mental health clinicians render bipolar I diagnoses inappropriately due to insufficient experiential exposure to people who are truly manic? Cognitive knowledge just isn't enough.